Why has Djokovic struggled more with Wawrinka than Fed has?

#1
What is it about Stan's game that bothers Djokovic and why don't these same things pose problems for Federer?

Does Fed have a psychological edge over his countryman that Djokovic lacks? Or is there something about Stan's game that presents problems to Djokovic that nobody else can (I mean before his recent downfall)?
 
#2
Matchups and surfaces is my guess. Feds game is all about taking time away from his opponent, so he'll rush Stan whenever he has the opportunity to do so, be it coming to the net for example. With Nole, he enjoys rhythm, something that Stan can feast upon. If you look at their AO encounters, the surface gives Stan more time to prepare both his forehand and backhand, the same way if you look at another slow(er) court, such as clay, when Stan faced Fed at RG he beat him in straights (if I can remember) because the surface didn't allow Fed to play his game and rush Stan. Of course, with Federer vs Wawrinka you also have the bond between the two and respect, so as to how much that plays a factor that's up to you to decide.

Just my 2 cents, maybe someone else can chime in.

:)
 
#5
Wawrinka produced tennis that Djokovic never ever matched, he is simply the better player.



On a serious note now, Federer just takes time away from the opponents, he always wants to attack, dictate and ask questions in the match. That's why he has done better against Stan, who really needs rhythm, and slightly better against the field in general. Not only does Djokovic not have an approach like that (which I usually don't mind as his own is awesome and has done wonders as well), but in some matches against Wawrinka he has had a very disgusting, passive one.
 
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#6
Fed will play high percentage too often. So he'll end up having to play defense and hit amazing defensive shots.

Stan will try to hit winners or offensive shots from defensive positions not once not twice but three times in a row and it takes Nole out of his rhythm.
 
#13
Matchups and surfaces is my guess. Feds game is all about taking time away from his opponent, so he'll rush Stan whenever he has the opportunity to do so, be it coming to the net for example. With Nole, he enjoys rhythm, something that Stan can feast upon. If you look at their AO encounters, the surface gives Stan more time to prepare both his forehand and backhand, the same way if you look at another slow(er) court, such as clay, when Stan faced Fed at RG he beat him in straights (if I can remember) because the surface didn't allow Fed to play his game and rush Stan. Of course, with Federer vs Wawrinka you also have the bond between the two and respect, so as to how much that plays a factor that's up to you to decide.

Just my 2 cents, maybe someone else can chime in.

:)
Spot on. I would also add that the mental edge seems to be more in Fed's corner than Novak's, meaning that even if Stan pushes Fed the clutch moments they're probably not go his way
 
#14
Different match-ups. Wawrinka hates Federer's style, but thoroughly enjoys Djokovic's.

Federer has handled Wawrinka better than Djokovic, just like Djokovic has handled Nadal better than Federer.

Tennis is a game of match-ups and it's a true thing, unlike what some posters might tell you.
Totally on point!
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
#17
What were their records against Stan before Fed ljubed up, and before Djokovic contracted the the Pepe disease? These things have to be taken into account.
 
V

VexlanderPrime

Guest
#18
What is it about Stan's game that bothers Djokovic and why don't these same things pose problems for Federer?

Does Fed have a psychological edge over his countryman that Djokovic lacks? Or is there something about Stan's game that presents problems to Djokovic that nobody else can (I mean before his recent downfall)?
This won't be a popular answer perhaps but its the truth if you look at thier matches. Djoker approaches his matches in one of 2 modes:

1) Default Mode: I can beat this guy by playing safe tennis, trying to dictate points whenever I can, but playing defense when I can't and letting the other guy hit UEs. He uses this strategy on anyone not named Rafa or Roger. Occasionally he employs it against Fed as well.

2) Balls-Out Gladiator Mode: He brings this game against Rafa (and sometimes Fed) because he usually can't beat Rafa playing in Default Mode. Rafa will grind with him til the cows come home and then mix in FH winners. Its too much for default mode.

He approached the Stan finals at RG'15 and USO'16 in Default Mode and Stan came out blazing, outperforming his normal level. Djoker's default can't beat epic offense. Worse, when he enters a match in one mindset, he seems loathe to switch to the other approach. Default mode actually works well against Stan, just not when Stanimal shows up to play.
 
#23
Could Fed emulate Wawrinka's style for his next big encounter with Nole? Or does Wawrinka have shots that Fed simply can't reproduce?
To the first question: no, he could not. Federer might beat Djokovic next time they play but not if he tries to play in the way Wawrinka does.

To the second question: Wawrinka is much stronger physically than Federer.
 
F

Fedfan34

Guest
#25
To the first question: no, he could not. Federer might beat Djokovic next time they play but not if he tries to play in the way Wawrinka does.

To the second question: Wawrinka is much stronger physically than Federer.
My feeling as well. Wawrinka's Thu'um is Unrelenting Force, Federer's is Disarm.
 

Mr Feeny

Hall of Fame
#28
You forgot Djokovic - Federer 3-0 ;)
As it turns out, Nole has the best win/loss in this triumvirate. Matchups...

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The grandpa-Djokovic matchup isn't what we're discussing.

It's the difference in how Federer and Djokovic approach Wawrinka and what makes one more successful than the other.
A lot of good replies in this thread, and you just posted the worst ones back to back derailing the thread. Congratulations.
 

mike danny

Talk Tennis Guru
#29
The grandpa-Djokovic matchup isn't what we're discussing.

It's the difference in how Federer and Djokovic approach Wawrinka and what makes one more successful than the other.
A lot of good replies in this thread, and you just posted the worst ones back to back derailing the thread. Congratulations.
Those were just defensive replies. Not meaningful contributions in any way, shape or form.
 
#30
You forgot, Fed is Nole's pigeon...

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23-22 with peak Nole playing post prime and grandpa Fed for 5 years, with peak Fed only getting 1 year to play pre prime Djokovic.

How the heck is the H2H so close??? Nole should be like 35 - 10 by now. In fact, Federer led the GS H2H 6-5 to the end of 2012, and blew double MP in 2 of those losses.

If the ages were reversed, Federer would have an unassailable lead.
 

BlueB

Hall of Fame
#31
Those were just defensive replies. Not meaningful contributions in any way, shape or form.
Not really. It highlights the issue of matchups, which I clearly stated at the end of my 1st post.
It also stops Fednatics from gloating too much, conveniently forgetting the 3rd part of the equation.

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#34
Could Fed emulate Wawrinka's style for his next big encounter with Nole? Or does Wawrinka have shots that Fed simply can't reproduce?
That's what he has done to beat Nadal both times this year, so I am assuming he will do the same against Djoker, that is if Djoker ever makes it far enough in a tournament to play Fed considering how poorly he is playing.
 
#36
Who knows? When Stan is on everything is clicking. The thing is that Stan is more often off then on.

I would love to see Stan being more consistent. People tend to remember his best matches. If you look at the big picture he lost so many matches against Fed or Novak or whoever. Short time memory.

Stan is a great player for sure. It is strange that he has showed up late. His talent was always there. Good luck to him and let's hope he can spank some big asses on the tour again :)
 
#42
The matchup issue is the biggest reason. But another point that we shouldn’t ignore is that in the Fed-Djokovic matchup, Fed always plays the role of the incumbent while Djokovic is the challenger, no matter what the ranking is. And that has subtle but definite psychological effects that over the course of a long rivalry provides real advantages, especially on important points. With Djokovic-Wawrinka, Djokovic does not have this advantage and, if anything, the tables are slightly turned.
 
#43
As most others have stated here, tennis is a game of match ups.

Why does Nadal struggle against Davydenko, yet enjoyed the Federer match most his career, while Davydenko struggled against Federer?

Match ups play a massive part in the game, if your game naturally neutralizes the game of your opponent, or your strength goes against their weakness, then there is a match up there that cannot be avoided when discussing the H2H.
 
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