In what timeframe the current serve forms/techniques will be challenged by alternatives?

  • Never

    Votes: 10 62.5%
  • 20 years

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 10 years

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • 5 years

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • 1 year

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • Total voters
    16

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
I did. Its a conti. So a screenshot.
Looks conti to me as well he just starts with cocked wrist.
Becker had more Eastern FH grip hence his motion.
BTW this is not a good top level serve in my book he has an abbreviated loop reducing his acceleration. I'd guess he had timing issues in past so abbreviated his serve.. Wouldn't surprise me if his coach starts lengthing and slowing his initial service action down to achieve higher and more consistent serve.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Often when I'm late for work I'm speeding a little bit. But you won't see my posts in racing forums claiming currently used racing & braking lines are incorrect - wrong car, different circumstances, lack of experience etc.
But certainly after 4 years of implementing your nee approach you are getting to work on time more often??
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
It's continental. :confused:
This is a clear image
DSC_3347_LI.jpg
 

KG32

Rookie
But certainly after 4 years of implementing your nee approach you are getting to work on time more often??

Well, after 4 years I might gain about 10 seconds if the street was empty or rather I'd be 10 minutes slower, because I'd start to drift which only feels faster or "cooler" but in reality is 10x slower. Also I'd wreck my car a couple of times in the process and look like an idiot. On the other hand, it's enough to get up a bit earlier or spend less time in the bathroom in the morning... But seems like an average TTW poster would ignore such an advice and start a thread about the best airbags because he crashes 2x a week :)
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Watch 0:32-0:34. Do you think it's still continental?
Yes. Right at 32 when he is beginning its clear. He just has the racquet pointing down and has his wrist all weird. If he pointed the racquet up like most servers it would look like most every other continental server. But his wrist angle makes it difficult to see. Bet that is what is confusing you
 
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oserver

Professional
Yes. Right at 32 when he is beginning its clear. He just has the racquet pointing down and has his wrist all weird. If he pointed the racquet up like most servers it would look like most every other continental server. But his wrist angle makes it difficult to see. Bet that is what is confusing you
Do you know how to identified the grip? Why you talk about the wrist?
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Do you know how to identified the grip? Why you talk about the wrist?
Yes. I mention the wrist because normally most servers start with the racquet pointed up:
13826686_1.jpg


Tiafoe starts with it facing down with his wrist angled forward and from the back angle I thought that wrist bend was messing you up.

Anyhow here is a better image. Index knuckle is clearly on bevel 2 not 3 as it would need to be for an EFH grip:
32410800686_e32e3dfcae_b.jpg

My point to about the wrist is that if he raised the racquet it would look like Sampras and other servers who use a continental.
 

oserver

Professional
Now you are talking about another thing that has nothing to do with the grip.

Do you know how to identified the grip?
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
As I explained the Western fh is also an eastern bh grip. Pretty sad you didnt get stretchy man’s joke:

Hey Gary you are on a long streak of mis understanding. Did you see the post I was responding to? Stretchy man was talking about applying the serve to the forehand. He was not serious and was just making fun of your forehand serve mantra. It was a joke. If you look at that jack sock pict you can see its an eastern bh. Sure when hitting a fh he hits the other side of the string from that pict. If you would get out of the “Hit the ball with one side on the fh and the other side of the stringbed “ myth you would see that the western Fh grip is the same as the EBh grip when flipped and conctact is made with the SAME SIDE of the stringbed.

If you hold out a western fh grip at contact and then do some Internal shoulder rotation so the racquet is now on the left side of the body with the same side of the stringbed facing the net you are now hitting an eastern bh grip. Sw fh is a SW bh, etc.

Maybe you should get some advanced analysis skills and stop thinking so linearly about the grips...”
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Said too much already. Western forehand grip is #5 grip and is not a "mild" eastern backhand grip (#1 grip).
You do realize that bevel one and 5 get swapped when you flip the racquet. They are opposite bevels so on the fh the knuckle is on #5 and when you turn your arm to put the racquet on the bh side the same knuckle is now on #1. Its the same grip. No changinging grips but keeping the same side of the stringbed toward the ball. Did you watch the Almagro vid?

For being a revolutionary you sure are stifled by the Myth of Changing grips.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Did you forget the Heel Pad?

Heel Pad location is the one thing that alter the particular grip much more than the index finger variations.

http://www.busy-tennis-players.com/tennis-grips.html

No its obvious and no need to mention heel pad. Its clear the heel pad is on the same bevel as index knuckle so its not necessary to mention heel pad specifically in this example since anything said about the index knuckle applies to the heel pad

Your own link shows heel pad on the same bevel as the index knuckle for the western fh and the eastern bh grip...

The main concept is that grips described as fh grips have corresponding bh grips and one can describe the other.
 

oserver

Professional
No its obvious and no need to mention heel pad. Its clear the heel pad is on the same bevel as index knuckle so its not necessary to mention heel pad specifically in this example since anything said about the index knuckle applies to the heel pad

Your own link shows heel pad on the same bevel as the index knuckle for the western fh and the eastern bh grip...

The main concept is that grips described as fh grips have corresponding bh grips and one can describe the other.

That shows that you don't have any teaching experiences. Grip variations are most effected by the position of the heel pad, not whether the index finger is extended or not. Many player's grip does not have identical heel pad/index knuckle positions (on the opposite side of the handle).

Are you still insisting to describe a forehand grip using a backhand grip to you students (if someone ask you to teach) ?
 
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KG32

Rookie
God, same old song and dance..

A guy who just sucks at tennis pops up and says he's got a revolutionary system and he's analyzing inertial vectors on the upper-right corner of someone's heel pad to prove that rising air induced by sun heat makes the wrist warmer and therefore if you don't close your left nostril and adjust your MGR/I, you're just ignorant, because the diameter of your sock determines how well you play.

Dude, you posted your own groundstrokes on your YT channel, how about you analyze your own game before you tell others what to do? Ever heard of Dunning–Kruger effect?
 

oserver

Professional
God, same old song and dance..

A guy who just sucks at tennis pops up and says he's got a revolutionary system and he's analyzing inertial vectors on the upper-right corner of someone's heel pad to prove that rising air induced by sun heat makes the wrist warmer and therefore if you don't close your left nostril and adjust your MGR/I, you're just ignorant, because the diameter of your sock determines how well you play.

Dude, you posted your own groundstrokes on your YT channel, how about you analyze your own game before you tell others what to do? Ever heard of Dunning–Kruger effect?
You never thought the forehand ways can all be applied to the serve, too much a shocking thing to hear?!
 

KG32

Rookie
You never thought the forehand ways can all be applied to the serve, too much a shocking thing to hear?!

You never thought you don’t have enough skill and knowledge to even hit a decent forehand or serve in the first place, let alone “apply forehand ways to serve”?
Is that too much a shocking thing to hear?
 

oserver

Professional
You never thought you don’t have enough skill and knowledge to even hit a decent forehand or serve in the first place, let alone “apply forehand ways to serve”?
Is that too much a shocking thing to hear?

Sound (and pictured) like a elite coach! I'm willing to learn from you to get 'enough skill and knowledge'. Can you post a few view teaching videos to show?
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
That shows that you don't have any teaching experiences. Grip variations are most effected by the position of the heel pad, not whether the index finger is extended or not. Many player's grip does not have identical heel pad/index knuckle positions (on the opposite side of the handle).

No it doesnt. I have enough coaching experience to know not to teach people the waiters tray serve! And you either didnt understand what I wrote or dont understand how grips work. Its not just the index finger extending. Its the whole hand spreading out with a pistol grip. What you are missing is that that spreading of the fingers moves the heel pad. Any talk of an index knuckle location and the difference between hammer and pistol implies a heelpad position. Thats why good coaches focus on the index knuckle and NOT the heelpad. Here is a great vid that says just that at around 1:20 or so:


Are you still insisting to describe a forehand grip using a backhand grip to you students (if someone ask you to teach) ?

Sure especially if they want a one handed bh and I think they can hit with the same grip as their fh. And its not just me. Refering to the bh grip by way of the fh grip is actually a PRO tip for finding the eastern and sw bh grips on this site:

http://www.tennisnation.com/lessons-classes/ultimate-tennis-grip-system-guide/

Its best at this point not to critize posters coaching experience since yours is sketchy on the basics.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
If I don't mention heel pad, you'll just stretching out the index finger to vary your grip, totally ignorant about more important way to adjust the grip even the index knuckle is staying at the same place:(.
As I stated in that example the difference between pistol and hammer is more than stretching out the index finger. The whole hand moves and so does the heel pad. The heel pad location is implied and is why its rarely mentioned. And why Florian specifically says the heel pad doesnt matter- if you get the index knuckle right in that vid I showed.

Heel pad is just not as important as the index knuckle.

No mention of the heelpad:
http://mountainghosttennis.com/tennisgrips.html

Mentioned once but never to define a grip. Because he specifies a pistol grip the heel pad location is a given:
https://youtu.be/cJCyMldkGM8

This one explains the heelpad position and even gives an example where the heel pad is different from text book but uses the base knuckle always to define the grip. Never the heelpad:

https://youtu.be/hDwDtIta86o

And this one you apparently didn't watch or didnt understand where he says the index knuckle is the most important and you dont have to worry about the heelpad:

https://youtu.be/eRCWkQfPGvg
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Serve speed in Sampras day was measured at the net.

Now it is measured at contact.

So, Sampras 121 mph in 1998 > Nadal 121 mph in 2018, for example...

You should probably add 15-20 mph or so to Sampras measured serve speeds to compare to modern speeds.
This is complete bollocks. Serve speeds were always measured at contact:
I've now come across an article that shows speed-guns tests back in 1999, on Sampras' 1st serves at point of where ball leaves racquet strings and also where ball leaves ground after impact:
'Down-the-T' serve:
Speed after being hit: 126mph
Speed before hitting court: 89mph
Speed after hitting court: 67mph
Speed at returner's baseline: 58mph

'Wide' serve:
Speed after being hit: 115mph
Speed before hitting court: 84mph
Speed after hitting court: 62mph
Speed at returner's baseline: 52mph

I also know what my eyes saw. There's no way Pete was hitting 135+ on the regular
 
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jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
This is complete bollocks. Serve speeds were always measured at contact:


I also know what my eyes saw. There's no way Pete was hitting 135+ on the regular
Here's further proof:

Sampras hits a 122 mph serve at 4:12 at the 1996 USO:

Federer hits a 122 mph serve at 0:11 at the 2018 USO:

Counting the frames, we get 12 frames at 30 fps for Sampras and 24 frames at 60 fps for Federer. Both serves travel roughly the same distance, about 60 ft. No real change here.

You can also plug these numbers here into this serve speed calculator and you'll get 121 mph.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
On topic, I can't believe the OP is still going on with this crap

So what if this serve works at 4.0? A lot of crap works at 4.0.

Let me know when a player who is actually good (ie: men's 5.5+ or UTR > 11) does it
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
On topic, I can't believe the OP is still going on with this crap

So what if this serve works at 4.0? A lot of crap works at 4.0.

Let me know when a player who is actually good (ie: men's 5.5+ or UTR > 11) does it
Its even worse because he is just making up stuff up now.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
True. It seems like he is getting desperate. He should challenge 2hfh guy from Poland in a tennis match. But Greg Diamond would wreck him. Still would be great matchup. 360 spin pancakes against shovel fhs.
Yep. Would be a popcorn worthy match. But maybe I should start my 2 handed serve thread and blow up the interwebs
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
2 handed serve wouldn't really raise any eyebrows on this forum. You can do better than that!
Fwiw I already have the future of tennis serves and used to hit that serve 20 plus years ago. I should do a thread.
 

KG32

Rookie
Fwiw I already have the future of tennis serves and used to hit that serve 20 plus years ago. I should do a thread.

Sorry, you're only allowed to do a thread if you just started playing tennis (or you've been playing for 30+ years but you still suck miserably and you couldn't tell apart a tennis racquet from a yogurt) and you just "invented" something that you believe would end tennis as we know it.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Sticky this please mods.
Sorry, you're only allowed to do a thread if you just started playing tennis (or you've been playing for 30+ years but you still suck miserably and you couldn't tell apart a tennis racquet from a yogurt) and you just "invented" something that you believe would end tennis as we know it.
 

oserver

Professional
Haha, busy with other stuff and almost forget to check back here. Interesting video, right? Why turn 360 degree like me? This shows the power of unconstrained followthrough.

Anyone knows why Thiem turns back pretty slowly? This slowness makes the whole thing not practical in the match. The solution: open stance, open grip will help too to let this kind of serve be used in the match. You need open stance to have the torque to finish the turn quickly.

A 7.0 mimic a 4.0 move? The rating doesn't matter, the openness does!:)
 

BetaServe

Professional
Anyone knows why Thiem turns back pretty slowly? This slowness makes the whole thing not practical in the match. The solution: open stance, open grip will help too to let this kind of serve be used in the match. You need open stance to have the torque to finish the turn quickly.

It makes perfect sense to me.
 
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oserver

Professional
It makes perfect sense to me.

Things have been opened little by little. First, the semi-open and open stance serve by elite players, and loosened continental grip too. Now the rotational serve like we see in this video. My prediction is that the half-hearted will gradually go full hearted. The tennis 3C to 3O serve journey will speed up from now on.

In what timeframe the current serve forms/techniques will be challenged by alternatives?
The survey question on top of this page so far is 8 (current serve forms and techniques will never change) to 4 (will change in 1 to 20 years) -

This ratio will change too. we just need some patient to see. The jenie is out o the bottle more than 4 years ago. Just let the butterfly wings to wave...
 

BlueB

Legend
Anyone knows why Thiem turns back pretty slowly? This slowness makes the whole thing not practical in the match. The solution: open stance, open grip will help too to let this kind of serve be used in the match. You need open stance to have the torque to finish the turn quickly.
It makes perfect sense to me.
Seems like you are talking to yourself, now?

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