Why people don't think Zverev is real number 2

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
is because he is not even top 3 contender for next 4 slams. Forget top 2.

AO - Djokovic is the AO GOAT and will be top favorite (Sinner fans have to relax), Sinner Alcaraz closer to him. Then after some gap there is Zverev.

RG - Alcaraz is reigning RG champ and Djokovic has won OG on it without losing a set. Even Sinner will be better threat here than Zverev. Then there is Ruud/Tsitsipas/Rune who are all level with Zverev. He is at best top 3 if not top 4 here.

Wimby - Forget about it. This is for best players in the world. That means Djokovic/Sinner/Alcaraz will be top 3. Along with them there is Meddy who is ok and then many others like Rublev/Fritz/Paul/Musetti etc with whom Zverev comes.

USO - This is actually his best chance to be seen top 3, great legacy and Djokovic Alcaraz are weaker this year. But so was Zverev. I don't even know who people will put top 3 here but definitely Sinner will be number 1, followed by Djokovic/Alcaraz at top 3 maybe.

So how this guy Zverev is number 2 if he is not even top 3 favorite at any slams?
Probably atp finals where he is top 2 favorite.

Zverev is far from becoming slam winner if he doesn't beat these guys. This year , he beat Alcaraz in AO, good but apart from that, he has lost to Meddy/Alcaraz in RG and Fritz. Even Medvedev was far closer to slam title than Zverev to be very honest. And people do not like when they are bsed.
 

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
The question is not whether Zverev is right or wrong to be the current world number 2, but whether the scoring system is consistent or not. If one thinks they are, then one must accept that Zverev is the current number 2 in the ranking. Those who on the contrary think they are not consistent, are right to have doubts about the parameters that are used to decree the scores, but they must list them, you cannot throw the stone by hiding your hand.

However, when the differences are as small as between Zverev and Alcaraz, it is legitimate to have strong doubts about their hierarchical position in this 2024, even more so considering that one of the most important tournaments, like the Olympic one, does not award points, and where Alcaraz did much better than Zverev.

Additional question, in 2022 at the end of the season Alcaraz was the number 1 in the world, but did anyone really think that in that specific season Alcaraz was a better player than Djokovic and Nadal?

As for the crux of the thread, I don't see any contradiction precisely since Zverev bases his current position to the detriment of Alcaraz/Djokovic precisely on extra major tournaments.

If we base this 2024 only on the scores obtained in the slams the ranking says;

1) Sinner 5200
2) Alcaraz 4450
3) Zverev 2700
3) Medvedev 2700
5) Djokovic 2600

But...Djokovic is Djokovic and in addition to all this he has the alibi of the knee problem that conditioned his withdrawal before playing the Roland Garros qf, but also the performance in the subsequent Wimbledon tournament independently that he then managed to reach the final.
Ergo, there is no reason for status and history to give more credit to Zverev than to a Djokovic in view of the 2025 majors, this always until proven otherwise.

Then we can discuss whether the scoring system should be further raised in slams compared to other tournaments, precisely to avoid situations like Zverev-Alcaraz 2024, but that's another matter.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
The question is not whether Zverev is right or wrong to be the current world number 2, but whether the scoring system is consistent or not. If one thinks they are, then one must accept that Zverev is the current number 2 in the ranking. Those who on the contrary think they are not consistent, are right to have doubts about the parameters that are used to decree the scores, but they must list them, you cannot throw the stone by hiding your hand.

However, when the differences are as small as between Zverev and Alcaraz, it is legitimate to have strong doubts about their hierarchical position in this 2024, even more so considering that one of the most important tournaments, like the Olympic one, does not award points, and where Alcaraz did much better than Zverev.

Additional question, in 2022 at the end of the season Alcaraz was the number 1 in the world, but did anyone really think that in that specific season Alcaraz was a better player than Djokovic and Nadal?

As for the crux of the thread, I don't see any contradiction precisely since Zverev bases his current position to the detriment of Alcaraz/Djokovic precisely on extra major tournaments.

If we base this 2024 only on the scores obtained in the slams the ranking says;

1) Sinner 5200
2) Alcaraz 4450
3) Zverev 2700
3) Medvedev 2700
5) Djokovic 2600

But...Djokovic is Djokovic and in addition to all this he has the alibi of the knee problem that conditioned his withdrawal before playing the Roland Garros qf, but also the performance in the subsequent Wimbledon tournament independently that he then managed to reach the final.
Ergo, there is no reason for status and history to give more credit to Zverev than to a Djokovic in view of the 2025 majors, this always until proven otherwise.

Then we can discuss whether the scoring system should be further raised in slams compared to other tournaments, precisely to avoid situations like Zverev-Alcaraz 2024, but that's another matter.
I think opposite is true. Slams should have even lesser points
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
So in your opinion Zverev is even more legitimized to be the current number 2.

Just out of curiosity, how would you change the scoring system (example limited to tournament winners)?
I would make masters 1 week long and add 500s so players would have more variety to play.

And yes my case would even legitimize zverev as stronger top 2 and that is not zverevs fault. It's alcaraz's fault. The guy gets way too much money playing exhos and is not respecting the calendar at all. Then he says shorten the calendar. Very wrong.
 

Neptune

Hall of Fame
Some propaganda conditioned 'fans' have no sense of fairness in sports: they want the establishment, big sponsors, media, and even politicians to fix the slam outcomes so their favorite can get everything with just 8 weeks of work per year.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Some propaganda conditioned 'fans' have no sense of fairness in sports: they want the establishment, big sponsors, media, and even politicians to fix the slam outcomes so their favorite can get everything with just 8 weeks of work per year.
Exactly. And many of us are rightfully against it.

It's good for old players but when young players like alcaraz stop caring , then it's a problem with the younger ones.
 
is because he is not even top 3 contender for next 4 slams. Forget top 2.

AO - Djokovic is the AO GOAT and will be top favorite (Sinner fans have to relax), Sinner Alcaraz closer to him. Then after some gap there is Zverev.

RG - Alcaraz is reigning RG champ and Djokovic has won OG on it without losing a set. Even Sinner will be better threat here than Zverev. Then there is Ruud/Tsitsipas/Rune who are all level with Zverev. He is at best top 3 if not top 4 here.

Wimby - Forget about it. This is for best players in the world. That means Djokovic/Sinner/Alcaraz will be top 3. Along with them there is Meddy who is ok and then many others like Rublev/Fritz/Paul/Musetti etc with whom Zverev comes.

USO - This is actually his best chance to be seen top 3, great legacy and Djokovic Alcaraz are weaker this year. But so was Zverev. I don't even know who people will put top 3 here but definitely Sinner will be number 1, followed by Djokovic/Alcaraz at top 3 maybe.

So how this guy Zverev is number 2 if he is not even top 3 favorite at any slams?
Probably atp finals where he is top 2 favorite.

Zverev is far from becoming slam winner if he doesn't beat these guys. This year , he beat Alcaraz in AO, good but apart from that, he has lost to Meddy/Alcaraz in RG and Fritz. Even Medvedev was far closer to slam title than Zverev to be very honest. And people do not like when they are bsed.
Because that’s not how the ranking system works?
 

BenBen

New User
Slams are all that matters. I used to place bets on Masters 250/500 tournaments that preceded a Masters 1000 event where a premier player had points to defend. If their sponsor was sponsoring the smaller run up event in any capacity, I would bet heavy on the underdogs in the first couple of rounds, betting essentially on their attendance fee and sponsor obligations. It works, especially in WTA. Look at Andy Murray at the Citi Open when he was with Under Armor......
 

big ted

Legend
at this point zverev > djokovic.. so is sinner and alcarez. djokovic is NOT the favorite to win anywhere anymore thank goodness
 

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
Some propaganda conditioned 'fans' have no sense of fairness in sports: they want the establishment, big sponsors, media, and even politicians to fix the slam outcomes so their favorite can get everything with just 8 weeks of work per year.
It's a very complex discussion.
Here we are not in the old discussion about who between Sinner and Alcaraz should be considered the best player in 2024 regardless of their respective positions in the rankings.
Sinner had a better performance than Alcaraz in the slams, in the masters 1000 and also in the 500, so the question made no sense to ask.

In the case of Zverev vs Alcaraz the scenario completely changes, Alcaraz did much better than Zverev in the slams, at the Olympics, in general he boasts 4 tournaments won to 2.
So anyone who considers Alcaraz a better player than Zverev in 2024 has every right to do so.
And this is where there is perhaps a scoring system that is quite distorted from true reality.
The main reason why Zverev is ahead of Alcaraz in the rankings is due to the quantity of results rather than the quality, ergo, is it right to reward those who play many more tournaments in the rankings compared to those who play fewer?

And in any case I would like to underline that one of the players who complained most about such a busy calendar was Zverev himself during the Laver Cup, indeed, he was the first to raise the controversy followed by Alcaraz himself, and yet In 2024, Zverev himself was among the top players the player who played the most, even attending two 250 tournaments (Los Cabos and Munchen), which could have been even 3 (Stuttgart) if he hadn't reached the end in Paris.

Here we say "predicare bene e razzolare male" (preach well and scratch badly).
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
It's a very complex discussion.
Here we are not in the old discussion about who between Sinner and Alcaraz should be considered the best player in 2024 regardless of their respective positions in the rankings.
Sinner had a better performance than Alcaraz in the slams, in the masters 1000 and also in the 500, so the question made no sense to ask.

In the case of Zverev vs Alcaraz the scenario completely changes, Alcaraz did much better than Zverev in the slams, at the Olympics, in general he boasts 4 tournaments won to 2.
So anyone who considers Alcaraz a better player than Zverev in 2024 has every right to do so.
And this is where there is perhaps a scoring system that is quite distorted from true reality.
The main reason why Zverev is ahead of Alcaraz in the rankings is due to the quantity of results rather than the quality, ergo, is it right to reward those who play many more tournaments in the rankings compared to those who play fewer?

And in any case I would like to underline that one of the players who complained most about such a busy calendar was Zverev himself during the Laver Cup, indeed, he was the first to raise the controversy followed by Alcaraz himself, and yet In 2024, Zverev himself was among the top players the player who played the most, even attending two 250 tournaments (Los Cabos and Munchen), which could have been even 3 (Stuttgart) if he hadn't reached the end in Paris.

Here we say "predicare bene e razzolare male" (preach well and scratch badly).
Alcaraz played 4 exhos

Netflix slam
Laver cup
6 Kings slam
Saudi exho with Djokovic

Only thing I can agree is Olympics should be given more pts like they were in 2012. Then raz might be ahead of zverev. Or maybe not even then. Raz played many exhos and lost in r1/2 of actual tournaments. No amount of calendar fixing can help when he is earning many millions in exho
 

anarosevoli

Semi-Pro
Giving slams much more points in general is not possible. It would be fair only for the top players. In the lower ranks random lucky slam runs would be rewarded too much if slams had more weight than now.

But a simple trick could make things better: Keep the ranking system as it is but put the Top 10* in the order of points earned at the last 4 slams.

*or maybe only Top 8 in order to ensure that nobody loses their seeding advantage because of this
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Giving slams much more points in general is not possible. It would be fair only for the top players. In the lower ranks random lucky slam runs would be rewarded too much if slams had more weight than now.

But a simple trick could make things better: Keep the ranking system as it is but put the Top 10* in the order of points earned at the last 4 slams.

*or maybe only Top 8 in order to insure that nobody loses their seeding advantage because of this
This is very tricky thing to do when top 8 depends on slam results. Impossible to apply in real life.
 

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
I forgot... so far the seasonal comparison between the 2 against players ranked top 5 and top 10 has been merciless;

Against top 5
Alcaraz= 8-1
Zverev= 1-4

Against top 10
Alcaraz= 11-3
Zverev= 5-6

Here too, perhaps it would be better to go back to assigning bonus/minus scores based on the ranking of the opponents faced, as happened in the past.

However, the gist of the discussion is that all the arguments that the pro Alcaraz had in the dispute with Sinner in this 2024, therefore h2h, higher peak, better performance against the top players, given the abysmal difference in performance between the 2 with Sinner did not have citizenship to make him prefer the Spaniard's season to his, while they are absolutely sensible arguments in the much more balanced diatribe Zverev vs Alcaraz pro Spanish player.
 

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
Alcaraz played 4 exhos

Netflix slam
Laver cup
6 Kings slam
Saudi exho with Djokovic

Only thing I can agree is Olympics should be given more pts like they were in 2012. Then raz might be ahead of zverev. Or maybe not even then. Raz played many exhos and lost in r1/2 of actual tournaments. No amount of calendar fixing can help when he is earning many millions in exho
No, but I actually agree with you on this.
Alcaraz should also examine his conscience before making certain statements.

Having said that, compared to official tournaments, exhibitions require less psychophysical expenditure, more carefree and free-minded games, precisely because they are exhibitions, and above all if in exhibitions the match begins when the two contenders take to the field, in official tournaments the match begins as soon as the contenders they get off the plane, in the sense that the matches in official tournaments are prepared much earlier and much more seriously, taking care of every detail.

Having said that, I share some of your opinions on the issue, but I too, like others, think that in this 2024 Alcaraz was a better player than Zverev, net of any other discussion relating to the scoring system.
 

Pheasant

Legend
Better yet, Carlos should play better and more often in those other tourneys that are allegedly "easy" to make deep runs in and win. All of the players know at the beginning of the season how much the tourneys are worth and how the ranking system works. If they give a rip about the rankings, then they should play acccordingly. If they don't, then that's on them when it comes to the YE ranking.

I'd really like to see Alcaraz make a lot more deep runs at those Masters events. He missed Rome; an event that Zverev won. He was dumped in R2 of Cinci, an event that Zverev went to the semis at. He was dumped in R3 of Paris, an event that Zverev won. This is all a major bummer. As I said, the last thing that I want to see is #3 Alcaraz meeting #1 Sinner in a slam semi. That to me is bittersweet. Alcaraz should be #2. But he didn't earn it; Zverev did. And that sucks. But it's fair. Zverev played far more events and made deeper runs at those events(outside of slams). I'd like to see Alcaraz get a lot better at the other 36 weeks of the season. He's great at the biggest 8 weeks.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
He is number 2 from making good runs in many tournys, not because he accomplished anything noteworthy...except playing a lot and doing well.

Winning a Masters is always noteworthy especially when he now has more of them than any other active player bar Djokovic and Nadal.
 

Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
It's not the same case as when Vilas was not thought as the #2 with two slams in 1977, as he was thought as #1 that year.
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
I do wish people would learn how the ranking system works, what it can do, what it can't do, so we wouldn't see threads like this.
 

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
However, just to give an idea of Alcaraz's anomalous season, just think that in 2024 his winning percentage is significantly higher against players ranked in the top 5 than it is against players ranked outside the top 5.

Alcaraz's season record against players ranked in the top 5;
8-1 (89%)

Alcaraz's season record against players ranked outside the top 5;
44-10 (81.5%)

I don't think it has happened often in history, at least among top players or in any case with a rather significant number of matches against top 5 (it is clear that Nardi 2024 against top 1 has 100% while outside top 1 he has a negative record).

But still... I wonder how many times it has happened that a player has 50% (or more) of his season tournament wins in slams.
Even the 2023 Djokovic who played down his appearances in the most important tournaments, giving further precedence to the slams, still won 4 of his 7 tournaments outside the slams.
Cases similar to Alcaraz 2024 are Nadal 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022 (always 50%) and I think very few others, but that was also a Nadal who played far fewer tournaments outside of slams than Alcaraz 2024.
 
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Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
He's number 2 by the numbers/points system but I'm putting Alcaraz above him this year.

He's got superior achievements to Street and he actually wins slams.

Yea idk, Z being number 2 is kind of annoying but that's how it goes.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
He's number 2 by the numbers/points system but I'm putting Alcaraz above him this year.

He's got superior achievements to Street and he actually wins slams.

Yea idk, Z being number 2 is kind of annoying but that's how it goes.
He is not even top 3 fav at any slams
 

zakopinjo

Professional
Zverev is the real number 2
2700(slams)+3500(masters)+630(atp500)+150(atp250)+335(united cup)=7315

Alcaraz is the real number 3
4450(slams)+1710(masters)+550(atp500)+100=6810
 
it might be because he has 0 slams, and the 3rd ranked guy has 2 slams this season and 4 in the past three seasons????

Would you have ranked Roddick ahead of Federer after Wimbledon 2005? Roddick had one slam, Federer 5 (4 difference same with Zverev and Alcaraz)


Edit - would you have ranked Roddick over Federer after AO 2004 (one slam difference, Roddick had more masters but Federer had a YEC)


Obvious question, why don't people rank a guy who has 0 slams over a guy with 4? Lol
 
Zverev is the real number 2
2700(slams)+3500(masters)+630(atp500)+150(atp250)+335(united cup)=7315

Alcaraz is the real number 3
4450(slams)+1710(masters)+550(atp500)+100=6810

and no one is going to remember zverev unless there's a thread called 'best wifebeater in tennis?'
 

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
Without going too far back in time, before the 2013 US Open Ferrer was number 4 in the ranking, and before the 2013 Australian Open number 3 in the ranking, in those two slams did anyone consider him one of the top 5 contenders?

Ruud ended 2022 number 3 in the rankings, at the end of 2022 some considered him one of the top 3 contenders for the 2023 slams?

I don't even consider Australian Open, Wimbledon and US Open.
We can argue about Roland Garros, but at the end of 2022 in the hierarchies for Roland Garros 2023 I doubt anyone would put him ahead of Nadal (never mind that he then missed practically the entire season, you can't think in hindsight), Djokovic, Alcaraz and maybe I add Tsitsipas too.
 
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GloW

Professional
is because he is not even top 3 contender for next 4 slams. Forget top 2.

AO - Djokovic is the AO GOAT and will be top favorite (Sinner fans have to relax), Sinner Alcaraz closer to him. Then after some gap there is Zverev.

RG - Alcaraz is reigning RG champ and Djokovic has won OG on it without losing a set. Even Sinner will be better threat here than Zverev. Then there is Ruud/Tsitsipas/Rune who are all level with Zverev. He is at best top 3 if not top 4 here.

Wimby - Forget about it. This is for best players in the world. That means Djokovic/Sinner/Alcaraz will be top 3. Along with them there is Meddy who is ok and then many others like Rublev/Fritz/Paul/Musetti etc with whom Zverev comes.

USO - This is actually his best chance to be seen top 3, great legacy and Djokovic Alcaraz are weaker this year. But so was Zverev. I don't even know who people will put top 3 here but definitely Sinner will be number 1, followed by Djokovic/Alcaraz at top 3 maybe.

So how this guy Zverev is number 2 if he is not even top 3 favorite at any slams?
Probably atp finals where he is top 2 favorite.

Zverev is far from becoming slam winner if he doesn't beat these guys. This year , he beat Alcaraz in AO, good but apart from that, he has lost to Meddy/Alcaraz in RG and Fritz. Even Medvedev was far closer to slam title than Zverev to be very honest. And people do not like when they are bsed.
the favorite you are for a tournament does not equate to ranking as for example nadal would be the favorite of RG regardless of his ranking pre 2022 and Sinner is also not favorite for most tournaments despite being the world #1.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
the favorite you are for a tournament does not equate to ranking as for example nadal would be the favorite of RG regardless of his ranking pre 2022 and Sinner is also not favorite for most tournaments despite being the world #1.
Sinner is top 2 fav easily for all tournaments to me.
 

RoddickAce

Hall of Fame
System shows that Zverev is the #2 player based on stats. Fair take.

Fans see Sinner, Alcaraz and Djoko as having higher playing abilities at their best / when it counts the most, despite what the stats show. Also a fair take.

Don't really see any conflict or issue with either view.
 

Aabye5

G.O.A.T.
is because he is not even top 3 contender for next 4 slams. Forget top 2.

AO - Djokovic is the AO GOAT and will be top favorite (Sinner fans have to relax), Sinner Alcaraz closer to him. Then after some gap there is Zverev.

RG - Alcaraz is reigning RG champ and Djokovic has won OG on it without losing a set. Even Sinner will be better threat here than Zverev. Then there is Ruud/Tsitsipas/Rune who are all level with Zverev. He is at best top 3 if not top 4 here.

Wimby - Forget about it. This is for best players in the world. That means Djokovic/Sinner/Alcaraz will be top 3. Along with them there is Meddy who is ok and then many others like Rublev/Fritz/Paul/Musetti etc with whom Zverev comes.

USO - This is actually his best chance to be seen top 3, great legacy and Djokovic Alcaraz are weaker this year. But so was Zverev. I don't even know who people will put top 3 here but definitely Sinner will be number 1, followed by Djokovic/Alcaraz at top 3 maybe.

So how this guy Zverev is number 2 if he is not even top 3 favorite at any slams?
Probably atp finals where he is top 2 favorite.

Zverev is far from becoming slam winner if he doesn't beat these guys. This year , he beat Alcaraz in AO, good but apart from that, he has lost to Meddy/Alcaraz in RG and Fritz. Even Medvedev was far closer to slam title than Zverev to be very honest. And people do not like when they are bsed.

I don't think it has anything to do with next year. It's purely a matter of what happened this year.

Besides, I know the big 3 have conditioned us to believe that the status quo will never change, but there are a lot of open questions for next year. Djokovic is clearly slowing, Sinner will need to be on his toes as far as the doping allegations, and Alcaraz has had a few upsets.
 

JasonZ

Hall of Fame
The question is not whether Zverev is right or wrong to be the current world number 2, but whether the scoring system is consistent or not. If one thinks they are, then one must accept that Zverev is the current number 2 in the ranking. Those who on the contrary think they are not consistent, are right to have doubts about the parameters that are used to decree the scores, but they must list them, you cannot throw the stone by hiding your hand.

However, when the differences are as small as between Zverev and Alcaraz, it is legitimate to have strong doubts about their hierarchical position in this 2024, even more so considering that one of the most important tournaments, like the Olympic one, does not award points, and where Alcaraz did much better than Zverev.

Additional question, in 2022 at the end of the season Alcaraz was the number 1 in the world, but did anyone really think that in that specific season Alcaraz was a better player than Djokovic and Nadal?

As for the crux of the thread, I don't see any contradiction precisely since Zverev bases his current position to the detriment of Alcaraz/Djokovic precisely on extra major tournaments.

If we base this 2024 only on the scores obtained in the slams the ranking says;

1) Sinner 5200
2) Alcaraz 4450
3) Zverev 2700
3) Medvedev 2700
5) Djokovic 2600

But...Djokovic is Djokovic and in addition to all this he has the alibi of the knee problem that conditioned his withdrawal before playing the Roland Garros qf, but also the performance in the subsequent Wimbledon tournament independently that he then managed to reach the final.
Ergo, there is no reason for status and history to give more credit to Zverev than to a Djokovic in view of the 2025 majors, this always until proven otherwise.

Then we can discuss whether the scoring system should be further raised in slams compared to other tournaments, precisely to avoid situations like Zverev-Alcaraz 2024, but that's another matter.
well, you can argue that the point difference between masters and slams is too small compared to their prestige. masters are 1000 points and slams 2000, but a slam is definetely more worth than 2 masters.
 

Aabye5

G.O.A.T.
well, you can argue that the point difference between masters and slams is too small compared to their prestige. masters are 1000 points and slams 2000, but a slam is definetely more worth than 2 masters.

In one sense yes, but in terms of match wins + sets + time off, I would say three M1000s are approximately a major.
 
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