Why Karlovic and Isner serve are a better server than Sampras

Is Isner and Karlovic a superior server than Sampras ?

  • Total voters
    124
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Why Karlovic and Isner serve are a better than Sampras

For those you who argue that most tournaments Sampras went deeper round than Karlovic/Isner is a reason why Sampras had less stellar numbers, but as mentioned before, Sampras has a superior game to back up his serve, so that cancel out. Not to mention the court conditions favors the servers in the 90s. I mean anyone watches Karlovic would know his backhand is almost non-existent, worst movement on the tour, weak returner, defense and baseline game are poor. You can't expect a his caliber to make deeper round. His great serve alone is the reason he's still playing on the pro tour.

However, even when removes all the serve stats from the deeper rounds and only count for the earlier rounds(say 128, 64, 32) at all the slams, and accept today's unfavorable conditions, Karlovic and Isner are still more impressive.


Sampras
R128
1st serve percentage:61%
Ace rate:13.3%
1st serve won:79.8%
2nd serve won:55.1%

R64
1st serve percentage:60.4%
Ace rate:12.6%
1st serve won %:76.3%
2nd serve won:55.6%

R32
1st serve percentage:63.2%
Ace rate:16.3%
1st serve won:80.4%
2nd serve won:55.5%


Karlovic
R128
1st serve percentage:65.3%
Ace rate:22.0%
1st serve won:82%
2nd serve won:50.6%

R64
1st serve percentage:66.5%
Ace rate:21.5%
1st serve won:81.2%
2nd serve won:50.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:67%
Ace rate:23.2%
1st serve won:82.4%
2nd serve won:52.6%


Isner
R128
1st serve percentage:69%
Ace rate:19.4%
1st serve won:79.7%
2nd serve won:57%

R64
1st serve percentage:69.8%
Ace rate:19.5%
1st serve won:77.6%
2nd serve won:58.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:70.6%
Ace rate:18.9%
1st serve won:75.9%
2nd serve won:53.2%


At their prime, I would pick Karlovic 1st serve. For both 1st and 2nd serve combined, I pick Isner.
 
Last edited:
Of course karl/isner will serve more aces/unreturnables. They can hit down on the ball and flat and are a good 8 inches taller.
 
On behalf of 90's clay :

90's era had great depth. It was not a 32 seed draw like today where you only face challenger players for the first 3 rounds.
 
Sampras still has a most consistent 2nd serve than Ivo and wins more 1st serves than Isner which is really something considering that they are almost a metre taller. Therefore Sampras is the overall better server who doesn't just rely on hitting aces.
 
The height that makes their serves so great hinders the rest of their game.

So while they may have the superior standalone shot, Sampras' serve as part of the entire tennis package is superior.
 
Not to mention Pete Sampras is known for playing his way into tournaments and finding his best form towards the later end of the tournament, much like Nadal.


Isner and Karlovic are known for not being around for the 2nd half of the tournament. They're just guys you dont want in your section of the draw, in the early rounds
 
HipRotation said:
Sampras still has a most consistent 2nd serve than Ivo and wins more 1st serves than Isner which is really something considering that they are almost a metre taller. Therefore Sampras is the overall better server who doesn't just rely on hitting aces.
Click to expand...

I have no words, i discussed this topic in othe section in that best servers thread, Pete was great server in his era, but he wasn´t even best in his generation and Ivo and John are in totally different league comparing to Pete, stats if Pete has higher % points won on 1st serve it just means that he is better from the ground+ volleys - which honestly he clearly is - was, but Isner´s 1st serve is better + % difference there is also pretty high, with John having highest FS% from all big servers ever, so who cares that Pete in his career won let´s say 80.5% of 1st serves and John 78.7% - this is just example - correct numbers are easy to check on ATP website- but it should be similar - so who cares there is little % difference when John has overall 10-15% higher FS% in his matches + how i said Pete was better outside of serve... so pls don´t write stuff like Pete is better server than Ivo or John, because he isn´t and if you just look at ATP webiste STATS you can clearly see that all 3 guys having similar numbers on 1st serve, service games won and so on, while 1 guy had 14 slams and other 2 guys never even came close to win a slam - so the difference is clearly in serving department while their numbers are similar with big gap in other aspects of their games and talent
 
HipRotation said:
Sampras still has a most consistent 2nd serve than Ivo and wins more 1st serves than Isner which is really something considering that they are almost a metre taller. Therefore Sampras is the overall better server who doesn't just rely on hitting aces.
Click to expand...

I agree that Sampras 2nd serve is better but Karlovic 1st serve is better. However with Ivo 65.3%, the opponent have to face his 1st serve most of the time, so the 1st serve has more implications on the match.

Sampras is slightly higher than Isner in 1st % won, but Isner's 1st % is 69 to Sampras 61. Isner is better since almost 3 of out 4 serve 1st serve are in! Isner 2nd serve is better mainly because of the wicked kick serve.https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qB-D9Sv7kC0#t=10


And this doesn't taking into account that Sampras is much better at the net and ground game.
 
Last edited:
In the aims of fairness - we always hear about how the slowing of courts has changed today's tennis and made it more consistency, grinder, fitness etc focussed.

In Sampras's era courts were faster - especially at two of the majors - and he played a disproportionate amount of his matches on the faster courts within each season (i.e. off clay) compared to today's top players.

So, using the same logic used daily here it is only fair to point out that the effectiveness of his serve was significantly aided by the conditions. His ace/unreturned serve numbers are probably inflated by 10 or 15%, especially his second serve.

(in case you're ready to jump on this with "but poly strings" then, yes, that is absolutely valid - but it does not discount the point above).
 
TMF said:
For those you who argue that most tournaments Sampras went deeper round than Karlovic/Isner is a reason why Sampras had less stellar numbers, but as mentioned before, Sampras has a superior game to back up his serve, so that cancel out. Not to mention the court conditions favors the servers in the 90s. I mean anyone watches Karlovic would know his backhand is almost non-existent, worst movement on the tour, weak returner, defense and baseline game are poor. You can't expect a his caliber to make deeper round. His great serve alone is the reason he's still playing on the pro tour.

However, even when removes all the serve stats from the deeper rounds and only count for the earlier rounds(say 128, 64, 32) at all the slams, and accept today's unfavorable conditions, Karlovic and Isner are still more impressive.


Sampras
R128
1st serve percentage:61%
Ace rate:13.3%
1st serve won:79.8%
2nd serve won:55.1%

R64
1st serve percentage:60.4%
Ace rate:12.6%
1st serve won %:76.3%
2nd serve won:55.6%

R32
1st serve percentage:63.2%
Ace rate:16.3%
1st serve won:80.4%
2nd serve won:55.5%


Karlovic
R128
1st serve percentage:65.3%
Ace rate:22.0%
1st serve won:82%
2nd serve won:50.6%

R64
1st serve percentage:66.5%
Ace rate:21.5%
1st serve won:81.2%
2nd serve won:50.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:67%
Ace rate:23.2%
1st serve won:82.4%
2nd serve won:52.6%


Isner
R128
1st serve percentage:69%
Ace rate:19.4%
1st serve won:79.7%
2nd serve won:57%

R64
1st serve percentage:69.8%
Ace rate:19.5%
1st serve won:77.6%
2nd serve won:58.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:70.6%
Ace rate:18.9%
1st serve won:75.9%
2nd serve won:53.2%


At their prime, I would pick Karlovic 1st serve. For both 1st and 2nd serve combined, I pick Isner.
Click to expand...

I know you love your statistics but this is navel-gazing of the highest order.
 
TMF said:
For those you who argue that most tournaments Sampras went deeper round than Karlovic/Isner is a reason why Sampras had less stellar numbers, but as mentioned before, Sampras has a superior game to back up his serve, so that cancel out. Not to mention the court conditions favors the servers in the 90s. I mean anyone watches Karlovic would know his backhand is almost non-existent, worst movement on the tour, weak returner, defense and baseline game are poor. You can't expect a his caliber to make deeper round. His great serve alone is the reason he's still playing on the pro tour.

However, even when removes all the serve stats from the deeper rounds and only count for the earlier rounds(say 128, 64, 32) at all the slams, and accept today's unfavorable conditions, Karlovic and Isner are still more impressive.


Sampras
R128
1st serve percentage:61%
Ace rate:13.3%
1st serve won:79.8%
2nd serve won:55.1%

R64
1st serve percentage:60.4%
Ace rate:12.6%
1st serve won %:76.3%
2nd serve won:55.6%

R32
1st serve percentage:63.2%
Ace rate:16.3%
1st serve won:80.4%
2nd serve won:55.5%


Karlovic
R128
1st serve percentage:65.3%
Ace rate:22.0%
1st serve won:82%
2nd serve won:50.6%

R64
1st serve percentage:66.5%
Ace rate:21.5%
1st serve won:81.2%
2nd serve won:50.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:67%
Ace rate:23.2%
1st serve won:82.4%
2nd serve won:52.6%


Isner
R128
1st serve percentage:69%
Ace rate:19.4%
1st serve won:79.7%
2nd serve won:57%

R64
1st serve percentage:69.8%
Ace rate:19.5%
1st serve won:77.6%
2nd serve won:58.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:70.6%
Ace rate:18.9%
1st serve won:75.9%
2nd serve won:53.2%


At their prime, I would pick Karlovic 1st serve. For both 1st and 2nd serve combined, I pick Isner.
Click to expand...

Couldn't think of a better topic to put up a thread?? ... Idiotic.

And in re to the highlighted paragraph ... So?? Either player is never gonna get anywhere near Sampras' accomplishments.
 
No hate but you have to be a bit delusional to believe Sampras being a superior server OR you belong to the people that believe in rating a serve in relation to height like "Yeah Karlovics serve is great but he just can do it because he is so tall" - which doesn't make any sense at all if we are talking about the best serve.
 
Sampras:
- better backhand
- better forehand
- better volley
- better movement

and still Karlovic wins more service games (%) than him...so answer is obvious, Karlovic serves way better.
 
TMF said:
I agree that Sampras 2nd serve is better but Karlovic 1st serve is better. However with Ivo 65.3%, the opponent have to face his 1st serve most of the time, so the 1st serve has more implications on the match.

Sampras is slightly higher than Isner in 1st % won, but Isner's 1st % is 69 to Sampras 61. Isner is better since almost 3 of out 4 serve 1st serve are in! Isner 2nd serve is better mainly because of the wicked kick serve.https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qB-D9Sv7kC0#t=10


And this doesn't taking into account that Sampras is much better at the net and ground game.
Click to expand...

Not even sure if this is true. It might be. But the opponent knows he/she just has to get into the point off the Karlovic second serve and they will likely win it. So if Karlovic doesn't win the point outright with the second serve, he will lose a lot of those points. Sampras meanwhile can win a lot of second serve points if the rally starts off in his favor, or even neutral.

I will say that Sampras went for and made a lot of big second serves in pressure situations, which is why his 2nd has the reputation it does. It was a clutch weapon on the biggest stages. But to me that's not directly related to the serve itself.
 
tipsa...don'tlikehim! said:
Sampras:
- better backhand
- better forehand
- better volley
- better movement

and still Karlovic wins more service games (%) than him...so answer is obvious, Karlovic serves way better.
Click to expand...

You have to take into consideration Karlovic does not get the opportunity to play top players one round after another in the latter stages, his stats will stay high as a result. Well he doesn't get the opportunity because he loses early on in big tournaments.

I saw Karlovic play Max Myrni in 2003 Wimbledon on the old court 13, I was initially in the stand behind the returner. Karlovic's serve was so big we were all ducking for cover on quite a few occasions!

I've seen Goran, Pete, Krajicek, Roddick, Rusedski, Phillippoussis, Becker, Lopez, Tsonga,Taylor Dent, Wayne Arthurs all play live. Karlovic serve is the biggest!
 
Laurie said:
You have to take into consideration Karlovic does not get the opportunity to play top players one round after another in the latter stages, his stats will stay high as a result. Well he doesn't get the opportunity because he loses early on in big tournaments.

I saw Karlovic play Max Myrni in 2003 Wimbledon on the old court 13, I was initially in the stand behind the returner. Karlovic's serve was so big we were all ducking for cover on quite a few occasions!

I've seen Goran, Pete, Krajicek, Roddick, Rusedski, Phillippoussis, Becker, Lopez, Tsonga,Taylor Dent, Wayne Arthurs all play live. Karlovic serve is the biggest!
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Karlovic and Isner seldom make it very deep into the tournament. Their stats are made up of numbers against far fewer top players and a lot of lower-ranked and mediocre players.

We see quite often a player who makes it to the SF of a slam without losing a single set or even without getting his serve broken but lose a bunch in the SF and finals.

These things have to be taken into account.
 
ARKustom93 said:
Couldn't think of a better topic to put up a thread?? ... Idiotic.

And in re to the highlighted paragraph ... So?? Either player is never gonna get anywhere near Sampras' accomplishments.
Click to expand...

So?? this thread isn't comparing accomplishments. It would've helped if you had asked nicely why this thread was necessary, instead of ripping into TMF. You could've chosen to skip the thread - the title is very clear. Instead, you decide to post in it berating the thread and the OP.
 
scotus said:
Exactly.

Karlovic and Isner seldom make it very deep into the tournament. Their stats are made up of numbers against far fewer top players and a lot of lower-ranked and mediocre players.

We see quite often a player who makes it to the SF of a slam without losing a single set or even without getting his serve broken but lose a bunch in the SF and finals.

These have to be taken into account.
Click to expand...

Ahem.. hence the stats just for the 1st 3 rounds in this thread...
 
TMF said:
For those you who argue that most tournaments Sampras went deeper round than Karlovic/Isner is a reason why Sampras had less stellar numbers, but as mentioned before, Sampras has a superior game to back up his serve, so that cancel out. Not to mention the court conditions favors the servers in the 90s. I mean anyone watches Karlovic would know his backhand is almost non-existent, worst movement on the tour, weak returner, defense and baseline game are poor. You can't expect a his caliber to make deeper round. His great serve alone is the reason he's still playing on the pro tour.

However, even when removes all the serve stats from the deeper rounds and only count for the earlier rounds(say 128, 64, 32) at all the slams, and accept today's unfavorable conditions, Karlovic and Isner are still more impressive.


Sampras
R128
1st serve percentage:61%
Ace rate:13.3%
1st serve won:79.8%
2nd serve won:55.1%

R64
1st serve percentage:60.4%
Ace rate:12.6%
1st serve won %:76.3%
2nd serve won:55.6%

R32
1st serve percentage:63.2%
Ace rate:16.3%
1st serve won:80.4%
2nd serve won:55.5%


Karlovic
R128
1st serve percentage:65.3%
Ace rate:22.0%
1st serve won:82%
2nd serve won:50.6%

R64
1st serve percentage:66.5%
Ace rate:21.5%
1st serve won:81.2%
2nd serve won:50.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:67%
Ace rate:23.2%
1st serve won:82.4%
2nd serve won:52.6%


Isner
R128
1st serve percentage:69%
Ace rate:19.4%
1st serve won:79.7%
2nd serve won:57%

R64
1st serve percentage:69.8%
Ace rate:19.5%
1st serve won:77.6%
2nd serve won:58.8%

R32
1st serve percentage:70.6%
Ace rate:18.9%
1st serve won:75.9%
2nd serve won:53.2%


At their prime, I would pick Karlovic 1st serve. For both 1st and 2nd serve combined, I pick Isner.
Click to expand...

Thanks TMF! Confirms what I always knew - Karlovic and Isner are better servers than Sampras.

Could you also post stats for % points won on serve, and also exclude clay?
 
What people sometimes forget is that Sampras often used to sleepwalk through the first rounds of tournaments while Ivo/Isner are in a dogfight from the first game of the first match.

And by the way, Ivanisevic was better than all of them :)
 
Give me Pete any day of the week because of what he could in the clutch on the 2nd serve.

R32? THose two MUGS can even make it that far? ROFLMAO

How about Round of 8? Oh thats right.. Neither could get there. Why must an all time great like Pete be compared to these two nobodies?
 
90's Clay said:
Give me Pete any day of the week because of what he could in the clutch on the 2nd serve.

R32? THose two MUGS can even make it that far? ROFLMAO

How about Round of 8? Oh thats right.. Neither could get there. Why must an all time great like Pete be compared to these two nobodies?
Click to expand...

Your rant is as pointless as me saying " how about round of 2? That's right, Pete could never get there at all slams. Why must an all time great like Fed be compared to a nobody on one surface?"
 
90's Clay said:
Give me Pete any day of the week because of what he could in the clutch on the 2nd serve.

R32? THose two MUGS can even make it that far? ROFLMAO

How about Round of 8? Oh thats right.. Neither could get there. Why must an all time great like Pete be compared to these two nobodies?
Click to expand...

In the 90's, it is a fair possibility for Isner and Karlovic to win majors or at least make deep runs.

We know Malivai Washington, Cedric Pioline, Todd Martin, Carlos Moya, Kafelnikov, Costa were the 'studs' of 90's.
 
Sampras did not serve as big as Karlovic and Isner but his serve was more efficient and therefore better. At one point, Sampras won 96 consecutive service games at Wimbledon. In the Wimbledon finals he appeared in, he won 116 out of 118 service games against such notable returners as Agassi. Moreover, Sampras serve shined under pressure. This is the true test of a serve. How does it perform under pressure? Karlovic and Isner have never even played under the kind of stage Sampras has and thus are not even worthy of being in this discussion.
 
fed_rulz said:
Thanks TMF! Confirms what I always knew - Karlovic and Isner are better servers than Sampras.

Could you also post stats for % points won on serve, and also exclude clay?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there's no way of getting the % points won on serve from tennis abstract website, and ATPWorldTour site doesn't break down to individual rounds.

However there's a way of determine their % points won on serve(1st and 2nd combined) with the given data from tennis abstract.

Using Sampras round 128 serve stats:
1st serve %: 61
1st serve % won: 79.8
2nd serve %: 39
2nd serve % won:55.10

1st serve conversion rate = (61 x 79.8)/100 = 48.678
2nd serve conversion rate = (39 x 55.10)/100 = 21.489
% won on serve = 48.678 + 21.489 = 70.167%

We do the same calculation for all the early rounds and here are their numbers:

Sampras
R128
1st serve percentage:61%
Ace rate:13.3%
1st serve won:79.8%
2nd serve won:55.1%
% won on serve:70.17%

R64
1st serve percentage:60.4%
Ace rate:12.6%
1st serve won %:76.3%
2nd serve won:55.6%
% won on serve:68.10%

R32
1st serve percentage:63.2%
Ace rate:16.3%
1st serve won:80.4%
2nd serve won:55.5%
% won on serve:71.24%

Karlovic
R128
1st serve percentage:65.3%
Ace rate:22.0%
1st serve won:82%
2nd serve won:50.6%
% won on serve:71.10%

R64
1st serve percentage:66.5%
Ace rate:21.5%
1st serve won:81.2%
2nd serve won:50.8%
% won on serve:71.02%

R32
1st serve percentage:67%
Ace rate:23.2%
1st serve won:82.4%
2nd serve won:52.6%
% won on serve:72.57%


Isner
R128
1st serve percentage:69%
Ace rate:19.4%
1st serve won:79.7%
2nd serve won:57%
% won on serve:72.66%

R64
1st serve percentage:69.8%
Ace rate:19.5%
1st serve won:77.6%
2nd serve won:58.8%
% won on serve:71.92%

R32
1st serve percentage:70.6%
Ace rate:18.9%
1st serve won:75.9%
2nd serve won:53.2%
% won on serve:69.23%
 
TMF said:
Unfortunately there's no way of getting the % points won on serve from tennis abstract website, and ATPWorldTour site doesn't break down to individual rounds.

However there's a way of determine their % points won on serve(1st and 2nd combined) with the given data from tennis abstract.

Using Sampras round 128 serve stats:
1st serve %: 61
1st serve % won: 79.8
2nd serve %: 39
2nd serve % won:55.10

1st serve conversion rate = (61 x 79.8)/100 = 48.678
2nd serve conversion rate = (39 x 55.10)/100 = 21.489
% won on serve = 48.678 + 21.489 = 70.167%

We do the same calculation for all the early rounds and here are their numbers:

Sampras
R128
1st serve percentage:61%
Ace rate:13.3%
1st serve won:79.8%
2nd serve won:55.1%
% won on serve:70.17%

R64
1st serve percentage:60.4%
Ace rate:12.6%
1st serve won %:76.3%
2nd serve won:55.6%
% won on serve:68.10%

R32
1st serve percentage:63.2%
Ace rate:16.3%
1st serve won:80.4%
2nd serve won:55.5%
% won on serve:71.24%

Karlovic
R128
1st serve percentage:65.3%
Ace rate:22.0%
1st serve won:82%
2nd serve won:50.6%
% won on serve:71.10%

R64
1st serve percentage:66.5%
Ace rate:21.5%
1st serve won:81.2%
2nd serve won:50.8%
% won on serve:71.02%

R32
1st serve percentage:67%
Ace rate:23.2%
1st serve won:82.4%
2nd serve won:52.6%
% won on serve:72.57%


Isner
R128
1st serve percentage:69%
Ace rate:19.4%
1st serve won:79.7%
2nd serve won:57%
% won on serve:72.66%

R64
1st serve percentage:69.8%
Ace rate:19.5%
1st serve won:77.6%
2nd serve won:58.8%
% won on serve:71.92%

R32
1st serve percentage:70.6%
Ace rate:18.9%
1st serve won:75.9%
2nd serve won:53.2%
% won on serve:69.23%
Click to expand...

Not to diminish all the work you put into this, but in order to more accurately compare serve effectiveness, I believe we would need to look at points won within a total of 5 shots or less. Beyond that rally length, the importance of the serve as a point-deciding factor gradually decreases.

As an example, pts-won-at-net percentage is virtually useless in determining whether player A is a competent S&Ver, because it doesn't tell me how many pts were won by S&V, chip 'n charge, or rally approaches etc.

Back to your initial point, the breakdown I suggested would have resulted in much more convincing 'proof' ...
 
After my vote it´s 17vs18_D i can´t people here are what Sampras ***** or anti Ivo anti John haters? question was not if Ivo and John are better player, but better serves so how the hell votes are basically 50/50 i don´t get you people, Sampras wasn´t even best in his generation with Goran being easily better server - which Pete said multiple times that Goran is best server and Goran didn´t have FS% and trajectory John and Ivo now have, so how the hell possibly can someone explain Pete being better server than John/Ivo?
 
SERVICE GAMES WON in CAREER on HC

1.Karlovic 91%
5.Isner 90%
6.Sampras 90%

I choose HC as biggest surface with most matches and being ,,neutral,, grass to fast, clay to many rallies

So Sampras being better in every aspect of their games besides serve how the hell his numbers are similar to Ivo - John? even lower

If Pete was better server than his numbers should go up to 95-97% if Ivo and John are around 90... so really think about this 3 guys having similar number, but 1 of them is clearly better player in everything outside of serve... which logically means that those other 2 inferior players are clearly better servers

And now people saying Pete played tougher opponents. yes he did in F-SF, but in 1st few rounds thanks to his ranking he played ,,nobodies,, while Ivo can play for example 5x tournaments in row top 20 player in R1 with his ranking so such theory is irrelevant

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=4&s=3&y=0
 
Last edited:
ARKustom93 said:
Not to diminish all the work you put into this, but in order to more accurately compare serve effectiveness, I believe we would need to look at points won within a total of 5 shots or less. Beyond that rally length, the importance of the serve as a point-deciding factor gradually decreases.

As an example, pts-won-at-net percentage is virtually useless in determining whether player A is a competent S&Ver, because it doesn't tell me how many pts were won by S&V, chip 'n charge, or rally approaches etc.

Back to your initial point, the breakdown I suggested would have resulted in much more convincing 'proof' ...
Click to expand...

That would takes a lot of work and I don't even believe there are stats out there available.

But if we were to able to separate the points won between 5-shot or less and extensive rally, that numbers would be in favors of Isner and Ivo. Why? Because with Pete having a better backup game, he has more points won on extensive rally, especially a lot more than Ivo, while Ivo and Isner have more points won on 5-shot or less. The latter is more important because the shorter the point, the more factor behind the serve quality.
 
Romismak said:
SERVICE GAMES WON in CAREER on HC

1.Karlovic 91%
5.Isner 90%
6.Sampras 90%

I choose HC as biggest surface with most matches and being ,,neutral,, grass to fast, clay to many rallies

So Sampras being better in every aspect of their games besides serve how the hell his numbers are similar to Ivo - John? even lower

If Pete was better server than his numbers should go up to 95-97% if Ivo and John are around 90... so really think about this 3 guys having similar number, but 1 of them is clearly better player in everything outside of serve... which logically means that those other 2 inferior players are clearly better servers

And now people saying Pete played tougher opponents. yes he did in F-SF, but in 1st few rounds thanks to his ranking he played ,,nobodies,, while Ivo can play for example 5x tournaments in row top 20 player in R1 with his ranking so such theory is irrelevant

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=4&s=3&y=0
Click to expand...

Deeper round, tougher opponents also inflate Sampras stats which his fans don't want to share(or don't know). Ace rate for example. Agassi is tougher opponent, but he's one of the easiest player to ace. Deeper round, tougher opponents also means more game, more set play. Thus, more opportunity to rack up number of ace.
 
HipRotation said:
Sampras still has a most consistent 2nd serve than Ivo and wins more 1st serves than Isner which is really something considering that they are almost a metre taller. Therefore Sampras is the overall better server who doesn't just rely on hitting aces.
Click to expand...

and he was doing it with old racquet and strings...after switching he was serving bigger at the exos with Roger than the 2002 U.S. Open
 
Was this even a question? I thought it was plainly obvious with anyone possessing half a brain that Karlovic/Isner are beyond superior servers than Sampras. Sampras was luck he played in a weak era with no Federer or Nadal to deal with like Isner and Karlovic have to.
 
TMF said:
Deeper round, tougher opponents also inflate Sampras stats which his fans don't want to share(or don't know). Ace rate for example. Agassi is tougher opponent, but he's one of the easiest player to ace. Deeper round, tougher opponents also means more game, more set play. Thus, more opportunity to rack up number of ace.
Click to expand...

My point was that Sampras played tougher opponents in later stages, but thanks to his ranking - as top player his whole career he played lower ranked players in early rounds - so it somehow balanced itself ,whle guy like Ivo might end up playing high seed players in 3x tournaments in row and loosin r3x R1 matches playing them, so all this nonsense about Pete got tougher opponents is somehow balanced with fact that with his seeding he also played ,,easier,, guys in R1, R2 all the time, while especially Ivo might end up playing tough guys already in R1- because his ranking most of his career is outside top 20, top 30

about aces - i have ansered this in that other section, ace numbers are irrelevant, just like ace-per match , acer-per serve in play is only pure ace ratio or ace statistic we can use and in this category Pete is far far behind Ivo and John or Milos or Goran for example
 
here is another one for the useless information thread : Oranges dont taste like menure.

oh.... wrong thread... sorry, it was easy to confuse!
 
scotus said:
Exactly.

Karlovic and Isner seldom make it very deep into the tournament. Their stats are made up of numbers against far fewer top players and a lot of lower-ranked and mediocre players.

We see quite often a player who makes it to the SF of a slam without losing a single set or even without getting his serve broken but lose a bunch in the SF and finals.

These things have to be taken into account.
Click to expand...

Yep these things have to be taken into account, exactly like Sampras being WAY better in backhand, forehand, volley and movement has to be taken into account as well. (and him playing on faster surfaces)
 
tipsa...don'tlikehim! said:
By the way, Karlovic + Isner should not be in the same league, I don't like the poll. Karlovic's serve > Isner.
Click to expand...

THis is hard to call, but John has higher FS% + better 2nd serve, but anyway those 2 are best servers ever so i think they can be mentioned as comparing to someone else, the problem is with poll votes and people trying here to justify somehow Pete being better server than those 2.....
 
I'm sure this will bother a load of people but please don't get mad I'm only voicing some thoughts and it's fine if you disagree.

I think we should make a distinction between who's better at hitting aces and who's better at serving, or more we should consider the "ace shot" to be a type of serve like a slice or kick. I hope it's reasonable to assume that someone who serves well wins lots of matches. Even Nadal serves well because he serves out wide in a way that wins him points by forcing his opponents to return to his forehand instantly putting Nadal on the front foot, thus he wins the point with a good serve.

Surely it can be understood that serving in a way that makes the ball easy pickings at the net should be considered a great serve because no player would ever voluntarily return like that and I hope we can agree that Sampras was one of the best at that.

Ivo and Isner pretty much depend on aces and even for them it's not consistent, they have no option but to hit aces/unreturns or else they lose the point more times than not. Their serving doesn't allow them to make simple plays that more consistent servers would hit that wins them points such as a simple slow out wide to pull them out wide and then hit straight down the line. To say that Isner or Ivo don't have forehands is a huge disservice to them and to hit a winner off a good serve is well within the reach of any decent player.

Usually what Ivo or Isner fall down on is when a player will chip the ball back and make them play another shot which they don't want to do. The right thing to do would be to start using more variety of serve and make the player return to your advantage, Isner has his kick serve which at most times is unplayable to the point where you wonder why he doesn't do it all the time on his 1st, but apart from that both don't have any other good serve apart from their "ace shot". Ivo and Isner will try to S&V at times but rarely get the timing or speed right and end up having to scoop balls up instead of hit easy drive-volleys.

In closing I think a better statistical determination would be % of points in 5 shots or less but I doubt this would be possible so oh well.
 
HipRotation said:
I'm sure this will bother a load of people but please don't get mad I'm only voicing some thoughts and it's fine if you disagree.

I think we should make a distinction between who's better at hitting aces and who's better at serving, or more we should consider the "ace shot" to be a type of serve like a slice or kick. I hope it's reasonable to assume that someone who serves well wins lots of matches. Even Nadal serves well because he serves out wide in a way that wins him points by forcing his opponents to return to his forehand instantly putting Nadal on the front foot, thus he wins the point with a good serve.

Surely it can be understood that serving in a way that makes the ball easy pickings at the net should be considered a great serve because no player would ever voluntarily return like that and I hope we can agree that Sampras was one of the best at that.

Ivo and Isner pretty much depend on aces and even for them it's not consistent, they have no option but to hit aces/unreturns or else they lose the point more times than not. Their serving doesn't allow them to make simple plays that more consistent servers would hit that wins them points such as a simple slow out wide to pull them out wide and then hit straight down the line. To say that Isner or Ivo don't have forehands is a huge disservice to them and to hit a winner off a good serve is well within the reach of any decent player.

Usually what Ivo or Isner fall down on is when a player will chip the ball back and make them play another shot which they don't want to do. The right thing to do would be to start using more variety of serve and make the player return to your advantage, Isner has his kick serve which at most times is unplayable to the point where you wonder why he doesn't do it all the time on his 1st, but apart from that both don't have any other good serve apart from their "ace shot". Ivo and Isner will try to S&V at times but rarely get the timing or speed right and end up having to scoop balls up instead of hit easy drive-volleys.

In closing I think a better statistical determination would be % of points in 5 shots or less but I doubt this would be possible so oh well.
Click to expand...

I understand what you want to say, but you are wrong in ,,ace shot,, like kick or slice, because ace is not only big flat bomb, but also many times slice serve or even kick serve can be an ace.

ACE is not important, better term is FREE Point - or UNRETURNABLE serve - because if Murray is on the other side and not Lopez it Isner won´t hit 20 aces just 6 for example, but Murray touching that serve means it´snot ace, but still free point

Isner and Karlovic are best servers ever, because can win their service games quickly without needing other shots like FH, BH,

Ivo´s 1st serve is best weapon in tennis ever, trajectory, speed, placement, no wonder Ivo has highest ace ratio from all player per 1st serve IN

Isner has highest FS% from all big servers ever, which is critical in tie-breaks for example and also has probably best 2nd serve ever, his kick serve is insane
 
scotus said:
Exactly.

Karlovic and Isner seldom make it very deep into the tournament. Their stats are made up of numbers against far fewer top players and a lot of lower-ranked and mediocre players.

We see quite often a player who makes it to the SF of a slam without losing a single set or even without getting his serve broken but lose a bunch in the SF and finals.

These things have to be taken into account.
Click to expand...

Indeed

But we also have to take into account when we take the decision to enter a forum like this, we are entering a parallel universe where the nutty becomes the normal.

Thankfully for me at least, it's temporary.
 
Laurie said:
Indeed

But we also have to take into account when we take the decision to enter a forum like this, we are entering a parallel universe where the nutty becomes the normal.

Thankfully for me at least, it's temporary.
Click to expand...

is it too hard to acknowledge that Karlovic, if the whole tour was allowed to serve only underarm, would not be even top 500? His movement is terrible, his backhand, lol
his forehand is good but far from Sampras's quality

so yeah Karlovic has been ranked 14 in the world, that says a lot about the quality of his serve
 
I think the whole problem here is deciding what we are talking about.

Players like Pete and Fed could/can be absolutely dominating with the service games. Both were/are incredibly successful with their percentage of service games won.

But winning service games is also about having excellent shots to back up the serves. So people like Fed and Pete did not need to serve as hard. Both were/are superb at hitting spots.

I think we have to say that Isner/Karlovic have more dangerous serves, considering that alone, because nothing else in their skills is better than above average.

Look at Isner for the year: 93% of service games won.

If you go back to a good year for Pete - I'm picking 1993 as an example - he was only at 90%.

To me that means Pete had to work a wee bit harder to hold serve. Not a huge amount, but a little bit. And yet all of us would agree that Pete was by far the superior player, with way more weapons to back up his serve.

Now, who has the best serve in terms of mechanics and efficiency? That's really a very different question. Karlovic and Isner have the serves they have because they are both giants. With the same mechanics they might be no more than above average if they were 6' 1".
 
Of course they have better serves than Sampras. How can anyone say otherwise?

The other parts of their game are absolutely woeful, but the fact that they have managed to hang amongst the top 20 or so players for so long, shows just how immense their serves are.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
Nadal has better first serve than Federer/Sampras! And Karlovic...
Replies
23
Views
3K
Alexrb
Alexrb
zill
  • Poll Poll
Who actually has the better serve: Karlovic or Isner?
Replies
9
Views
700
Sudacafan
Sudacafan
manny pacquiao P4P king
why do people think federer has a better serve than roddick???
2
Replies
71
Views
6K
BounceHitBounceHit
BounceHitBounceHit
W
Match Stats/Report - Larsson vs Sampras, Grand Slam Cup final, 1994
Replies
1
Views
719
Waspsting
W
Back
Top