Ronaldo
Talk Tennis Guru
Can You Wobble?Different parts of the body need to be synchronized and not keep wobbling around.
Can You Wobble?Different parts of the body need to be synchronized and not keep wobbling around.
It's interesting how you differentiate the serve from throwing by the upward motion.Serve is the hardest shot because you there's no one to blame when you make miss
the misconception that the serve is a throw motion is partly wrong, especially since throwing motion is meant for you to follow through forward and down, whereas tennis serve follow through is typically up, foward, and then down.
The serve is a complex motion using the whole body and it’s counter-intuitive. The intuitive serve which many self-taught players use is the frying-pan serve. A real serve is much more complex.What makes the serve so hard for you to learn?
When teaching this or that, something I've ripped off from reading Vic Braden is the idea of giving a student what he liked to call a "license to miss". When developing players are working on a new move or different technique, his pitch was that it's important for them to feel free to make a bit of a mess. When they understand that they pretty much have to spray some balls around to grow accustomed to using a different swing, new grip, etc., they're much less prone to frustration as they learn it.You're correct that I think it would be counter-productive to literally work on one skill at a time.
But the reason this fails is because the coach will tell you to correct one thing and when you do, it will throw something else out of whack. Then you fix that thing and it wrecks a 3rd. You fix the 3rd and you're back to doing the 1st thing wrong.
One of the ways many can improve is by working on the toss. This you can isolate mostly from the other elements. Sure, certain serve techniques might call for a higher toss or one that's further this way or that but the general motion is the same.
I've never tried teaching someone the serve from the very beginning. If I do give advice, it's on refining something existing. But there may be multiple somethings that need addressing; this is certainly the case for my serve: not enough shoulder tilt, not enough core rotation, dropping the tossing arm too soon, etc. If I try to fix everything simultaneously, I end up frustrated and without progress. If I can at least do one thing better without screwing everything else up, that's worth pursuing.
"So federer in 0.5seconds sets the racket at a precise angle of 23.7 degrees which then changes to 32 degrees by 0.7 seconds after the ball reaches its zenith. I must replicate it exactly."Because you overthink a small overanalyse it. This whole forum is prone to that. No good player learnt the serve by looking at freeze frames and trying to emulate every single racket position. Hmm. So federer in 0.5seconds sets the racket at a precise angle of 23.7 degrees which then changes to 32 degrees by 0.7 seconds after the ball reaches its zenith. I must replicate it exactly.
Start off learning how every kid does. Start off your racket in trophy position already and go from there. Do repetitions of that until you can consistently get the ball in and where you want it to go, both regarding the ball toss, and the end product. Then add the full motion. Then add the legs.
Any junior doesn’t practice tennis and get better by looking at freeze frames and other unnecessary sh*t. They practice. So why don’t you?
No, a junior didn’t look at freeze frames. His coach did. And even more, a world-renown coach did who did a lecture which a kid’s coach attended to improve his knowledge and understanding.Any junior doesn’t practice tennis and get better by looking at freeze frames and other unnecessary sh*t. They practice. So why don’t you?
Because you overthink a small overanalyse it. This whole forum is prone to that. No good player learnt the serve by looking at freeze frames and trying to emulate every single racket position. Hmm. So federer in 0.5seconds sets the racket at a precise angle of 23.7 degrees which then changes to 32 degrees by 0.7 seconds after the ball reaches its zenith. I must replicate it exactly.
Start off learning how every kid does. Start off your racket in trophy position already and go from there. Do repetitions of that until you can consistently get the ball in and where you want it to go, both regarding the ball toss, and the end product. Then add the full motion. Then add the legs.
Any junior doesn’t practice tennis and get better by looking at freeze frames and other unnecessary sh*t. They practice. So why don’t you?
I will look up Nick video, butNick at Intuitive Tennis is very persuasive that there’s no point trying to control the motion beyond the initiation of the takeback (till the point just before the apex of the trophy pose). After that point things happen too fast and rely on too many body segments interacting. His view is that correct initiation and tempo will get you there after sufficient reps and that trying to exert consious control through the acceleration phase will choke your serve, which I agree with. Worth a look if it’s messing with your head.
I think the Waiter's Tray will show the racket path closer in the direction of the ball's trajectory than for the racket path of the high level serve. Racket path is the path of the center of the head. Also, for a WT the racket face will not change much in azimuth as it moves forward. It will change much more for a serve with ISR. The above things show better with a camera above the server.Paging @Chas Tennis and anyone who's interested,
Do you think the waiter tray serve problem can be addressed by knowing where on the ball to contact? Essentially contact the top half of the ball.
If you open the racket face to the sky, it'll be very hard to contact the top of the ball.
See the contact points of all serves are at the top, ie above the ball equator.
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serve isn't hard. it is hard only if you think it is hard and you have very very poor mechanics. but you can develop fluid service motion in short time like 2 month at most.What makes the serve so hard for you to learn?
Is it because we don't know how to throw? Too complicated to swing at something way above the head?
Is the serve a very advanced skill?
What mental image do you use to help you?
(I'm asking for a friend)
“In other words the serve doesn't have to be hit at blinding speed that you can't register anything, right?”
That’s right, slowing the tempo helps with learning. You’ll make it harder by increasing power and tempo until you start getting repeatable results and it feels comfortable. The intuitive tennis material advocates using a slow tempo when learning (ie the whole motion and not selectively slowing individual segments): the point about not trying to exert conscious control during the acceleration phase Is that by doing so your movement will be forced and it will throw off your timing.
Record it at 240 fps. Approximate the distance from contact to landing and count the frames. Then plug the numbers in here: https://donthireddy.us/tennis/speed.htmlPeople,
Without a speed measuring device, how would you judge or evaluate your serves when you practice?
Is hitting the back fence a good measure of pace? How high the ball hits is for the kick?
Awesome! that's really helpful.Record it at 240 fps. Approximate the distance from contact to landing and count the frames. Then plug the numbers in here: https://donthireddy.us/tennis/speed.html
This is pretty accurate at 240 fps, and it's one the simplest ways to measure without a radar.
But just buying the radar gun is easier.
In that case, given the length of time you've been posting on this board, you should have both a fluid and mechanically sound serve. If you have the courage of your convictions, I for one would like to see it.serve isn't hard. it is hard only if you think it is hard and you have very very poor mechanics. but you can develop fluid service motion in short time like 2 month at most.
I do have good mechanics on serve. I use shoulderturn and legs and kinetic chain very well. one continuous motion without hitches is very importantIn that case, given the length of time you've been posting on this board, you should have both a fluid and mechanically sound serve. If you have the courage of your convictions, I for one would like to see it.
is federer doing the serve motion correctly here? because the first yellow line (his arm) isnt vertical, it looks like its 30 degrees from verticalCan someone tell me...
Considering the horizontal blue line as where Fed's racket tip touches as he contacts the ball, after contacting the ball, does Fed's racket tip immediately drops below or rises above the blue line?
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It’s meditative and satisfactory to practice, no?is federer doing the serve motion correctly here? because the first yellow line (his arm) isnt vertical, it looks like its 30 degrees from vertical
the serve is the hardest shot for sure, because u have to use the continental grip, its very boring to practice, it uses different muscles than ground strokes
One problem for learning the serve - and maybe the greatest roadblock - is having false beliefs, those that don't match up to what is seen in clear high speed videos or otherwise known.is federer doing the serve motion correctly here? because the first yellow line (his arm) isnt vertical, it looks like its 30 degrees from vertical
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AbsolutelyIt’s meditative and satisfactory to practice, no?
Who assumes that?..............................................................................
I think we always assume that the contact point and getting to it is always the problem. .............................
Hmm.. its cringeworthy to discuss the goat's wrongness.is federer doing the serve motion correctly here? because the first yellow line (his arm) isnt vertical, it looks like its 30 degrees from vertical
Good stuff!When teaching this or that, something I've ripped off from reading Vic Braden is the idea of giving a student what he liked to call a "license to miss". When developing players are working on a new move or different technique, his pitch was that it's important for them to feel free to make a bit of a mess. When they understand that they pretty much have to spray some balls around to grow accustomed to using a different swing, new grip, etc., they're much less prone to frustration as they learn it.
When I sometimes work on a really basic serve with a beginner, the very first thing I like to try to dial in is a comfortable motion without even swinging at a ball. This means a comfortable tempo and no funky contortions. When that's sorted out, we start working on consistent contact using that comfortable motion, but directing the ball to a target is not an issue yet. All I want them to do initially is just hit it... with a decent move.
Just some thoughts![]()
A picture's worth a thousand words. A video consists of hundreds of picture frames is worth ...well ALOT of wordsI just went through a PTR training video specifically on common serve problems...and have me rethink about this thread.
What part of the serve are we having issues with? I think we always assume that the contact point and getting to it is always the problem. From the video, it gives a better break down on where a server's mechanic may break; but curious to see what everyone's feedback is.
Federer is not the best model for the upper arm line aligning with the shoulders line. In fact, the shoulders line aligned to upper arm instruction itself is simplified. The upper arm is usually seen to be higher than the line between the two shoulders extended, but not by too many degrees...... Federer is sometimes seen above the 10-20 degrees up often seen.Hmm.. its cringeworthy to discuss the goat's wrongness.
But no, Federer serve captured in this instance is very much text book and thus can be used as a model for you. I do that.
His arm is not vertical, and it's not necessary, as long as it lines up with the shoulder line, which is one of the keys.
So when you serve, focus on your shoulder FIRST. Line it up correctly then the arm will follow with ease
I'm inclined to believe you as it's no big deal either way. I guess there's no point in asking to see it again, given you've declined several other requests in the past.I do have good mechanics on serve. I use shoulderturn and legs and kinetic chain very well. one continuous motion without hitches is very important
Sport is about speed. Speed is what separates the players.I guess what makes it hard is the pressure to serve fast. If you take it from the basics and dont worry about the speed, it can be simple, provided you can toss the ball consistently. My service form right from the beginning was too complicated. Over time I reduced all the superfluous bits, started practicing with the left hand ball toss, and even stopped jumping on the serve, helped a lot, more consistent, a little bit faster, more accuracy. Later on I'll reintroduce things after I master the basics.
There's two things that lead people to dinking. Not caring to learn the form, or caring more about speed than learning the form. Speed is actually the easiest bit to attain. I've seen people who can smack the ball hard using a eastern grip, tossing the ball far in front and just muscling it for an easy 90 mph, but sending it wildly out of control. Since they don't know the form, for their second serve they dink.Sport is about speed. Speed is what separates the players.
If you remove speed from the serve, I guess there's little point in learning it because virtually everyone already can intuitively serve/dink the ball over.