Why is no Nadal fan ready to accept that even without injury Rafael would have had an extremely difficult match with Wawrinka?

[ForehandCross]

And might as well lose?

Wawrinka defeated Djokovic. Fought past Berdych. And blew Rafael off the court in the first.

And any real Rafael fan who watched that first set, will attest to the fact that he didn't play completely hampered.

And Rafael served at 72% with enough pace and his defence wasn't hampered.
I am not saying he definitely wins or loses, but my point is why it is such an absolute given that Nadal was always going to win that final?

Wawrinka was playing great tennis.


If Verdasco and Berdych can push two better versions Nadal's on the surface ,why can't Wawarinka?

And as for the single BH issue, it really wasn't an issue against Nadal in the first set and nothing post 2013 to suggest that off clay it has been an problem off clay.

Match starts with 35 minutes in. First set ends at 1hrs 14 minutes in.

I will concede defeat if anyone finds me 5 points from the set that has Rafael looking completely hampered.

 

[Yugram]

Maybe because the fact that apart from 3 matches, in 1 of which Nadal could barely play, and the other 2 coming from Nadal’s career lowest point, Wawrinka hasn’t even taken a set off him? Not even once in 13 years.

 

[ForehandCross]

Maybe because the fact that apart from 3 matches, in 1 of which Nadal could barely play, Wawrinka hasn’t even taken a set off him? Not even once in 13 years.

How about Wawrinka's record against Federer, Djokovic ? They were as abysmal as Stan's against Rafa. Difference is both Djokerer met Stan quite a lot in slams against Wawrinka in 2013-17 and Wawrinka had almost even h2h with Djokovic and stretched Federer a lot.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Injured when he loses, no?

 

[Yugram]

How about Wawrinka's record against Federer, Djokovic ? They were as abysmal as Stan's against Rafa. Difference is both Djokerer met Stan quite a lot in slams against Wawrinka in 2013-17 and Wawrinka had almost even h2h with Djokovic and stretched Federer a lot.

2013 and 2017 RG are a perfect explanation of how their Slam matches would look like when both are at their best.

 

[Hitman]

Their last match even though Nadal won in straights, was 7-6, 7-6. So it was clear that Wawrinka was getting closer, and that was against 2013 healthy Nadal. And Wawrinka was playing a lot better at AO 2014, so IMO even against a healthy Nadal, it would have been difficult for Rafa.

 

[ForehandCross]

Match starts with 35 minutes in. First set ends at 1hrs 14 minutes in.

I will concede defeat if anyone finds me 5 points from the set that has Rafael looking completely hampered.

 

[ForehandCross]

2013 and 2017 RG are a perfect explanation of how their Slam matches would look like when both are at their best.

That's clay. That's two of Rafael's best years. That's after a 5hr match against Gasquet and Murray.

 

[StrongRule]

Wawrinka played on the same level in their matches in Shanghai and WTF 2013 and Nadal ended up winning both in straights. Very close sets, but still Nadal won. Had Nadal played on the same level in AO 2014 final then I believe there would be a few close sets again, but Nadal would have definitely won.

Injured or not, Nadal played a terrible match. People who say he was good in the first set are crazy. The game where he got broken was very bad, a few terrible decisions in one game. Then we have the last game of the set where he had a triple break point and failed to return THREE SECOND SERVES IN A ROW. This is completely inexcusable for any professional player, leave alone the world number 1.

 

[MeatTornado]

2013 and 2017 RG are a perfect explanation of how their Slam matches would look like when both are at their best.

lol, I'm picking Rafa to win all day every day at RG even against Peak Stanimal, still in straight sets most likely. But please do not pretend like 2013 & 2017 RG was any indication of what Stan would play like at his best at all the slams.

 

[Sabrina]

Wawrinka played on the same level in their matches in Shanghai and WTF 2013 and Nadal ended up winning both in straights. Very close sets, but still Nadal won. Had Nadal played on the same level in AO 2014 final then I believe there would be a few close sets again, but Nadal would have definitely won.

Injured or not, Nadal played a terrible match. People who say he was good in the first set are crazy. The game where he got broken was abysmal, a few terrible decisions in one game. Then we have the last game of the set where he had a triple break point and failed to return THREE SECOND SERVES IN A ROW. This is completely inexcusable for any professional player, leave alone the world number 1.

I don't actually know but for some reasons Nadal looked extremely nervous during that match. That match was the glimpse of mentally unstable Nadal, which still happens till now.

 

[StrongRule]

Their last match even though Nadal won in straights, was 7-6, 7-6. So it was clear that Wawrinka was getting closer, and that was against 2013 healthy Nadal. And Wawrinka was playing a lot better at AO 2014, so IMO even against a healthy Nadal, it would have been difficult for Rafa.

I don't see how Wawrinka in AO 2014 played better than in the first set of their Shanghai 2013 match. The difference is that in Shanghai Nadal played well himself, so Wawrinka failed to break him. Nadal won that set 12-10 in a tiebreak.

 

[Atennisone]

And might as well lose?

Wawrinka defeated Djokovic. Fought past Berdych. And blew Rafael off the court in the first.

And any real Rafael fan who watched that first set, will attest to the fact that he didn't play completely hampered.

And Rafael served at 72% with enough pace and his defence wasn't hampered.
I am not saying he definitely wins or loses, but my point is why it is such an absolute given that Nadal was always going to win that final?

Wawrinka was playing great tennis.


If Verdasco and Berdych can push two better versions Nadal's on the surface ,why can't Wawarinka?

And as for the single BH issue, it really wasn't an issue against Nadal in the first set and nothing post 2013 to suggest that off clay it has been an problem off clay.

Ah you should you know that Wawrinka is a worse matchup for Djokovic than for Federer & Nadal.

 

[Hitman]

I don't actually know but for some reasons Nadal looked extremely nervous during that match. That match was the glimpse of mentally unstable Nadal, which still happens till now.

Welcome to post prime Nadal. And that match that started it all.

 

[Hitman]

I don't see how Wawrinka in AO 2014 played better than in the first set of their Shanghai 2013 match. The difference is that in Shanghai Nadal played well himself, so Wawrinka failed to break him. Nadal won that set 12-10 in a tiebreak.

I am happy to disagree with you on that, I personally think Wawrinka played better at AO 2014. Though keep in mind, I am NOT saying Wawrinka would have won, I simply don't agree with those that think Nadal would have walked all over him. That wasn't going to be a straightforward match.

 

[StrongRule]

lol, I'm picking Rafa to win all day every day at RG even against Peak Stanimal, still in straight sets most likely. But please do not pretend like 2013 & 2017 RG was any indication of what Stan would play like at his best at all the slams.

Wawrinka tried hard in RG 2017 final, there were long rallies, but Nadal just wasn't missing anything starting from the middle of the first set. Not sure what Wawrinka could theoretically do that day.

 

[Hitman]

lol, I'm picking Rafa to win all day every day at RG even against Peak Stanimal, still in straight sets most likely. But please do not pretend like 2013 & 2017 RG was any indication of what Stan would play like at his best at all the slams.

Stan played epic five set matches, before each match against Nadal at RG 2013 and 2017 - Still would have lost, but IMO he would have put in a better accounting of himself.

 

[StrongRule]

I don't actually know but for some reasons Nadal looked extremely nervous during that match. That match was the glimpse of mentally unstable Nadal, which still happens till now.

IMO the worst loss any of the big 3 ever had. Nothing else is even comparable. When looking at Nadal's career there are two parts of it: before this match and after. This is just not the same player.

 

[Sabrina]

IMO the worst loss any of the big 3 ever had. Nothing else is even comparable. When looking at Nadal's career there are two parts of it: before this match and after. This is just not the same player.

I agree.

Nadal's performance dropped like a stone after this match. Lost before SF of IW for the first time since 2006 or something, looked completely hopeless against Djokovic at Miami. He even lost more than twice in the clay season for the first time since 2005 (could have amassed 2 more losses if some luck hadn't been on his side). Even though he managed to win 6 more GS after that but I don't think he is the same player (notably the mental strength).

 

[ForehandCross]

I like how injuries always matter when it's Rafael.

Wawrinka's entire season and career was destroyed after the Murray SF in RG. And he has himself said that it was the match that hurt him.

But yes since the final was against Nadal he must have been fit as a rabbit to take the beating.

 

[StrongRule]

I like how injuries always matter when it's Rafael.

Wawrinka's entire season and career was destroyed after the Murray SF in RG. And he has himself said that it was the match that hurt him.

But yes since the final was against Nadal he must have been fit as a rabbit to take the beating.

I didn't see any specific health problems Wawrinka had in RG 2017 final. There is nothing he could do against that Nadal.

 

[clayqueen]

How about Wawrinka's record against Federer, Djokovic ? They were as abysmal as Stan's against Rafa. Difference is both Djokerer met Stan quite a lot in slams against Wawrinka in 2013-17 and Wawrinka had almost even h2h with Djokovic and stretched Federer a lot.

So what?

 

[ForehandCross]

I didn't see any specific health problems Wawrinka had in RG 2017 final. There is nothing he could do against that Nadal.

Of course he could not. That's top 5 of Rafael's performance. No one stood a chance.

I was just pointing out that giving that giving that match as example ,when Wawrinka had been clearly injured is wrong.

 

[Hitman]

I didn't see any specific health problems Wawrinka had in RG 2017 final. There is nothing he could do against that Nadal.

He wasn't 100% that is for sure, he would have still lost in straights more than likely, but his semi with Murray is often talked about being the match that ended it for both of them. This is the same guy who had to take time off for surgery straight after W 2017 for his knee, an issue he said he was carrying for most of that season. So, while you may not have seen specific health problems...the fact he confirmed that semi damaged him and that he actually had surgery post Wimbledon shows he wasn't 100%

This though wouldn't change the result of the match, but Wawrinka would have put a better accounting of himself.

 

[clayqueen]

I like how injuries always matter when it's Rafael.

Wawrinka's entire season and career was destroyed after the Murray SF in RG. And he has himself said that it was the match that hurt him.

But yes since the final was against Nadal he must have been fit as a rabbit to take the beating.

Rafa got injured in the warm-up even before the match started. It it hadn't been a final Rafa would have given Stan a WO; Rafa played because he didn't want to disappoint the crowd who had paid for tickets to be there.

 

[ForehandCross]

He wasn't 100% that is for sure, he would have still lost in straights more than likely, but his semi with Murray is often talked about being the match that ended it for both of them. This is the same guy who had to take time off for surgery straight after W 2017 for his knee, an issue he said he was carrying for most of that season. So, while you may not have seen specific health problems...the fact he confirmed that semi damaged him and that he actually had surgery post Wimbledon shows he wasn't 100%

This though wouldn't change the result of the match, but Wawrinka would have put a better accounting of himself.

Exactly that's what I am trying to say.

 

[ForehandCross]

Rafa got injured in the warm-up even before the match started. It it hadn't been a final Rafa would have given Stan a WO; Rafa played because he didn't want to disappoint the crowd who had paid for tickets to be there.

You believe it because Rafael said it. You people are life long Nadal fans. Show me 5 points in the entire first set where he looks injured as in not chasing the balls, serving lower, hampered movement e.t.c and consider me convinced.

 

[Hitman]

I agree.

Nadal's performance dropped like a stone after this match. Lost before SF of IW for the first time since 2006 or something, looked completely hopeless against Djokovic at Miami. He even lost more than twice in the clay season for the first time since 2005 (could have amassed 2 more losses if some luck hadn't been on his side). Even though he managed to win 6 more GS after that but I don't think he is the same player (notably the mental strength).

IMO

Beyond AO 2010 = Post prime Federer
Beyond AO 2014 = Post prime Nadal
Beyond RG 2016 = Post prime Djokovic

 

[Nostradamus]

And might as well lose?

Wawrinka defeated Djokovic. Fought past Berdych. And blew Rafael off the court in the first.

And any real Rafael fan who watched that first set, will attest to the fact that he didn't play completely hampered.

And Rafael served at 72% with enough pace and his defence wasn't hampered.
I am not saying he definitely wins or loses, but my point is why it is such an absolute given that Nadal was always going to win that final?

Wawrinka was playing great tennis.


If Verdasco and Berdych can push two better versions Nadal's on the surface ,why can't Wawarinka?

And as for the single BH issue, it really wasn't an issue against Nadal in the first set and nothing post 2013 to suggest that off clay it has been an problem off clay.

Match starts with 35 minutes in. First set ends at 1hrs 14 minutes in.

I will concede defeat if anyone finds me 5 points from the set that has Rafael looking completely hampered.

stan backhand can't handle rafa forehand. so not a good matchup

 

[NoleFam]

Wawrinka was hitting the ball with a level of ferocity that it was going to be very tough for Nadal that day, no doubt, because Nadal's weight of shot was not doing enough damage to hurt him and he was just crushing winners at will. Probably the only time I saw Wawrinka hit the ball like that again that year was that WTF match against Federer, except he served quite poorly in that WTF match but he still had multiple match points which shows how well he played because Federer didn't play badly. Wawrinka was crushing the ball in that match and kept Federer pushed back on his heels.

 

[StrongRule]

IMO

Beyond AO 2010 = Post prime Federer
Beyond AO 2014 = Post prime Nadal
Beyond RG 2016 = Post prime Djokovic

Federer and Nadal are clearly playing worse than in their primes. I don't really see a difference in Djokovic's game. He is still moving like he did in 25.

 

[Hitman]

Wawrinka was hitting the ball with a level of ferocity that it was going to be very tough for Nadal that day, no doubt, because Nadal's weight of shot was not enough to hurt him and he was just crushing winners at will. Probably the only time I saw Wawrinka hit the ball like that again that year was that WTF match against Federer, except he served quite poorly in that WTF match but he still had multiple match points which shows how well he played because Federer didn't play badly. Wawrinka was crushing the ball in that match and kept Federer pushed back on his heels.

Wawrinka can be a handful if he gets a taste of it.

 

[NoleFam]

Wawrinka can be a handful if he gets a taste of it.

Yea when he's feeling it, he can be a real problem. Unlucky for us, he usually feels it when he plays Djokovic. Lol.

 

[StrongRule]

Wawrinka was hitting the ball with a level of ferocity that it was going to be very tough for Nadal that day, no doubt, because Nadal's weight of shot was not doing enough damage to hurt him and he was just crushing winners at will. Probably the only time I saw Wawrinka hit the ball like that again that year was that WTF match against Federer, except he served quite poorly in that WTF match but he still had multiple match points which shows how well he played because Federer didn't play badly. Wawrinka was crushing the ball in that match and kept Federer pushed back on his heels.

The best Wawrinka ever played was in RG 2015 final. But of course you bring down that performance because he beat peak Djokovic. Saying he played better in WTF 2014 is ridiculous.

 

[Hitman]

Federer and Nadal are clearly playing worse than in their primes. I don't really see a difference in Djokovic's game. He is still moving like he did in 25.

Is he bringing that level match in match out...the first thing that goes post prime is your consistency to play at a high level more often that not. Djokovic has way too many ups and downs compared to that consistency he had back during his prime period.

 

[ForehandCross]

Wawrinka was hitting the ball with a level of ferocity that it was going to be very tough for Nadal that day, no doubt, because Nadal's weight of shot was not doing enough damage to hurt him and he was just crushing winners at will. Probably the only time I saw Wawrinka hit the ball like that again that year was that WTF match against Federer, except he served quite poorly in that WTF match but he still had multiple match points which shows how well he played because Federer didn't play badly. Wawrinka was crushing the ball in that match and kept Federer pushed back on his heels.

Exactly. This is how I saw it too. And I am not saying Rafael loses 100% just that it will be a very close match. But I have seldom seen a Nadal fan give that credit to Wawrinka.

 

[Hitman]

Yea when he's feeling it, he can be a real problem. Unlucky for us, he usually feels it when he plays Djokovic. Lol.

That is because Djokovic does tend to get passive when he plays him at times.

 

[NoleFam]

The best Wawrinka ever played was in RG 2015 final. But of course you bring down that performance because he beat peak Djokovic. Saying he played better in WTF 2014 is ridiculous.

No it's not. His best match was actually a match he lost which was 2013 AO. Find me another performance where he played like that. I never said he played better at WTF anyway since I just said he served poorly. I said that was the only time I saw him play at that level again that year like he played in that AO final.

 

[NoleFam]

Exactly. This is how I saw it too. And I am not saying Rafael loses 100% just that it will be a very close match. But I have seldom seen a Nadal fan give that credit to Wawrinka.

Yea it was going to be an extremely tough match for Nadal, or anyone for that matter with an opponent crushing the ball like that.

 

[Hitman]

The best Wawrinka ever played was in RG 2015 final. But of course you bring down that performance because he beat peak Djokovic. Saying he played better in WTF 2014 is ridiculous.

That would make no sense. It would be worse if a bad playing Wawrinka beat a peak Djokovic.

 

[StrongRule]

Is he bringing that level match in match out...the first thing that goes post prime is your consistency to play at a high level more often that not. Djokovic has way too many ups and downs compared to that consistency he had back during his prime period.

My point is this: when we discuss Federer's and Nadal's decline we can actually talk about specific parts of the game, their movement, physical form, confidence, the fact that they had to change their playing style.

On the other hand, what in Djokovic's game tells us he declined? The answer: can't see a decline in any parts of his game (as for the serve it only got better), but he needed 5 sets to beat Thiem in AO, so for sure he is in decline.

 

[NoleFam]

That is because Djokovic does tend to get passive when he plays him at times.

He does and it irritates to me to my absolute limit at times.

 

[junior74]

Yea when he's feeling it, he can be a real problem. Unlucky for us, he usually feels it when he plays Djokovic. Lol.

As a Stan fan, I don't particularly consider this problem a problem

Match-ups, though. Rhythmic play is great for Stan.

 

[StrongRule]

That would make no sense. It would be worse if a bad playing Wawrinka beat a peak Djokovic.

Well, this guy thinks this Wawrinka wouldn't be able to beat 2015 Nadal. Doesn't it mean Wawrinka was very bad?

 

[Hitman]

My point is this: when we discuss Federer's and Nadal's decline we can actually talk about specific parts of the game, their movement, physical form, confidence, the fact that they had to change their playing style.

On the other hand, what in Djokovic's game tells us he declined? The answer: can't see a decline in any parts of his game (as for the serve it only got better), but he needed 5 sets to beat Thiem in AO, so for sure he is in decline.

And my point is this, you cannot specifically just look at a specific attribute and say that if only this has gone down, then there is decline. Decline can come in any form and then loss of other attributes only compound and accelerate the decline even further.

Now, you can say, and I would agree that Djokovic's decline hasn't been as steep as Federer and Nadal, but that doesn't mean Djokovic hasn't declined from the lofty standards he brought week in week out.

This is meant to be a weak era right? So explain to me why Djokovic is unable to go week in week out againt supposedly weak competition and make the final at least of every single event he plays, like he did from the Paris 2014 to RG 2016 period? Why is he losing matches early at IW and Miami, even when he won the last three slams...why are his clay results not what they once were? Why can't he win WTF since 2015, when had won four in a row?

The peak Djokovic was ruthless everywhere.

 

[clayqueen]

IMO

Beyond AO 2010 = Post prime Federer
Beyond AO 2014 = Post prime Nadal
Beyond RG 2016 = Post prime Djokovic

Rafa was sidelined for half of every season between and including 2014-2019 with one injury after another, apart from 2015 when he had lost confidence in is body because of frequent injuries. I've mentioned this a gazillion times every time this subject is brought up but it makes no difference.

 

[NoleFam]

As a Stan fan, I don't particularly consider this problem a problem

Match-ups, though. Rhythmic play is great for Stan.

Of course you don't. As a Djokovic fan though, it has been a problem at times. Yea it's up to players to throw off rhythmic opponents. I think that's why Federer and Nadal did better against him.

 

[ForehandCross]

Match starts with 35 minutes in. First set ends at 1hrs 14 minutes in.

I will concede defeat if anyone finds me 5 points from the set that has Rafael looking completely hampered.

My offer still stands.

 

[Hitman]

He does and it irritates to me to my absolute limit at times.

I think a lot of that comes from Djokovic not seeing him as an equal like Federer, Nadal and Murray, who he gets up for. I have never seen him truly get up for Wawrinka in the slams.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Stan was a bum.