Why is a kick serve so easy for some people and so hard for others

PKorda

Professional
Played a guy tonight with a wicked kick serve, hits it both as a first and second. I've been trying to hit a decent kick half my life. At end of match I ask him for tips, and he says just toss the ball a little behind you and swing up as if it was making toast. He couldn't comprehend this being difficult. So why is it so easy for some people?
 

chic

Hall of Fame
Mostly it's probably just down to how they learned or first tried to emulate when serving.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I don’t think it’s difficult at all but the proper kick serve form is very uncomfortable for an average person. Well maybe that’s the difficulty.
 

chic

Hall of Fame
Also I guess to ones willingness to put in the time for a total rework of the serve. There's a lot of moving parts to even the simplest serve motion. Changing or adding to it usually takes me a couple months of a 3-4 days a week hitting a 140 ball hopper.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I've never found that. But I also was a pretty good swimmer so mu upper body chain is probably more flexible than your average post college dude
Yeah. I think the idea is very simple, no rocket science at all. I taught a young athletic person how to hit a kick serve in 15 minutes, no exaggeration.
 

chic

Hall of Fame
Swing path. That’s it.
What’s a kick serve? Top spin serve with the ball rotation axis angled to the side rather than horizontal.
Alternately, let your chest open up more to the back of the court.

I don't think this is the best way to learn one, but it does force a swingpath that has some kick
 

BetaServe

Professional
Wanna know a secret?

Imagine from the back perspective, the path of the elbow going from the trophy position to the contact point should be vertical, something like this:
|
|
|
instead of:
aa/
a/
/
(this will promote slice instead)

Example

From 0:12 (trophy) to 0:14 (contact), you can see his elbow goes straight up vertically from 6 to 12 o'clock and not from 6 to 2 o'clock
From a different angle, from 1:35 (trophy) to 1:37 (contact)

P/s: also, stay sideways + toss the ball from left to right
 
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LaZeR

Professional
Played a guy tonight with a wicked kick serve, hits it both as a first and second.
This is the best idea in order to master - keep practicing your kick serve for BOTH first & second until it's natural, and then later go back to incorporating a more direct, traditional, first serve. FWIW this is what I do every time playing recreational tennis.
 
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sredna42

Hall of Fame
Played a guy tonight with a wicked kick serve, hits it both as a first and second. I've been trying to hit a decent kick half my life. At end of match I ask him for tips, and he says just toss the ball a little behind you and swing up as if it was making toast. He couldn't comprehend this being difficult. So why is it so easy for some people?

because the swingpath of the kick serve, the feel of it, is different from slice/flat.
most people cannot grasp swinging parallel to the baseline, and let their hitting shoulder come through as they swing, and have absolutely no idea they are doing it, or that it is even a thing.

I went from not being able to hit a kicker at all, then I had a epiphany, and within a few minutes was getting the ball to kick up at my mate's head, and spin away to the right.

I'm no coach, but if you can;t do it, and struggle, then DON'T stand there doing serve after serve. You won't get it, and will drive yourself mad with frustration.
Face the court fence, right up to it, and just do the swingpath in slow motion against the fence, over and over., strings flat against the fence (or whatever flat surface) to make sure your shoulder can't come forward. Over and over slowly. Then stand there and just swat up at the ball a few times with that motion. Then go back to slow shadow swings against the fence, then swat the ball a few times.

Like learning a hard song on guitar slowly, once you get it right the speed comes.

All the other stuff about opening the chest to the ball, 7 to 1 across the ball, toss location, worry about that later. Just get the swingpath parallel to the baseline with the shoulder staying back, so it doesn't break down and you learn the feel of it so can recreate it when you want to do it.

After that it is just racquet head speed, and minor tinkering.

Just my 2 cents trying to make it easy to learn
 

sredna42

Hall of Fame
Tips like this is why people can’t do it. They get dizzy!:)

Yeah it's in the wrong order, you worry about that stuff down the track when the fundamental swingpath is ingrained and you can switch from flat/slice/ to kick swingpaths, and know the feel of both without thinking.
 

chic

Hall of Fame
Yeah it's in the wrong order, you worry about that stuff down the track when the fundamental swingpath is ingrained and you can switch from flat/slice/ to kick swingpaths, and know the feel of both without thinking.
That's fair

I can't slice without really thinking about what I'm doing, but flat and kick come naturally so I'm probably not the best person to advise. I just know what I do to make mine better, not the hurdles I got over when I was too young to be analysing it.
 

sredna42

Hall of Fame
Swing path. That’s it.
What’s a kick serve? Top spin serve with the ball rotation axis angled to the side rather than horizontal.

Yes, this, it is really simple actually when the lightbulb goes off above your head, and you get the feel of it.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Played a guy tonight with a wicked kick serve, hits it both as a first and second. I've been trying to hit a decent kick half my life. At end of match I ask him for tips, and he says just toss the ball a little behind you and swing up as if it was making toast. He couldn't comprehend this being difficult. So why is it so easy for some people?
Players who learned a kick serve when they were young and practiced it a lot have good kick serves. It seems like coaches teach kick serves mostly to juniors and rarely to adult beginners because it is not an easy serve to learn - the junior need to learn it if they have any aspirations to become an advanced player. So, players who learned tennis as adults have never practiced kick-serves enough and I think the motion is not as easily learned from just watching videos or other players - toss location, swing path, back-arching etc. are so different from a flat or slice serve. I think a good kick serve can be learned if it is practiced a lot for a few weeks after taking one or two lessons initially - there is no magic to it, but maybe it needs a bit more back flexibility than other serves.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Played a guy tonight with a wicked kick serve, hits it both as a first and second. I've been trying to hit a decent kick half my life. At end of match I ask him for tips, and he says just toss the ball a little behind you and swing up as if it was making toast. He couldn't comprehend this being difficult. So why is it so easy for some people?

If you have a Waiter's Tray serve - the most common serving technique - I don't see how you can make the racket head rise while hitting the ball. An effective kick serve with a WT seems impossible. A slice serve can can be hit with a WT.

Take video of your serve.

To see how the racket hits the ball in a high level kick serve you need about 240 fps. That is because the racket head for the kick serve is still rising a few milliseconds before it reaches its highest point.

See thread - Junior Twist Serve
 

PKorda

Professional
If you have a Waiter's Tray serve - the most common serving technique - I don't see how you can make the racket head rise while hitting the ball.

Take video of your serve.

To see how the racket hits the ball in a high level kick serve you need about 240 fps. That is because the racket head for the kick serve is still rising a few milliseconds before it reaches its highest point.

See thread - Junior Twist Serve
I don't have a waiter tray serve. I'm an advanced player. My first serve form is pretty good, has good consistency but lacks power.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I don't have a waiter tray serve. I'm an advanced player. My first serve form is pretty good, has good consistency but lacks power.

You have technique issues.

Then a clear high speed video will show you why your kick serve is not effective.

It's simple -
1) the racket must contact the ball before its highest point so that it is still rising.
2) Also, the racket should be closed roughly 15 degrees at impact, unlike the slice, flat and probably the 'top spin' serve. See side camera views at impact. Details in Junior Twist Serve thread.
3) Others.

I believe that a top spin serve does not have the closed racket face of the kick serve (that bounces to the right).

High level kick serve. Note - the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle is smaller for a kick serve, than for a flat or slice serve, and that allows the racket head to keep rising.
To advance single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. It skips frames, watch racket edge closely and go back and forth.

The saying to 'toss the ball over your head for the kick serve' is misleading because pro servers move their heads forward after they release the toss. But impact should be about over the head. If you can see the ball impact you probably are impacting it too far in front of you.
 
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PKorda

Professional
Then a clear high speed video will show you why your kick serve is not effective.

It's simple - the racket must contact the ball before its highest point so that it is still rising.

Also, the racket should be closed roughly 15 degrees at impact, unlike the slice, flat and probably the 'top spin' serve. Details in Junior Twist serve.

I believe that a top spin serve does not have the closed racket of the kick serve that bounces to the right.

High level kick serve.
To advance single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

The saying to 'toss the ball over your head for the kick serve' is misleading because pro servers move their heads forward after they release the toss. But impact should be about over the head. If you can see the ball impact you probably are impacting it too far in front of you.
thanks, that slow mo feature is helpful
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Did you ask him how long he has played? Im sure if he has played 15 years and hits kick for most of his serve plus practices it then he surely has a good kick serve, people even have weird funky technique on serve and get it in so much because they hit it so many times.
I will let you know in 12 years how my kick serve is, so far its decent has good kick and action but inconsistent yet.
 

chrisb

Professional
Good kick serves usually require bending at knees and back to facilitate the racket angle necessary for the kick serve. Many try to get the back bend without the counterbalancing leg movement putting the server off balance and stepping over instead of springing back thus you get an off balance non kick serve I suggest you find a qualified teaching pro to help if this is your problem. The main point is qualified many teach few know IMO
 

samarai

Semi-Pro
i think that if u just started playing and someone teaches u the proper technique for a kick serve then u will catch on pretty quick. For most of us who learn later in life, we usually start
by learning the waiter's tray serve since its the easiest one to get u started. once u use it for a while though its very hard to change to something else no matter how much practice and isntruction u get.
 

chrisb

Professional
If your pro let’s u start waiter serve get rid of him her immediately u will be limited permanently read Braden he might be passed on but his take on serve is still relavent
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
Kick serve took me forever to learn. Not natural for me.

I have Gasquet's serve motion now and I have a much higher serve percentage for 1st and 2nd serves than I used to. Kick serve became better but its not my best shot.

Couldn't tell you why. That upward swing path just didn't completely click for me.
 

PKorda

Professional
Kick serve took me forever to learn. Not natural for me.

I have Gasquet's serve motion now and I have a much higher serve percentage for 1st and 2nd serves than I used to. Kick serve became better but its not my best shot.

Couldn't tell you why. That upward swing path just didn't completely click for me.
That’s exactly it it’s just not clicking after endless amounts of practice. I am going to try a few of the tips given here.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
That’s exactly it it’s just not clicking after endless amounts of practice. I am going to try a few of the tips given here.
You can always have a backup of topspin slice if the pure kick isint working out, which is what I use more often than not anyways. It’s a somewhat aggressive forward toss and doesn’t really require the steep upward trajectory.
 

Traffic

Hall of Fame
This is the best idea - keep practicing kick for BOTH first & second until you master, and then later go back to incorporating a more direct, traditional, first serve.
You know, this is a great tip. But one that most people can't follow. There are several players within my practice group and i have been working with them to develop a rock solid 2nd serve to avoid DF or resorting to lollipop serves. But they just HAVE to try their flat first serves and so they don't get the repetition and they don't get to use this technique in a real world pressure situation.

I've been working on a top spin serve for a very long time and use it for both first and second serve. Slight changes in the toss make the ball do different things.

I will say that I tried a topspin serve back in high school when Michael Chang was playing. I figured if it was good enough for him, then it's good enough for me. Now, I'm sure my technique sucked. But it did get me into the general motion. Then as an adult, it was 5 sessions with a pro to help dial things in. I may re-visit him a couple more times to try to get the kick to have more action.
 

PKorda

Professional
You can always have a backup of topspin slice if the pure kick isint working out, which is what I use more often than not anyways. It’s a somewhat aggressive forward toss and doesn’t really require the steep upward trajectory.
Maybe I should redirect my efforts to that I dunno I almost feel like it’s my life mission at this point
 

lim

Professional
Kick wide on the ad side is one of my favorite serves. It should help if you imagine the motion as THROWING the racquet upwards as hard as you can. This is the big difference between flat/slice swing path versus the kick. You will be aiming UP at your target and you will need tremendous RHS if you want to get enough shape on the ball. For flat/slice you are coming DOWN/ACROSS the ball
 

landcookie

Semi-Pro
What are the loading mechanics specific to a kick serve?
I don't think there are specifics to the kick serve, but a tendency one way or another may impede the ability to hit kicks. That's been my personal experience anyway. For me, it's back leg loading and application of force vertically.

I'm no pro so I won't pretend to know what I'm talking about. But this guy does, check him out: https://kovacsacademy.com/2020/05/08/a-quick-example-of-a-very-brief-video-analysis-of-the-serve/
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
.................................You will be aiming UP at your target and you will need tremendous RHS if you want to get enough shape on the ball. For flat/slice you are coming DOWN/ACROSS the ball

Videos show what is happening. The racket rises to a peak for the slice, flat and kick serve. But the ball is impacted lower in that rise for the kick serve, when the racket head is still rising faster. The flat and slice serves have the racket still rising a little or at peak. The chest faces more to the side but not 'to the side'. That description I believe is what you will find in high speed videos plus a lot more. See videos of 240 fps or more with small motion blur.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Played a guy tonight with a wicked kick serve, hits it both as a first and second. I've been trying to hit a decent kick half my life. At end of match I ask him for tips, and he says just toss the ball a little behind you and swing up as if it was making toast. He couldn't comprehend this being difficult. So why is it so easy for some people?
By "wicked kick" are you referring to a Twist serve (aka American twist)? This is the type of kick serve that has a dramatic directional change when it bounces.

Many people can hit a kick serve that bounces high but does not exhibit much of a directional change when it bounces. To get the ball to kick up, it must approach the court at a steep angle. There are two ways to accomplish this.

One way is to hit a high-arcing serve. Some call this the lob kick. For this serve, the ball hits the court, with decent (vertical) speed, at a steep angle.

Another way to achieve a high bounce is to hit a topspin or topspin-slice serve with enough topspin to cause the ball to dive into the court at a steep angle. (These serves can have a moderate speed but usually need a high spin-to-speed ratio).

In order to achieve the dramatic directional change, seen on the Twist serve, a topspin-slice serve be hit with a very high spin rate. A very high RPM ball will acquire spiral spin as it flies through the air. If the ball has a generous amount of spiral spin when it bounces, a traumatic directional change will occur.

If you are not getting much directional change on your kick serves, you are not brushing fast enough. You need to achieve that distinctive / telltale fast-brush sound when you contact the ball. In order to do this, you need to contact the ball a few inches lower than you normally would. And then brush up very quickly.

If you come across this guy or someone else with a good twist action on their kick serve, closely listen to the sound of the ball-string interaction. If you can't get that sound, you will not get the twist action on your kick serves.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
@PKorda
I’m glad I made this video for you as funnily enough I noticed watching it that I myself don’t do what I’m telling you to do!
One of the three tips that I mention: low contact point so that your racket can continue going up after contact which is crucial in terms of being able to brush the ball up and to the side. Apparently I’m hitting the ball pretty much at the end of my reach hence ending up hitting more of a slice serve rather than a proper kicking one.
Anyway I just wanted to demonstrate my points. Especially the progression exercise at the beginning holding the racket pretty close to its throat is quite helpful imo. Give it a go.


 
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dahcovixx

Professional
@PKorda
I’m glad I made this video for you as funnily enough I noticed watching it that I myself don’t do what I’m telling you to do!
One of the three tips that I mention: low contact point so that your racket can continue going up after contact which is crucial in terms of being able to brush the ball up and to the side. Apparently I’m hitting the ball pretty much at the end of my reach hence ending up hitting more of a slice serve rather than a proper kicking one.
Anyway I just wanted to demonstrate my points. Especially the progression exercise at the beginning holding the racket pretty close to its throat is quite helpful imo. Give it a go.



Is that a trysis 260?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
@PKorda
I’m glad I made this video for you as funnily enough I noticed watching it that I myself don’t do what I’m telling you to do!
One of the three tips that I mention: low contact point so that your racket can continue going up after contact which is crucial in terms of being able to brush the ball up and to the side. Apparently I’m hitting the ball pretty much at the end of my reach hence ending up hitting more of a slice serve rather than a proper kicking one.
Anyway I just wanted to demonstrate my points. Especially the progression exercise at the beginning holding the racket pretty close to its throat is quite helpful imo. Give it a go.



I have said that the contact is "lower" but that needs more qualifications regarding the absolute height.

For a kick serve, the racket head strings must be rising while impacting the ball for adding the top spin to the kick serve.

Impacting the ball before the racket has reached its peak is necessary. This is observed in high speed videos.

But that rising can be performed at various heights that are not necessarily 'lower' in actual height.

How can we impact the ball while the strings are still rising? Here are 3 different ways to do it.
1) Lower Height of Impact Relative to Flat or Slice Serves. Use the same ISR service motion and jump and let the ball fall down roughly 6"? lower than for a slice or flat serve.
2) Raise Racket Height Path Relative to Flat or Slice Serves. Use a similar ISR service motion, but instead of having the arm tilt to the side as for a flat or slice serve, have the arm more vertical and hit the ball more above your head. This might tend to retain the same ISR motion but impact the racket before it has risen near peak. The absolute height would be higher than for #1. The arm is observed in videos to be more vertical for the kick serve and the ball is impacted above the head.
3) Raise Racket Height Path Relative to Flat or Slice Serves. Jump higher and use the same service motion that the part of the motion with the rising racket is elevated. The absolute height for impact may be the same as for a flat or slice serve.

The ball impact relative to the ISR motion racket path has to be lower, but relative to absolute height there are options from jumping height and arm angle. Some players may jump higher and elevate the ISR racket head path. Others may make their arm more vertical, and others may let the ball fall down farther. Each individual server may be different. ? (Note - when the racket is still rising it also is pointing more to the left. To align the racket face for impact the chest points more to the side as seen in videos from above. That seems to be what is going on. ? )

To make sense out of this for the ATP pros you would have to have many measurements of how various players hit confirmed kick serves.

To illustrate some of these points here is how an individual server adjusts for a kick or slice serve. Toly GIFs.
Look at the arm angle and the actual height of impact (relative to the net). The racket peak is not quite shown but it is approaching the base line as a reference. Notice the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle at impact. Distance on my screen between net and ball 7 mm.
Kick-Serve-Contact-Wrist-Ulnar-Deviation.gif


Look at the actual height of impact relative to the net and the racket's peak height. Look at the arm tilt angle. Notice the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle at impact. Distance on my screen between net and ball 16 mm.
Slice-Serve-Contact-Ulnar-Deviation-CIMG0532---Copy-GIF.gif


From this comparison the player appears to have elevated the arm for the kick serve and let the ball drop down farther for impact. The forearm to racket shaft angle has to present and used, so it is not an option for adjusting height. We don't have statistics for other players or additional measurements for this player. The two videos were taken with similar camera angles so these comparisons are pretty accurate.

If we were observing the angular rotation of ISR from start to impact we might find that it is less for the kick serve and that is maybe why the chest has to be more turned to the right at impact - to get the correct right-left aim.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
I have said that the contact is "lower" but that needs more qualifications regarding the absolute height.

For a kick serve, the racket head strings must be rising while impacting the ball for adding the top spin to the kick serve's spin vector.

Impacting the ball before the racket has reached its peak is necessary. This is observed in high speed videos.

But that rising can be performed at various heights that are not necessarily 'lower' in actual height.

How can we impact the ball while the strings are still rising? Here are 3 different ways to do it.
1) Lower Height of Impact Relative to Flat or Slice Serves. Use the same ISR service motion and jump and let the ball fall down roughly 6"? lower than for a slice or flat serve.
2) Raise Racket Height Path Relative to Flat or Slice Serves. Use a similar ISR service motion and instead of having the arm tilt to the side as for a flat or slice serve have it more vertical and hit the ball more above your head. This might tend to retain the same ISR motion but catch the racket before it has risen near peak. The absolute height would be higher than for #1. The arm is observed to be more vertical for the kick serve and the ball is impacted above the head.
3) Raise Racket Height Path Relative to Flat or Slice Serves. Jump higher and use the same service motion that the part of the motion with the rising racket is elevated. The absolute height for impact may be the same as for a flat or slice serve.

The ball impact relative to the ISR motion racket path has to be lower, but relative to absolute height there are options from jumping height and arm angle. Some players may jump higher and elevate the ISR racket head path. Others may make their arm more vertical, and others may let the ball fall down farther. Each individual server may be different. ?

To illustrate some of these points here is how an individual server adjusts for a kick or slice serve
You forgot something: Toss the ball lower and hit it close to apex of the toss. Either this or higher toss and wait for the ball to drop. I'm not sure which one to go with. It's probably a personal preference. I'll try both and see how I go.
 
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Cashman

Hall of Fame
The kicker tends to expose technique problems that are less obvious when hitting other types of serve. If you have good technique (toss, knee bend, pronation etc) a kicker should be reasonably easy to execute.

That said - you need a hell of a lot of racquet head speed to hit a kicker well, and rec players are overly enamoured with it. For every good kicker I’ve come across, there’s been two weak-ass ones that I’ve eaten for lunch.

Sometimes you are just better off with a really good slice and flat serve.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
You forgot something: Toss the ball lower and hit it close to apex of the toss. Either this or higher toss and wait for the ball to drop. I'm not sure which one to go with. It's probably a personal preference. I'll try both and see how I go.

Good point.

Interesting, I don't believe that players can hit the ball over their heads as they are doing for the kick serve and still be able to see it for impact. If you are able to experiment with that, let us know about the ball viewing issues. The ball at peak should stay near one place but you will have to start moving immediately to hit it.
 
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sredna42

Hall of Fame
That’s exactly it it’s just not clicking after endless amounts of practice. I am going to try a few of the tips given here.
I remember, the kick serve was this "mysterious" thing that I heard talked about (I was a beginner).
I was at the courts practicing serves. trying to learn a slice serve. I was watching a Crunch time coaching video courtside while taking a rest, the one where he shows you the skipping the rock drill, just learning that aggressive swatting motion that you cut the side of the ball with.
The idea in the drill was to start down low, then work up to the proper angle.

It occurred to me that a kick serve is the same thing. Just an aggressive swat upward at the ball (instead of across the side as he was showing for slice).
I was kicking the ball in mere minutes.

Worry about the details later.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I know. Had a feeling something was not right. Then realised watching the video. Pretty funny though. I say lower contact as a tip!

The toss not being low enough is the reason you are getting slice but its not the cause of the problem, the problem is you can't hit the ball lower because your toss is too much to the right.

See compared to Thiem and Roger, and even if you imagine yourself at the location where you toss the ball, can you imagine yourself getting the ball lower and having the racquet at such a sideways angle with this toss? Its not possible, unless ur arm is WAY out right in a uncomfortable position.

CCC.jpg
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I remember, the kick serve was this "mysterious" thing that I heard talked about (I was a beginner).
I was at the courts practicing serves. trying to learn a slice serve. I was watching a Crunch time coaching video courtside while taking a rest, the one where he shows you the skipping the rock drill, just learning that aggressive swatting motion that you cut the side of the ball with.
The idea in the drill was to start down low, then work up to the proper angle.

It occurred to me that a kick serve is the same thing. Just an aggressive swat upward at the ball (instead of across the side as he was showing for slice).
I was kicking the ball in mere minutes.

Worry about the details later.

I don't think its the same, I think slicing it more up is more of a topspin slice, a very high topspin serve what bounces slightly higher but not a true kick that explodes to the right after the bounce.
 
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