Vincent-C
Legend
Good video! Thanks for posting it.
Why Is Serve Volley Tennis Dead?
- Thread starter edberg volleys
- Start date
ojo rojo
Legend
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Things needed to revive serve and volley
1. Worse courts - you need bad bounce to start reducing risk and going forward. I remember in 2018 I think in Newport, courts so bad, Ramkumar Ramanathan reached final by doing serve and volley. He can't do it on firm courts at all.
2. Worse rackets - rackets that allow far lesser spins and speed. Heavy racket , natural strings.
This automatically tells that serve and volley as primary style is a game of the past.
You do anything else like speeding up the courts and making balls lighter, and it would make the serving so successful that opelka isner hurkacz style players would dominate.
There is no middle ground today.
1. Worse courts - you need bad bounce to start reducing risk and going forward. I remember in 2018 I think in Newport, courts so bad, Ramkumar Ramanathan reached final by doing serve and volley. He can't do it on firm courts at all.
2. Worse rackets - rackets that allow far lesser spins and speed. Heavy racket , natural strings.
This automatically tells that serve and volley as primary style is a game of the past.
You do anything else like speeding up the courts and making balls lighter, and it would make the serving so successful that opelka isner hurkacz style players would dominate.
There is no middle ground today.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Even a 6 footer guy like raz is routinely hitting 130 mph today. Make the courts faster and find out.
We saw Djokovic vs Sinner ace fest in 2023 ATP finals.
We saw Djokovic vs Sinner ace fest in 2023 ATP finals.
The coaches don't have it in their repertoire anymore. People like Roche or Edberg were the last, who could transport the style to the younger generation. Mac taught Raonic a volley lesson before his Wim run in 2014, and Raonic was never more successful on grass. Bollettieri brought a new tennis ressort style into tennis, big serve, big forehand, double handed backhand, and go to the net to shake hands.
Volley is a complex art, it has to do with movement, anticipation, and not the least confidence. Nobody knows the tango-step now, which was vital to the volley movement at the t-line. Nobody knows how to play deep, low slice approach shots, the topspin is the false shot, to approach the net, it stays too high, loses depth and is not skidding through. Federer would have won 2 Wims over Djoker with a better slice approach. A combo-slyle like Connors would still be successful today, whith soild baselining, but going vertical at the right moment. On grass, Alcaraz is executing it pretty well..
Volley is a complex art, it has to do with movement, anticipation, and not the least confidence. Nobody knows the tango-step now, which was vital to the volley movement at the t-line. Nobody knows how to play deep, low slice approach shots, the topspin is the false shot, to approach the net, it stays too high, loses depth and is not skidding through. Federer would have won 2 Wims over Djoker with a better slice approach. A combo-slyle like Connors would still be successful today, whith soild baselining, but going vertical at the right moment. On grass, Alcaraz is executing it pretty well..
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DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Didn't the elder Zverev brother defeat Murray in the fourth round of the 2017 Australian Open using serve and volleys as his main strategy?
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Wrong thing to say coaches don't know it.
TennisGrandpA
Rookie
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Did I say otherwise?
TennisGrandpA
Rookie
That’s debatable lol
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
TennisGrandpA
Rookie
SnV occasionally can be a great tactics but even then fans criticise the players for approaching the net on important points(Fed on Mp vs Nole. Nadal on a crucial Bp vs Nole at Wimbledon 2018 5th set) SnV as a regular style will be outright suicidal.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I think SnV is reaching its limit. You can do it less than 10% of the time at pro tour now.
TennisGrandpA
Rookie
It’s same in football where Fans Moan about lack of number 10 in modern football play style due to his elegance and beauty but now efficiency took over it’s place and number 10 became obsolete. Sport evolves with time.
Martin J
Rookie
This is a great observation. I recently re-watched the Lopez - Djokovic 2015 QF USO match and Feliciano was quite successful with the deep and low slice approaches, it was very hard for Novak to hit an effective passing shot and lost most of these points. On grass it would be a more effective shot due to lower bounce, but Lopez does it better than Fed.
GRASScaraz
Hall of Fame
Isn't Shelton a serve and volley guy?
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Making volley on every ball is not a sign of talent. It is hacky way of living.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Spoken by someone who has clearly never serve and volleyed. Taking the first ball out of the air requires a combination of explosiveness, speed, hand eye coordination, touch, and skill that sitting on a lawn chair ten feet behind the baseline simply does not.
TennisGrandpA
Rookie
Personally I’ll prefer a Nole like Bh DTL or Rafa like FDL baseline winner after a 10 shots rally over a 2 shot brilliant volley.
Youngheart
Semi-Pro
There's a health question in the talk about S & V. It requires a quick sudden speed forward just after serving.
For average club players, that puts a higher risk of hurting the Achilles Tendon, even in strong people.
Actually, maybe when a person's muscles are at their strongest level, after years of exercise, that is the time
when the tendons and ligaments are under the most stress, because of the ability for instantly fast movements.
------ So Be It ------
For average club players, that puts a higher risk of hurting the Achilles Tendon, even in strong people.
Actually, maybe when a person's muscles are at their strongest level, after years of exercise, that is the time
when the tendons and ligaments are under the most stress, because of the ability for instantly fast movements.
------ So Be It ------
toby55555
Hall of Fame
It was lethally boring when both players S&V’d continuously though; I used to get so bored watching Becker v Edberg.
I was watching Navratilova v Graf on YouTube last week and that was a good mix.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Smecz
Professional
Too little angular, given on a racquet
Especially in epic fashion
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
What we’ve seen is an evolution of the equipment and playing conditions, but not necessarily an evolution of the modern hardcourt player themselves in terms of retaining a full tennis toolkit.
They are rewarded for weaponising a high powered and phenomenally athletic power baseline game because it’s “good enough” to win basically everything just below the tier of winning a major, but it’s a more limited median playing style at the cost of variety.
We all think it’s great seeing these superhumans who can run and jump and hit frozen rope 200kmh DTL forehands until a big moment arrives for them in a match and it’s a disaster for them because they don’t have a full offensive toolkit. Instead of effectively using the net or forecourt they’ve ended up losing big points with a flubbed volley or they get bogged down and timid or nervous to attack because they become over-reliant on ground strokes only and they don’t have any transitional offensive strategies that involve net play to support their groundstrokes and take the pressure off themselves and put it on their opponent.
The interesting thing is that at the absolute peak of the game it’s totally different. All the men’s major winners of this slowcourt era have all at some point made a concerted effort to get way better at the net, or have come on tour already having great hands. It’s almost like they understand that even now skill in the forecourt is an advantage that counts.
Smecz
Professional
Very good observations, yes that's right, Kyrgios reached the Wimbledon 2022 final thanks to having fun with the ball, if he had a stronger psyche he would probably have won, but oh well...
They are afraid to go to the net because they probably assume in advance that they will be passed, and in reality, a sharp, strong attack is often just a formality...
The fear of passing shots prevents them from learning how to play with the ball in match conditions, and they lose this skill...
We often see situations where a player cannot finish a smash, and is defeated for a weak smash.!!
I cannot understand why they do not learn to play serve and volley in clubs, why they do not learn to play 1Hbh, and various variants of tennis, after all, a player can still play on the end line and hit, but he will always have more skills in his arsenal.
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LeftyMagic
Rookie
this should end the thread here. fully accurate. they mix it in now as a tactic, it’s not dead at all. i like when carlos does it its fun. u just need to be quicker forward now. ppl need to watch the game more
Bill Lobsalot
Hall of Fame
It's part of the better player's skill set. Not dead.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Wrong.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
I forgot to mention much greater reflexes and anticipation too. Thanks.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nope.. you want s&v and just reflex based tennis, watch doubles.
Singles for 2 decades has played baseline along with some net play which all is technique. No net play isn't some super high technique. Old stupid way of thinking.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Net play requires extremely good technique, with far less margin for error in execution than groundstrokes. If it was so easy, Novak's form wouldn't be so ugly.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Novak's form isn't so ugly. He wins 70% of pts at the net vs the power generation with their extremely wristy next gen forehands.
Don't talk nonsense..
Everything requires great technique. Hitting ball for 10+ shots without missing has to have great technique.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Novak's technique is butt ugly, and this is coming from a fan. He wins points at net that mostly involve easy putaways, and we both know it.
Don't be silly, your argument has no legs.
Hitting groundstrokes over and over again has far more margin for error than hitting a volley, the exact timing of when you hit it, will determine whether it's an amazing half volley winner, or an embarrassing net flub. I'm not comparing Novak's volleying to today's or even Fed's standards, I'm comparing him to Pete's. Go back and watch some solid 90s, or even early 2000s tennis from Pete and look at how often he took knee level bullets and hit winners, or aggressive volleys. Today, those would go into the net if lucky, if not, high as a kite into the stands.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I am not silly.
We both don't know that Djokovic technique is ugly.
It is just as good as any of the over exaggerated volliers I know.
Clay lover
Legend
I think I've said enough about this topic but I also want to add that tennis is a game decided by extremely slim margins with even the most dominant players having overall point winning percentages in the low fifties.
So you simply need the combination of the various factors mentioned including racquet tech, surfaces and modern technique to boost the odds of the returner ever so slightly for the scale to tip completely in favour of baselining. If even you have a 5% higher chance of losing the point with S n V, that compounds into a huge risk over the course of a long match.
I'm just saying this because people seem to blame coaches not teaching the art for the fall of S n V, but I suspect most coaches, at least initially when they decided to make the shift towards baseline tennis, took risk management and analytics into account. After all, they're the professionals, not us.
As for whether the trend has gotten to the point where coaches are now TOO HESITANT to take risks, maybe. But the initial transition definitely had a reason.
So you simply need the combination of the various factors mentioned including racquet tech, surfaces and modern technique to boost the odds of the returner ever so slightly for the scale to tip completely in favour of baselining. If even you have a 5% higher chance of losing the point with S n V, that compounds into a huge risk over the course of a long match.
I'm just saying this because people seem to blame coaches not teaching the art for the fall of S n V, but I suspect most coaches, at least initially when they decided to make the shift towards baseline tennis, took risk management and analytics into account. After all, they're the professionals, not us.
As for whether the trend has gotten to the point where coaches are now TOO HESITANT to take risks, maybe. But the initial transition definitely had a reason.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Every sport looks for most efficient way to win. You are right. I think many of current players can do a lot of s&v successfully if they are put in older generation as well. We can see it when they play doubles .
Some guys like rublev are hopeless.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Love the enthusiasm, but neither are serve and volleyers. Both rarely come in, and when they do, it's almost always in the middle of a point, not after a serve.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I think there were a couple of generations at the start of the poly era which indeed had poor volley technique and did not go to the net to finish points during a rally even when they got good court position. But in the last 5-7 years, the young players coming up have command of good volley technique and approach the net when they sense an advantage to doing so. Maybe it is a reaction to players like Nadal, Medvedev and others standing so far back behind the baseline. However, it just means they go to the net on closer to 15% of points rather than 5%.
S/V is still not seen as a winning strategy due to the effectiveness of S+1 and R+1 groundstrokes and a guy like Maxime Cressy who couldn’t get to the top probably just accentuates the point in the eyes of coaches. However, using S/V as a surprise tactic at big moments and sometimes on faster indoors courts is not uncommon these days. I don’t see it becoming a mainstream strategy for the majority of points unless they make rule changes or put constraints on using poly which I certainly don’t want as a fan.
S/V is still not seen as a winning strategy due to the effectiveness of S+1 and R+1 groundstrokes and a guy like Maxime Cressy who couldn’t get to the top probably just accentuates the point in the eyes of coaches. However, using S/V as a surprise tactic at big moments and sometimes on faster indoors courts is not uncommon these days. I don’t see it becoming a mainstream strategy for the majority of points unless they make rule changes or put constraints on using poly which I certainly don’t want as a fan.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Very good point. Nowadays everyone want to finish the point as soon as possible.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
As a viewer, sure. As a player, nothing beats the feeling of a crisp volley winner after a serve.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
These players you mention are mostly putting away easy volleys, even when forced to stretch. How often do you see them hitting an aggressive volley by their knees, or a half volley winner at the service line? In other words, how often do you see them making a truly difficult, or a truly "bread and butter" volley? Carlos seems competent with the putaways, but his attempts at firsts and blocks often make me cringe.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Excellent observation. Generally speaking, Roger's backhand slice is better than Pete's, but when it comes to the approach slice, he had much to learn.
Martin J
Rookie
Extending the grass season by introducing one or two Masters on the surface and speeding up some indoor hard courts during the post-USO part of the season (though it has already been done to some extent, which I approve) would encourage coaches and players to invest more in developing their forecourt skills without fearing of it being a bad investment. Nowadays, you basically have one Major, couple of small (points-wise) tournaments, and a few even smaller events on grass and that's it.
Not saying people would serve and volley 80% of time, but I strongly believe the re-introduction/arrival of the new generation of all-court players is very possible. Just my 0.02.
The Great Gatsby
New User
Not really. He's just a guy who serves and volleys from time to time.
I feel he could be a guy that serves and volleys on the majority of his first serves, and probably on a fair amount of his second serves when you think about it. But alas, he and his father have their own plan of attack on how to play.
As for the topic, of course the slowing of the courts and poly strings is why serve and volleying isn't how it used to be. It's not because there was some sudden evolution in human development that allowed a lot of people to became incredible returners of serves. No, it's because they slowed everything down.
besides the coaches, other circumstances play a role. Technically the double handed backhand makes the volley more difficult and shortens the reach. Carpet was a great surface for a volley game, the bounce was lower than on hard courts, and attackers could put on more pressure. Someone mentions doubles, where the volley is still a main weapon. But the top players very seldom play doubles today, its now a different sport played by different players. The old volleyers like Sedgman, Roche, Newk, Mac or Edberg were all great doubles stars, and ranked top in singles and doubles.
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