So you want to discredit Federer with his weak titles but still want to prop up Djokovic for beating him? Got it...
Why Novak Djokovic is greater than Roger Federer at Wimbledon
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NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
According to Federer and many other analysts and former pros it was. I trust their expert opinion over that of the TTW layman.
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NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
Federer has GOAT consistency with the 12 finals but lost the peak to peak battle with Djokovic when he blew the Championship points on his own serve.
You can just say yes instead of beating around the bush.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
Weak titles doesn't exclude federer from being one of the GOATs. His sheer volume of numbers and longevity give him a seat at the top table.
Ultronians usually end the discussions with something like that, lets throw in a little cheap suppression technique lol.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
Yes, I am sure you know more about Federer's level than Federer himself. He is an amateur.
And he throws another one! Lol. Good night.
The Fedfather
Legend
Djokovic's 3 titles came from beating Federer, 1 of them he got just barely. No use double counting the finals Federer lost as an argument against his CLEAR lead on grass. Federer has 2 more W titles, 5 more W finals, and 10 Halle titles. His game is clearly better on grass. Period. If Roger handled pressure just a bit better, the gap would show the difference in level more accurately.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.” “I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.”
Would you rather people think you’re better than Federer at Wimbledon, or take 8 titles instead of 6? End of thread I think. No charge.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
Let's be honest, Federer is only ahead due to luck.
Age 34 - 7 titles for Federer, 6 for Djokovic with 2020 cancelled where he was a lock.
8th title won vs a pathetic, crying, blubbering Cilic aged 36.
Djokovic has 2 more years to reach 8.
I‘m not a Fedfan by any means but your argument is 1 sided. Fed has made 12 Wimbledon finals. Sampras, Djokovic and Becker made 7, Borg 6. That’s a huge difference. Fed also was 2 points from beating Nadal in 2008 final, and of course had the 2 mp’s on serve v Djoker 2 yrs ago when everyone thought he was past it. Just needed a smidge more luck and he’d have 10 Wimbledon titles. Djoker of course very lucky to win 2019, and imo that semi v Nadal in 2018 10-8 5th was very lucky, Nadal could have won in 4 sets had he not blown that 3rd set t/b. So it wouldn’t have taken much for Fed to be on 10 titles v 4 for Djoker. I suggest you be very happy with 8-6 as that looks really good for Djoker. Plus he seems to have good prospects for a 7th, and maybe more who knows.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
You make some good points.. I guess Djokovic did maximise his Wimbledon chances and Fed didn’t
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
For two main reasons
The big one, Djokovic is 3-0 against Federer in Wimbledon finals. Federer to Djokovic in Wimbledon finals = what Roddick was to Federer in Wimbledon finals. Even when Djokovic played a bad match by his standards he emerged victorious, just like what happened with Federer against Roddick in 2009. That should tell you enough. Djokovic turned Federer into a freaking Roddick and it can't get any more embarrassing than that.
The next big point, there is one Wimbledon tournament cancelled in the middle of Djokovic dominance. Djokovic was even bigger favorite last year that this year but CoFed 19 denied him the title. Now, let 2020 Wimbledon be played and one of those Wimbledons which were in the middle of Federer dominance cancelled and you get 7 titles for both Djokovic and Federer. So Federer fans should never forget this fact, the only reason Federer has more titles at the event is luck and nothing but luck.
Mum says we shouldn't talk to ourselves.
killerboss
Professional
Djokovic competition by titles = Nadal, Federer, Federer, Nadal, Federer, Berretini
Federer competition by titles = Roddick, Roddick, Roddick, Nadal, Nadal, Roddick, Djokovic, Cilic.
Close but i'd probably still give Federer the edge, given his 2 extra titles, his 2012 win and that Roddick was a good grass player in his own right. One more win for Djokovic though puts him in the advantage given his competition.
Federer competition by titles = Roddick, Roddick, Roddick, Nadal, Nadal, Roddick, Djokovic, Cilic.
Close but i'd probably still give Federer the edge, given his 2 extra titles, his 2012 win and that Roddick was a good grass player in his own right. One more win for Djokovic though puts him in the advantage given his competition.
Soul_Evisceration
Hall of Fame
Djokovic might currently have a better Resume than Federer.
However 6 Wimbledons, and 1 Eastbourne < < < 8 Wimbledons, 10 Halle and 1 Stuttgart.
Djokovic has got quite a bit of work to do before catching up to Federer in that Department IMO.
However 6 Wimbledons, and 1 Eastbourne < < < 8 Wimbledons, 10 Halle and 1 Stuttgart.
Djokovic has got quite a bit of work to do before catching up to Federer in that Department IMO.
Djokovic2015
Semi-Pro
At 8-6 to titles, the gap is still too wide and I give it to Fed.
If Djokovic wins Wimbledon again next year though, he would have won 4 Wimb titles consecutively in 18, 19, 21, 22, with 20 being cancelled right in the middle of his stretch of dominance. That would be a uniquely unlucky scenario beyond his control that has never played out against anyone else before and so being down 8-7 in titles, with a 3-0 h2h lead in finals would leave a compelling argument. If Djokovic can somehow get to 8 titles I think it would be pretty firmly in Djokovic's favor, but that is looking multiple years down the line so its too difficult to extrapolate.
If Djokovic wins Wimbledon again next year though, he would have won 4 Wimb titles consecutively in 18, 19, 21, 22, with 20 being cancelled right in the middle of his stretch of dominance. That would be a uniquely unlucky scenario beyond his control that has never played out against anyone else before and so being down 8-7 in titles, with a 3-0 h2h lead in finals would leave a compelling argument. If Djokovic can somehow get to 8 titles I think it would be pretty firmly in Djokovic's favor, but that is looking multiple years down the line so its too difficult to extrapolate.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
The 3-0 is pretty balanced by this point.
Yes Fed was near 33, 34 & 38 but he had ample chances in the two 5 setters losing 4-6 and 12-13 in the final set. I mean with 2019 specifically going 0-3 in tiebreaks and having double match point. Like you can't turn around and use the age argument all of a sudden because he freaking choked those matches.
Anyhow, gotta look at the draws. If we're just looking at QF-SF:
Federer
Schalken-Roddick-Phillippousiss
Hewitt-Grosjean-Roddick
Gonzalez-Hewitt-Roddick
Ancic-Bjorkman-Nadal
Ferrero-Gasquet-Nadal
Karlovic-Haas-Roddick
Youzhny-Djokovic-Murray
Raonic-Berdych-Cilic
Djokovic
Tomic-Tsonga-Nadal
Cilic-Dimitrov-Federer
Cilic-Gasquet-Federer
Nishikori-Nadal-Anderson
Goffin-Agut-Federer
Fucsovics-Shapovalov-Berrettini
With the bolded aquamarine being cross-overs. For Fed to have the upper hand outside of the 2 extra Slams, we need to look at the odd other opponents:
Grosjean, Schalken, Phillippousiss, Bjorkman, Youzhny, Raonic, Berdych, Karlovic, Haas, Ferrero, Ancic, Gonzalez
vs.
Tomic, Tsonga, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Anderson, Goffin, Agut, Fucsovics, Shapovalov, Berrettini
I would argue Fed's toughest roads were 04-06 and 2012, and none of those would I call anywhere near Edberg92 level of difficulty. In every one of those cases you still had 1 of those final 3 opponents being relatively easy and the toughest one being limited, like 06 with Nadal or 12 with Murray despite that being his prime-peak form. Novak on the flip side has 2011 & 2014 being at least equal to Fed's toughest runs of course Tomic is a punchline now for that particular tournament he was probably at his best but Tsonga and Nadal were both very high level for that time. I would still err towards 2014 given Cilic and Federer's form while Dimitrov wasn't exactly a gift match just ultimately not dangerous for defeat (kind of like Shapovalov now).
But historically, I'd still say Fed is above Novak with the 2 gap in titles and 3 additional finals on top of that. It's just too much but given Novak's age I do expect him to surpass Fed as the ultimate champion even if Fed maintains the presence being a 12 time finalist.
Yes Fed was near 33, 34 & 38 but he had ample chances in the two 5 setters losing 4-6 and 12-13 in the final set. I mean with 2019 specifically going 0-3 in tiebreaks and having double match point. Like you can't turn around and use the age argument all of a sudden because he freaking choked those matches.
Anyhow, gotta look at the draws. If we're just looking at QF-SF:
Federer
Schalken-Roddick-Phillippousiss
Hewitt-Grosjean-Roddick
Gonzalez-Hewitt-Roddick
Ancic-Bjorkman-Nadal
Ferrero-Gasquet-Nadal
Karlovic-Haas-Roddick
Youzhny-Djokovic-Murray
Raonic-Berdych-Cilic
Djokovic
Tomic-Tsonga-Nadal
Cilic-Dimitrov-Federer
Cilic-Gasquet-Federer
Nishikori-Nadal-Anderson
Goffin-Agut-Federer
Fucsovics-Shapovalov-Berrettini
With the bolded aquamarine being cross-overs. For Fed to have the upper hand outside of the 2 extra Slams, we need to look at the odd other opponents:
Grosjean, Schalken, Phillippousiss, Bjorkman, Youzhny, Raonic, Berdych, Karlovic, Haas, Ferrero, Ancic, Gonzalez
vs.
Tomic, Tsonga, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Anderson, Goffin, Agut, Fucsovics, Shapovalov, Berrettini
I would argue Fed's toughest roads were 04-06 and 2012, and none of those would I call anywhere near Edberg92 level of difficulty. In every one of those cases you still had 1 of those final 3 opponents being relatively easy and the toughest one being limited, like 06 with Nadal or 12 with Murray despite that being his prime-peak form. Novak on the flip side has 2011 & 2014 being at least equal to Fed's toughest runs of course Tomic is a punchline now for that particular tournament he was probably at his best but Tsonga and Nadal were both very high level for that time. I would still err towards 2014 given Cilic and Federer's form while Dimitrov wasn't exactly a gift match just ultimately not dangerous for defeat (kind of like Shapovalov now).
But historically, I'd still say Fed is above Novak with the 2 gap in titles and 3 additional finals on top of that. It's just too much but given Novak's age I do expect him to surpass Fed as the ultimate champion even if Fed maintains the presence being a 12 time finalist.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
BGod
G.O.A.T.
Of course it's situational. Fair or not, the fact Fed lost in finals and the way he lost gives much more credence than if Fed had beaten Novak two more times in earlier years. Take a look at USO for reference. There you have it 3-3 but when Fed beat Novak he did is quite easily I believe 3-3-4 sets and when Novak had 0 & 1 Slams. Novak then beat Fed when he had 16 & 17 Slams and twice with MPs down. Fed turns out as the choker with actual chances to close out matches, Novak on the other hand wasn't favoured or even equal betting outside of 2011 French and 2012 Wimbledon in Slam meetings lost unless I'm forgetting one. Fed could have really made a killing beating him in 2014-2015 and 2019 as the underdog but pissed himself.
Fed's growth in choking just didn't cover up his additional finals. It's one thing to make those appearances scoring upsets and losing just because you're too old and another getting easy draws to the final, having real chances at the title and blowing them, somewhat constantly. And it's pretty lucky Fed won that 09 final, 2012 he won a 3rd round tiebreak 8-6 on the verge of losing and in 07 he got a walkover in the 4th Round and a very tired Semifinal opponent. So it could be 6-5 for Novak too.
D
Deleted member 770948
Guest
Djokovic never beat prime Federer at Roland Garros, Wimbledon or US Open.
Federer beat prime Djokovic at Roland Garros (2011) and Wimbledon (2012).
Federer beat prime Djokovic at Roland Garros (2011) and Wimbledon (2012).
Kralingen
Bionic Poster
Djokovic was age 16-19 with WOAT stamina during Federer’s peak though lolDjokovic never beat prime Federer at Roland Garros, Wimbledon or US Open.
Federer beat prime Djokovic at Roland Garros (2011) and Wimbledon (2012).
is this trolling?
D
Deleted member 770948
Guest
Yes your post is trolling.
So where is the proof that Djokovic can beat prime Federer at Wimbledon?
Djokovic couldn't even beat Federer at 2012 Wimbledon, when Federer gave just glimpse of form, and Djokovic almost lost 2019 to a frail Federer (and it was after Nadal took Federer's best punches).
BGod
G.O.A.T.
2010 & 2011 USO were absolutely prime Fed bud.
D
Deleted member 770948
Guest
Not even close to Fedeer's prime, nut.
Its considered a choke actually, 2010 and 2011 USO.
There is nothing like being "insert"-how-many fifteens from beating anyone in tennis. You either beat them, or you don't. Those points are not a time left, they don't cover a distance. They don't come in by themselves. It's nothing like leading a 100-meter dash and tripping during the last few meters, it's also nothing like leading 2:0 in soccer and getting scored on twice in the last three minutes.
In tennis especially, if you do what you did there re-remembering stuff, it paints a completely false picture. Federer desperately grinded out a couple of tiebreaks Nadal was convincingly leading and should have put away, and it would have ended in three. In terms of authority in that match, he looked nowhere close to winning at any point.
To a large degree, yes. But one thing was really disappointing from Djokovic’s POV: The 2013 final.
I don’t want to take anything away from Murray and I’m happy for him that he got his Wimbledon title, but Djokovic seemed strangely out of it that day.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying he purposely gifted it to Murray right from the start. That would be an insult to Murray who was good enough to beat Djokovic on a good day, but in the end Djokovic looked a bit like expressing:
“Okay, the crowd doesn’t want another disappointment after last year and after all those decades, and I don’t want to be the villain anyway. So Andy, if you’re so close now, then take it in god’s name.”
There was no fire in him to turn it around, not the usual attitude we know from him.
wang07
Professional
ForehandRF
Legend
H2H> titles in the TTW universe, what else is new ? I'd be more surprised if that wasn't the case lol
BGod
G.O.A.T.
Finished #2 & #3, won both WTFs, 1 Masters each season, Slam in 2010 and 3 additional Masters finals, Slam Final and two Semis in 2011.
If you're arguing peak, then sure 05-07 but he was certainly in his prime by all historical metrics and given his success in 2012, 2014-2015 and 2017-2018. In tennis there is no legitimate way to argue a player is not in prime form 6-7 years from a 2 Slam season being younger and 3-4 years older past a 3 Slam season.
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
So what if Djokovic stays on the tour till hes 38/39 and loses a few Wimbledon finals by then?
Absolute nonsense to bring up Feds statistics against Djokovic in finals, when the guy was well out of his prime by then.
I say this as someone who doesnt like Federer particularly, but you cannot bring this up as a point when talking about Wimbledon.
The closest prime to prime match we got there, was 2012, and Federer handled Djokovic pretty easily.
I wonder what pre 2009 Federer wouldve done to Djokovic at Wimbledon.
Absolute nonsense to bring up Feds statistics against Djokovic in finals, when the guy was well out of his prime by then.
I say this as someone who doesnt like Federer particularly, but you cannot bring this up as a point when talking about Wimbledon.
The closest prime to prime match we got there, was 2012, and Federer handled Djokovic pretty easily.
I wonder what pre 2009 Federer wouldve done to Djokovic at Wimbledon.
Nadal_Django
Legend
Cancelling 2020 Wimbledon is up there with the 2022 AO banishment as probably two of the biggest knocks on the Djokovic's Slam tally in the recent times. Those two right there, are almost guaranteed, 100% Slam wins for Djokovic for sure. He could have been easily at 24-25 right now, but it is what it is, I guess.For two main reasons
The big one, Djokovic is 3-0 against Federer in Wimbledon finals. Federer to Djokovic in Wimbledon finals = what Roddick was to Federer in Wimbledon finals. Even when Djokovic played a bad match by his standards he emerged victorious, just like what happened with Federer against Roddick in 2009. That should tell you enough. Djokovic turned Federer into a freaking Roddick and it can't get any more embarrassing than that.
The next big point, there is one Wimbledon tournament cancelled in the middle of Djokovic dominance. Djokovic was even bigger favorite last year that this year but CoFed 19 denied him the title. Now, let 2020 Wimbledon be played and one of those Wimbledons which were in the middle of Federer dominance cancelled and you get 7 titles for both Djokovic and Federer. So Federer fans should never forget this fact, the only reason Federer has more titles at the event is luck and nothing but luck.
Besides the eye test, Fedfans have to prove that Federer was worse in the 10's than the 00's.
In all of '14-15, Federer lost one set, to Wawrinka at '14 SF, in reaching the finals. In '15, he was unbroken, and yielded 2 BP's in reaching the final.
I'll argue that, in competition with Djokovic and Nadal, he improved all facets of his game. Especially in the early 10's, he might have lost a little bit of athleticism, but improved technically all facets of his game. And mentally he improved, so hence his mastery of Nadal.
In all of '14-15, Federer lost one set, to Wawrinka at '14 SF, in reaching the finals. In '15, he was unbroken, and yielded 2 BP's in reaching the final.
I'll argue that, in competition with Djokovic and Nadal, he improved all facets of his game. Especially in the early 10's, he might have lost a little bit of athleticism, but improved technically all facets of his game. And mentally he improved, so hence his mastery of Nadal.
