Why is everyone born after 1990 really bad on Grass ??? Any specific reason ???

Sunny014

Legend
I have come to the conclusion that Novak does deserve 7-8 Wimbledons overall.
He doesn't necessarily have to be as good as peak Fed or peak Sampras to win as many slams as them on grass.
He is good enough according to the modern day Grass in the era where people younger to him are trash, so this means he himself escaped their same fate that could have been his if he did not seek help from Boris Becker ... right ???

So why are these guys after 1990 not seeking help from grass court legends or are they incapable and is Grass court tennis dead ???? :unsure:

Maybe Wimbledon should change their courts to Hard Courts or Clay now, Grass seems useless since nobody knows to play on it ??? or is it because of the grass court season being so less that players find it useless ???
 
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NAS

Hall of Fame
I have come to the conclusion that Novak does deserve 7-8 Wimbledons overall.
He doesn't necessarily have to be as good as peak Fed or peak Sampras to win as many slams as them on grass.
He is good enough according to the modern day Grass in the era where people younger to him are trash, so this means he himself escaped their same fate that could have been his if he did not seek help from Boris Becker ... right ???

So why are these guys after 1990 not seeking help or are they incapable and is Grass court tennis dead ???? :unsure:
Nobody is incapable, it is that they don't play on grass.
Take Alsan example, in his whole career this year he played atp level first grass match.
Problem is Wimbledon specialty is grass but there are not many grass court left.
Wimbledon because of its tradition don't want to update it( they should never update it).
If children or players don't play on grass unless they become pro, how will be they good on grass.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Nobody is incapable, it is that they don't play on grass.
Take Alsan example, in his whole career this year he played atp level first grass match.
Problem is Wimbledon specialty is grass but there are not many grass court left.
Wimbledon because of its tradition don't want to update it( they should never update it).
If children or players don't play on grass unless they become pro, how will be they good on grass.
Why doesn't ATP introduce more tournaments and promote grass courts?
Not even a single masters on Grass

Looks like the ATP is being run by uneducated idiots
 

Sunny014

Legend
Novak is crossing Federer now because of his turnaround on grass, had he remained the same as he was in 2012 then he would not have won much wimbledons to add to his 2011, maybe 1 or 2, he would have been on 17 slams today for sure...
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Why doesn't ATP introduce more tournaments and promote grass courts?
Not even a single masters on Grass

Looks like the ATP is being run by uneducated idiots
Atp at best can have one master but how will it help? You play master when you are are top 50 but what about grass skills.
It is not easy to have grass court in warm conditions, tennis has become global, most players are coming from places where there is no grass court so why because of your preference, you want those players to have disadvantage.
atp don't look after courts in Argentina or India and neither their climate allow grass court
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Right now hc is most neutral surface and that is why competition at hc can never go down apart from one odd year
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Novak is crossing Federer now because of his turnaround on grass, had he remained the same as he was in 2012 then he would not have won much wimbledons to add to his 2011, maybe 1 or 2, he would have been on 17 slams today for sure...
But he got one of the most toughest hc and clay era so kind of balance out.
Even now when people claim weak era he has to play excellent Zverev and magnificent Med back to back to win slam.
Same in AO, he faced Tiafoe( tough for 2nd round), Raonic who played good in 4 th round and then Zverev in qf who nearly took him out with 20 match streak Med in final
 

Sunny014

Legend
Atp at best can have one master but how will it help? You play master when you are are top 50 but what about grass skills.
It is not easy to have grass court in warm conditions, tennis has become global, most players are coming from places where there is no grass court so why because of your preference, you want those players to have disadvantage.
atp don't look after courts in Argentina or India and neither their climate allow grass court
Tennis is a costly sport and so it can afford grass lawns, we have grass courts in India as well. Might not be of the best quality grass like Wimbledon but it is something to work on. Masters on Grass will help, more incentive to score points to end up 1, the players will put more effort in it.
 

Sunny014

Legend
But he got one of the most toughest hc and clay era so kind of balance out.
Even now when people claim weak era he has to play excellent Zverev and magnificent Med back to back to win slam.
Same in AO, he faced Tiafoe( tough for 2nd round), Raonic who played good in 4 th round and then Zverev in qf who nearly took him out with 20 match streak Med in final
HC era is fine, it was tough but he is a hardcourter so it should not be a problem.
Clay was tougher for Federer because of peak Bull who was much younger to him, but Novak too did not have it very easy either.
But Grass was tougher for Federer due to this slow nonsense while Novak has no rivals below on grass which is bad, if youngsters had played good on grass like HCs then I would not complain. Grass is a big concern since many years, at least since 2014-2015, Fed and Novak were the only guys really good on it, rest all have been trash and that is not good.
 
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NAS

Hall of Fame
I say go back to the old less durable grass before 2002, before the rye grass. The one where the bounces become dead in week 2. These young guys will then figure out how to volley or Cressey will be a slam finalist.
They will not learn volley for one tournament, it will be lottery winner every year
 

Sunny014

Legend
To think that Novak only needs one Wimbledon title to match Sampras, crazy.
Poor Sampras

He must be even angrier than Federer right now after looking at the state of Grass court tennis

He cannot express his anger because he is a nice guy and mostly it would look like "sour grapes", so he is just not commenting in -ve sense.
 

Sunny014

Legend
If I was Sampras then I would have made comments like Wilander/Becker/Pat Cash types about Grass without worrying about what people will think about me.
Plus I would have coached some youngsters like Sascha/Kyrgios types who have an affinity to Grasss or done something about it, would have tried to coach an american who has potential..... something should have been done or just sit around and see your legacy being eroded :D
 

Sunny014

Legend
Shapovalov has real potential on grass if he wasn't such a mental midget in tight moments.
He needs a good coach.
Why is he not moving out of his comfort zone?
Who is his coach now? Youzhny ?? He himself was a journeyman in his time.
 

Sunny014

Legend
because they are still young and the prestige just isnt the same, look at queens
Young how?
Federer, Hewitt, Roddick, Murray, Nadal were all great on grass by 22
What excuses do Stefanos 23, Zverev 24 and Medvedev 25 the current have for being so trash there for so many years ?
What excuses does Thiem have?? He is 28 or so...
 

InsideOut900

Hall of Fame
So why are these guys after 1990 not seeking help from grass court legends or are they incapable and is Grass court tennis dead ???? :unsure:
The only times these guys played on grass is when they visited their grandparents at the countryside.

The technical reasons why I think they suck on grass?

1) Footwork: while it's not intuitive, grass is the surface that has the most demanding footwork out there because the ball bounces in a less predictable way compared to HCs, thus requiring better microsteps management

Past players managed to cut that disadvantage by coming into the net, but modern grass is all baseline and Next Genners don't move well on it at all

2) They take too much time to swing/lack offensive weapons:
While the slowdown of grass made it more powerhitting friendly, you still benefit from taking the ball early and Tsitsipas/Thiem/Zverev take it too late, while Medvedev doesn't generate enough power
It's enough to compare footage of Hewitt/Murray vs Medvedev or peak Tsonga vs Zverev to realize the differences
Heck, someone of Djokovic's caliber, who was very good on fast HC during 2007-2010 wasn't able to transition on grass nearly as well

3) Return of serve: it's a bit arguable if their return is really worse on grass compared to other surfaces, but that's a clear disadvantage for Tsitsipas and Thiem at least
 

Sunny014

Legend
The only times these guys played on grass is when they visited their grandparents at the countryside.

The technical reasons why I think they suck on grass?

1) Footwork: while it's not intuitive, grass is the surface that has the most demanding footwork out there because the ball bounces in a less predictable way compared to HCs, thus requiring better microsteps management

Past players managed to cut that disadvantage by coming into the net, but modern grass is all baseline and Next Genners don't move well on it at all

2) They take too much time to swing/lack offensive weapons:
While the slowdown of grass made it more powerhitting friendly, you still benefit from taking the ball early and Tsitsipas/Thiem/Zverev take it too late, while Medvedev doesn't generate enough power
It's enough to compare footage of Hewitt/Murray vs Medvedev or peak Tsonga vs Zverev to realize the differences
Heck, someone of Djokovic's caliber, who was very good on fast HC during 2007-2010 wasn't able to transition on grass nearly as well

3) Return of serve: it's a bit arguable if their return is really worse on grass compared to other surfaces, but that's a clear disadvantage for Tsitsipas and Thiem at least
True
I too noticed that youngsters are taking lot of time to swing, even Medvedev is somewhat late but he manages to hurry it in the last moment, others you mentioned are very slow.
I think only Felix and Shapo have some grass affinity, everyone else might be garbage. Nd of course Berretini is there too, he is a modern version of good ol Raonic/Philipoussis, old wine in new bottle.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Nobody is incapable, it is that they don't play on grass.
Take Alsan example, in his whole career this year he played atp level first grass match.
Problem is Wimbledon specialty is grass but there are not many grass court left.
Wimbledon because of its tradition don't want to update it( they should never update it).
If children or players don't play on grass unless they become pro, how will be they good on grass.
Edberg and Becker grew up on clay yet were still amazing on grass. Sampras hated the grass first few years of the tour but then became a monster on it.

Modern players are mostly a bunch of 1D baseline robots without hands or shotmaking to contend on grass (someone like Nadal is head and shoulders above next-gen in that regard). "They don't play on grass much" is a cop-out, if they had skills that transition well to the surface, they would have had success on it.
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Edberg and Becker grew up on clay yet were still amazing on grass. Sampras hated the grass first few years of the tour but then became a monster on it.

Modern players are mostly a bunch of 1D baseline robots without hands or shotmaking to contend on grass (someone like Nadal is head and shoulders above next-gen in that regard). "They don't play on grass much" is a cop-out, if they had skills that transition well to the surface, they would have had success on it.
Then why they were not good on clay apart from one odd tournament.
When there are two slam on grass and fast hc, there were more type of grass player, but when your started playing on hc then more good players came on hc.
Of course there were Hewitt and Roddick but see same generation Nalbandian, Safin and other.
Problem is we can't go backside.
Only way is to let them play more, see Berr improved incompared to 2019 and Med looked decent on grass this year.
Not playing in 2020 also affected their progress
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
As they say on Quora, before asking why, ask IF. Is everyone born after 1990 really bad on grass? No, not really. Shapovalov was born in 99 and reached the semis at Wimbledon this year, his best slam result till date. Hurkacz was born in 1997 and also reached the semis (also his best slam result). Berrettini, born in 96, reached the finals. Seb Korda, born in 2000, played in Wimbledon for the first time this year and reached the fourth round, losing in a really long five setter to Khachanov (also born after 1990). Felix reached the QF this year and has also played the Stuttgart finals twice at this point.

You're going to say that's just a handful. Well, it was already getting to be like that by the end of the 90s. That's kind of why Rafter made three semis in a row at Wimbledon from 99 to 01 and why Henman got to semi from 98 to 02, an even longer streak. It was partly how good they were on grass but partly also how much the whole LatAm and Spanish contingent sucked on grass (and who otherwise filled up the ranks of the top players, especially in the week after RG). Most players play most of their tennis on hard court so only a handful have skills that translate to good results on grass.
 

spottishwood

Semi-Pro
As they say on Quora, before asking why, ask IF. Is everyone born after 1990 really bad on grass? No, not really. Shapovalov was born in 99 and reached the semis at Wimbledon this year, his best slam result till date. Hurkacz was born in 1997 and also reached the semis (also his best slam result). Berrettini, born in 96, reached the finals. Seb Korda, born in 2000, played in Wimbledon for the first time this year and reached the fourth round, losing in a really long five setter to Khachanov (also born after 1990). Felix reached the QF this year and has also played the Stuttgart finals twice at this point.

You're going to say that's just a handful. Well, it was already getting to be like that by the end of the 90s. That's kind of why Rafter made three semis in a row at Wimbledon from 99 to 01 and why Henman got to semi from 98 to 02, an even longer streak. It was partly how good they were on grass but partly also how much the whole LatAm and Spanish contingent sucked on grass (and who otherwise filled up the ranks of the top players, especially in the week after RG). Most players play most of their tennis on hard court so only a handful have skills that translate to good results on grass.

Ask this dude why he sucked on grass :p
 

wangs78

Hall of Fame
I have come to the conclusion that Novak does deserve 7-8 Wimbledons overall.
He doesn't necessarily have to be as good as peak Fed or peak Sampras to win as many slams as them on grass.
He is good enough according to the modern day Grass in the era where people younger to him are trash, so this means he himself escaped their same fate that could have been his if he did not seek help from Boris Becker ... right ???

So why are these guys after 1990 not seeking help from grass court legends or are they incapable and is Grass court tennis dead ???? :unsure:

Maybe Wimbledon should change their courts to Hard Courts or Clay now, Grass seems useless since nobody knows to play on it ??? or is it because of the grass court season being so less that players find it useless ???
It’s simple. The younger players ARE TOO TALL to play well on grass, especially since S&V is no longer a viable strategy.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Then why they were not good on clay apart from one odd tournament.
Because they didn't have gifts that translate well to clay compared to other surfaces which is my point basically (granted Edberg almost won FO and Becker reached 3 FO semis). Young players aren't inept on grass because they didn't grow up on it but because they're one dimensional baseline bashers with brick hands. If they were actually complete players they would be much better on grass regardless of how much they played on the surface otherwise.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Because they didn't have gifts that translate well to clay compared to other surfaces which is my point basically (granted Edberg almost won FO and Becker reached 3 FO semis). Young players aren't inept on grass because they didn't grow up on it but because they're one dimensional baseline bashers with brick hands. If they were actually complete players they would be much better on grass regardless of how much they played on the surface otherwise.
But it's not true that younger players are specifically bad on grass. I have given a number of examples in my comment and I find it interesting how everyone is skipping right past it so they can stick to the narrative they believe in. I mean, you can say Berrettini is just generally not an amazing player but that's entirely different from saying he is particularly bad on grass (which he's not, it's the only one where he made a final). What is true is neither of Medvedev, Zverev or Tsitsipas (the three best ones from the younger players) are too comfortable on grass. Doesn't mean that holds good for Shapovalov, FAA, Hurkacz, Korda.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
But it's not true that younger players are specifically bad on grass. I have given a number of examples in my comment and I find it interesting how everyone is skipping right past it so they can stick to the narrative they believe in. I mean, you can say Berrettini is just generally not an amazing player but that's entirely different from saying he is particularly bad on grass (which he's not, it's the only one where he made a final). What is true is neither of Medvedev, Zverev or Tsitsipas (the three best ones from the younger players) are too comfortable on grass. Doesn't mean that holds good for Shapovalov, FAA, Hurkacz, Korda.
I'm mainly talking about players I consider to be slam contenders/heirs to the big 3 throne of the younger group (Med, Tsits, Zverev). Maybe Shapo and Felix are as well based on potential but both are complete mental midgets.

Regarding Berrettini, I just can't see a guy with that movement and BH winning a slam, even if he already reached a slam final. But sure, he's atleast as good on grass or even better than other surfaces.
 
They still do have grass courts in australia don't they? Can any Australian confirm?
Yes indeed. We do still have grass courts in Australia.

Most of the grass courts are located in Melbourne and in Perth.

I am located in Victoria so I am most familiar with the ones located in Melbourne. Kooyong Tennis Club has the most grass courts in Melbourne. Royal South Yarra Lawn Tennis Club also has grass courts. Apart from those two clubs, grass courts are far and few. You will find the odd one here and there if you know where to look.

Keep in mind, the grass courts are playable from October to February / April due to the weather conditions. The Autumn, Winter and early Spring periods are not suitable for grass court play in many parts of southern Australia mainly due to weather. Wet conditions do not permit play on grass of course.

During December and January - the hottest and driest periods, there are many grass court tournaments conducted throughout Victoria and Southern NSW at regional and country venues. But the courts are not permanent courts. They are played at venues with large areas of suitable grass that can be configured with dozens of courts. It is not unusual for a tournament to host 20, 30 or even 40 marked out grass courts for use.

Due to the Australian Open being moved from grass to Hard Court, most tennis clubs in SE Australia focus on having either hard courts or synthetic grass courts nowdays.

However, there is a huge number of tennis clubs in Melbourne that have En Tout Cas (crushed rock clay) courts which are an excellent all weather surface that can be used all year round regardless of the weather. In Melbourne, most junior development is now done on En Tout Cas.

Melbourne also has some venues with Italian Red Clay and Swiss Red Clay surfaces. Unfortunately, they are very high maintenance because Melbourne is a very windy place at times. Wind tends to blow the top surface of fine clay particles away. En Tout Cas courts are much less affected by wind because the surface particles are larger / heavier.

Over time, more and more clubs are replacing their older surfaces with Synthetic Grass which is easier of the body - older members love that. They are also much easier to lay and maintain. And they can continue to be used in most weather conditions.

As a side note ... the former Australian tennis player, Paul McNamee, mentioned in his autobiography that back in the mid 1980s, once Tennis Australia decided to move the AO from Kooyong to Flinders Park, the intention was to move the AO tournament to Synthetic Grass surface. McNamee did not like that idea. He wanted fast Hard Courts. So he rounded up a whole heap of the elite players who indicated they would boyoctt the AO if it was on Synthetic Grass - no other Pro. tournaments were played on Synthetic Grass. This would have placed the AO's Grand Slam status in jeopardy.

So it was decided to move the surface to Hard Courts and Rebound Ace was eventually chosen. Since then it has moved to Plexicushion Prestige. And now it is GreenSet Cushioned Acrylic.

We still wonder if moving to Hard Courts rather than SG was the right decision. Australian players probably would have had a much greater chance of winning the AO because they would have had a home court advantage over the international players. However, the risk of the AO losing its Grand Slam status was too high at the time the decision was made.

The AO was never going to remain as a grass court tournament because the Flinders Park Tennis Centre was intended to be used all year round as a tennis facility. Grass courts can't be used all year round in Melbourne.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I'm mainly talking about players I consider to be slam contenders/heirs to the big 3 throne of the younger group (Med, Tsits, Zverev). Maybe Shapo and Felix are as well based on potential but both are complete mental midgets.

Regarding Berrettini, I just can't see a guy with that movement and BH winning a slam, even if he already reached a slam final. But sure, he's atleast as good on grass or even better than other surfaces.
Again, that's a completely different argument and not even one I disagree with. I am just saying those guys aren't specifically bad on grass vis a vis other surfaces. The trio otherwise vying for slams is the culprit as all three struggle on grass.
 

spottishwood

Semi-Pro
Yes indeed. We do still have grass courts in Australia.

Most of the grass courts are located in Melbourne and in Perth.

I am located in Victoria so I am most familiar with the ones located in Melbourne. Kooyong Tennis Club has the most grass courts in Melbourne. Royal South Yarra Lawn Tennis Club also has grass courts. Apart from those two clubs, grass courts are far and few. You will find the odd one here and there if you know where to look.

Keep in mind, the grass courts are playable from October to February / April due to the weather conditions. The Autumn, Winter and early Spring periods are not suitable for grass court play in many parts of southern Australia mainly due to weather. Wet conditions do not permit play on grass of course.

During December and January - the hottest and driest periods, there are many grass court tournaments conducted throughout Victoria and Southern NSW at regional and country venues. But the courts are not permanent courts. They are played at venues with large areas of suitable grass that can be configured with dozens of courts. It is not unusual for a tournament to host 20, 30 or even 40 marked out grass courts for use.

Due to the Australian Open being moved from grass to Hard Court, most tennis clubs in SE Australia focus on having either hard courts or synthetic grass courts nowdays.

However, there is a huge number of tennis clubs in Melbourne that have En Tout Cas (crushed rock clay) courts which are an excellent all weather surface that can be used all year round regardless of the weather. In Melbourne, most junior development is now done on En Tout Cas.

Melbourne also has some venues with Italian Red Clay and Swiss Red Clay surfaces. Unfortunately, they are very high maintenance because Melbourne is a very windy place at times. Wind tends to blow the top surface of fine clay particles away. En Tout Cas courts are much less affected by wind because the surface particles are larger / heavier.

Over time, more and more clubs are replacing their older surfaces with Synthetic Grass which is easier of the body - older members love that. They are also much easier to lay and maintain. And they can continue to be used in most weather conditions.

As a side note ... the former Australian tennis player, Paul McNamee, mentioned in his autobiography that back in the mid 1980s, once Tennis Australia decided to move the AO from Kooyong to Flinders Park, the intention was to move the AO tournament to Synthetic Grass surface. McNamee did not like that idea. He wanted fast Hard Courts. So he rounded up a whole heap of the elite players who indicated they would boyoctt the AO if it was on Synthetic Grass - no other Pro. tournaments were played on Synthetic Grass. This would have placed the AO's Grand Slam status in jeopardy.

So it was decided to move the surface to Hard Courts and Rebound Ace was eventually chosen. Since then it has moved to Plexicushion Prestige. And now it is GreenSet Cushioned Acrylic.

We still wonder if moving to Hard Courts rather than SG was the right decision. Australian players probably would have had a much greater chance of winning the AO because they would have had a home court advantage over the international players. However, the risk of the AO losing its Grand Slam status was too high at the time the decision was made.

The AO was never going to remain as a grass court tournament because the Flinders Park Tennis Centre was intended to be used all year round as a tennis facility. Grass courts can't be used all year round in Melbourne.
Thanks for clarification man. You must have put great effort in writing this.
 
Santana is generally attributed as the first tennis player to utter the "Grass is for cows" description.

Many players have repeated since. As an Australian fan of the sport, for me the most memorable one was this one ...


Loved Vilas. He was a great player of his era. He and Borg were two really cool dude tennis players.
 

Sunny014

Legend
For a clay courter Nadal moved exceptionally well on grass, or maybe by anybody's standards Nadal moved great

The guys born after him need to learn a lot from him
 

hofshot

New User
Young how?
Federer, Hewitt, Roddick, Murray, Nadal were all great on grass by 22
What excuses do Stefanos 23, Zverev 24 and Medvedev 25 the current have for being so trash there for so many years ?
What excuses does Thiem have?? He is 28 or so...
*they are underdeveloped, its not the same prestige to win everyother tournament besides SW
 

goldengate14

Semi-Pro
I have come to the conclusion that Novak does deserve 7-8 Wimbledons overall.
He doesn't necessarily have to be as good as peak Fed or peak Sampras to win as many slams as them on grass.
He is good enough according to the modern day Grass in the era where people younger to him are trash, so this means he himself escaped their same fate that could have been his if he did not seek help from Boris Becker ... right ???

So why are these guys after 1990 not seeking help from grass court legends or are they incapable and is Grass court tennis dead ???? :unsure:

Maybe Wimbledon should change their courts to Hard Courts or Clay now, Grass seems useless since nobody knows to play on it ??? or is it because of the grass court season being so less that players find it useless ???
Perhaps because there is one big rent on grass per season so career wise grass is irrelevant now. Which is a crying shame
 

crimson87

New User
We need more grass tournaments for specialists to develop. Imagine RFs numbers with a proper grass court season (2 Masters 1000) Ideally:

Jan through feb: Oceania/Asia hardcourt season (2 Masters 1000 + ATP 500 and 250)
March: Australian Open

End of March through June: Clay court season - Starting in South America and then the 3 Masters in Europe + FO

Late June through end of August: Grass court season 2 Masters 1000 + Halle, London and Hertogenbosch

September through October: American hardcourt season - IW+ Miami + US Open among others.

November/December: Indoor season between the US and Asia with the Masters swapping locations.
 

Fabresque

Hall of Fame
Most if not all 90’s born players have their first grass tournament at Queens, Halle, or even Wimbledon. It’s very rare to see them play any futures or challengers on grass. It’s such a small portion of the schedule, most of them have never played on the surface growing up, and it’s so much more practical to go to a HC or clay event where you’re more comfortable and pick up much needed points rather than go to a grass tournament for the first time and just wing it.
 
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