Why is unit turn suboptimal in rec tennis?

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I think I might have found the culprit. By the way the term unit turn may need to be replaced with unit coil. If you hit in neutral or closed stance you already have a unit turn, right? Sort of. But we know this doesn't count as you didn't store any energy like a spring. That's why unit coil explains it better. Anyway, in an open or semi open stance why is it difficult for rec players to do it although we keep being told to do so? We can't all be dumb! We are not dumb but there are two things here: lack of flexibility and the point of this thread, lack of knee bend! I have noticed that the latter makes the unit turn much easier. Also easier to fix than the flexibility issue. Try and see yourself.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
The bent knee ready position is an athletic stance that exists in all sports; it applies to all sports - baseball, basketball, football, martial arts, tennis. Why don’t rec players do it? It has nothing to do with intellect or being dumb but rather not all rec players are truly athletic. Do uncoordinated folks feel uncoordinated and unathletic? Probably not otherwise we would not think we play just like fed and Nadal in our mind’s eye.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
The bent knee ready position is an athletic stance that exists in all sports; it applies to all sports - baseball, basketball, football, martial arts, tennis. Why don’t rec players do it? It has nothing to do with intellect or being dumb but rather not all rec players are truly athletic
I think the real reason is that playing tennis with bent knees for more than 5 minutes is not like walking in the park, it requires a lot of strength in your legs. And the only fitness training for legs that a rec player does is the walking around all their lives!
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
I think the real reason is that playing tennis with bent knees for more than 5 minutes is not like walking in the park, it requires a lot of strength in your legs. And the only fitness training for legs that a rec player does is the walking around all their lives!
That is another reason. However I have pointed out to hitting partners that their legs are too straight and their reply is often, “really? I didn’t realize that.” So it’s back to a lack of awareness. True athletes have the awareness to maintain the athletic stance.

Doing lots of lunges and deadlifts to strengthen the legs is highly recommended for sure!
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
their legs are too straight and their reply is often, “really? I didn’t realize that.” So it’s back to a lack of awareness.
That was the reason for this thread. When you said it had nothing to do with intellect or being dumb, I thought you put it down to pure physical athletism, now you put the awareness into equation which supports my point, I believe. That is, focusing on it will improve it, you will also realize that you were neglecting a big factor in tennis, leg strength and that you lack it.
 
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mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
That was the reason for this thread. When you said it has nothing to do with intellect or being dumb, I thought you put it down to pure physical athletism, now you put the awareness into equation which supports my point, I believe. That is, focusing on it will improve it, you will also realize that you were neglecting a big factor in tennis, leg strength and that you lack it.
Some people are born with more innate athleticism than others. They have more awareness and control of their body movements than those who aren’t athletically inclined.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Some people are born with more innate athleticism than others. They have more awareness and control of their body movements than those who aren’t athletically inclined.
Can we say that Andy Murray is not quite athletic because on his to do list written on a piece of paper in his bag during a match ( cameras caught it) there was 'bend your knees'? I myself heard him a few times during matches shout at himself ' stay low'.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Can we say that Andy Murray is not quite athletic because on his to do list written on a piece of paper in his bag during a match ( cameras caught it) there was 'bend your knees'? I myself heard him a few times during matches shout at himself ' stay low'.
No, the fact that he shouts at himself to stay low indicates he is very much self aware of what his body is doing. Rec players oftentimes have no idea what their body is doing. That’s the difference.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
No, the fact that he shouts at himself to stay low indicates he is very much self aware of what his body is doing. Rec players oftentimes have no idea what their body is doing. That’s the difference.
To me it only means even an athlete like Murray needs to keep reminding himself about this fundamental point and it's not purely about athleticism which should reflect to rec tennis.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
To me it only means even an athlete like Murray needs to keep reminding himself about this fundamental point and it's not purely about athleticism which should reflect to rec tennis.
Rec players think they are doing things they aren’t really doing. Example - I’ve hit with someone who has asked what am I doing wrong? When I mention you aren’t turning your shoulders to take the racquet back but simply taking the arm back, the reply is but I am turning my shoulders. When I physically turn the shoulders for him he still insists he’s already doing it. That’s lack of innate athleticism and awareness.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Rec players think they are doing things they aren’t really doing. Example - I’ve hit with someone who has asked what am I doing wrong? When I mention you aren’t turning your shoulders to take the racquet back but simply taking the arm back, the reply is but I am turning my shoulders. When I physically turn the shoulders for him he still insists he’s already doing it. That’s lack of innate athleticism and awareness.
So you mean you either have it or you don't? No hope? No point in working on it, trying to be more aware and that?:)
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
In a nutshell, what I'm saying is: unit turn is much easier when you play with bent knees but that requires leg strength and fitness and yes awareness. Whether you want to do it or not is up to you.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
So you mean you either have it or you don't? No hope? No point in working on it, trying to be more aware and that?:)
It’s not totally black and white. Some people are hopelessly unathletic. Others are naturally athletic. And there’s the folks in the middle who can improve their athleticism. Repetition and hard work accounts for a lot.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
In a nutshell, what I'm saying is: unit turn is much easier when you play with bent knees but that requires leg strength and fitness and yes awareness. Whether you want to do it or not is up to you.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
In a nutshell, what I'm saying is: unit turn is much easier when you play with bent knees but that requires leg strength and fitness and yes awareness. Whether you want to do it or not is up to you.
If you are asking should you work hard at building up leg strength to keep your legs bent when playing tennis, the answer is yes, absolutely!!! :)
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I think I might have found the culprit. By the way the term unit turn may need to be replaced with unit coil. If you hit in neutral or closed stance you already have a unit turn, right? Sort of. But we know this doesn't count as you didn't store any energy like a spring.
yep, but some seem to want to recycle the old traditional terms to the modern way things are done now. Imo that is confusing, but if that is their preference....
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
If you are asking should you work hard at building up leg strength to keep your legs bent when playing tennis, the answer is yes, absolutely!!! :)
and I'm also asking you to please try a unit turn with knees relatively straight vs quite bent and see how that feels. You might already be doing it right anyway but just to see the difference and feedback for those who don't do it right.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
and I'm also asking you to please try a unit turn with knees relatively straight and quite bent and see how that feels. You might already be doing it right anyway but just to see the difference and feedback for those who don't do it right.
Doing it with legs straight vs knees bent in athletic stance results in less power and spin.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Doing it with legs straight vs knees bent in athletic stance results in less power and spin.
True. There is obviously also the factor of better leg drive with knees bent. What about the ease and completeness of shoulder turn with bent knees? That is my main point.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
So you mean you either have it or you don't? No hope? No point in working on it, trying to be more aware and that?:)
It’s just like everything else in life. For example there were some kids at school who where just naturally gifted at math. There would always be this one kid who didn’t require much instruction and he/she got it while another kid just couldn’t get it regardless of how the teacher tried to explain. Then there’s the rest of the kids between the two extremes. Some of them got very proficient after doing lots of exercises. Others weren’t quite as proficient even after doing all of the homework assignments. Same idea applies to sports.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
True. There is obviously also the factor of better leg drive with knees bent. What about the ease and completeness of shoulder turn with bent knees? That is my main point.
You can execute a full shoulder turn without bending the knees but locking out your knees will limit the amount of rotation in the hips.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Because my response was only to that part of your post. That is, I don't think you can execute a full shoulder turn without bending the knees.
The torso turn is made up of links in the spine. The upper back is responsible for the shoulders while the lower back is responsible for the hips and legs. So you can do fully turn your shoulders without bending the knees but you won’t achieve a full torso turn.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
The torso turn is made up of links in the spine. The upper back is responsible for the shoulders while the lower back is responsible for the hips and legs. So you can do fully turn your shoulders without bending the knees but you won’t achieve a full torso turn.
Agreed. But you seem to dismiss the main point of this thread: bend knees for better/easier/more complete unit turn. Simple as that. Do you agree with this claim or not?
 
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mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
...So you can do fully turn your shoulders without bending the knees but you won’t achieve a full torso turn.

Agreed. But you seem to dismiss the main point of this thread: bend knees for better/easier/more complete unit turn. Simple as that. Do you agree with this claim or not?
I believe I already answered your question in the quoted section in bold.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
If you didn’t have any or very little bend in your knees, how are you supposed to jump and gear up the swing?

Too obvious? By unit turn of the shoulders and hand...

It’s really funny to see beginners/intermediate rec players on a lesson, where the coach show the turn away your shoulders. Everybody nods and then turn their shoulders and copy only the shoulder part complaining lacking flexibility - legs straight and hips stationary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I think Dimitrov is a great example of playing with bent knees hence perfect torso rotation on every single shot.
Maybe it's not a coincidence he is also one of the best at forehand flip.

 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Second guessing the topic.

Could the culprit be, that recs quite often hit the ball with hand only or if not only, at least beyond whats required for consitent ball striking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Second guessing the topic.

Could the culprit be, that recs quite often hit the ball with hand only or if not only, at least beyond whats required for consitent ball striking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The problem is like many other issues, doing things the wrong way right from the first day you start playing tennis. Then good luck fixing it. It's all coaches' fault! At least in my case. Oh well he is an adult learner, so what if he doesnt do everything properly, why should I care/bother?
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
The problem is like many other issues, doing things the wrong way right from the first day you start playing tennis. Then good luck fixing it. It's all coaches' fault! At least in my case. Oh well he is an adult learner, so what if he doesnt do everything properly, why should I care/bother?
Get another coach. Tell him you want him to undo all the years of bad habits and want to rebuild the strokes the right way from the ground up. And then do what he instructs and give it some time to stick.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
I think the real reason is that playing tennis with bent knees for more than 5 minutes is not like walking in the park, it requires a lot of strength in your legs. And the only fitness training for legs that a rec player does is the walking around all their lives!

It's lack of awareness and training. In fact, it requires less power from weaker muscles and enables engamgemt of core and hips.
It's whoever is able to maintain the athletic position longer is in control of the rally because he is able to transfer more onto the ball.
There is a lot of research that shows benefits of athletic posture.
It reduces the likelihood of injury. Athletic posture can engage core muscles. Even if the core is strong, unless we position oursleves for peak performance, the wrong muscles will do the work and we get tired sooner and injured more often.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
It's lack of awareness and training. In fact, it requires less power from weaker muscles and enables engamgemt of core and hips.
It's whoever is able to maintain the athletic position longer is in control of the rally because he is able to transfer more onto the ball.
There is a lot of research that shows benefits of athletic posture.
It reduces the likelihood of injury. Athletic posture can engage core muscles. Even if the core is strong, unless we position oursleves for peak performance, the wrong muscles will do the work and we get tired sooner and injured more often.

Very good points now I just need to follow your advice.
 

NuBas

Legend
Quite the love fest between Curious and Mad dog. I think if you really know the throwing motion from the serve, its not only arm but whole body, legs and shoulder rotation to essentially throw your arm. If you have an understanding of the throwing motion from your shoulders then you can make optimal use of the unit turn, its basically same 'throwing' motion and you cannot throw your upper body/shoulder rotation without turning which utilizes your core and don't think you need any more core strength than what you have now cause its just basically a turn and your core needs to be flexible. Next you need to make use of your largest muscles, your legs to assist the core for rotation.

So the athletic stance in tennis can be found in other sports but what makes it different is our movement is more side to side instead of forward backward. Its awkward plus having to coordinate everything else with the racquet, so which is why rec players take a long time to learn and feel its tiring but its really not, they are just not used to it. Yeah you need strong tennis legs but that comes with playing tennis. I think the best way to describe footwork in tennis is - you hit with your legs.

I think Denis Shapovalov is a good player to watch since all his strokes are like throwing motions. Another big thing to help playing tennis with the entire body, believe it or not is not to think about the racquet, just think brush over net to the other side.

Bending knees slightly is fine for rally but why more knee bend is important is because it allows you to move faster because you are in a more loaded position to spring up. Also another reason is to get to low balls.

Strokes start @ 3:00
 
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