Why is Nadals game better on grass vs. US Open fast courts?

[Japanese Maple]

Curious on peoples feed back on why Nadal has more success on Wimbledon grass vs. mainly the fast courts of USOPEN and even at the Australian. I believe it has to do with his spin serve staying lower on grass and skidding vs. bouncing higher on hardcourts where players can get a good crack at the ball. Also, lets face it since Wimbledon went to all rye grass to slow the courts down and heavier, less compressed balls the grass courts play more like clay with lower bounces-perfect for giving Nadal time to set up his heavy spin fh. Case in point, when Wimbledon made the change to the courts because of ITF and TV pressure in 2001, we had Hewit and Nalbandia in the final . At the US Open , more players get rewarded with flatter grounstrokes vs. at Wimbledon and Nadal has less time to set up his heavy topspin groundies due to the extra speed and the fact that he plays too far behind the baseline. Also, big servers at the USOPEN can blast Nadal off the court due to speed vs. slower wimbledon grass courts.

 

[Cenc]

grass is slower than hard now
balls bounce nearly like they do on clay
it all goes in his favour

 

[Nadal_Freak]

The courts at Wimbledon are slippery, soft, and exaggerate spin due to unpredictable bounces. Clay has the same characteristics. Hardcourts have more traction, hard, and don't exaggerate spin due to predictable bounces. Most people grew up on hardcourts so it is their homecourt advantage when they play Rafa. Nadal struggles on slow hardcourts almost as much as fast hardcourts so the speed isn't the issue with Nadal on hardcourts.

 

[Aabye]

More hardcourt players, mean more people who feel they have a chance against him. Also grass is much more forgiving a surface than hardcourt, and with a game built around running even Nadal's body has a hard time handling the pounding.

 

[eric draven]

grass is slower than hard now
balls bounce nearly like they do on clay
it all goes in his favour

The grass isn't slower than hard courts and as for a grass court bounce versus a clay court bounce, the grass courts are still lower and have more of a tendency to skid. That being said it would stand to reason that those circumstances favor Federer.

It's not the court so much as it is Nadal learning to make adjustments to his game for faster surfaces. We haven't seen this version of Nadal play the hardcourt season. He's learned how to play different surfaces, he's confident & stronger (very scary reality). I'll be surprised if he doesn't do very well during the hard court season, assuming he stays healthy.

 

[mcenroefan]

For the primary reason that the US Open courts are faster meaning fewer miraculous retrievals for Nadal. Both Fed and Joker will get more balls by him on the Open courts.

Note though that we haven't yet seen the improved version of Nadal at the Open and he seems better at flattening out his shots this year so maybe he will have gained some offensive advantage to offset the defensive loss he feels at the Open.

 

[Turning Pro]

Actually it's slightly slower than the U.S open. The key factor is that he moves very well on grass now and the surface is easier on his knees than hard court and he sort of has issues with his knees possibly jamming/jarring on hard courts. Simple.

 

[Arafel]

The grass isn't slower than hard courts and as for a grass court bounce versus a clay court bounce, the grass courts are still lower and have more of a tendency to skid. That being said it would stand to reason that those circumstances favor Federer.

Actually, grass is definitely slower than the hard courts at the US Open now. Everybody has commented on it. Wimbledon doesn't officially admit it, but the effect of changing the grass was to slow it down dramatically.

Go watch a Connors-McEnroe or Becker-Edberg final, then re-watch yesterday's final, which was mostly baseline tennis, and then come back and try to say the grass hasn't slowed dramatically. There's no way players could win from the baseline on old Wimbledon grass. Borg, as much as he was a baseliner and clay court master, played serve-volley tennis on most points during his five-year reign as champion at Wimbledon. Would he have done that if he could have won from the baseline?

 

[Nadal_Freak]

It is harder to get a clean hit on grass. You don't see too many 100 mph forehands on grass. Less time to set up due to the unpredictable bounces. A better way to measure the speed of the court is how many free points you get on serve. Fed had 25 aces so I say it was playing fast. Not real fast but faster than people are making it out to be. Queen's was also fast but the same issue with not getting clean hits make it seem slower until you see how hard it is to break.

 

[Cenc]

The grass isn't slower than hard courts and as for a grass court bounce versus a clay court bounce, the grass courts are still lower and have more of a tendency to skid. That being said it would stand to reason that those circumstances favor Federer.

It's not the court so much as it is Nadal learning to make adjustments to his game for faster surfaces. We haven't seen this version of Nadal play the hardcourt season. He's learned how to play different surfaces, he's confident & stronger (very scary reality). I'll be surprised if he doesn't do very well during the hard court season, assuming he stays healthy.

depends which grass you mean:
grass in queens isnt slower and i am really surprised nadal won queens thats a proof of his mental toughness
grass in wimbledon is just faster than clay most pros said that (i remember ivanisevic and henman saying that wimbledon was green roland garros and also sampras said something like that)
in other words- grass at pre-wimby tournaments=nearly real grass from 90s
grass in wimby - shame

 

[!Tym]

Grass like all natural, imperfect surfaces cause unpredictable bounces. The problem with topspin on the grass of old was not so much that a great topspin wasn't difficult to handle but rather that it was difficult to get a great topspin shot off because the ball barely bounced at all. You saw several Nadal shots yesterday that hit a spot and skip off unpredictably, that effect certainly doesn't have a negative effect on Nadal's game. Fast hard courts give cleaner, more predictable bounces and are thus easier for other players to get their rhythm on. The reason Nadal and Federer (and Hewitt before them) both excel on the grass of these days is because they're two primo athletes who adjust better on the fly to the unpredictable nuances of shots rebounding off grass. In other words, they're able to make finer, last second adjustments on the fly better than the others. Being nimble is a huge part of success on grass, it's just that before the best on grass were both nimble and served huge and volleyed sharply. Now that balls actually bounce up AT ALL on grass, however, changes the dynamic and it's much more of an athletic baseliners rather than athletic serve and volleyers contest now, imo.

 

[PROTENNIS63]

It is harder to get a clean hit on grass. You don't see too many 100 mph forehands on grass. Less time to set up due to the unpredictable bounces. A better way to measure the speed of the court is how many free points you get on serve. Fed had 25 aces so I say it was playing fast. Not real fast but faster than people are making it out to be. Queen's was also fast but the same issue with not getting clean hits make it seem slower until you see how hard it is to break.

You just backed up the point that since it is hard for Fed to get the "perfect" ball, grass is not as good for Fed as it used to be.

 

[NamRanger]

It is harder to get a clean hit on grass. You don't see too many 100 mph forehands on grass. Less time to set up due to the unpredictable bounces. A better way to measure the speed of the court is how many free points you get on serve. Fed had 25 aces so I say it was playing fast. Not real fast but faster than people are making it out to be. Queen's was also fast but the same issue with not getting clean hits make it seem slower until you see how hard it is to break.

Federer and Roddick both had career high aces at the Australian Open, and that surface is slow beyond reasoning. Especially according to your break percentage theory.

 

[counter_puncher]

Because of the spin of his shots.

 

[fastdunn]

Grass and clay share following common characteristics (whether 90's fast or 21C slow)

1. Uncertain bounce
2. Uncertain footing


Players can take more chances against Nadal's spinny bounces and go for winners with more predictable bounce and secure footing on hard courts.

Another minor factor,

Nadal wants Wimbledon much more than US Open or Australian Open.

But as far as I know, even US Open courts are slower than 90's. Nadal has improved his serve and flat groundies. He has pretty good chance to win HC slams, IMHO.

 

[coloskier]

Grass like all natural, imperfect surfaces cause unpredictable bounces. The problem with topspin on the grass of old was not so much that a great topspin wasn't difficult to handle but rather that it was difficult to get a great topspin shot off because the ball barely bounced at all. You saw several Nadal shots yesterday that hit a spot and skip off unpredictably, that effect certainly doesn't have a negative effect on Nadal's game. Fast hard courts give cleaner, more predictable bounces and are thus easier for other players to get their rhythm on. The reason Nadal and Federer (and Hewitt before them) both excel on the grass of these days is because they're two primo athletes who adjust better on the fly to the unpredictable nuances of shots rebounding off grass. In other words, they're able to make finer, last second adjustments on the fly better than the others. Being nimble is a huge part of success on grass, it's just that before the best on grass were both nimble and served huge and volleyed sharply. Now that balls actually bounce up AT ALL on grass, however, changes the dynamic and it's much more of an athletic baseliners rather than athletic serve and volleyers contest now, imo.

One thing that was mentioned by Martina Navratilova during Wimbledon this year is that in the early 90's you better not let a lob bounce, because it wouldn't bounce above your shoulders. And when you bounced the ball for a warmup to serve, sometimes it wouldn't come back up to you unless you bounced really hard. I think that is the biggest difference now. Back in the 90's if you hit a slice approach it rarely bounced more than 6" high. Now it skids but still bounces 18" or more up. Much easier to hit a passing shot with a ball at your knees than it is with a ball at your ankles.

 

[Otherside]

the key factor is that guys like Berdych, Blake, Youzny can all be on fire and take out NAdal at he Open. The competition is so hard on those courts since all the players have so many hours on the surface. A player like Blake when on fire gets Nadals topspin balls in the striking zone and can pound winners. Much harder to take the ball on the rise at RG and Wimby.
NAdals knees are also a factor there

 

[grizzly4life]

Actually it's slightly slower than the U.S open. The key factor is that he moves very well on grass now and the surface is easier on his knees than hard court and he sort of has issues with his knees possibly jamming/jarring on hard courts. Simple.

i agree... i'm thinking nadal's style of play really beat the body down. whereas fed/joker are more quick matches. big serve helps on fast courts.

 

[grizzly4life]

i've played on grass a few times and i found the bounces were absolutely perfect............. a poorly maintained clay court is like a bad bounce every single shot.

 

[bluetrain4]

For the primary reason that the US Open courts are faster meaning fewer miraculous retrievals for Nadal. Both Fed and Joker will get more balls by him on the Open courts.

Note though that we haven't yet seen the improved version of Nadal at the Open and he seems better at flattening out his shots this year so maybe he will have gained some offensive advantage to offset the defensive loss he feels at the Open.

Very true. More players can hit through him more often. Rafa is still one of the best defensive players and no matter how fast the court, it will be harder to get balls by Rafa than any other player. But, being able to get even a few more balls by him changes the game drastically.

But, Rafa can play offensively as well, and I really think he needs to change his offense-defense ratio and he can do very well at the hardcourt Slams.

He's shown that he can move up and not stand so far back. He's shown that he can flatten out his shots and be the agressor.

 

[NikeWilson]

Rafa is actually getting better on hardcourts. he's just playing better in general. he did reach the semis at the AO, where he lost to an out-of-his-mind Tsonga. we'll see how Rafa does at the US Open this year. last year, his knees were still bothering him from the Wimby final carrying into the US Open. this year, he looks healthier.

 

[daddy]

Because grass suits him more ? Seriously there is a big difference between grass and blistering fast hard courts like USO so its not hard to be bothered by one / like another surface.

 

[alienhamster]

the key factor is that guys like Berdych, Blake, Youzny can all be on fire and take out NAdal at he Open. The competition is so hard on those courts since all the players have so many hours on the surface. A player like Blake when on fire gets Nadals topspin balls in the striking zone and can pound winners. Much harder to take the ball on the rise at RG and Wimby.
NAdals knees are also a factor there

To add to this:

More specifically, Nadal is more vulnerable to hard, flat bombs to his forehand side on fast hard courts. As other posters say here, he can't retrieve as easily. And even if he does get a shot on some of these balls, he tends to hit spinny and short into the court, which only results in an even easier put away shot for his foes.

I'm not totally convinced he's learned how to adjust to these types of players. He's certainly gotten better, though. Really, he just needs to learn how to keep his shots *deeper* when he's on the defense. The crazy topspin is an asset on every type of court, esp. when they're landing near the baseline.

 

[Nadal_Monfils]

To add to this:

More specifically, Nadal is more vulnerable to hard, flat bombs to his forehand side on fast hard courts. As other posters say here, he can't retrieve as easily. And even if he does get a shot on some of these balls, he tends to hit spinny and short into the court, which only results in an even easier put away shot for his foes.

I'm not totally convinced he's learned how to adjust to these types of players. He's certainly gotten better, though. Really, he just needs to learn how to keep his shots *deeper* when he's on the defense. The crazy topspin is an asset on every type of court, esp. when they're landing near the baseline.

I agree that depth is the key for him, as on hard courts the bounce is always perfect and very predictable so people can line up their shot and tee of on a sitting short ball. Yes, the grass at Wimbledon was slowed down but everyone needs to stop exaggerating so much and calling it clay, it is nowhere near the speed of clay, just a little bit slower than the old grass.

 

[150mph_]

.................. what the hell...

 

[mcenroefan]

The speed of the courts also means that points end more quickly thus making Nadal's pounding style less effective on his opponent.

On clay and even on grass to some degree, the longer points and heavy spin act almost like body blows on his opponents. I think many feel beaten after the first set b/c they realize the punishment they must suffer to even challenge Nadal. We saw it yesterday even with Federer....he looked gassed in the 5th set.

At the Open, more aces and quick points diminish this effect for Nadal.

 

[BERDI4]

The reason: his knees

I think the reason he can't play on hard courts is his knees suffer a lot. On grass you can skid and the surface is soft but on hard it's very tought for the knees.

 

[TheTruth]

The grass isn't slower than hard courts and as for a grass court bounce versus a clay court bounce, the grass courts are still lower and have more of a tendency to skid. That being said it would stand to reason that those circumstances favor Federer.

It's not the court so much as it is Nadal learning to make adjustments to his game for faster surfaces. We haven't seen this version of Nadal play the hardcourt season. He's learned how to play different surfaces, he's confident & stronger (very scary reality). I'll be surprised if he doesn't do very well during the hard court season, assuming he stays healthy.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. He's constantly making adjustments. It seems some people want to keep him in a box. But the Nadal of 2005, 2006, & 2007 barely resembles the 2008 version. Every grand slam he turns up with another new and improved tactic. With his penchant for learning, there's no limit to where he can go. I can't wait to see what he unveils at the USO!

 

[Japanese Maple]

I think the reason he can't play on hard courts is his knees suffer a lot. On grass you can skid and the surface is soft but on hard it's very tought for the knees.

Actually , grass courts can be actually hard on the knees-much like playing beach volley ball-your knee seeks a little bit each time you bend.

 

[Julieta]

It remains to be seen what Nadal will do during the hardcourt season.

I think Nadal did so well at Wimbledon because of his serve and his speed. I don't know what his serve stats were but it seemed like he made so many first serves and placed his serves perfectly. He was so hard to break that his opponents were under constant pressure on their service games. And he's just so fast. He also played up and back extremely well. All of this combined to put so much pressure on his opponents.

 

[Charlie_Boy]

Nadal's gradually getting better, on every surface.

As said previously, semis of the AO. For him to lose, Tsonga needed to play arguably the best tennis of the year of any player.

But Fed still felt the need to comment on Rafa's easy draw....just throwing that out there.

 

[fastdunn]

Because grass suits him more ? Seriously there is a big difference between grass and blistering fast hard courts like USO so its not hard to be bothered by one / like another surface.

I would not call US Open "blistering fast" court. US Open hard court surfaces also got significantly slower between 2001-2003 (exactly same time when grass court got slower and "harder"). All other hard court tournaments followed the suit.

Federer is an exceptional athelete. It seemed amazing when we see him winning grass courts and hard courts. But the fact is the hard court is much slower now just like the way grass court got slower.

If you can win on grass, you can win on slow hard court of US Open. It's got much slower than 90's.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

Nadal is more vulnurable when he's injured, simple as that.

Its the stress on his knees and body thats the problem with the hard courts, not the speed of the surface. Last year at the US Open Nadal played through a lot of pain and would not have played had it not been a major.

 

[fastdunn]

Of course, if you are injured, you can't win on anything. But note that he was injured in Wimbledon (and did not take care of it smartly...)

Nadal's problem on hard court:
1. serve return.
2. Due to more reliable bounce, his opponents gets more chance to be agressive.

Nadal has learned to rob his opponents chances to become agressive on hard court.

Nadal's serve return has improved also. (He improved only marginally against Federer's serves though).

 

[Nadal_Freak]

2. Due to more reliable bounce, his opponents gets more chance to be agressive.

That is the whole answer. Nadal can get rushed much easier on a surface with predictable bounces. Hardcourts are the only surface that give opponents a reliable bounce from where they can attack without worrying about bad bounces.

 

[Andyk028]

It's pretty obvious the grass is easier on his knees..isnt it?

 

[The balls in your court.]

Same reason why Borg had the exact same problem....they both hit with too much topspin for hardcourts.

 

[Mick]

on the telecast week, drydale and cahill said it was the ball, not the surface that caused problem for nadal at the us open. they said french open and wimbledon use heavy balls and us open uses lighter balls, and lighter balls sometimes would fly short when nadal hits those excessive top spins.

 

[127mph]

i would say that because the grass season is so short, and its right after the clay season in which he always plays well and never looses, he comes into the grass season playing well.

 

[downthewall]

listen to these bozos acting like they've played on all surfaces... i bet 99% of the people here that makes comments on surfaces just re-iterate from commentators.

 

[Nadal_Freak]

listen to these bozos acting like they've played on all surfaces... i bet 99% of the people here that makes comments on surfaces just re-iterate from commentators.

Yep. No one should ever try to analyze tennis. Everything just happens without reasons. Btw, a lot of commentators were once professional tennis players so they do know what they're talking. Some are extremely biased though. Cough Gimelstobb Cough

 

[travlerajm]

Nadal will do fine this year. Since he doesn't have a huge weapon, the true bounce of hard courts combined with Nadal's relatively defensive style gives players a chance to dictate play. It takes an outstanding performance to beat him, but that's exactly what players did to him the past 3 hardcourt slams. Ferrer played at an amazing level last year to take out Nadal, then laid an egg against Djokovic the net round. And at the Australian this year, Tsonga treed against Nadal, then returned to his usual level against Djokovic. Youzhny executed perfectly in attacking Nadal's forehand at every opportunity, but was no match for Roddick's serve the next round. Lucky for Nadal, there are only a few players in the field who are capable of raising their game high enough to beat him. I don't expect Nadal to lose in the US Open this year unless he meets Federer in the final. If Nadal meets Djokovic, I expect Nadal to own him, because I believe Djokovic is still not fit enough to beat Nadal 3 out of 5.

 

[Hot Sauce]

Three words: Bounce.

 

[The balls in your court.]

Three words: Bounce.

Bounce is only one word.

Here are three words:

1. Topspin
2. Flat ball winners
3. Skidding

Simply put Nadal hits with too much topspin on a hardcourt. The ball bounces very high on his opponents side giving them the chance to hit a flat ball winner.


Nadal is able to chase down the flat ball on clay but not on a hard court because of the skidding and quicker speed of a hard court. Basically Nadal can ge to the flat balls on clay but nit on the quicker skidding hard courts

On grass although the ball skids similar to a hardcourt, BUT it does not bounce very high on his opponents side at all. Nadals opponents are basically unable to hit the flat ball winner on grass against Nadal because his balls do not bounce as high as they do on a hard court.

Borg had the same exact issues as Nadal and never could win the USO.

 

[ksbh]

Bjorn won the FO 6 times. You must have meant the U.S Open.

Bounce is only one word.

Here are three words:

1. Topspin
2. Flat ball winners
3. Skidding

Simply put Nadal hits with too much topspin on a hardcourt. The ball bounces very high on his opponents side giving them the chance to hit a flat ball winner.


Nadal is able to chase down the flat ball on clay but not on a hard court because of the skidding and quicker speed of a hard court. Basically Nadal can ge to the flat balls on clay but nit on the quicker skidding hard courts

On grass although the ball skids similar to a hardcourt, BUT it does not bounce very high on his opponents side at all. Nadals opponents are basically unable to hit the flat ball winner on grass against Nadal because his balls do not bounce as high as they do on a hard court.

Borg had the same exact issues as Nadal and never could win the FO.

 

[Arafel]

Bjorn won the FO 6 times. You must have meant the U.S Open.

\

Yeah, except Borg had chances to win the US Open on grass and then three times on clay and couldn't do it. There was something more going on than just the hard court.

Borg's best chance to take the US Open was 76, when he made the final and lost to Connors on clay in 4 sets. Borg had 3 set points in the third set tiebreak. If he wins one of those and goes up 2 sets to 1, he probably wins. He had a good chance in 77 too, but retired against Stockton in the fourth round. If he didn't get hurt, I think he would have crushed Vilas in the semis and then probably beaten Connors in the final.

Borg's other best chance was the 80 US Open, but it used to play so fast that the court really favored McEnroe, who won in a close 5 set match.

 

[The balls in your court.]

Bjorn won the FO 6 times. You must have meant the U.S Open.

yes thanks.

fixing it asap.

 

[The balls in your court.]

\

Yeah, except Borg had chances to win the US Open on grass and then three times on clay and couldn't do it. There was something more going on than just the hard court.

Borg's best chance to take the US Open was 76, when he made the final and lost to Connors on clay in 4 sets. Borg had 3 set points in the third set tiebreak. If he wins one of those and goes up 2 sets to 1, he probably wins. He had a good chance in 77 too, but retired against Stockton in the fourth round. If he didn't get hurt, I think he would have crushed Vilas in the semis and then probably beaten Connors in the final.

Borg's other best chance was the 80 US Open, but it used to play so fast that the court really favored McEnroe, who won in a close 5 set match.

Both Borg and Nadal are very similar and they both have similar problems: The USO

(by the way Borg lost the USO on hartru....not red clay.....big difference).

 

[Nadal_Freak]

Bounce is only one word.

Here are three words:

1. Topspin
2. Flat ball winners
3. Skidding

Simply put Nadal hits with too much topspin on a hardcourt. The ball bounces very high on his opponents side giving them the chance to hit a flat ball winner.


Nadal is able to chase down the flat ball on clay but not on a hard court because of the skidding and quicker speed of a hard court. Basically Nadal can ge to the flat balls on clay but nit on the quicker skidding hard courts

On grass although the ball skids similar to a hardcourt, BUT it does not bounce very high on his opponents side at all. Nadals opponents are basically unable to hit the flat ball winner on grass against Nadal because his balls do not bounce as high as they do on a hard court.

Borg had the same exact issues as Nadal and never could win the USO.

I disagree with the Nadal doesn't want the ball to be high on the opponents. He does want it to be high but his balls don't get high enough on hard courts and it is easier hitting a winner on a hard court than on any other surfaces due to the traction and predictable bounces. It is not easy scrambling on a hardcourt though and that is what Nadal gets caught up on every time he plays there along with not liking the lighter balls at the Open.

 

[Nadal_Freak]

It's even worse indoors as players don't have to worry about wind as well and can just rip winners at will.