Razer
G.O.A.T.
Becker and Stich were not poor, cmon
Why is Germany so bad at Tennis?
- Thread starter Hyde
- Start date
Becker and Stich were not poor, cmon
I was kidding about Graf being somewhat disinterested in romance during her career. But to answer your question, there was no interest whatsoever but at the time there was no internet, so you never know
I can tell you though that I personally was infatuated with her
That was an epic answer!
atatu
Legend
Yeah, that's a terrible trade. Fritz is better than Zverev already and Shelton is heading that way.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
I was kidding about Graf being somewhat disinterested in romance during her career. But to answer your question, there was no interest whatsoever but at the time there was no internet, so you never know
I can tell you though that I personally was infatuated with her
Do you think Steffi should have married Becker instead of methhead Baldie Agassi ?
KantenKlaar
Hall of Fame
Oh yes
Becker has aged very badly and he was unable to keep it in his pants, so I would say, no.
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
lol
lol absolutely not.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
I am asking this because they are all of the same age range, so it is possible that Becker and Stich would be attracted towards her, Becker would even have tried his luck.. It seems Graf did not give into any attempts from him
"Steffi Graf fascinated me, it wasn’t the infantile falling in love of a teenager" - When Boris Becker opened up about his 'deep affection' for compatriot
Boris Becker once opened up about his admiration for compatriot Steffi Graf, which began during their early days of training together.
www.sportskeeda.com
RS
Bionic Poster
I feel like if Germany really wanted they could have got even one or 2 more.
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
Brazil is still 13-5 against Germany and also more successful overall apart from WC.
RSJfan
Legend
By that measure we had 100% English-speaking ATP slam winners since the open era began, except for one. Everyone but Vamos.
True, but the 7-1 is a bit like Federer’s 40-15, too embarrassing.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I am asking this because they are all of the same age range, so it is possible that Becker and Stich would be attracted towards her, Becker would even have tried his luck.. It seems Graf did not give into any attempts from him
"Steffi Graf fascinated me, it wasn’t the infantile falling in love of a teenager" - When Boris Becker opened up about his 'deep affection' for compatriot
Boris Becker once opened up about his admiration for compatriot Steffi Graf, which began during their early days of training together.
Steffi only preferred bald players (who used to wear wigs).
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Germany is doing very good. The Nicola Pilic academy is where Djokovic trained as a youngster. Zverev has won Olympics gold recently. And he is top 3 in the world.
She was a coldfish by all accounts until she retired.Steffi only preferred bald players (who used to wear wigs).
I think we now have the greatest young talent in mens tennis, he is named Justin Engel, just won his first match on the tour with 16 or 17.
There is infact a long line of great German tennis players, from Otto Froitzheim to Prenn, van Cramm and Henkel, from Bungert and Kuhnke to Becker and Stich, from Cilly Aussem and Hilde Sperling, to Helga Schultze, Helga Niessen, and then to Graf, Kohde, Huber, Kerber and others. After the highpoint of Graf and Becker, when the German Federation earned lots of money, they never really brought up good development programs. They had some good coaches like Bosch, Pilic, but never used them properly. And they make many mistakes in marketing big events like the German International at Hamburg, Rothenbaum or Berlin Rot Weiß. Just ask Stich or Becker..
There is infact a long line of great German tennis players, from Otto Froitzheim to Prenn, van Cramm and Henkel, from Bungert and Kuhnke to Becker and Stich, from Cilly Aussem and Hilde Sperling, to Helga Schultze, Helga Niessen, and then to Graf, Kohde, Huber, Kerber and others. After the highpoint of Graf and Becker, when the German Federation earned lots of money, they never really brought up good development programs. They had some good coaches like Bosch, Pilic, but never used them properly. And they make many mistakes in marketing big events like the German International at Hamburg, Rothenbaum or Berlin Rot Weiß. Just ask Stich or Becker..
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Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Calm down.
It remains to be seen that if a Sinner had been under the aegis of Austria-Germany he would have become the player he is today, perhaps he would not have even played tennis, who can rule it out? perhaps he would have definitively undertaken a career in Alpine skiing? His transfer to the Piatti school in Bordighera when he was still a boy had a decisive impact on his development. Then it is clear that his natural qualities are unquestionable. Returning to the subject, it is hilarious how fans of other historical powers now ask themselves the question, when we Italians have been asking ourselves for about 40 years. Everything that the German tennis movement achieved post-Becker-Graf is gold compared to what tennis was in Italy post-Panatta era, therefore in the decades 80-90-00-10, cushioned only by the generation of women including the various Schiavone, Pennetta, Vinci and Errani. But if we talk about men's tennis for over 40 years we have been in a sort of limbo. No top 10 for over 40 years, that is from Barazzutti 1978 to Fognini 2019. No slam semifinalist from Barazzutti 1978 to Cecchinato 2018, no slam finalist from Panatta 1976 to Berrettini 2021, no finalist in a masters 1000 since they were established, it took Fognini in Monte Carlo 2018 to break the taboo. Throughout this time span there have been seasons that ended with zero titles, especially in the 00-09 decade, before this 2024 the record of titles won in a single season on the main circuit for Italian men's tennis was 7, a record achieved both in 1977 and in 2021, well this year where we have reached 14, Sinner alone has already won 7. Then the relegation to the C series of the Davis Cup at the beginning of the 2000s, years in which there were times when we didn't even have a top 50, sometimes not even a top 80. So that's why I find the reflections of German or British fans hilarious, a few years ago he would have signed with blood to find ourselves in the same situation as German tennis today, we could see a Zverev with binoculars.
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Mainad
Bionic Poster
You said it, she must have a thing for bald men who wore wigsBy all accounts she was going at it hammer and tong with Agassi even before she retired.
Which brings us to the problem: Germany doesn’t produce a lot of solid Tennis players.
In the current ATP Top-100, these are the german players:
3) Zverev
40) Struff
81) Koepfer
84) Altmaier
86) Hanfmann
So only five. And Koepfer, Hanfmann and Altmaier kind of saving this statistic right now with being barely in the Top-100, but it isn’t unuasual for german Tennis (also in past decades) to have like three Top-100 players or something like that. And like I said, Zverev doesn’t even count really, because he is good because of his family, not because of the german system.
Now compare that to countries like France and Spain, who are usually in double-digits in terms of how many Top-100 players they have. With Germany having 1.5 million registered players, and being the most populated country in Europe, it should have much more Top-100 players regularly. I‘m not even talking about slam winners (apart from Becker and Stich, no german male player won a slam post World War II, in WTA, only Graf and Kerber won a slam post World War 2).
And here are the Top-100 german players in WTA:
83) Jule Niemeier
89) Laura Siegemund (age 36)
94) Tatjana Maria (age 37)
That’s it!
This is just embarassing for a country with 1.5 million registered Tennis players.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Sinner is Italian and that's it. What people evidently struggle to understand, and it amazes me even more so in a US forum, i.e. a nation with a conglomerate of races, is that borders and nations were not created by divine grace, but have happened and will almost always happen due to conflicts.
Then obviously a German or an Austrian is free to have more affinities with Sinner than a southern Italian may have, but there is no doubt that Sinner is Italian. As an Italian, I am very close to great American sportsmen and women of Italian immigrants such as Rocky Marciano or Joe Di Maggio, perhaps the two most famous, but this does not mean that I consider them Italian or in any case the pride of the Italian sports movement. Sinner is Italian by passport, he is proud to feel like one, but he is also Italian in tennis terms, given that as I said in the previous comment he also trained in tennis terms in Italy.
I don’t think it’s likely Sinner would be the player he is today if he was raised in the german system.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
Well, you've also had Wade, Barker, and Raducanu. That's not great, but it's something.Lol....you think your're bad at tennis. At least you had Graf, Becker and Stich who notched up 29 Slams between them. Even now you've got the world #3 in Zverev. Maybe you think you should be doing better but try being British, where the modern game was invented, and we have had just the 1 Slam winner and top player in Murray (who also was not a product of our Tennis Association) within the last 4 decades.
It's all relative.
Cage Rattler
Rookie
Too far north .. half the year everyone forced to play indoors on completely different surfaces that are hardly ever used on the tour.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
I agree with all your points but somehow the Czech Republic stamps out women tennis players like movie tickets
Yes, I guess you are right.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
Imo, Boris and any celebrity could do 100x better than Graf and you know men don't care for women's status but beauty when it comes to dating and affair. Men are not hypergamous like women. A male tennis star / celebrity can date a hot lady while she's unemployed but reverse is rarely true for a female star or celebrity
Razer
G.O.A.T.
You said it, she must have a thing for bald men who wore wigs
Is Agassi shorter than her ? Looks like she likes to be dominant in the relationship. Becker was probably too masculine for her taste ? I mean she found Andre a bit more balanced for her taste.
True that..
The Deutsche Tennis Bund certainly has made many mistakes in the the past 30 years, after the Graf-Becker-Stich-era.. There were many struggles and conflicts between ego-driven leading persons and the regional landlords. Much, much money was blown into the air or put into too big headquarters, instead of investing in youth programs and solid training systems. A real supervising tennis director, responsible for German tennis, never existed, although they had good choices with people like Pilic or Stich.. In the 1980s the system worked much better, with competent people like Schönborn, Bosch, Breskvar working as main coaches. Tennis Academies as in the US, France or Spain were not organized in any way. And it was a big marketing mistake, to let Ion Tiriac buy the rights of the Masters event at Hamburg, and transfer it to Madrid. Similarily the big women events at Berlin and Filderstadt regressed in importance.
That said, its possible to produce solid players, but difficult to produce champions. I like the French system, where young players are promoted by good coaches and have good facilities to train. But the success is a bit limited too. After Noah, who won RG once, no male French player has won a slam, and Mary Pierce was imo developed in the US. Spain has produced many good players, but i think, they are pretty lucky to find now a natural successor for their star Nadal. Britain had a high point with Murray, and their system has improved. Maybe now Draper can fill the role of successor. What we have seen in the last years, is a stream of East European players, who were hungry and eager, and went to academies in the US or Spain.
That said, its possible to produce solid players, but difficult to produce champions. I like the French system, where young players are promoted by good coaches and have good facilities to train. But the success is a bit limited too. After Noah, who won RG once, no male French player has won a slam, and Mary Pierce was imo developed in the US. Spain has produced many good players, but i think, they are pretty lucky to find now a natural successor for their star Nadal. Britain had a high point with Murray, and their system has improved. Maybe now Draper can fill the role of successor. What we have seen in the last years, is a stream of East European players, who were hungry and eager, and went to academies in the US or Spain.
You may have a point hereIs Agassi shorter than her ? Looks like she likes to be dominant in the relationship. Becker was probably too masculine for her taste ?
True that..
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Germany before Prussian Bismarck's big military win over France in 1871 was a series of small states. The British Empire at the time wanted France to win, to keep the German states divided and to keep France as Britain's only semi-serious rival in Western Europe. However, the Prussian win and unification of Germany under Prussian rule, led to a big rising industrial power in mainland Europe that by the 1890s was out-producing Britain in terms of industrial output. However, Britain had the huge number of colonies throughout the world (i.e. a quarter of the world's land, including India, and effectively controlling China with the opium trade) in the empire where the sun never set, while Germany had very few colonies, i.e. just a few in Africa, in the Cameroon region. Germany's desire for colonies eventually led to WW1 of course, and why Germany had an "aggressive" character in that war, compared to Britain seeming "defensive" because Britain was happy with the worldwide state of colonies in 1914.Weren't the Prussians German? They actually created the modern nation.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
That's recency bias talking. Fritz has had his best year by far, but no way is he going to become some regular slam finalist or even semifinalist. Zverev is about 6 months older than Fritz, but at least he's been in 8 slam semifinals or better. Fritz has reached that level exactly once.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
They got together just before the 1999 French Open I gather. Both of them went on to win the singles, i.e. Graf's first major win since the 1996 US Open, and Agassi's win completing his career Grand Slam and was his first major win since the 1995 Australian Open. Then they both reached the 1999 Wimbledon singles finals, but both lost that time. Graf had asked McEnroe to be her mixed doubles partner at 1999 Wimbledon, and McEnroe initially refused because he thought that Graf would be too focused on the singles after her recent French Open win. Graf assured McEnroe different. Then Graf pulled out of their 1999 Wimbledon mixed doubles semi final against Jonas Bjorkman and Anna Kournikova, to focus on the singles, leaving McEnroe annoyed.By all accounts she was going at it hammer and tong with Agassi even before she retired.
Graf only played 1 more tournament, I think, and then she surprisingly retired.
Another surprising thing about the 1999 French Open is that Andrei Medvedev was on the point of retirement earlier in 1999, and it was Agassi who talked him out of it.
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
She had a boyfriend before Agassi, a car racer.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Michael Bartels. Wasn't she with Alexander Mronz for a time in the early 1990s as well, the future opponent of Jeff Tarango at 1995 Wimbledon when Tarango exploded and walked off court?
Mainad
Bionic Poster
In McEnroe's book "Serious" he says that the real reason Graf pulled out of their doubles semi at Wimbledon was because she had a date with Agassi. He discovered this later and was annoyed with Graf for a while but later laughed it off and said he forgave her.
Rovesciarete
Hall of Fame
It is key to remember that the Italian federation had a very limited impact on Sinner’s success:
1) Credit must go first to a limited number of persons from his home province, South Tyrol, which has produced a very considerable number of top athletes even in tennis. Seppi and Knapp both had great success on the ATP tour. It also shows how even players which didn’t make it into the top 100, like the Mayr-sisters are important to create more professional environments. Wrote a bit about the local sources of success.
Keep in mind that despite playing little tennis Jannik was a crystal clear and winning which an incredible timing on the ball despite relative few training hours.
2) Piatti knew Sartori well and offered a place in his academy. This part of the story from 13 years onward is well know and it will just post a video:
3) The most important advantage as an Italian is the great number of tournaments on all relevant levels and more so at the lower levels, often on clay. This is severely lacking in some big-money markets like the US and even Germany seems do to little in this regard.
Some tentative conclusions:
- In short push down the barriers of entries for a large numbers of players by giving easier and cheaper access to the world of tennis.
- Don’t try to block private academies which cultivate talented players, try to find at least a decent working relationships.
- Help a good number of promising players not just a few ‘elite’ teenagers, which be very well trained early bloomers.
- Offer a lot of play on clay! Fighting spirit, shotmaking and footwork matter more in the long run than a good serve and big forehand by a big youngster.
- Never copy the Brits or the Americans if not having near absolute proof that they are doing something efficiently
- Study small countries with sustained success, like the Czech instead. Closer and cheaper and they often even speak German.*
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3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Not sure about the Czech Republic and how it’s done there but often thought that a lift off in Team Tennis and a Sky Sports like deal guaranteeing players a decent wage would dramatically improve the game, participation and opportunity. It’s a pipe dream as will never happen, to much of an individual sport for that, but that fantasy would get more people playing and bring it to more people. That was my wistful therapy post
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Yes, that's for sure. The Italian federation had nothing to do with either the discovery or development of Sinner. The Piatti school is completely independent of the federation. While other players more or less the same age as Sinner, such as Musetti, have been monitored by the federation since they were kids. What I meant is that if Sinner had been under the aegis of Austria in a scenario where Alto Adige was still part of Austria we cannot say that he would have become the player he is today. Although the Piatti school does not favor Italian tennis players as it is independent (several world-class non-Italian prospects have passed through there, such as one of the latest cases, Coric), many dynamics in recruitment would have changed.It is key to remember that the Italian federation had a very limited impact on Sinner’s success:
1) Credit must go first to a limited number of persons from his home province, South Tyrol, which has produced a very considerable number of top athletes even in tennis. Seppi and Knapp both had great success on the ATP tour. It also shows how even players which didn’t make it into the top 100, like the Mayr-sisters are important to create more professional environments. Wrote a bit about the local sources of success.
Keep in mind that despite playing little tennis Jannik was a crystal clear and winning which an incredible timing on the ball despite relative few training hours.
2) Piatti knew Sartori well and offered a place in his academy. This part of the story from 13 years onward is well know and it will just post a video:
3) The most important advantage as an Italian is the great number of tournaments on all relevant levels and more so at the lower levels, often on clay. This is severely lacking in some big-money markets like the US and even Germany seems do to little in this regard.
Some tentative conclusions:
*Got always along well, just don’t be arrogant and now they are out-earning many Italians anyway….
- In short push down the barriers of entries for a large numbers of players by giving easier and cheaper access to the world of tennis.
- Don’t try to block private academies which cultivate talented players, try to find at least a decent working relationships.
- Help a good number of promising players not just a few ‘elite’ teenagers, which be very well trained early bloomers.
- Offer a lot of play on clay! Fighting spirit, shotmaking and footwork matter more in the long run than a good serve and big forehand by a big youngster.
- Never copy the Brits or the Americans if not having near absolute proof that they are doing something efficiently
- Study small countries with sustained success, like the Czech instead. Closer and cheaper and they often even speak German.*
Rovesciarete
Hall of Fame
Funny that according to this video Boris Becker was not deemed good enough to earn particular support from the German tennis federation - and a more precocious player is almost impossible to find
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
She dodged a bullet there.
