Why is no Nadal fan ready to accept that even without injury Rafael would have had an extremely difficult match with Wawrinka?

Would it have been a very close match


  • Total voters
    41

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Well, this guy thinks this Wawrinka wouldn't be able to beat 2015 Nadal. Doesn't it mean Wawrinka was very bad? :unsure:

Does it? Or maybe he is referring to the match up advantage Nadal has over Wawrinka.

My question to you is, do you think had Nadal made the RG 2015, that Wawrinka would have beat him there?
 

Sabrina

Hall of Fame
Does it? Or maybe he is referring to the match up advantage Nadal has over Wawrinka.

My question to you is, do you think had Nadal made the RG 2015, that Wawrinka would have beat him there?

I personally don't see 2015 RG Nadal beating any of Wawrinka, Murray or even Tsonga tbh.

2016 RG Nadal (assuming that no wrist injury) against them could be interesting though.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Rafa was sidelined for half of every season between between and including 2014-2019 with one injury after another, apart from 2015 when he had lost confidence in is body because of frequent injuries. I've mentioned this a gazillion times every time this subject is brought up but it makes no difference.

OK, but what does that have to do with Nadal's prime period though?
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
I personally don't see 2015 RG Nadal beating any of Wawrinka, Murray or even Tsonga tbh.

2016 RG Nadal (assuming that no wrist injury) against them could be interesting though.

So would you expect Nadal 2015 to lose the RG final to Wawrinka, had it happened? I am assuming you would then.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I think a lot of that comes from Djokovic not seeing him as an equal like Federer, Nadal and Murray, who he gets up. I have never seen him truly get up for Wawrinka in the slams.

He doesn't come out the blocks swinging like he does against those other players, and like he should against Wawrinka. It is kind of puzzling to watch really. I think he sees Stan as dangerous but not like a premier rival like the others so it seems he always feels he is playing a dangerous underdog instead. I don't think he knew/knows how to approach matches with him.
 

Sabrina

Hall of Fame
So would you expect Nadal 2015 to lose the RG final to Wawrinka, had it happened? I am assuming you would then.

Well if Nadal managed to get through Djokovic he would be in great form so I would expect him to butcher Stan like in 2013 or 2017.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
He doesn't come out the blocks swinging like he does against those other players, and like he should against Wawrinka. It is kind of puzzling to watch really. I think he sees Stan as dangerous but not like a premier rival like the others so it seems he always feels he is playing a dangerous underdog instead. I don't think he knew/knows how to approach matches with him.

It doesn't help that the two practice often together, and it does appear Novak lets his guard down heading into a big match against him. While Stan comes out looking for blood.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Well if Nadal managed to get through Djokovic he would be in great form so I would expect him to butcher Stan like in 2013 or 2017.

I think that was the point that some refer to when they said Nadal would have beaten Wawrinka in the 2015 final had he made it there.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
And my point is this, you cannot specifically just look at a specific attribute and say that if only this has gone down, then there is decline. Decline can come in any form and then loss of other attributes only compound and accelerate the decline even further.

Now, you can say, and I would agree that Djokovic's decline hasn't been as steep as Federer and Nadal, but that doesn't mean Djokovic hasn't declined from the lofty standards he brought week in week out.

This is meant to be a weak era right? So explain to me why Djokovic is unable to go week in week out againt supposedly weak competition and make the final at least of every single event he plays, like he did from the Paris 2014 to RG 2016 period? Why is he losing matches early at IW and Miami, even when he won the last three slams...why are his clay results not what they once were? Why can't he win WTF since 2015, when had won four in a row?

The peak Djokovic was ruthless everywhere.
He was coming to RG 2019 semifinal with better results on clay than in 2016 when he won RG. There weren't many clay seasons when he achieved much more.

I do think some of the young players are just more dangerous opponents for Djokovic than many of his 2014-2016 rivals like Murray, Berdych, Nishikori, Raonic. In some of his 2019 losses to young players he didn't play bad, he was just outplayed. Still he won 5 of the last 7 slams. This is called a weak era because except for Medvedev's USO 2019 run the young players were not able to bring their best level to slams. I don't think 2019 was a weak year in BO3 tournaments.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
I think a lot of that comes from Djokovic not seeing him as an equal like Federer, Nadal and Murray, who he gets up for. I have never seen him truly get up for Wawrinka in the slams.
How do you know who Djokovic gets up for? He didn't get up for the 2016 USO nor the 2014 QF against Stan?
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
So noble. Just like the million other times he has retired in the middle of a match.
He retires if he can't move at all. I was courtside when Rafa lost to Goffin in the RR at the O2. H e knew he wasn't fit but he still turned up and tried his best.

Rafael Nadal deserves respect for turning up at O2, but at what cost to his health......

14 NOVEMBER 2017 • 9:27AM

"I made the commitment with the event, the city, with myself... I tried... I cannot keep going. It really doesn't make sense."
Rafael Nadal's withdrawal from the ATP World Tour Finals late on Monday evening wasn't a surprising outcome and he should be applauded for turning up at the season-ending event.

With the world No 1 ranking in the bank and his financial future secure, a half-fit Nadal did not need to show up in London. His team had advised him to give it a miss, but then the 16-times grand slam champion has never given less than his whole body and soul.

One main topic dominated the main build up the event. Would Nadal be fit enough to compete at the O2? Nadal pulled out the Paris Masters ahead of a quarter-final appearance due to a right knee injury and, in all honesty, would've been well within his rights calling time on his season there and then.
Nadal instead felt a duty of care to fulfil a commitment to the organisers of the tour and his allegiance of fans to compete.

 
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Hitman

Bionic Poster
He was coming to RG 2019 semifinal with better results on clay than in 2016 when he won RG. There weren't many clay seasons when he achieved much more.

What about his results in IW and Miami, his two favorite stomping grounds. How did he fare there? You know, the ones that he won back to back to back from 2014 to 2016.

I do think some of the young players are just more dangerous opponents for Djokovic than many of his 2014-2016 rivals like Murray, Berdych, Nishikori, Raonic. In some of his 2019 losses to young players he didn't play bad, he was just outplayed. Still he won 5 of the last 7 slams. This is called a weak era because except for Medvedev's USO 2019 run the young players were not able to bring their best level to slams. I don't think 2019 was a weak year in BO3 tournaments.

So overall, you agree it is a weak era, surely it couldn't have jumped up so much from 2016 that Djokovic who made virtually every single final for 18 months now is appearing lackluster in many places that he once owned with an iron first...IW, Miami, WTF to mention a few.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Does it? Or maybe he is referring to the match up advantage Nadal has over Wawrinka.

My question to you is, do you think had Nadal made the RG 2015, that Wawrinka would have beat him there?
If Nadal met Wawrinka in RG 2015 1/4 final? Yes, Wawrinka would have won in straights. Asking about a meeting in latter rounds is irrelevant because Nadal was never getting past the 1/4 finals anyway. It was clear he was going out against the first decent opponent. Even if we somehow ignore his terrible form in general, we can't ignore that he was physically very bad back then, he was getting tired after a set and a half. So in order to beat Wawrinka he would need to win like 6-2 6-3 6-1 again.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
How do you know who Djokovic gets up for? He didn't get up for the 2016 USO nor the 2014 QF against Stan?

Because Djokovic himself has stated numerous times in interviews that he gets up for rivals Federer, Nadal and Murray, because they are players he has the closest rivalries against. This is something he has mentioned plenty of times. He has never mentioned any other player in the same light when he talks about who gets him going.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Because Djokovic himself has stated numerous times in interviews that he gets up for rivals Federer, Nadal and Murray, because they are players he has the closest rivalries against. This is something he has mentioned plenty of times. He has never mentioned any other player in the same light when he talks about who gets him going.
I've never heard him say that. He doesn't get up for Stan and Kyrgios?
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
If Nadal met Wawrinka in RG 2015 1/4 final? Yes, Wawrinka would have won in straights. Asking about a meeting in latter rounds is irrelevant because Nadal was never getting past the 1/4 finals anyway. It was clear he was going out against the first decent opponent. Even if we somehow ignore his terrible form in general, we can't ignore that he was physically very bad back then, he was getting tired after a set and a half. So in order to beat Wawrinka he would need to win like 6-2 6-3 6-1 again.

Maybe this is where your debate with those that say Nadal would have beaten Wawrinka breaks down. Maybe, they are referring to the actual draw playing out and Nadal getting through to the final...you are swapping draws around.

I mean, people can also say, had Federer played Djokovic in AO 2016 in the fourth round when he hit 100 UEs against Simon, maybe he would have won also.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
What about his results in IW and Miami, his two favorite stomping grounds. How did he fare there? You know, the ones that he won back to back to back from 2014 to 2016.



So overall, you agree it is a weak era, surely it couldn't have jumped up so much from 2016 that Djokovic who made virtually every single final for 18 months now is appearing lackluster in many places that he once owned with an iron first...IW, Miami, WTF to mention a few.
Did he play great in these tournaments in 2014-2016 though? Not really. He struggled really hard in them. (except for Miami 2014). In 2015 he could hit 3 double faults in a tiebreak and still win the match, nobody could take advantage of his poor play. In 2019 he played bad and was punished.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
I've never heard him say that. He doesn't get up for Stan and Kyrgios?

Look. Let me make this very clear...he has stated that he sees Federer, Nadal and Murray as his true career rivals as he has said that those three shaped him as a tennis player and forced him to get better. His attitude towards those three is based on massive amount of respect because of how historic their rivalries were from the very start. Wawrinka started to make strides from 2013 on ward, before that match Djokovic was comfortably beating him, it took him a while even in that match to understand he wasn't dealing with the Stan he was used to playing.

He has struggled to get out of that funk numerous times against Stan, being his practice also doesn't help Novak, since they hang out and play all the time, but it has helped Stan. That is on Novak and he has no one to blame but himself.

As for Kyrgios, well, he played him twice back when Novak was in his worst form, and the animosity was no where close to what it would go onto become. We will just need to see how how he deals with Nick when they play again.
 
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StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe this is where your debate with those that say Nadal would have beaten Wawrinka breaks down. Maybe, they are referring to the actual draw playing out and Nadal getting through to the final...you are swapping draws around.

I mean, people can also say, had Federer played Djokovic in AO 2016 in the fourth round when he hit 100 UEs against Simon, maybe he would have won also.
Ok, let's suppose Djokovic and Murray would both get heavy injured and retired. (I just don't see another way of this version of Nadal beating them). I would still favor Wawrinka in the final. Don't see what is there to discuss here, Nadal was clearly not ready to beat any decent opponents back then. Berdych was his biggest pigeon and totally destroyed him in AO, and that was a better Nadal than the one who showed up in RG. So matchups are irrelevant in that case.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Did he play great in these tournaments in 2014-2016 though? Not really. He struggled really hard in them. (except for Miami 2014). In 2015 he could hit 3 double faults in a tiebreak and still win the match, nobody could take advantage of his poor play. In 2019 he played bad and was punished.

He won them! So he obviously played them a lot better than anyone else. He did the IW-Miami double three times, not just once, but three times, and now he is struggling to make any dents there. Are you seriously telling me that Novak hasn't gotten any worse?
 

btsjungkook

Professional
I think a lot of that comes from Djokovic not seeing him as an equal like Federer, Nadal and Murray, who he gets up for. I have never seen him truly get up for Wawrinka in the slams.
Before 2013, Djokovic used to play more aggressively against Wawrinka now he has become more defensive. I feel 2011 was his aggressive peak, then he changed his game to a more defensive style.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Ok, let's suppose Djokovic and Murray would both get heavy injured and retired. (I just don't see another way of this version of Nadal beating them). I would still favor Wawrinka in the final. Don't see what is there to discuss here, Nadal was clearly not ready to beat any decent opponents back then. Berdych was his biggest pigeon and totally destroyed him in AO, and that was a better Nadal than the one who showed up in RG. So matchups are irrelevant in that case.

So IF both Djokovic and Murray were both seriously injured, then and only then Wawrinka would win the final? You know the chances of that are very slim to happen to two elite athletes in sequence, one yes, but two? Realistically if Nadal makes the final, he beats at least one of Djokovic or Murray, which more than likely means Nadal 2015 beats Wawrinka in the final.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
There was a good chance Wawrinka might have won even if Nadal weren't injured, but Nadal is more or less a nightmare matchup for Wawrinka. Their 19-3 H2H with the 3 Stan wins coming in 2014-2015 where Nadal's level fell off a cliff would suggest that.

It just wouldn't have been a straight sets affair in any case, and by set 2 / 3 Nadal was serving and literally walking to the net to volley until the painkillers he took started having their effect.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
He won them! So he obviously played them a lot better than anyone else. The did the IW-Miami double three times, not just once, but three times, and now he is struggling to make any dents there. Are you seriously telling me that Novak hasn't gotten any worse?
There is a difference between winning a tournament and playing great tennis in it. In IW and Miami 2011 Djokovic indeed played great. Didn't really see that in 2014-2015 (again, except for Miami 2014), leave alone 2016. He was vulnerable at these specific tournaments but nobody could take advantage of that. I actually remember him beating Thiem in Miami 2016 with 6 winners and 36 unforced errors. Was this a much better performance than the one he had against RBA in Miami 2019? I'm not sure.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Before 2013, Djokovic used to play more aggressively against Wawrinka now he has become more defensive. I feel 2011 was his aggressive peak, then he changed his game to a more defensive style.

Yes, 2011 was his aggressive peak, I don't know many who would disagree with that.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
So IF both Djokovic and Murray were both seriously injured, then and only then Wawrinka would win the final? You know the chances of that are very slim to happen to two elite athletes in sequence, one yes, but two? Realistically if Nadal makes the final, he beats at least one of Djokovic or Murray, which more than likely means Nadal 2015 beats Wawrinka in the final.
He was never going to beat them, so why is this relevant? Yes, if Nadal was at least in decent form he would have destroyed Wawrinka. But it is 2015 Nadal we are talking about.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
There is a difference between winning a tournament and playing great tennis in it. In IW and Miami 2011 Djokovic indeed played great. Didn't really see that in 2014-2015 (again, except for Miami 2014), leave alone 2016. He was vulnerable at these specific tournaments but nobody could take advantage of that. I actually remember him beating Thiem in Miami 2016 with 6 winners and 36 unforced errors. Was this a much better performance than the one he had against RBA in Miami 2019? I'm not sure.

Are you seriously going to tell me that he didn't play well in six tournaments that he won, three IW and three Miami. I don't have anything more to say on this topic, if you think that the 2019 version is similar in level to what Djokovic produced over a stretch of three years at both events. Moving on from this.
 
D

Deleted member 770948

Guest
2014 was a long time ago, so we don't talk about that AO Final much recently, so I can't find my posts on the subject, but I have said numerous times that Wawrinka was playing so great that he may have won regardless of Rafa's health.
However I must say, I lost respect for Wawrinka in that match, because his behavior was disgraceful.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
He was never going to beat them, so why is this relevant? Yes, if Nadal was at least in decent form he would have destroyed Wawrinka. But it is 2015 Nadal we are talking about.

Because we all talk hypothetical matches here all the time. Aren't you also making hypothetical statements? It only happened the way it happened, yes, we know this.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Are you seriously going to tell me that he didn't play well in six tournaments that he won, three IW and three Miami. I don't have anything more to say on this topic, if you think that the 2019 version is similar in level to what Djokovic produced over a stretch of three years at both events. Moving on from this.
Lol, yes, all top players win a lot of tournaments where they don't play their best. Sorry if I don't think Djokovic was GOATing in IW and Miami 2016. I mean, even the 2016 version of Nadal would have a chance to beat him in IW 2016 if he was a bit mentally stronger.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Lol, yes, all top players win a lot of tournaments where they don't play their best. Sorry if I don't think Djokovic was GOATing in IW and Miami 2016. I mean, even the 2016 version of Nadal would have a chance to beat him in IW 2016 if he was a bit mentally stronger.

You are encompassing an entire three year period at two of the biggest events on the tour. Sorry if I don't think you are being fair with your judgement about Djokovic here.
 

RaulRamirez

Legend
What's the point in "re-litigating" this match?

Stan deserved to win - period - and injuries are a part of the game. But if anyone thinks Rafa was faking it, I feel sorry for you.

Does it matter who would have won if Rafa was moving freely? I don't know, and don't particularly care.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
There was a good chance Wawrinka might have won even if Nadal weren't injured, but Nadal is more or less a nightmare matchup for Wawrinka. Their 19-3 H2H with the 3 Stan wins coming in 2014-2015 where Nadal's level fell off a cliff would suggest that.

It just wouldn't have been a straight sets affair in any case, and by set 2 / 3 Nadal was serving and literally walking to the net to volley until the painkillers he took started having their effect.
Nadal has beaten Stan 19 times in EASY straight sets.
 
Didn't Rafa once lost to Fed at the WTF something like 3 and 0, only to beat Federer rather comfortably two months later at the AO.
WTF being some sort of a barometer for AO!? Yeah, not very true. ;)
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
He had beaten Stan 19 times in easy straight sets except the three times he didn’t.

Not to mention their 7-6 7-6 WTF match was anything but “EASY”.
So what? Stan struggled to beat Nadal in his worst ever form in Paris and won 76 76.
 

ND-13

Hall of Fame
One of the biggest upsets in Nadal's career at the stage that came in.

Nadal's prime stopped in 2012.

2013 was more like a renaissance that Fed had in 2011-12.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
I am going off to sleep. The offer still stands
You wouldn't know - if we are to trust Rafa and that he injured himself during practice, it is highly possible that he had popped in a pain killer, the effect started wearing off after a set and you could evidently see his form deteriorating in the second set or it could be adrenaline pumping him for a set. If you don't want to trust his words, well look at the h2h between the two. Rafa would take it to fifth giving a fight. Could he have won? Perhaps. I would tend to say yes considering their history. But of course we never know.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Nadal generally wasn't in amazing form at AO 14. Fedr gave him a layup in the semis, but he struggled quite largely with Greg and Kori, although that was back in the days when those guys had utility beyond being the punchline to many a joke. 09/12 AO are clearly a level above this.

That being said, I believe that Stan went up a set and a break by flat outplaying Nadal and while a healthy Nadal could have maybe posed more of a threat at the end or maybe even clawed back into the 2nd, Stan would have had the big early lead no matter what. And like I said, given Nadal's general form at the event, I think he would have had to rely on some dips from Stan to actually win the match even if healthy.

To be fair, Stan was also up a set+break on Djokovic the year before and then Novak was able to fight back into it.
 

ADuck

Legend
Match would've been in Nadal's hands. Should have won the first set even, had he not choked away 3 BP's. It's likely Nadal was injured in the warmup judging by how passively he was playing. Also possible he wasn't injured then, but doesn't change the fact he played a crap first set and would have likely started playing at a level high enough to beat Wawrinka in the subsequent sets.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Because Stan, even at his best, could never sustain that level over a whole match to beat Nadal. I agree it would've been close, probably a 5-setter or 4 tight sets, but my money would've been on Nadal for sure. He's the king of big matches.

Nadal has been outplayed for a set by zoning underdogs before. Back then, they rarely finished the job.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
What kind of a thread is this? Rafa is 19-3 against Stan and has completely owned him throughout his career. Stan's best surface, by far, is clay, and Nadal blitzed him at RG in 2013 and 2017, losing only 6 games in each match.

Rafa won the first 13 matches they ever played. To even mention Stan in the same breath as Nadal is almost an insult to Rafa. They're in two totally different hemispheres in terms of talent, achievement and results.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
In their RG 2017 final, before match started the commentators were saying Stan was the only one who could take it to Nadal, bla, bla, bla; that Stan's wicked bh would make life difficult for Rafa. They were 2:2 in the beginning of the first set which made the commies very excited that this was going to be a blockbuster, pop corn final but soon ate their words when Stan was blitzed off the court winning just 4 games in the 2nd & 3rd sets.
 
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Red Rick

Bionic Poster
How about Wawrinka's record against Federer, Djokovic ? They were as abysmal as Stan's against Rafa. Difference is both Djokerer met Stan quite a lot in slams against Wawrinka in 2013-17 and Wawrinka had almost even h2h with Djokovic and stretched Federer a lot.
Wawrinka is 0 - 18 or something vs Federer on HC. Djokovic is his only half okay matchup of the Big 3. Nadal, if healthy is the heavy favorite.
 
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