Why has Nadal been so unbeatable at RG?

[Nadal_King]

Can someone remind me what Nadal's BO5 record is on clay (not just RG).

125-2

 

[Eren]

125-2

Thanks. Absolutely amazing achievement. Best achievement in all of sport IMO.

Even as a Fed fan, I am hoping he can improve that record. It's out of this world.

 

[Maha2322]

Two things.

1. Chatrier court is big. Nadal stands further down to return serve and play defensively. There is no value for good serve anymore

2. Court is high bouncing and slow which aides his top spin forehand

May be everybody should try underarm serve to unsettle him. This is the only way to force him out from advertisement board while returning serve

 

[The Blond Blur]

That had a big part to do with Novaks poor serving day. He got out aced by Rafa 4 to 1, despite being a better server, and a better returner. That doesn't happen unless Novak is serving poorly.

Joker got 67% of his 1st serves in play compared to RAFA who got in 65%. RAFA is one of the best returners in tennis history, period point blank.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

The longer Nadal keeps winning it the more Robin Soderling's legend grows as being one of only 2 players to beat him there, the other of course being an ATG. Players should study that match to see exactly what game plan Soderling used.

Soderling's tactics?

Simple: "Hope for a 4th round draw against Rafa when he is trying to recover from an injury that started in Rome a few weeks earlier in a 4-hour marathon vs Djokovic in the semis - which came a few rounds after he crushed me 61 60, because that's the score that happens when I play an uninjured Rafa."

Let's face it, Robby got lucky. At least another 5-6 players in the draw that year could have beaten him. Nadal wasn't fit, he then skipped Wimby after his loss.

Proof to some extent is also that Rafa beat Soderling THREE times (before and after 2009) at the FO, all in straight sets.

And so crusheth the Soderling legend...

 

[Chanwan]

Joker got 67% of his 1st serves in play compared to RAFA who got in 65%. RAFA is one of the best returners in tennis history, period point blank.

Saying Djoko got 67 % in, hence he served good, is, pardon my French, lazy analysis.
Would you agree that Rafa is one of the best in the history of the game, when the rally is in neutral? I.e. that his baseline game is basically second to none?
If so, he can have amazing return stats, without being the best or even one of the best returners.

Imo, Rafa's ROS is both grossly overrated and grossly underrated. Many of his fans just take a look at the "who's won the most return games" stats, see Rafa's name up there right after Coria's and conclude that he's the best. But 1) playing a lot of clay matches gives you a higher percentage 2) Rafa being so great at tennis in general and from when the rally is in neutral in particular gives him a higher percentage.

I will say that Rafa has a very effective return for his game. It's not a return that puts the server under immediate pressure like Novak (or Murray or Agassi or Connors). But it's a return that get's him into the point and from then on, he becomes more and more dangerous.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Saying Djoko got 67 % in, hence he served good, is, pardon my French, lazy analysis.
Would you agree that Rafa is one of the best in the history of the game, when the rally is in neutral? I.e. that his baseline game is basically second to none?
If so, he can have amazing return stats, without being the best or even one of the best returners.

Imo, Rafa's ROS is both grossly overrated and grossly underrated. Many of his fans just take a look at the "who's won the most return games" stats, see Rafa's name up there right after Coria's and conclude that he's the best. But 1) playing a lot of clay matches gives you a higher percentage 2) Rafa being so great at tennis in general and from when the rally is in neutral in particular gives him a higher percentage.

I will say that Rafa has a very effective return for his game. It's not a return that puts the server under immediate pressure like Novak (or Murray or Agassi or Connors). But it's a return that get's him into the point and from then on, he becomes more and more dangerous.

It’s far less lazy than to say he’s not one of the best returners (without proof mind you) or that he’s both an underrated and overrated returner. I don’t like sitting in fences. You can’t win a lot of returner games with a bad return of serve. RAFA has historically great return stats across all surfaces not just clay. Therefore he’s an all time great returner. His return style is different than Joker, Murray, and Agassi’s, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad or overrated returner.

 

[Tostao80]

Joker got 67% of his 1st serves in play compared to RAFA who got in 65%. RAFA is one of the best returners in tennis history, period point blank.

Context. The first 2 sets Novak had 42 and 56% first serves in. That is atrocious. The third set he had 74% so brought his average up. Rafa was only sub par in the 3rd (56%). I love Rafa, but if you were to have a shortlist for " best attributes in history", you put him in the forehand, movement" category, not return of serve with the likes of Novak, Agassi and Murray.

 

[Tostao80]

It’s far less lazy than to say he’s not one of the best returners (without proof mind you) or that he’s both an underrated and overrated returner. I don’t like sitting in fences. You can’t win a lot of returner games with a bad return of serve. RAFA has historically great return stats across all surfaces not just clay. Therefore he’s an all time great returner. His return style is different than Joker, Murray, and Agassi’s, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad or overrated returner.

No one has claimed Rafa has a bad return of serve. Secondly, you're using great return game stats to prove someone has a great return. Doesn't Rafa have better career return game stats than Novak? Yet, Novak is a better returner, even you would concede that.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Context. The first 2 sets Novak had 42 and 56% first serves in. That is atrocious. The third set he had 74% so brought his average up. Rafa was only sub par in the 3rd (56%). I love Rafa, but if you were to have a shortlist for " best attributes in history", you put him in the forehand, movement" category, not return of serve with the likes of Novak, Agassi and Murray.

You’re nitpicking one match. I just used that as an example because it’s the most recent match played. I never said RAFA was a better returner than Joker, Murray, or Agassi. I said he’s a historically great returner. You do realize there can be more than 3 great returners out of the thousands of pro players that have played the game right Imo based on the stats, RAFA is a top 10 returner.

 

[DSH]

 

[Chanwan]

It’s far less lazy than to say he’s not one of the best returners (without proof mind you) or that he’s both an underrated and overrated returner. I don’t like sitting in fences. You can’t win a lot of returner games with a bad return of serve. RAFA has historically great return stats across all surfaces not just clay. Therefore he’s an all time great returner. His return style is different than Joker, Murray, and Agassi’s, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad or overrated returner.

You’re nitpicking one match. I just used that as an example because it’s the most recent match played. I never said RAFA was a better returner than Joker, Murray, or Agassi. I said he’s a historically great returner. You do realize there can be more than 3 great returners out of the thousands of pro players that have played the game right Imo based on the stats, RAFA is a top 10 returner.

Pardon for my use of lazy, I think that caused you to look at my actual argument (or proof if you will):
1) Rafa's got possible the best ever rally game in tennis
2) him being so great on clay (the easiest to return serve on) puts his overall return game percentage up at the very top.
3) Hence, his overall return stats are deceiving.
4) His movement, mentality, defensive capabilities and overall tennis ability once the ball is in play are the primary reasons why he's among the top returners on tour year after year, not his ROS as a stand alone shot.

If you look at grass, the hardest surface to return on, he's ranked 50 in return games won: https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/grass/all/ (but without the usual suspects at the very top as well)
If you look at HC, he's 11th, but here the names in general corresponds much better with whom we tend to think of as great returners

Return Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis

Return games won leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

I think he has a great return in the sense that he gets a lot of balls back in play and that he (often) manages to do so in a way, where the opponent has a hard time putting the 2nd shot away (partly because of Rafa's defense). Hence, he uses his return to get into the rally and once he's into the rally, the likelyhood of him winning the point goes up with each stroke (or used to, when looking at his whole career, the longer the point, the better for Rafa).

Take Schwartzman, Medvedev and even Nishikori. Would you argue that they have a better game from the ground than Rafa? No? If not, they must have a better ROS, cause they pose pretty similar return numbers on HC last year: https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/2019/hard/all/

The best returners, in my book, are the ones who manages both to put a lot of balls back in play and put the server under pressure/on the defensive from the very first ball. Rafa is not in that category. He possibly could be (or could be close), but it's not his gamestyle/mindset.

All in all. Rafa's hasn't got a bad ROS, nor a mediocre ROS. He's got a good, even great, ROS. Just not top-10 of all time.

 

[Chanwan]

It’s far less lazy than to say he’s not one of the best returners (without proof mind you) or that he’s both an underrated and overrated returner. I don’t like sitting in fences. You can’t win a lot of returner games with a bad return of serve. RAFA has historically great return stats across all surfaces not just clay. Therefore he’s an all time great returner. His return style is different than Joker, Murray, and Agassi’s, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad or overrated returner.

p.s. Rafa also historically has great service game won stats, heck last year he's 3rd on HC. Ahead of Raonic, Federer and Kyrgios. https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/service-games-won/2019/hard/all/
If you look at service games won all time, across surfaces, you find Rafa ahead of guys like Ivanisevic, The Scud, Mueller, Querrey, Lopez, Stich and Ljubicic: https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/service-games-won/all/all/all/

Does he also have a top-10 (or top-20) serve of all time? No, of course not. He's just amazing - maybe even the best ever - once the ball is in regular play.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Pardon for my use of lazy, I think that caused you to look at my actual argument (or proof if you will):
1) Rafa's got possible the best ever rally game in tennis
2) him being so great on clay (the easiest to return serve on) puts his overall return game percentage up at the very top.
3) Hence, his overall return stats are deceiving.
4) His movement, mentality, defensive capabilities and overall tennis ability once the ball is in play are the primary reasons why he's among the top returners on tour year after year, not his ROS as a stand alone shot.

If you look at grass, the hardest surface to return on, he's ranked 50 in return games won: https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/grass/all/ (but without the usual suspects at the very top as well)
If you look at HC, he's 11th, but here the names in general corresponds much better with whom we tend to think of as great returners

Return Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis

Return games won leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

I think he has a great return in the sense that he gets a lot of balls back in play and that he (often) manages to do so in a way, where the opponent has a hard time putting the 2nd shot away (partly because of Rafa's defense). Hence, he uses his return to get into the rally and once he's into the rally, the likelyhood of him winning the point goes up with each stroke (or used to, when looking at his whole career, the longer the point, the better for Rafa).

Take Schwartzman, Medvedev and even Nishikori. Would you argue that they have a better game from the ground than Rafa? No? If not, they must have a better ROS, cause they pose pretty similar return numbers on HC last year: https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/2019/hard/all/

The best returners, in my book, are the ones who manages both to put a lot of balls back in play and put the server under pressure/on the defensive from the very first ball. Rafa is not in that category. He possibly could be (or could be close), but it's not his gamestyle/mindset.

All in all. Rafa's hasn't got a bad ROS, nor a mediocre ROS. He's got a good, even great, ROS. Just not top-10 of all time.

No need to apologize, I didn’t take it personal. IMO he’s done enough over the course of his 19 year pro career to be in the top 10. The guys you mentioned outside of Nishikori haven’t been doing it long enough to be considered ATG returners. RAFA isn’t as an aggressive returner as the like of Murrovic or Agassi, but he gets a lot of returns back that prevent the server from being aggressive. Agassi for an example was an aggressive returner, but he’s also the most aced man of all time for a reason. He gambled a lot on opponents serves. RAFA by contrast is a much more conservative returner, but still a great one.

My top 10 returners not necessarily in order would go as follows:

Joker
Murray
Agassi
Connors
Borg
Wilander
Hewitt
Ferrer
Nalbandian
RAFA

 

[sandiegoman]

He is not unbeatable, but somehow he finds his form in the late rounds. By the way, I still stand by my point that he is very lucky that Zverev didn't reach the 1/4 finals. With the level Nadal showed in this round he would have been destroyed, especially given that it was so late. However, in the final he SUDDENLY entered god-mode.

Rafa is the goat on clay.

 

[Chanwan]

No need to apologize, I didn’t take it personal. IMO he’s done enough over the course of his 19 year pro career to be in the top 10. The guys you mentioned outside of Nishikori haven’t been doing it long enough to be considered ATG returners. RAFA isn’t as an aggressive returner as the like of Murrovic or Agassi, but he gets a lot of returns back that prevent the server from being aggressive. Agassi for an example was an aggressive returner, but he’s also the most aced man of all time for a reason. He gambled a lot on opponents serves. RAFA by contrast is a much more conservative returner, but still a great one.

My top 10 returners not necessarily in order would go as follows:

Joker
Murray
Agassi
Connors
Borg
Wilander
Hewitt
Ferrer
Nalbandian
RAFA

Watching a movie now so just 3 quick additions for now. Connors, Chang, Coria. Edit - ah, you had Connors already. Would add Davydenko too.

I'm not saying Rafa is far removed from the top-10. But you don't buy or discuss my main argument: He's so good at the rest that it makes his ROS seem better than it is as a stand alone shot?
Just as he can post elite service hold numbers without being an elite server (he's much more elite in the ROS department though, no argument there)

 

[Chanwan]

No need to apologize, I didn’t take it personal. IMO he’s done enough over the course of his 19 year pro career to be in the top 10. The guys you mentioned outside of Nishikori haven’t been doing it long enough to be considered ATG returners. RAFA isn’t as an aggressive returner as the like of Murrovic or Agassi, but he gets a lot of returns back that prevent the server from being aggressive. Agassi for an example was an aggressive returner, but he’s also the most aced man of all time for a reason. He gambled a lot on opponents serves. RAFA by contrast is a much more conservative returner, but still a great one.

My top 10 returners not necessarily in order would go as follows:

Joker
Murray
Agassi
Connors
Borg
Wilander
Hewitt
Ferrer
Nalbandian
RAFA

Edited my answer above

 

[tennis24x7]

He is not unbeatable, but somehow he finds his form in the late rounds. By the way, I still stand by my point that he is very lucky that Zverev didn't reach the 1/4 finals. With the level Nadal showed in this round he would have been destroyed, especially given that it was so late. However, in the final he SUDDENLY entered god-mode.

Wait till next year Nadal will handle Zverev too

 

[tennis24x7]

Ok so I kind of know the answer. The slower clay surface allows him to construct points and t up the forehand amongst other reasons. But I still can't really comprehend it all. It's the same players playing with the same racquets and balls. Only the surface is different. Why has it made so much difference? I mean only 2 defeats in 100 matches. Come on!

There are other super slow surfaces on the tour which he hasn't dominated. I mean 13 wins is just beyond belief and really, GOAT debate aside, of all the stats and achievements out there, slam count, weeks at No 1 etc, in isolation, winning 1 slam 13 times arguably tops them all.

When people say 'That record will never be beaten' when referring to a particular sporting achievement, I will always argue that regardless of how good the record is somebody at some point in time will come along and beat the record as its just the way it is. Records get beaten eventually.

For example, somebody will beat Usain Bolt's 100m record. It may not happen in the next 10, 20 or even 100 yrs but eventually it will happen. However in the case of Nadal and the French Open even I struggle to make the same argument purely because I'm not sure how it's physically possible and I don't think Rafa is finished either. He could win at least another 2.

I suppose there have been 3 yrs when he has not won it so maybe somebody could come along and win it every single year from the age of 18 to 38 and win 20? Highly unlikely though surely.

The longer Nadal keeps winning it the more Robin Soderling's legend grows as being one of only 2 players to beat him there, the other of course being an ATG. Players should study that match to see exactly what game plan Soderling used.

So I think regardless of who's corner you are in in terms of fans, I think everyone should appreciate what Nadal has done. Genuinely one of the greatest sporting achievements.

I read somewhere that his parents got divorced or something the year Soderling beat Rafa, Rafa beat him easily the next year. Something like Sharapova beating Serena in 2004, she was caught off guard, but then decimated her till her retirement

 

[mightyrick]

Ok so I kind of know the answer. The slower clay surface allows him to construct points and t up the forehand amongst other reasons. But I still can't really comprehend it all. It's the same players playing with the same racquets and balls. Only the surface is different. Why has it made so much difference? I mean only 2 defeats in 100 matches. Come on!

Your last two sentences above point out clearly... that none of those mechanical things... or the surface itself... is the reason for such an absurd statistic.

When you go to Youtube and listen to the trait ALL of his opponents say is his edge, it is purely mental. All of them point to his focus and the fact that he *NEVER* takes a point off. Even if he is down 0-5 in a set, he plays with equally high intensity. It causes his opponents to eventually break down because they cannot match his consistently high level of focus and intensity.

People say it is Nadal's lefty spin, his incredible movement, his physical stamina. But all of those things are as good as they are because of Nadal's mind. He is the most focused and intense player in the history of the game. That intensity and determination affect all other aspects of his game. It affects his stamina, his strength, his groundstrokes, his footwork... and most importantly... it affects his opponents. The level of intimidation is huge.

Truly focused and determined people are scary. It is scary what they accomplish and the ruthlessness in which they do it.

 

[DSH]

Nadal has so many Roland Garros titles for two reasons:

1. Djokovic. Nole always had the physical game to beat Rafa at RG, but the mental game would go south when they met. The DF on championship point at 2012 RG was a sign of things to come.

2. LostGens/NextGens. No comments needed.

Tell us, why did Federer win so many Wimbledon titles, more than anyone in History, "unbiased" poster?

 

[ACE of Hearts]

Bolded, Nadal did play the rest of the season. He reached the Cincy semis, USO semis, Shanghai final and Paris semis as his best results.

Federer always came with the same game plan against nadal. Didn’t work. I like Roger but i never thought he was a great mover on clay like novak djokovic.

 

[duaneeo]

Tell us, why Federer won so many Wimbledon titles, more than anybody in History, "unbiased",poster?

Calm down. Nadal is the well-deserved all-time RG winner, but IMO the reason he has 13 titles (rather than, say, 8-9) is because of what was stated.

 

[mike danny]

Federer always came with the same game plan against nadal. Didn’t work. I like Roger but i never thought he was a great mover on clay like novak djokovic.

I don't think Djokovic is this amazing clay courter either just because he pushed Nadal to 5 sets once.

 

[aldeayeah]

Federer always came with the same game plan against nadal. Didn’t work. I like Roger but i never thought he was a great mover on clay like novak djokovic.

Fed is (was) a superb mover on clay, it was his strokes/racquet/game plan that could use some extra adaptation to the surface.

Novak is a great mover on everything.

 

[aldeayeah]

I don't think Djokovic is this amazing clay courter either just because he pushed Nadal to 5 sets once.

Novak and Rog are the two best clay courters of our time after Rafa, there's little discussion of that fact. Coria was pretty damn good, but he faded away.

 

[mike danny]

Novak and Rog are the two best clay courters of our time after Rafa, there's little discussion of that fact. Coria was pretty damn good, but he faded away.

I know, but as we found out this year, Djokovic's level of threat to Rafa on clay was overhyped massively.

 

[aldeayeah]

I know, but as we found out this year, Djokovic's level of threat to Rafa on clay was overhyped massively.

I'm talking historically. He tends to fall short in RG, but let's remember he won back to back matches in straights against a good version of Nadal in 2011, and 7 wins on clay overall (most of everyone in the tour, by far)

Of course Nadal will be favorite barring injury, but I wouldn't be too surprised if Djokovic took RG 2021.

 

[weakera]

I believe #1 is his movement on clay. In the words of Federer,

He makes you feel uncomfortable the way he defends the court and plays on clay. There is nobody who even plays remotely close to him.

I don't even know who I need to go search for to go practice with somebody who plays like him (smiling). I was thinking that during the match. It's just amazing how he plays from deep and then is able to bounce back and forth from the baseline. It's just quite interesting.