Why I can't serve flat?

[crystal_clear]

I know something wrong with my serve and I couldn't serve flat.

I think I use continental grip. When I hold continental grip, I always spin the serve as at the contact point, my racquet hit ball with an angle.
I tried the Eastern grip and I felt I could serve flatter though not 100% flat. This may clarify I didn't migrate the grip (I thought that's the reason my racquet facing the sky before the backscratch.) during serve motion as I have spin serves most of the time. So do I miss the pronation part to flatten out the racquet face at contact point?

 

[LeeD]

Yup, you don't pronate.
Conti grip, twist your arm inwards to flatten out the racketface on contact with the ball.
Like practice too.

 

[crystal_clear]

Yup, you don't pronate.
Conti grip, twist your arm inwards to flatten out the racketface on contact with the ball.
Like practice too.

Thanks LeeD~

This can explain why I can serve flatter with Eastern grip without pronation.

So what is the advantage using Continental grip instead of Eastern grip? Twisting arm inwards seems very unnatural to me or I just try to find an excuse to be lazy?

 

[LeeD]

Unnatural, yes.
Take much more practice, yes.
Feels wierd, yes.
But....EFH flat serves, for most people, tend to get underspin when the serve is hit fast....as fast as conti gripped pronated serves. So the ball goes long, and the player compensates by hitting lower, so the ball goes into the net.
Conti serves can be hit with a knuckleball dead effect, which allows a slight dropping motion imparted from a barely spinning ball, but not backspun. So more serves go in with faster swings.
It wasn't easy for you to learn to walk when you were 10 months old, but you persevered and learned not to always crawl and roll to your destination, didn't you. ?

 

[crystal_clear]

Unnatural, yes.
Take much more practice, yes.
Feels wierd, yes.
But....EFH flat serves, for most people, tend to get underspin when the serve is hit fast....as fast as conti gripped pronated serves. So the ball goes long, and the player compensates by hitting lower, so the ball goes into the net.
Conti serves can be hit with a knuckleball dead effect, which allows a slight dropping motion imparted from a barely spinning ball, but not backspun. So more serves go in with faster swings.
It wasn't easy for you to learn to walk when you were 10 months old, but you persevered and learned not to always crawl and roll to your destination, didn't you. ?

I see. I realize I never pronate when serve.
What is "knuckleball dead effect"? I google it and it is related to baseball pitchers.

 

[WildVolley]

A lot of times people can't serve flat because they've already grooved their stroke pattern for a spin serve and they don't change the racket path for the flat serve.

 

[cl1]

I have the exact same problem. I did know that the problem was that I was not pronating, and I tried to practice pronation while trying to serve flat with continental grip. However this led to some sharp pain in my wrist and I had to stop. May be I wasn't doing the pronation the right way? I seem to read somewhere that you shouldn't consciously pronate, it comes naturally somehow. But for me if I don't consciously pronate, it just turns into a spin serve. If I try to pronate, my wrist hurts. Any tips? Thanks!

 

[wyutani]

i thought flat was the 1st lesson u learn?

well importance is pronation. left leg (if u righty) facing the net pole (right facing u), and toss the ball infront of u.

main thing is still PRONATION.

take a look at the pic.

 

[crystal_clear]

I have the exact same problem. I did know that the problem was that I was not pronating, and I tried to practice pronation while trying to serve flat with continental grip. However this led to some sharp pain in my wrist and I had to stop. May be I wasn't doing the pronation the right way? I seem to read somewhere that you shouldn't consciously pronate, it comes naturally somehow. But for me if I don't consciously pronate, it just turns into a spin serve. If I try to pronate, my wrist hurts. Any tips? Thanks!

I feel I need to really twist my arm in order to pronate... I don't have the natural pronation either.

When wrist hurts, it must be something wrong with the technique.

 

[crystal_clear]

i thought flat was the 1st lesson u learn?

well importance is pronation. left leg (if u righty) facing the net pole (right facing u), and toss the ball infront of u.

main thing is still PRONATION.

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I self studyed serve and I have a natural spin serve.

take a look at the pic.

Easy seen than done.

 

[LeeD]

pronation is done with the whole arm, starting with the shoulder socket ball, using some elbow, some wrist, and some grip..... maybe an inward twist of the whole arm....
wrist itself cannot pronate, it bends..
elbow also...
shoulder is your ball joint.

 

[cl1]

pronation is done with the whole arm, starting with the shoulder socket ball, using some elbow, some wrist, and some grip..... maybe an inward twist of the whole arm....
wrist itself cannot pronate, it bends..
elbow also...
shoulder is your ball joint.

Thanks for the tip! I guess I am using just the wrist that's why it hurts. I will try using more of the whole arm starting from the shoulder to pronate...

 

[wyutani]

I self studyed serve and I have a natural spin serve.

Easy seen than done.

well, i forgot the word practice. u got the practice, if serving was so easy, tennis coaches will lose alot of money.

 

[Solat]

pronation is done only with the forearm, the easiest way to understand the movement is to go up to a fence and reach up as tho you are serving with the side of your racquet (conti grip). by turning your forearm inwards (palm forwards) you can move the racquet so it lays flat on the fence, what you will notice is that you need to create an angle at the wrist, the racquet will not sit above the wrist, it should angle to sit above your head. This is how to create a flat racquet face for contact.

Of course there are other body parts involved, but as far as the arm is concerned there is external --> internal rotation of the shoulder, elbow flexion-->extension-->flexion and wrist extension -->flexion/adduction. However these things are generally results of good technique rather then actively controlled

The answer to your question, "whats the advantage of conti + pronation vs eFH + no pronation" is simple, look at the photo example of pronation from wyutani, if you put a racquet in that fist it moves through 180 degrees with just forearm rotation, in eFH grip where the racquet extends above the wrist the racquet just twists with the same motion. Therefore maximum acceleration and length of swing are gained by pronating with a conti which would not be possible with eFH

 

[crystal_clear]

well, i forgot the word practice. u got the practice, if serving was so easy, tennis coaches will lose alot of money.

You are right. Tennis coaches make more money for correcting bad habbits as it will take a lot more lessons.

 

[crystal_clear]

pronation is done only with the forearm, the easiest way to understand the movement is to go up to a fence and reach up as tho you are serving with the side of your racquet (conti grip). by turning your forearm inwards (palm forwards) you can move the racquet so it lays flat on the fence, what you will notice is that you need to create an angle at the wrist, the racquet will not sit above the wrist, it should angle to sit above your head. This is how to create a flat racquet face for contact.

Of course there are other body parts involved, but as far as the arm is concerned there is external --> internal rotation of the shoulder, elbow flexion-->extension-->flexion and wrist extension -->flexion/adduction. However these things are generally results of good technique rather then actively controlled

The answer to your question, "whats the advantage of conti + pronation vs eFH + no pronation" is simple, look at the photo example of pronation from wyutani, if you put a racquet in that fist it moves through 180 degrees with just forearm rotation, in eFH grip where the racquet extends above the wrist the racquet just twists with the same motion. Therefore maximum acceleration and length of swing are gained by pronating with a conti which would not be possible with eFH

Thanks. This makes a lot of sense to me. Now I get the motive to use continental grip + pronation to serve hard.

 

[stormholloway]

pronation is done only with the forearm

This isn't true at all. The pronating move that has the greatest effect on racquet velocity is that of the shoulder. Take a look at Sampras' high elbow after he strikes the ball. This is caused by a pronation of the shoulder joint.

 

[user92626]

OP,


I learn much by visualization and analogies. May I suggest that for this pronating flat serve you use the image and mechanic of knocking a door with your fist's knuckles?

Think of it like ..drop the racket as backscratcher, then slice it up and forward with the edge. Then, around the contact point, turn your arm as though you're knocking hard on someone's door with your knuckles.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Thanks LeeD~

This can explain why I can serve flatter with Eastern grip without pronation.

So what is the advantage using Continental grip instead of Eastern grip? Twisting arm inwards seems very unnatural to me or I just try to find an excuse to be lazy?

The grip: continental (base knuckle of the index finger on panel 2 or upper part of panel 2 (let's call all panels for simplicity). If you look at the butt cap the handle has 8 panels!

What is pronation? It allows alignment of the strings to hit the ball. Without pronation, your frame will be hitting the ball!

How to do pronation? Just imagine you are unscrewing a fused bulb (your hand, wrist, forearm, rotate anti-clockwise). Keep your grip pretty loose. With tight grip it is not possible to pronate.

As you line up your racket-head with the ball, hit through it.

Just imagine that the ball is a clock and you want to hit the center of the clock.

Practice.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

OP,


I learn much by visualization and analogies. May I suggest that for this pronating flat serve you use the image and mechanic of knocking a door with your fist's knuckles?

Think of it like ..drop the racket as backscratcher, then slice it up and forward with the edge. Then, around the contact point, turn your arm as though you're knocking hard on someone's door with your knuckles.

Knocking hard on someone's door with your knuckles? I do'nt get it. The wrist and forearm has to pronate. I think the best analogy will be "unscrewing a bulb" where your hand-wrist-forearm rotate anti-clockwise.

 

[user92626]

"un/screwing a bulb" sounds good (I'm lefty so it's screwing). However, to me, the door can be analogical as the plane where your stringbed meets the ball and of course shifted a bit to be perpendicular to the direction where the ball will go. I slice thru the air and pronate as such that my finger knuckles or rolled up palm faces this plane, no?

 

[crystal_clear]

OP,


I learn much by visualization and analogies. May I suggest that for this pronating flat serve you use the image and mechanic of knocking a door with your fist's knuckles?

Think of it like ..drop the racket as backscratcher, then slice it up and forward with the edge. Then, around the contact point, turn your arm as though you're knocking hard on someone's door with your knuckles.

Thanks for the tip~ It sounds like the "wrist snap" action though...I will try this.

 

[crystal_clear]

The grip: continental (base knuckle of the index finger on panel 2 or upper part of panel 2 (let's call all panels for simplicity). If you look at the butt cap the handle has 8 panels!

What is pronation? It allows alignment of the strings to hit the ball. Without pronation, your frame will be hitting the ball!

How to do pronation? Just imagine you are unscrewing a fused bulb (your hand, wrist, forearm, rotate anti-clockwise). Keep your grip pretty loose. With tight grip it is not possible to pronate.

As you line up your racket-head with the ball, hit through it.

Just imagine that the ball is a clock and you want to hit the center of the clock.

Practice.

Thanks for the crystal clear explaination. I can imagine myself hit a flat serve to the center of the clock. "Bang!"

 

[Solat]

This isn't true at all. The pronating move that has the greatest effect on racquet velocity is that of the shoulder. Take a look at Sampras' high elbow after he strikes the ball. This is caused by a pronation of the shoulder joint.

the shoulder internally rotates actually

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Thanks for the crystal clear explaination. I can imagine myself hit a flat serve to the center of the clock. "Bang!"

You are welcome.

Mahboob Khan