Why dont more female players use the ATP forehand?

[a12345]

Due to the increasing speed of the modern game, its pretty much bread and butter for male players to use the ATP forehand due to the advantages it brings.

More spin, shorter distance in the swing so easier to time, easy access to power from the stretch shorten cycle, easier to match the height of the ball (the longer the swing the harder it is to judge), easier to control the direction of the ball (the longer the longer swing, more likely to spray left or right of target if timing is wrong) .

So why dont female players also use it at the top level? wheres the success?

Now the main argument has always been that male and female bodies are just different. Men have more muscle and strength than women so dont need the power of the larger swing. But im not sure I buy that. The ATP swing is not achieved through muscle power at all. The power is achieved through body rotation and the kinetic chain, just like the WTA swing, but in addition it takes advantage of the stretch shorten cycle to compensate for the shorter swing.

However the addition of having more spin and creating a heavy ball, as well as all the other advantages of the ATP forehand outlined above, to me would outweigh that extra power of a longer swing.

So why arent more female players using the ATP forehand?

Is it that:

a) the female body and lower muscle mass means they cant achieve the same shot effectively. ( I dont believe this - look at Henin. But then to counter argue was Henin just an outlier?)
b) the smaller muscles dont allow women to utilise the SSC as effectively, so the short swing ends up being just a weak shot (an ATP forehand without the SSC is worthless).
c) womens tennis just hasnt caught up with technique. Sometimes the easiest path to follow is the established path. It works so just keep doing what the successful people are doing. As a result it simply is not being taught to female juniors. Parents and coaches will say how do the female GS winners play? lets follow that. Ultimately you will carry the same technique as you were taught when you were young. Therefore the sample size for female ATP forehand is very small, thats why we see few GS winners.
d) something else.

If the ATP forehand is a superior technique and women can do it just as well as men, then there is a huge competitive advantage that is not being tapped for female juniors to learn now and crush the competition when theyre older.

So, if you had a young female junior just starting tennis - would you teach them the ATP forehand to give them a competitive advantage, or would you just go by the tried and trusted WTA method because there is a physical reason females, on average, cant perform it as well. So at high levels, female ATP forehand players get beaten, "naturally selected" out of the system, and few make it.

 

[Raul_SJ]

However the addition of having more spin and creating a heavy ball, as well as all the other advantages of the ATP forehand outlined above, to me would outweigh that extra power of a longer swing.

There is no extra power in a longer swing according to Brian Gordon. The ATP style produces a heavier faster ball based on proven scientific research.

As to why ATP style is not as commonly used in the WTA, the game is slower in the WTA so it is not a strict requirement; can do just as well with a WTA style swing.

I also think you need stronger wrist/forearm extensors to pull off the ATP.

 

[a12345]

There is no extra power in a longer swing according to Brian Gordon. The ATP style produces a heavier faster ball based on proven scientific research.

As to why ATP style is not as commonly used in the WTA, the game is slower in the WTA so it is not a strict requirement; can do just as well with a WTA style swing.

I also think you need stronger wrist/forearm extensors to pull off the ATP.

There is more power in a longer swing. But the ATP forehand compensates for this by using the SSC. i.e if you did a WTA forehand but the starting position was where the ATP forehand is, and you didnt do the racket lag and flip there would be weak power, even for men.

So that would bring the question - is it that females, with their smaller muscles, cant get the same SSC in their muscles?

For me im not sure why a smaller muscle couldnt utlise the SSC as well as a larger one, proportionally.

Even if the game is slower, lets just say for arguments sake the max speed of an ATP forehand and WTA is the same. Then surely the advantages of the ATP forehand like topspin and easier timing would come into place.

In other words if theres no disadvantage of using the ATP forehand and there are many advantages, it should win out in terms of "natural selection" over time.
If I took a random set of 200 girls and taught 100 the ATP style and 100 the WTA style, the ATP group should win. If the WTA style wins then theres something inherent that suits the WTA style for women.

Now of course the problem is if i take 1000 girls and train 900 of them WTA style and 100 of them ATP style due to legacy training styles of coaches, it will distort the results that show which technique is superior.

 

[ptuanminh]

The same reason rec players should not use "ATP forehand".
Rec players are slow, timing is horrible, footwork is cr*p. Female pros have better chance learning this "modern" forehand technique.

 

[travlerajm]

It seems the NextGen ATP guys are using ATP forehands and failing miserably, while the young ladies are doing just fine. hmm

 

[Raul_SJ]

There is more power in a longer swing. But the ATP forehand compensates for this by using the SSC. i.e if you did a WTA forehand but the starting position was where the ATP forehand is, and you didnt do the racket lag and flip there would be weak power, even for men.

So that would bring the question - is it that females, with their smaller muscles, cant get the same SSC in their muscles?

For me im not sure why a smaller muscle couldnt utlise the SSC as well as a larger one, proportionally.

Even if the game is slower, lets just say for arguments sake the max speed of an ATP forehand and WTA is the same. Then surely the advantages of the ATP forehand like topspin and easier timing would come into place.

In other words if theres no disadvantage of using the ATP forehand and there are many advantages, it should win out in terms of "natural selection" over time.
If I took a random set of 200 girls and taught 100 the ATP style and 100 the WTA style, the ATP group should win. If the WTA style wins then theres something inherent that suits the WTA style for women.

Now of course the problem is if i take 1000 girls and train 900 of them WTA style and 100 of them ATP style due to legacy training styles of coaches, it will distort the results that show which technique is superior.

The ATP style developed, in large part, because of the need to deal with faster incoming ATP pace. Needed a more compact swing; no time for a bigger swing.

The WTA player is not facing the same incoming pace and can do just as well with a longer swing.

I am not convinced one style is necessarily superior to the other in the context of two WTA players facing each other.

 

[Dragy]

Petra Martic
Alexandra Crunic
Ashleigh Barty, despite a bit longer backswing
Anastasia Sevastova
Polona Herzog
Magdalena Rybarikova
Daria Kasatkina
Iga Swiatek
Svetlana Kuznetsova

The list goes on and on. It all comes from coaching, not from physical restrictions.

 

[a12345]

The ATP style developed, in large part, because of the need to deal with faster incoming ATP pace. Needed a more compact swing; no time for a bigger swing.

The WTA player is not facing the same incoming pace and can do just as well with a longer swing.

I am not convinced one style is necessarily superior to the other in the context of two WTA players facing each other.

But, if you can hit the ball with the same pace and with greater topspin, as well as other advantages, the players with the ATP forehand should win out if talking about a large enough sample.

Now it could be another issue that you raise here. The lack of necessity to shorten the swing in the womens game, means that they have never fully developed the short swing /stretch shorten cycle style, that facilitates greater topspin. But for me this would then open the door for an ATP style forehand to dominate.

Madison keys said a few years ago when she changed coaches to a male coach:

Asked how her new coach, former ATP tour pro Jesse Levine, was “adjusting to women’s tennis,” Keys’ grin narrowed to a wry smirk.

“He’s been fine…so far,” she says with an ironic twinkle in her eye. “There’s been a couple of times when he hits super, super spinny, and I’m like, ‘You can’t do that. No one [on the WTA tour] hits like that. Please stop.’”

By not adding the extra topspin to their game, if they are capable of doing it, they are missing a big weapon in their arsenal.

 

[TheIntrovert]

Is it the lighter rackets? ATP players can use the weight fo the racket to help generate the lag and power, whereas the women use lighter rackets on average and have to use a longer swing path and body rotation to generate the power and weight?

 

[Dondon]

Look at all the one hit wonders
Wta style is all ostapenko dream once run

 

[Dragy]

the players with the ATP forehand should win out if talking about a large enough sample.

Man, here's your current world #1:

There're 2 issues to keep advantages of modern fh to be evident on WTA tour as well:
- Limited coaching so far, the % among current players is still very low, while better talents/athlets still win. When it is coached at least to half of female juniors, it will be more present in top 100 and likely get to major % at the top.
- Movement and getting to the ball. Males are still mostly higher, faster, getting to balls better. So more room to apply fast-prepared groundies. More clean putaway openings in WTA, in my opinion.

 

[dominikk1985]

Problem with the ATP forehand is it takes more strength to create penetrating shots. Many women with ATP forehands like errani have spinny forehands that sit up. The ones with successful ATP forehands like mauresmo, kuznetsova or stosur tend to be very strong.henin was an exception as she was more skinny but very explosive.

However many of the younger US players use a hybrid forehand. Keys, Stephens and gauff use a wta take back but a roll finish (windshield wiper) instead of a classic over the shoulder finish. Halep does that too.

The number of atp takebacks is increasing though, especially with European and eastern European girls.

Rybarikova

 

[undecided]

I think I hit WTA style and I am a guy .
I personally think the ATP style is just harder. Timing has to be a lot better as there's less time to adjust to the incoming ball in a shorter swing. In a long swing there's time to make subtle movements if you misread the incoming ball slightly.

 

[FiReFTW]

Problem with the ATP forehand is it takes more strength to create penetrating shots. Many women with ATP forehands like errani have spinny forehands that sit up. The ones with successful ATP forehands like mauresmo, kuznetsova or stosur tend to be very strong.henin was an exception as she was more skinny but very explosive.

However many of the younger US players use a hybrid forehand. Keys, Stephens and gauff use a wta take back but a roll finish (windshield wiper) instead of a classic over the shoulder finish. Halep does that too.

The number of atp takebacks is increasing though, especially with European and eastern European girls.

Rybarikova

I agree, I think you have a point.

ATP forehand gives u alot more spin, but spin takes away pace, to hit a penetrating shot you need much more rhs with a ATP forehand compared to a WTA forehand.

With the WTA forehand you can hit right through the ball flat and hit a penetrating shot.

But with the ATP forehand the release or snap or ISR/pronation whatever people call it, automatically rotate the racquet so much and add alot of brush/spin even when hitting through the ball, so you need much more RHS to hit a 80mph penetrating shot than with a WTA forehand.

 

[habssuck69]

I mean Hercog was slinging 90+mph baseline winners off her WTA forehand the other day (before she choked the match away). I think it matters less than us rec players think.

A lot of women fall in between the two extremes, too. My amateur guess is since the women's power game is at such a premium they're willing to use technique that gives them a more direct racquet path and more drive

 

[dominikk1985]

Chardy uses a hybrid forehand with laid back take back and roll finish and has one of the best forehands on the atp tour.

 

[travlerajm]

The average forehand skill level of ATP players has declined in the past decade, which, in my opinion, is the main reason that over-30 players are still dominating the tour.

I think the trend toward coaching forehands with shorter linear hitting windows led to forehands with more power and spin, but at the cost of worse accuracy.

This trend didn’t happen on the ladies tour.

 

[mcs1970]

The average forehand skill level of ATP players has declined in the past decade, which, in my opinion, is the main reason that over-30 players are still dominating the tour.

I think the trend toward coaching forehands with shorter linear hitting windows led to forehands with more power and spin, but at the cost of worse accuracy.

This trend didn’t happen on the ladies tour.

WTA doesn’t have the skill level at the top. I am a Serena fan but she is a baseline basher. So she's facing other baseline bashers now who can do the same thing. Her serve and ability to hit shots under pressure, still gives her an advantage over most of the younger gen women, but the skill levels are more or less the same.

On the men's side, the ability to play an all court game is much higher for the older generation. Even Nadal is an excellent volleyer. I don't see any issues with the FH of the younger gen. FH looks fine. It's more the fact that the younger generation seems a lot more robotic. That's why people rave about Auger-Aliassime because he seems to have the ability to play an all court game. It's not that he's doing anything special, as much as the fact that it's rare to see a young gen player who is comfortable playing an all-court game. Powerful racquets at a young age coupled with winning points due to a massive serve/massive fh and not enough attention to an all-court game, IMO are more of a factor towards most of the younger generation being less skilled, than accuracy of the modern fh.

 

[travlerajm]

WTA doesn’t have the skill level at the top. I am a Serena fan but she is a baseline basher. So she's facing other baseline bashers now who can do the same thing. Her serve and ability to hit shots under pressure, still gives her an advantage over most of the younger gen women, but the skill levels are more or less the same.

On the men's side, the ability to play an all court game is much higher for the older generation. Even Nadal is an excellent volleyer. I don't see any issues with the FH of the younger gen. FH looks fine. It's more the fact that the younger generation seems a lot more robotic. That's why people rave about Auger-Aliassime because he seems to have the ability to play an all court game. It's not that he's doing anything special, as much as the fact that it's rare to see a young gen player who is comfortable playing an all-court game. Powerful racquets at a young age coupled with winning points due to a massive serve/massive fh and not enough attention to an all-court game, IMO are more of a factor towards most of the younger generation being less skilled, than accuracy of the modern fh.

But look at the dichotomy in serve stats vs return stats for the young players!

The NextGen guys have decent serve points won percentage. But they can’t return serve.
In general, they all have forehands that work fine when the ball is coming slowly and they can take a big rip.

But none of them can hit a forehand return with their light racquets and wristy strokes.

 

[a12345]

Problem with the ATP forehand is it takes more strength to create penetrating shots. Many women with ATP forehands like errani have spinny forehands that sit up. The ones with successful ATP forehands like mauresmo, kuznetsova or stosur tend to be very strong.henin was an exception as she was more skinny but very explosive.

However many of the younger US players use a hybrid forehand. Keys, Stephens and gauff use a wta take back but a roll finish (windshield wiper) instead of a classic over the shoulder finish. Halep does that too.

The number of atp takebacks is increasing though, especially with European and eastern European girls.

Rybarikova

This would mean that it is a strength issue, but many of the top players with ATP forehands Djokovic, Federer, Murray, Nishikori,Anderson, Zverev etc.. are all quite skinny guys. Their power comes from their body, just like most players.

But again this would fall back to - if its not about strength, why cant female players get significant penetration with their topspin shots. It would mean that they are unable to utilize their stretch shorten cycle like the men can which helps them get penetration. Im not convinced on this basis.

 

[a12345]

Man, here's your current world #1:

There're 2 issues to keep advantages of modern fh to be evident on WTA tour as well:
- Limited coaching so far, the % among current players is still very low, while better talents/athlets still win. When it is coached at least to half of female juniors, it will be more present in top 100 and likely get to major % at the top.
- Movement and getting to the ball. Males are still mostly higher, faster, getting to balls better. So more room to apply fast-prepared groundies. More clean putaway openings in WTA, in my opinion.

My leaning is towards just that - that the womens game has not caught up in terms of technique and training. As a result there is a smaller sample size of female players using the ATP forehand.

Whilst their movement is slower, so are their shots. This should even out, after all its women vs women.

 

[dominikk1985]

Don't underestimate how strong players like fed and novak are. They aren't huge but they are a lot stronger than even the strongest wta players.

I don't think womens ssc works differently from men's ssc.

 

[dominikk1985]

My leaning is towards just that - that the womens game has not caught up in terms of technique and training. As a result there is a smaller sample size of female players using the ATP forehand.

Whilst their movement is slower, so are their shots. This should even out, after all its women vs women.

I don't think so. Women are trained by the same coaches and there have been dozens of atp forehand girls for about 15 years now, some of them with great technique.

If it was superior it would have shown alteady.

 

[a12345]

I think I hit WTA style and I am a guy .
I personally think the ATP style is just harder. Timing has to be a lot better as there's less time to adjust to the incoming ball in a shorter swing. In a long swing there's time to make subtle movements if you misread the incoming ball slightly.

I think the opposite is true, and ive used both styles. The ATP forehand is much much easier. Its short, compact - less things go wrong.

If I go back to my old traditional WTA forehand now, I think, i cant believe how long it takes the swing to hit the ball, it seems like forever, and that if I dont get the timing right so many things can go wrong. The longer swing makes it hard to adjust because once youre committed your cant change course. Whereas with the ATP , its short and fast. I dont need to change course because I make a late decision every time.

Also to go against this, kids can pick up the ATP forehand quite easily, boy or girl. I see junior boys using it all the time. I see some junior girls use it but fewer.

 

[a12345]

I don't think so. Women are trained by the same coaches and there have been dozens of atp forehand girls for about 15 years now, some of them with great technique.

If it was superior it would have shown alteady.

Or on the flip side, there could be a delay in terms of seeing it come through because of the tendancy to stick with what works from coaches. We might see a host of female players winning with the ATP style in future, in which case if you started teaching kids the WTA style still, youve missed the boat and they will be at a disadvantage in 10 years time.

Barty for example at times hits with ATP style, she mixes both. Could we see the young generation start to come through.

Let me ask you, and everyone else, this - if you had skin in the game, e.g you were going to spend big money developing the game of your daughter, starting from scratch, would you want them learning the WTA style or ATP style so that by the time theyre 18 they are fully competitive with that style?

 

[jga111]

Loads of women use the ATP forehand

 

[Dartagnan64]

Do coaches really worry about SSC and all the biomechanics stuff? Or do they just ask kids to swing hard at the all and the ones with enough coordination to create SSC and deliver pace and topspin get chosen to move forward in tennis schools. Then as they enter teens they start honing technique at which point its probably hard for many to change their muscle memory.

It would seem the fact that there are as many different FH's on tour as there are players that "ultimate biomechanics technique" is not taught to small children.

But I'm not a kids coach or a parent of a junior tennis player so I'm not sure where the issue lies. It is funny that serving technique tends to be far more cookie cutter than FH technique. I think its because serves get worked on later when kids are more approachable about finer details. Every kid starts tennis hitting FH's.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

The “ATP forehand” technique is not uncommon on the WTA tour. It’s just not necessary, so not everyone does it. Not to mention, the term “ATP forehand” was invented on YouTube and it makes most actual tennis coaches throw up in their mouth a little bit. But I digress. Overall, the “ATP forehand” may not even be necessary on the ATP tour. Almost every ATP player not named Nadal, Djokovic, Thiem, or Federer struggles with accuracy on the forehand side. GOAT or not, a 37 year old should not be out there hitting the best forehand in the game. It’s a big letdown to see the younger guys with “ATP forehands” that miss constantly.

 

[travlerajm]

The “ATP forehand” technique is not uncommon on the WTA tour. It’s just not necessary, so not everyone does it. Not to mention, the term “ATP forehand” was invented on YouTube and it makes most actual tennis coaches throw up in their mouth a little bit. But I digress. Overall, the “ATP forehand” may not even be necessary on the ATP tour. Almost every ATP player not named Nadal, Djokovic, Thiem, or Federer struggles with accuracy on the forehand side. GOAT or not, a 37 year old should not be out there hitting the best forehand in the game. It’s a big letdown to see the younger guys with “ATP forehands” that miss constantly.

This. It seemed like 20 years ago there were more players with ‘tight’ form on the forehand.

Players like Agassi, Courier, Lendl, Fereira, Chang, Rios. What happened? Now we have guys at the top of the game slapping at the ball - no wonder they don’t displace the old guard.

 

[a12345]

The “ATP forehand” technique is not uncommon on the WTA tour. It’s just not necessary, so not everyone does it. Not to mention, the term “ATP forehand” was invented on YouTube and it makes most actual tennis coaches throw up in their mouth a little bit. But I digress. Overall, the “ATP forehand” may not even be necessary on the ATP tour. Almost every ATP player not named Nadal, Djokovic, Thiem, or Federer struggles with accuracy on the forehand side. GOAT or not, a 37 year old should not be out there hitting the best forehand in the game. It’s a big letdown to see the younger guys with “ATP forehands” that miss constantly.

This would be completely in opposition to what an atp forehand brings.

The higher topspin and net clearance as well as ability to bring the ball down back into the court facilitates in greater safety not less. And the idea that the atp forehand is just too hard to use except for fed and djokovic is crazy.

The atp forehand is a simpler easier shot to hit.

And why would a powerful flat shot result in less errors?

 

[a12345]

Interestingly Serena's coach back in 2014 was interviewed and:

"Patrick Mouratoglou rated Serbia's Ana Ivanovic, Australia's Samantha Stosur, and Russia's Svetlana Kuznetsova as the players with best forehands on the women's side; while rated Serena first in the best backhand."

Stosur and Kuznetsova used the atp forehand.

 

[travlerajm]

This would be completely in opposition to what an atp forehand brings.

The higher topspin and net clearance as well as ability to bring the ball down back into the court facilitates in greater safety not less. And the idea that the atp forehand is just too hard to use except for fed and djokovic is crazy.
The atp forehand is a simpler easier shot to hit.

And why would a powerful flat shot result in less errors?

A spinnier shot is safer when the incoming ball is slow, but when the ball is coming in fast, as it does for every return of serve, a flatter swingpath is superior for avoiding errors.

 

[a12345]

A spinnier shot is safer when the incoming ball is slow, but when the ball is coming in fast, as it does for every return of serve, a flatter swingpath is superior for avoiding errors.

You don't use a spinny atp forehand for a return of serve. And for normal shots the atp forehand follows a linear swing path for most of its movement so that wouldn't make any sense.

 

[a12345]

In addition I would just add you can still flatten out your shot in an atp forehand because you can control independently the vertical acceleration of the racket head and apply as much or little of it as you want.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I think I hit WTA style and I am a guy .
I personally think the ATP style is just harder. Timing has to be a lot better as there's less time to adjust to the incoming ball in a shorter swing. In a long swing there's time to make subtle movements if you misread the incoming ball slightly.

The same reason rec players should not use "ATP forehand".
Rec players are slow, timing is horrible, footwork is cr*p. Female pros have better chance learning this "modern" forehand technique.

Timing is easier with a more compact backswing, not more difficult. Think about it. With a huge WTA backswing (way behind the coronal plane), it takes longer and is trickier to get the racket to a proper contact point at the right time. Players are often too late or too early with that longer backswing position. Should be less of an issue with a more compact stroke.

 

[Dragy]

Almost every ATP player not named Nadal, Djokovic, Thiem, or Federer struggles with accuracy on the forehand side. GOAT or not, a 37 year old should not be out there hitting the best forehand in the game. It’s a big letdown to see the younger guys with “ATP forehands” that miss constantly.

This is just plain wrong.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@a12345

Problem with the ATP forehand is it takes more strength to create penetrating shots. Many women with ATP forehands like errani have spinny forehands that sit up. The ones with successful ATP forehands like mauresmo, kuznetsova or stosur tend to be very strong.henin was an exception as she was more skinny but very explosive.

Are you guys (both) conflating terms? Note that strength and power (explosiveness or speed strength) are different attributes. While skinny players, like Roger and Novak, may possess a moderate amount of strength, they bring to bear a considerable amount of power in their strokes. More fast-twitch musculature and an efficient use of the KC allows them to create powerful strokes. Justine Henin undoubtedly employed quite a bit of power in her game despite her slight stature.

It might be that a preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fibers and an optimal KC might allow players to maximize the SSC. Players with less type 11x (and maybe type 11a) fibers might not be able to use the SSC as effectively. This might be why many top WTA players often employ different FH mechanics than most ATP players.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The “ATP forehand” technique is not uncommon on the WTA tour. It’s just not necessary, so not everyone does it. Not to mention, the term “ATP forehand” was invented on YouTube and it makes most actual tennis coaches throw up in their mouth a little bit. But I digress. Overall, the “ATP forehand” may not even be necessary on the ATP tour. Almost every ATP player not named Nadal, Djokovic, Thiem, or Federer struggles with accuracy on the forehand side. GOAT or not, a 37 year old should not be out there hitting the best forehand in the game. It’s a big letdown to see the younger guys with “ATP forehands” that miss constantly.

Not invented by YouTube. I recall the ATP/WTA forehand taxonomy being used by Christophe Delavaut some 6-7 years ago (maybe more). Rick Macci and quite a few other respected coaches have used this terminology quite a bit in the past few years. I believe that this terminology was derived from work of experts like Brian Gordon (not YT).

Players like Kyrgios and Sock have taken the modern FH to a different place with added flourish = a higher level of complexity. Players who try to emulate these added flourishes might experience less consistency. Let's not confuse these implementations, often an effort to hit bigger FHs, as representative of the ATP forehand.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Petra Martic
Alexandra Crunic
Ashleigh Barty, despite a bit longer backswing
Anastasia Sevastova
Polona Herzog
Magdalena Rybarikova
Daria Kasatkina
Iga Swiatek
Svetlana Kuznetsova

The list goes on and on. It all comes from coaching, not from physical restrictions.

Let's not forget Justine Henin and Christina McHale.

Even players with WTA forehands, like Serena W and Simona Halep, have reduced their backswings somewhat in recent years.

 

[a12345]

@a12345

Are you guys (both) conflating terms? Note that strength and power (explosiveness or speed strength) are different attributes. While skinny players, like Roger and Novak, may possess a moderate amount of strength, they bring to bear a considerable amount of power in their strokes. More fast-twitch musculature and an efficient use of the KC allows them to create powerful strokes. Justine Henin undoubtedly employed quite a bit of power in her game despite her slight stature.

It might be that a preponderance of fast-twitch muscle fibers and an optimal KC might allow players to maximize the SSC. Players with less type 11x (and maybe type 11a) fibers might not be able to use the SSC as effectively. This might be why many top WTA players often employ different FH mechanics than most ATP players.

It could be something like this and its worth looking into.

However, you can also develop fast twitch muscles. Some people are born with it more than others, and males will have it more than females, but you can also train it to improve it. Any female playing power sports will have them and developed them in their respective sports.

So although females will have less, if females in general have less, and then you train and develop yours, it will give you a competitive advantage over other females in different areas.

The further question is, could females train their explosive power and fast twitch muscles enough, to sufficiently utilise their SSC and provide the power they need.

Again it would need to be a large random sample and not just cherry picking developing women who already have good fast twitch muscles. Can the average girl develop it enough so that it isnt a deficiency vs someone who takes that long powerful WTA swing?

 

[dominikk1985]

Many southern European girls use an ATP style

Suarez Navarro

Errani

Vinci

Schiavone

Medina garrigues

 

[FiReFTW]

@a12345 has some good points in this thread

 

[Dragy]

Even players with WTA forehands, like Serena W and Simona Halep, had reduced their backswings in recent years.

There’re elements which persist in various forehands, and there’s a blend of elements which we call “Modern/ATP forehand”. For example, WW racquet rotation into contact is applied by most current pros, male or female. Compact backswings are more present then a decade ago, and they’ve been used situationally forever. But none of those ensures full-power stroke without efficient acceleration phase.

 

[a12345]

Many southern European girls use an ATP style

Suarez Navarro

Errani

Vinci

Schiavone

Medina garrigues

The one to look out for is Amanda Anisimova of the USA.

Currently ranked 26, got to the semi finals of this years French open beating Halep in the 1/4's, only 17 years old.

I wonder if we will start to see more ATP forehands coming through.

 

[ByeByePoly]

IMO

This:

is infinitely more difficult to time than this:

The late big arm rolling and unrolling is always going to be harder to time than a longer swing. Also ... if you measured the full swing path by the racquet tip instead of the hand ... not sure the ATP is even shorter.

I know I promised no more golf analogy ... but it would be like saying the following is easier to time for the rec golfer:

I know brother @J011yroger says it's the cr@p legacy FHs that make it hard to learn the ATP FH ... and it would be easy/easier to learn from scratch. Probably ... never doubt the Jolly ... but I would say the important bit would be the repeatable rec FH they brought to matches. For example ... go show any of my past 4.5 tournament opponents, or USTA team members, or Wed night doubles league players that they would have been better rec players if they had learned to do Djokovic pic #2 above ... and you better not be telling them that during indoor court time. You would be run off with offensive ridicule and laughter. Even better ... go try and sell Djoker pic #2 to any of my past wife's 3.5 USTA team mates ... who 90% had never made a ball spin on purpose in their tennis career.

OK ... I kid a little ... if I was starting over as a 4.5 25 year old tournament singles player (baseliner) ... I would go for the ATP. Also ... even without the big arm rolling/lag ... I think many would benefit from a healthy sized backswing, but keep it on the hitting side of the body. To me ... that is good middle ground ... shortened the swing, but still providing the repeatable rec FH with a decent size backswing. JMO.

One other thing on the "shorter reaction time. I'm glad @SystemicAnomaly is in the house ... because we have talked about how we process an incoming ball, and when our "moment of commitment/swing" is.

To my surprise, I found out my moment of "swing/go" calculation is at the top of the backswing ... not dropping/looping, and not at the slot (Djokcer pic #2). Maybe the pros are good enough for later "go" ... certainly looks like Fed adjusts "go" on the drop on some shots. But for me ... no chance I could even delay my "go/swing" committed point to the drop. I've hit a lot of tennis balls ... so I'm going to guess most here would find out something similar if they go check where they commit on the tennis court. And by commit ... I mean the calculations were done ... you are swinging to hit the ball ... unlikely to have much deviation from the calculated flight path. Si if that's typical for a rec player ... it's a false analogy to look at that slot position, and say that is where your swing started from, so you have a shorter swing than say a WTA swing. The start of your rec swing probably started before Djoker pic #1 above. If you are able to delay it to the PTD drop ... than good for you, and you have a real case of "shortened swing/reaction" time ... but still stuck with the late big arm rolling.


The WTA will probably convert to more ATP FHs when they get one of these:

 

[FiReFTW]

IMO

This:

is infinitely more difficult to time than this:

The late big arm rolling and unrolling is always going to be harder to time than a longer swing. Also ... if you measured the full swing path by the racquet tip instead of the hand ... not sure the ATP is even shorter.

I know I promised no more golf analogy ... but it would be like saying the following is easier to time for the rec golfer:

I know brother @J011yroger says it's the cr@p legacy FHs that make it hard to learn the ATP FH ... and it would be easy/easier to learn from scratch. Probably ... never doubt the Jolly ... but I would say the important bit would be the repeatable rec FH they brought to matches. For example ... go show any of my past 4.5 tournament opponents, or USTA team members, or Wed night doubles league players that they would have been better rec players if they had learned to do Djokovic pic #2 above ... and you better not be telling them that during indoor court time. You would be run off with offensive ridicule and laughter. Even better ... go try and sell Djoker pic #2 to any of my past wife's 3.5 USTA team mates ... who 90% had never made a ball spin on purpose in their tennis career.

OK ... I kid a little ... if I was starting over as a 4.5 25 year old tournament singles player (baseliner) ... I would go for the ATP. Also ... even without the big arm rolling/lag ... I think many would benefit from a healthy sized backswing, but keep it on the hitting side of the body. To me ... that is good middle ground ... shortened the swing, but still providing the repeatable rec FH with a decent size backswing. JMO.

One other thing on the "shorter reaction time. I'm glad @SystemicAnomaly is in the house ... because we have talked about how we process an incoming ball, and when our "moment of commitment/swing" is.

To my surprise, I found out my moment of "swing/go" calculation is at the top of the backswing ... not dropping/looping, and not at the slot (Djokcer pic #2). Maybe the pros are good enough for later "go" ... certainly looks like Fed adjusts "go" on the drop on some shots. But for me ... no chance I could even delay my "go/swing" committed point to the drop. I've hit a lot of tennis balls ... so I'm going to guess most here would find out something similar if they go check where they commit on the tennis court. And by commit ... I mean the calculations were done ... you are swinging to hit the ball ... unlikely to have much deviation from the calculated flight path. Si if that's typical for a rec player ... it's a false analogy to look at that slot position, and say that is where your swing started from, so you have a shorter swing than say a WTA swing. The start of your rec swing probably started before Djoker pic #1 above. If you are able to delay it to the PTD drop ... than good for you, and you have a real case of "shortened swing/reaction" time ... but still stuck with the late big arm rolling.


The WTA will probably convert to more ATP FHs when they get one of these:

Dont you have anything else to do than write super long posts, like play tennis

 

[Raul_SJ]

IMO
This:
is infinitely more difficult to time than this:

I see nice clean contact here.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Ughhh, curse the coaches and YT for coining the ATP WTA forehand BS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ByeByePoly]

Dont you have anything else to do than write super long posts, like play tennis

That was short ... just big pics.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I see nice clean contact here.

Clean court anyway.