Why is Germany so bad at Tennis?
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BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Happened with the parents of Yao Minglol enforced breeding
Razer
G.O.A.T.
I didn't know that... interesting news
Becker and Graf were top male and female athletes in tennis at that time. so makes sense if this was china.
Indeedy71
New User
The thing people are missing in the Zverev conversation is that he grew up competing with and against his generation of Russian players as a result of his heritage. Tsitsipas too, though less so. The late 90s gen is very Russian-dominated for a reason - they all grew up together, competing against one another, with Soviet-era sports parents, irrespective of what country the ended up representing (including Kazakhstan). Similar reason Czech players over-index.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to consider Zverev an anomaly because of his parentage *and* his heritage, he’s a product of those two things as much as he is German.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to consider Zverev an anomaly because of his parentage *and* his heritage, he’s a product of those two things as much as he is German.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Your good right but I comment nevertheless when I have a different opinion.
Any arguments? Or especially any arguments against my arguments? At the very top, the tennis ladies still earn way more, and when we are talking popularity, the ratings for tennis are way higher. Only because some women in football (almost exclusively from the US) get good money by riding the coattails of the men doesn’t mean the sport itself is popular. If there wasn’t so much money in men’s football where the women could get their hands on by crying discrimination, their money would be far less.
As for the ratings: men will always watch more women’s tennis than football, so the only way, women’s football will surpass women’s tennis, is when women themselves start watching women’s football in large numbers. I don’t really see that happening tbh as I don’t know any woman who watches it. Even the women who are interested in football in general or even play it watch men’s football.
I am living in Germany which is under the top 3 in women’s football and here is hardly any women player who can even make a decent living out of it, let alone making millions.
As for basketball (which you dodged so far): where exactly are those women players making millions? Literally nobody cares about the WNBA. If it wasn’t subsidised by the NBA, it would have ceased to exist a long time ago. I don’t know how it is in other countries but in Germany women’s basketball is non-existent and I could not even name you one currently active female basketball player which is coming from a guy who is far above average interested in sports.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Not sure how much truth there is to that as I read it in a German magazine known for having agendas. However, according to it, Yao’s parents where chosen for their height and (relatively) prolific basketball careers and brought together by the sport committee who was also present at their wedding to spy. Yao’s mother never had a man before and was also not much interested in having kids. When Yao was born he was immediately trained by officials and his parents didn’t have much say in his education. When they found out his body was to weak for professional sports they gave him some steroids and all that stuff.
Again, that is only what I read in that article which could well to some extent be propaganda, but a little truth might be in there.
No because both are growing by leaps and bounds. Already 15 pro women soccer players earned over a million last year. And bigger contracts are being signed every year. It will easily pass the amount of ladies on tour earring that much. WNBA ratings have exploded this year with more people watching the finals than almost any WTA finals in the states. The growth of the league is happening fast. With many sellout crowds. Within 5 years there will be more lady millionaires in soccer than tennis. And in 10 years it won't even be close.
On the subject of Bettina Bunge who was mentioned earlier, I thought she was a lot of fun to watch. She had nice variety with her backhand, had fluid groundstrokes and looked very good at the net (and I remember hitting some lovely half volleys). She did like to party a lot, and realised that was hindering her career progression. Plus it seemed like she often struggled to deal with a lot of attention and spotlight.
Sylvia Hanika was also another interesting German female player from that period. There was a lot of controversy about her bouncing the ball a lot before serving at the time (and she received warnings for that), though since then numerous players have done that much more than her ! She typically hit with heavy topspin, but could mix in slices, volleyed well and had good athleticism.
Clearly her beating Navratilova the final of 1982 Avon Championships in Madison Square Gardens, from 1-6 0-2 down, was a very big deal. That was on the back of a tense SF against Turnbull. Her prize money for that title win was $100,000, for perspective nearly / roughly double what Navratilova earned (translating French Francs to USD at the time) after winning her first RG title a couple of months later.
Sylvia Hanika was also another interesting German female player from that period. There was a lot of controversy about her bouncing the ball a lot before serving at the time (and she received warnings for that), though since then numerous players have done that much more than her ! She typically hit with heavy topspin, but could mix in slices, volleyed well and had good athleticism.
Clearly her beating Navratilova the final of 1982 Avon Championships in Madison Square Gardens, from 1-6 0-2 down, was a very big deal. That was on the back of a tense SF against Turnbull. Her prize money for that title win was $100,000, for perspective nearly / roughly double what Navratilova earned (translating French Francs to USD at the time) after winning her first RG title a couple of months later.
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Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Razer
G.O.A.T.
it is mentioned on the internet, yes I too read about it. MIght even be true, the govt must have incentivized the 2 athletes for this and had an arrangement... it is not as forced as we think... must be by their own volition
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Soccer as such has a different paying structure than tennis, in the sense that it is not so centered to the top players. So when we are simply talking the pure number of millionaires then you might be right. However, the absolute top will be better at tennis. I doubt we will soon see any female soccer player who earns the same as Serena. Also, as I mentioned, the reason here is mainly because they are freeloading from the men’s side. We need to look purely on the money they generate aka the TV ratings. Female tennis still generates more viewership.
As for WNBA: too lazy to check it but you are the first who ever told me ratings exploded. My last knowledge was that they NEVER had any year where they didn’t make a loss. If it exploded that year good for them, would be eager to know though why out of a sudden when for years nobody cared about it?
Edit:damn just realised I started to call football “soccer”. Shame on me, the bad habit rubbed off.
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Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Stan isn’t German speaking.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
No, you actually couldn’t argue that.Thiem and Sinner are more German than Zverev and KerberOne could actually argue that Austria and Bavaria are real Germany while the north is actually Prussia. Anyhow, apart from Spain that produced Nadal and Alcaraz, whatever was said about German tennis applies to every other country.
From Wikipedia:
Wawrinka was born in Switzerland to a German father and Swiss mother.[8] He holds dual Swiss–German citizenship.[9][10] His father Wolfram Wawrinka, a farmer and social worker, is German of Czech ancestry. Wawrinka's paternal great-grandfather originated from Silesia — the border region between Poland and the former Czechoslovakia — and the surname originates with the Polish language.[11] It is related to Wawrzyniec, the Polish version of Laurence, or Laurentius. Wawrinka's mother, Isabelle, an educator, is Swiss.
I’m surprised to learn he is actually German!
That was tongue in cheek. No sense of humour much?
Oops, from your name I guess you’re from Finland. Ok, no worries lol
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Pure Andrew Tate stuff here.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
I’m Danish, but born in Finland. I was just stating that you were wrong.That was tongue in cheek. No sense of humour much?
Oops, from your name I guess you’re from Finland. Ok, no worries lol
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
He’s still French speaking. That was my point.
He certainly is French speaking. He could probably speak German too like all Swiss but I have no idea. Wikipedia information is new to me. I thought his father was from Poland.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
Yeah sure a rich beautiful woman marrying a regular dude with Lil money is so common,no?
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Only people who don’t know anything about football would argue that women players will earn more than tennis players. To understand football, you need to understand club football and not just watch highlights from the Olympics with national teams.
Ok, I actually like Finnish dry sense of humour. My favourite comedian is Ismo and I also found Kimi Raikonnen hilarious. Just to put your mind at ease, I don’t actually believe what I wrote is true. It’s actually a common joke in the south as I heard it very often from Austrian and Bavarian friends.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
He did learn German in School, but I never heard him speak it.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Never heard it from Austrians, I must say. Finnish humour IS very dry, whereas Danish humour is extremely ironic. Love both.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Voic
Voice of reason at last.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
A lot of Germany experts in this thread.
I‘m not so sure about that theory of the „athletic leftovers“.
In the US for example people often use that theory of the „athletic leftovers“ as an excuse as to why the US sucks at sports like Tennis and Soccer. They say: „well, our best athletes go to the NBA and NFL, so there are no good athletes left for sports like Soccer and Tennis.“
This is kind of a ridiculous take, because there is not much overlap in terms of what athletic abilities and skills are needed for those sports. For example, Lionel Messi is the best football/soccer player ever, but Messi wouldn’t stand a chance in the NBA or NFL, it would be absurd to see a guy like Messi in Basketball or American Football. Does that mean that Messi is a worse athlete than LeBron James, Shaquille O Neal or some wide receiver or some 110kg guy in the NFL who crushes into other people for a living? No, it’s just other skills that are needed for those sports.
Taylor Fritz, Sinner, Alcaraz or Zverev wouldn’t make it into the NFL, and a guy like LeBron James or Shaquille O Neal, as good of Basketball players they are, wouldn’t make it big in Tennis (even if they trained Tennis their whole life).
In France, I read people saying things like „our best athletes go to football/soccer, so that’s why we don’t win Grand Slams in Tennis or the Tour de France!“
But they forget there’s very few overlap, in football all the french players are black to begin with (because in football you benefit from being a very fast runner), while in sports like Tennis or Cycling, the overwhelming majority is white, because these sports are less dependent on being a quick runner, it’s more about skill (which is also why it’s not that unusual that we see 18 years old and 37 years old win big in Tennis, when they aren’t in their physical primes - because the skill is more important). So all the white french athletes could still make it big in Tennis or Cycling, it’s not like football/soccer is stopping them from that.
P.S.: by the way, Dirk Nowitzki is an example that there is not that much overlap. In his childhood and early teen years, Nowitzki and his family wanted him to become a Tennis player, they invested a lot of money in his Tennis career, he was also trained in the Bavarian Tennis program for the talented youth players. Nowitzki actually played against Tommy Haas in his youth career. But at around age 14-15, he fell out of the Bavarian System, because they told Nowitzki he isn’t good enough and hasn’t enough potential in Tennis. He then focused on his Basketball career and became one of the best Basketball players ever.
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Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
It's not about race, it's about culture and social circumstances. And football requires a lot of skill too. I guess you're American, since you don't really inderstand the concept of professional football.
you are right about women’s basketball being very niche in Germany, but me as a Basketball fan let me tell you this: Leonie Fiebich and Satou Sabally are two german basketball players, and they will play the title-deciding Game 5 in the WNBA Finals tomorrow!
There have been overlaps in the past.
For example Stich and Nadal both enjoyed playing football as kids (in fact for the vast majority of his childhood Stich prioritised football over tennis), before ultimately choosing tennis. Andy Murray was offered a trial at Rangers.
When Stich chose tennis, there weren't really serious big bucks in football and European football yet (that really started from the 90s). When Nadal chose tennis over football in 1998, football had become more lucrative and glamorous but things ramped up to an entirely different level in the 21st century. If the likes of Nadal and Murray were born 10 years later, football would have surely have been far more tempting choice, with the top European clubs all having become huge global brands (including Celtic and Rangers with large fanbases worldwide), the money continuing to pour into the sport including at lower levels etc.
There's no guarantee that any of those players could have gone to enjoy a successful football career or anything, but the point is that in later eras it would have been more difficult for all of them to choose tennis over football in the first place.
When the 80s born players were kids, the financial gulf between the top team sports like football and tennis was nowhere near as wide as it has become. In the past the likes of Borg and McEnroe both earned more prize money in particular seasons (not even including endorsements) than any athlete in any team sport including football. From the 90s I'd say that there was a huge power shift away from individual sports like tennis towards football and other team sports, which was only accelerated more and more since then.
Mike Agassi said he'd be more likely to push Andre towards baseball or golf instead of tennis if he could have done things all over again - Andre grew up when there was a big US and global tennis boom. McEnroe played a lot of different sports when he was younger, including various team sports - it was notable how he played tennis way less often than other juniors but was still more talented than all of them. But again when he was a kid those team sports were nowhere near as big, glamorous or lucrative, so it was a way less difficult choice to go tor tennis. And I doubt in more modern eras tennis would be as tempting a choice for a blue collar boy from a place like Belleville, as it was for Connors when he grew up in the 50s and 60s.
Are black athletes dominating in 100m sprint because of the culture?
Everyone who denies that being fast is a big advantage in football doesn’t have a clue about football.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
I never said anything about not being fast in football, but you know, they also kick a ball around and stuff. There are some differences in physiology in terms of race (sprint vs swimming), yes. It's a somewhat disputed scientific topic, though. But if you look at the best football players in the world, you can see that they come in all colours and sizes. You should look at cultural and social structures in sports and try to educate yourself. Are white people better at hitting a small ball into a hole with a stick or could there maybe be some kind of other explanation?
And just to be clear, I've played football, I've followed it intensely since I was a kid, and I regularly go to matches (I'm going to a game tomorrow, actually).
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Well, in Europe, 99% of the people are white, so it’s not surprising that 99% of Golfers, Cyclist etc (sports where you don’t need physical advantages like being a fast runner) are also white. It represents the population. Sports like Soccer don’t represent the population, in Western Europe, significant parts of the Soccer players are black, even though they make a very small size of the population.
You say „Soccer players come in all colours“, but blacks are way overrepresented. They make a very small size of the european population, but a significant percentage of the european soccer players. Because they have the physical advantages.
In European Tennis, the percentage of black athletes is closer to their population percentage, because Tennis is more about the skill, and the skill is colourblind - so if 98% of the population is white, Tennis players will overwhelmingly be white as well. It’s logical.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Yea sorry am clueless here but thought more about league here. I don’t even know whether there is a women’s basketball league in Germany, at the very least it doesn’t pay.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Once again, you completely fail to understand social structures and culture. And 99% of the population in Europe is NOT white. Have you ever been here? For example in a country like Sweden (which by people who haven't got a clue about Europe is conciodered the whitest of whites countries), more than 10% of the population are non-European. Like in the US some sports have many non-white athletes because of social and cultural structures. In a sport like football, especially in the UK and France, there are many from from economically lower classe that see their future in professional sports, whereas a lot og middle class (white) have the socioeconomic means to pursue other careers. It's a pretty well established fact. You sholdn't rely on old fashioned racial clichées when dealing with more complex issues that require actual knowledge about society.
In Germany, Football isn’t a lower class sport (it’s extremely popular in every socioeconomic class in Germany) and all kids dream of becoming a football pro (not just the black ones).
In Germany we have a bit less than 1 million black people, which is about 1% of the population, but we still got much higher percentage of black/mixed football players. Gnabry, Sane, Musiala, Rüdiger, Tah, Hendrichs, Adeyemi etc are all part of the core of around 30 players in the german national team. They make about 20-25% of the german national team, but just 1% of the german population.
That’s a massive overrepresentation. 20x more than the population size, even though football is equally popular in every social and ethnical group in Germany.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Yes, Tate, the sex trafficking cretin who spews the most unsubstantiated crap imaginable. Thankfully, that cave creature will soon be in prison where his "cellies" will exercise the same treatment he dished out to women.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
How popular is (male) basketball in Germany?
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BorgTheGOAT
Legend
In Germany there is football and the rest. Which one is second most popular depends completely on the success we have at the respective time. During Becker’s time it was tennis, during Nowitzki’s it was basketball. Now it is NFL actually (more like watching it for the ‘event’). Basketball could get another boom because of our WC title, but you will never get rich here by playing basketball, at best you can make a decent living while being active.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Same thing here in Denmark, football is extremely popular and transcends almost all divides. But still, you have to take into account that a lot of kids with middle class backgrounds have a lot more going for them in terms of possibilities beyond sports, which is one of the main reasons that many don't pursue athletic careers. Why there are so few elite players in Germany and Denmark with middle eastern background is probably another cultural issue (it totally is). But it's probably not genetic. Just think about how "white" the sport of handball is, that's totally a cultural thing.
Genetics can be a factor in sports, but you also have to take into account what the racial (plus race and age groups) representations are in different areas. Some cities with very good clubs/academies may have a large black population which may be a reason for a large representation of black players – which again has an influence an the national team (pretty rudimentary described, but you get the picture). And yes, I know that there is a large non-germanic middle class in Germany. Just so you know, that I don't automatically classify black=poor.
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There are going to be more women making big money in soccer than in tennis. Thats just going to be a fact. You obviously haven't paid attention to the growth or the contracts that have been signed over the last year.
The record for the highest-paying cumulative contract in NWSL history was set on multiple occasions this past offseason.
Chicago Red Stars forward Mallory Swanson, Bay FC forward Racheal Kundananji, and Orlando Pride forward Barbra Banda all signed multiyear deals worth between $2 million and $2.5 million in total. Smith signed a shorter-term deal but will be paid higher annually, the Thorns said, although general manager Karina LeBlanc declined to share specific numbers.
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Look. If your saying oh well the absolute top won't make money like Serena thats like saying the absolute top boxer makes more than most of baseball. That doesn't make boxing the mort lucrative sport overall for men. Soccer/football will provide more financial incentive to women over tennis overall. And its not going too be close. Literally record contracts are being signed monthly.
Raiden
Hall of Fame
Lottery money heavily directed towards select "medal rich" sports, not any sport.
The overarching goal is to hike up Britain's medal count at events such as the olympics. So the invesgtment is deliberately directed towards maximizing that goal. That's why for exmaple part of the money is even spent on "poaching" foreign athletes and making them British. For example Caribbean islanders are good in track and field (and also cricket but the money goes to the track and field guys) who in exchange for accepting British citizenship are given funding and covering of all their expenses.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Breaking records is easy when you start from literally zero. You think that increase will remain linear? The link you posted says that the best paid women in the world, US players get salaries from their clubs of less than 800,000. This is still not very much, so I wonder where all these million-contracts are. In Germany, which is one of the strongest nations in female football, most cannot even make a living from it. Also, your initial statement was that football will surpass tennis as the most popular female sport which is more linked to how much money the sports generate not how much the players are paid. As I said, much of the money women football players earn comes from the men’s side. US is not the world, globally, women tennis is much more popular than women’s football and it is not close at all.
Raiden
Hall of Fame
You don't understand what the poster said.
If soccer/football is popular in every class then it's a lower class sport (de facto) — because the only thing relevant here is the nature of this sport in comparison with other sports that are distinctly more "middle class" or even upper class by reputation. Because it means those other sports are much more likey to be practiced at the highest level by a more limited number of people than a lower class sport/sport that is popular in every class
There are different parameters to define how popular a sport is. These are some of the parameters:
- how popular is it as an activity, so how many people are actively doing the sport themselves
- how are the attendances for the sport
- how popular is the sport in TV and media (both league games and international competitions like World Cup)
If we put all these factors together, I would say these are the top five sports in Germany:
1) Football
2) Handball
3) Formula One
4) Tennis
5) Basketball or Ice Hockey
There are some special cases as well, like for example Cycling or some Winter Sports like Biathlon or Ski Jumping. Those sports are very popular in some specific times of the year (Winter sports mostly in December - February, and Cycling during Tour de France in the summer), but not all year around. Track and Field is popular at the Olympics or when there is a World Championship. Also, sports like Volleyball, Table Tennis or Gymnastics are very popular as an activity, but are almost completely absent as a TV sport and are not in the media.
Again we are talking past each other and this won't be resolved. The growth of women's soccer is on a very steep upward trend. And their contracts are only going to get larger. The pool of ladies tennis players who will be able to make huge money is far less than soccer. More and More ladies are getting bigger and bigger contracts.
You can see the growth here.
The Women’s World Cup prize pool totals $110 million this year, compared to $30 million the last time the women played a World Cup in 2019. The pay increase is largely due to the efforts of the U.S. Women’s team and their counterparts around the world to highlight the gender gap in the sport and to demand equal pay. Despite the considerable increase, the money allocated for the women’s teams lags far behind the $440 million prize awarded to the Men’s World Cup players last year. The total price money in 2019 was 30 million. In 2023 the Spanish women won the World Cup. That team alone got 10 million in prize money.
Thats an increase of almost 4 times the prize money in 4 years man. If you cant see the growth here I dont know what to tell you. The money for women's soccer is exploding. The US ladies got 300,000 each just for showing up at the last World Cup. But hey if you want to think tennis will remain the most lucrative sport for women you can think what you want. Thats fine. It's not going to be reality and it's worthless to talk about this anymore. Because you cant see the growth or just dismiss it as nothing. Im not gonna change your mind.
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Actually as far as watching on TV the NFL is the second most watched sport in Germany. Not to play but to watch. You can find a million articles online about it.
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