Why players choke too much against Nadal?

Kralingen said:
You have serious issues, Octobrina. Anyone with eyes can see that Rafa uses the full service clock on big points such as BP or deuce (whether it’s 25 seconds now, or the aforementioned 30 seconds before).

My entire post was complimentary to Rafa and you decide to say I was cheating readers?

Your obsession is unhealthy.
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Whenever I see the likes of octo, clayqueen and weakera posting about Nadal, images of Sandra Bernhard in The King Of Comedy immediately spring to mind. Really creepy stuff.
 
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Forgive Me Father said:
no, he really has not.

In fact, no one has won his slams with greater margin of victory and less sets won than Nadal.


This revisionist history is absolute crap.

Roddick was up a break on Fed in the 3rd set 2004 WB F
Agassi had BP's to serve for the 3rd set 2004 USO QF
Kiefer served for the 4th set 2005 WB and threw in 3 UE's
Davydenko had 6 SP's for a 2-1 set lead at 2006 AO and made 4 UE's
Roddick had 4 BP's to go up a break 3rd set 2006 USO, netted his favorite shot in the world
Gonzalez had 2 SP's for a 1-0 set lead 2007 AO, another FH UE.
Djokovic had 5 SP's to take a set lead 2007 USO, 4 UE's.

Wanna hear some real blunders?

Acasuso had SP for the first 3 sets of the 2009 FO match, served for the 3rd set twice....
Haas missing a smash to give away the 3rd set from 2-0 up.
Del Po DF'ing the decisive 5th set break.
Roddick 4 SP's for a 2-0 set lead 2009 WB, bricks volley.
Andreev had 3 SP's for a 2-1 set lead 2010 AO, 3 identical FH UE's.
Davydenko up 6-2 3-1 BP for double break, nets a forecourt sitter off a Federer shank. Completely implodes.
Djokovic BP to serve for a 2-1 set lead at 2012 WB, misses return.
Murray 2 BPs to serve for a 2-0 set lead, UE.
Wawrinka BP for a 5th set lead at 2017 AO, UE.
Nadal GP for a 4-2 lead, UE.
Cilic gazilion GP's on return and serve to start 5th set at 2018 AO, UE every time.

All, washed over or forgotten....

if some of these things had happened to Nadal or Djokovic, the heads of Federer fans would explode.

The fact is, Federer hasn't let a slam go by without being in need of a gift.
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I can’t remember almost anything of that. Why?
 
octobrina10 said:
You created yet another fake story about Rafa! You are ignoring the fact that the ATP Tour uses the serve clock (since the summer of 2018). It's impossible for a player to "take" more time between the points than the serve clock allows without being punished by the chair umpire.

The chair umpire operates the serve clock, he/she gives a player 25 seconds to start the next point. The 25-second countdown begins, when the umpire triggers the serve clock and players have to monitor the time on the serve clock. The umpire will give a player a time violation warning (or the player loses his 1st serve or a point), if the player hasn't started his service motion prior to the expiration of 25 seconds.
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If you authorize me, I can report that defamatory post on your behalf.
 
Basketball teams would often choke in the waning minutes versus Michael Jordan and the Bulls.

Football teams have choked away lots of 4th quarter leads versus Tom Brady-led teams.

More examples?
 
Kralingen said:
You have serious issues, Octobrina. Anyone with eyes can see that Rafa uses the full service clock on big points such as BP or deuce (whether it’s 25 seconds now, or the aforementioned 30 seconds before).

My entire post was complimentary to Rafa and you decide to say I was cheating readers?

Your obsession is unhealthy.
Click to expand...
I will report her post, too.
 
wangs78 said:
The thing with Nadal (and Djokovic) is they now have an aura of being more dangerous when they are down in a match. So if you're a Nexgen, you arguably feel more pressure when you're up a set or two against them, than at 0-0 at the start of the match. It's ridiculous, but that's the way psychology works.
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The solution to this for the NextGen members is to never lead Djokovic or Nadal in a tennis match.
It’s better to lose a match for any reason, better than choking.
 
JaxTeller said:
Djokovic has a clear better forecourt game than nadal.. better in drop shot redirection, better in Volleyes (yes, Novak is better, Have you ever seen Nadal putting away volleyes below his waist,? It's just that he has a safer approach)..And ofc..Novak is a cleaner ballstriker,plus better depthBotter,..Etc etc..
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On top of that, Nadal is a pusher, as it has been already solidly proved in a very revealing thread, which I hope was not already deleted.
 
RaulRamirez said:
Basketball teams would often choke in the waning minutes versus Michael Jordan and the Bulls.

Football teams have choked away lots of 4th quarter leads versus Tom Brady-led teams.

More examples?
Click to expand...
In football (yes, football as I would like to call it, not sOcCeR), Man Utd under Sir Alex's years were pretty well known for their comebacks in both leagues and cups for whatever reasons (opponents choked, they raised their level or went for broke). A notable example is their European Cup '99 win over Bayern Munich, probably the greatest football comeback of all time (and indeed greater than Liverpool's over AC Milan in the European Cup '05).
 
RaulRamirez said:
Basketball teams would often choke in the waning minutes versus Michael Jordan and the Bulls.

Football teams have choked away lots of 4th quarter leads versus Tom Brady-led teams.

More examples?
Click to expand...
Boy I Love Losing Superbowls against NFC East teams (NYG, Washington, Dallas 2x).

RPS…GB owns Dallas who own SF but SF owns GB.
 
aldeayeah said:
I'll ignore the GOAT wars drivel and answer the OP question:

- Because he never beats himself.
- Because he's great at making points longer and giving the opponent the chance to make an error.
- Because he has an uncanny ability to raise his level when he smells weakness.
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Wrong

the real truth is that Nadal sucks and everyone else inexplicably play like 3.0 pushers who miss when they play against him

NEXT!
 
stringertom said:
Boy I Love Losing Superbowls against NFC East teams (NYG, Washington, Dallas 2x).

RPS…GB owns Dallas who own SF but SF owns GB.
Click to expand...
On the spot acronym? I hadn't seen that one, and like it.
...
Of course, what I most wanted to point out is that a lot of teams and players seem to choke against the very best - who are talented, mentally tough and ultracompetitive.
 
RaulRamirez said:
On the spot acronym? I hadn't seen that one, and like it.
...
Of course, what I most wanted to point out is that a lot of teams and players seem to choke against the very best - who are talented, mentally tough and ultracompetitive.
Click to expand...
No, that is an old take on Buffalo. It was started when the franchise from western NY was the perennial NFL bridesmaid.
 
Forgive Me Father said:
no, he really has not.

In fact, no one has won his slams with greater margin of victory and less sets won than Nadal.


This revisionist history is absolute crap.

Roddick was up a break on Fed in the 3rd set 2004 WB F
Agassi had BP's to serve for the 3rd set 2004 USO QF
Kiefer served for the 4th set 2005 WB and threw in 3 UE's
Davydenko had 6 SP's for a 2-1 set lead at 2006 AO and made 4 UE's
Roddick had 4 BP's to go up a break 3rd set 2006 USO, netted his favorite shot in the world
Gonzalez had 2 SP's for a 1-0 set lead 2007 AO, another FH UE.
Djokovic had 5 SP's to take a set lead 2007 USO, 4 UE's.

Wanna hear some real blunders?

Acasuso had SP for the first 3 sets of the 2009 FO match, served for the 3rd set twice....
Haas missing a smash to give away the 3rd set from 2-0 up.
Del Po DF'ing the decisive 5th set break.
Roddick 4 SP's for a 2-0 set lead 2009 WB, bricks volley.
Andreev had 3 SP's for a 2-1 set lead 2010 AO, 3 identical FH UE's.
Davydenko up 6-2 3-1 BP for double break, nets a forecourt sitter off a Federer shank. Completely implodes.
Djokovic BP to serve for a 2-1 set lead at 2012 WB, misses return.
Murray 2 BPs to serve for a 2-0 set lead, UE.
Wawrinka BP for a 5th set lead at 2017 AO, UE.
Nadal GP for a 4-2 lead, UE.
Cilic gazilion GP's on return and serve to start 5th set at 2018 AO, UE every time.

All, washed over or forgotten....

if some of these things had happened to Nadal or Djokovic, the heads of Federer fans would explode.

The fact is, Federer hasn't let a slam go by without being in need of a gift.
Click to expand...
I like Federer but the way his fans have acted these past couple years drives me insane. Fed was older than Djokodal are right now when he won 3 majors after age 35 with even worse young competition than there is now...in 2017/early 2018, there was no Medvedev or Stefanos, and Thiem/Zverev were still not at that level yet at non-clay slams. He was beating up on Cilic, Chung, and washed up Berdych to win WI '17 and AO '18
 
stringertom said:
No, that is an old take on Buffalo. It was started when the franchise from western NY was the perennial NFL bridesmaid.
Click to expand...
Sure - I know their history, and watched those four consecutive SB efforts, usually rooting for them each time.
And they may have added to that history of heartbreak with that crazy loss to KC this year.
 
Octobrina is epic :p

giphy.gif
 
RaulRamirez said:
Sure - I know their history, and watched those four consecutive SB efforts, usually rooting for them each time.
And they may have added to that history of heartbreak with that crazy loss to KC this year.
Click to expand...
The worst may be the titanic fail in Nashville on the lateral?/forward pass kickoff return a few years after the SB skid.
 
Threads like this are always hilarious to me. It's Nadal's "opponents choking" and not his great play, mental strength and refusal to lose. Concerning the Nadal/Korda match, did y'all not see the wonderful cross court backhand when he was 3-5 down?? Or the patience and perfectly timed shots in the tiebreak?? But Nadal's comeback wins always have to be categorized as purely his opponents choking?? We're 18+ years into him winning, and this is still the excuse?? Laughable
 
JaxTeller said:
It's unreal tbh.. Nadal has made his career out of opponent's choke,
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Choke is a TTW thing to take something away from the winner. Yes, choke happens sometimes - Novotna or Fed's 40-15.

With Rafa every point from start to finish is a battle. The balls keep coming back. You think you are safe to score a winner but then a screaming down the line winner comes from nowhere. The relentless accuracy of his high bouncing top spins combined with his huge array of shots is draining. It gets into your head. Combine that with pressure of closing it when you know Rafa is not going to give up. People should stop using 'choke' loosely.
 
The problem is not he is on the verge of time, the problem is the umpire start his clock always 10-15 seconds later.
And i wouldn't have a problem with he specifically if this was the case for all or a few other ATP tennis players, but it's not. Only he is getting this.
Obviously someone from ATP instructed the umpires to start his clock late.
The clock should have start automatically after the point is ended, like in the challengers tournaments.
But then Nadal would be DQ every single match or end up injured or so.

When you are used to play like that, you firstly have more time to recover between points and we know he is playing hard points. Secondly it gives him more time to recover mentally after losing an important point and next is coming, also giving him more time to recover for his serve. On top of that he can calm down after disappointing point.

Also he is giving himself more of a time if he has a low time on the court, aka his game is struggling, just like in Medvedev match. Also your opponent is getting more and more annoyed waiting like an i**** on the return. They are getting frustrated the moment they are missing important point and when the result is not in their favor for example.
On top of that this is a very good strategy to break their rhythm and momentum, as 99,99% of the players are used to serve fast and in that period of 25 seconds even a lot less.
And stretching this to a minute and even more, especially when he miss first serve, another big time violation he is doing is with the second serve, as he constantly is taking 15-20 second between first and second, and the rule is to serve straight away after you miss the 1st.
On top of that he is stretching the match and constantly make games where he serve a time battle that last 10-15 minutes, and even more, which this is very exhaustion for the enemy player, both mentally and physically, and he is doing it successfully because of the above arguments on constantly being over the time.
On top of that, just like in Medvedev match, this stretch the match quite a while, and he is well prepared even now, because he is taking plenty of time to recover between points, and go into 3-4-5+ hours battles.

As far as some Nadal blinded fanboys i put most of them on ignore. It's what they deserve.
They are talking, and the moment i show the video proofs they start reporting my post and go into hidding.

In the Medvedev AO match, he was on the 35-40+ seconds all the time from the very beginning.
Everyone can download the match and see that i'm right, and everyone can see when the points end and when his clock is being started by the umpire.

And btw in the 1/2 final against Djokovic in the RG was a pure example, as the diva complaining to the supervisor when his clock has been started, even tho the umpire at that match started the clock like 10+ seconds after the point has been ended - truly pathetic.

Be my guess download that match, and see how much time he is taking between the points.
This is a very good video saying it all:

And yeah i'm going to speak about it, cause he is allowed to cheat. Tsitsipas is penalized on the 26 seconds. He is getting 2 time violation in a single game for being on the 26 and a 27 seconds. His clock even after a hard point is started immediately, but Nadal is getting a pass, because the umpires have been well instructed to start his clock late.


I blame Federer and other players from the pass, who was way too "kind" with his cheating behavior, who was even worst back then, and he was getting away with more.
They should have wanted a strict rules and constantly complain about that.
Federer was not happy with his tactics and made plenty of comments about it, and that especially on BPs Nadal is taking way much time, which ruins the players momentums, but he should have been taking a stand about it, but he always try to be " politically correctly ".
 
lordlosh said:
...
On top of that, just like in Medvedev match, this stretch the match quite a while, and he is well prepared even now, because he is taking plenty of time to recover between points,...
In the Medvedev AO match, he [Rafa] was on the 35-40+ seconds all the time from the very beginning.
...
Click to expand...
This is a blatant lie! The chair umpire gives a player 25 seconds to start the next point. The 25-second countdown begins, when the umpire triggers the serve clock and players have to monitor the time on the serve clock. The umpire will give a player a time violation warning (or the server loses his 1st serve or a point), if the player doesn't stay within the 25-second time limit (or the receiver doesn't stay within the reasonable time limit, which is less than 25 seconds).
 
octobrina10 said:
This is a blatant lie! The chair umpire gives a player 25 seconds to start the next point. The 25-second countdown begins, when the umpire triggers the serve clock and players have to monitor the time on the serve clock. The umpire will give a player a time violation warning (or the server loses his 1st serve or a point), if the player doesn't stay within the 25-second time limit (or the receiver doesn't stay within the reasonable time limit, which is less than 25 seconds).
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What's your daily slay count ? :) Queen. Ain't you tired of slaying Fed and Djokovic worshippers?
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
I mean Nadal doesn't just "collect chokes" passively, which is impossible and not what's happening, but some of these are funny, like the Kiefer one - might as well remember Andujar losing a set to Nadal from 5-1 40-0 or something. Those don't matter, not like Federer/Nadal/whoever were losing anyway.

Honestly, while this is an annoying choke because Korda is supposed to be a promising youngster not some generic mug, the real issue is that Oldal's heavily declined tennis is still more than enough when he's in half-decent form, which is ridiculous but there we are.
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It doesn't matter that Kiefer served for a 5th set?

I vividly remember you saying on reddit that that would indeed be a big deal.

Now the agenda has changed as you have become even more biased.

Funny and sad at the same time.
 
Forgive Me Father said:
It doesn't matter that Kiefer served for a 5th set?

I vividly remember you saying on reddit that that would indeed be a big deal.

Now the agenda has changed as you have become even more biased.

Funny and sad at the same time.
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Exposed your identity, you have. For sure, morally and intellectually advanced people never change their minds, like you are always willing to show.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Exposed your identity, you have. For sure, morally and intellectually advanced people never change their minds, like you are always willing to show.
Click to expand...

Huh?

I've literally recalled past interactions. I didn't realize you hadn't gotten that yet.

Yeah, because completely changing your opinion on a matter of fact makes sense.

A 5th set is always tricky, but apparently there is no universe in which anything could have happened to Federer in a potentially vulnerable situation with no slams on the year and saying he definitely wants/needs Wimbledon before the tournament.
 
Forgive Me Father said:
Huh?

I've literally recalled past interactions. I didn't realize you hadn't gotten that yet.

Yeah, because completely changing your opinion on a matter of fact makes sense.

A 5th set is always tricky, but apparently there is no universe in which anything could have happened to Federer in a potentially vulnerable situation with no slams on the year and saying he definitely wants/needs Wimbledon before the tournament.
Click to expand...

Ah right, only the mythical BOATdal and GOATovic can win fifth sets against lesser players reliably. For Federer, it is beyond his wildest dreams, no matter how "peak" the fraud appears to be. It's a twisted analysis where winning in 4 is treated as actually worse than winning in 5, because the player who won in 4 failed to prove his ability to win a hypothetical fifth set. Brilliant trollery.

All this says is Federer was a bit more vulnerable than it seemed and slightly lowers my opinion of his 05 run but he's still a strong favourite in a hypothetical against Nadal (let alone Djokovic) given what transpired in 07/08.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Ah right, only the mythical BOATdal and GOATovic can win fifth sets against lesser players reliably. For Federer, it is beyond his wildest dreams, no matter how "peak" the fraud appears to be. It's a twisted analysis where winning in 4 is treated as actually worse than winning in 5, because the player who won in 4 failed to prove his ability to win a hypothetical fifth set. Brilliant trollery.

All this says is Federer was a bit more vulnerable than it seemed and slightly lowers my opinion of his 05 run but he's still a strong favourite in a hypothetical against Nadal (let alone Djokovic) given what transpired in 07/08.
Click to expand...

You're not making any sense again.

Focus and stay on point, stop this trolling.

AnOctorokForDinner said:
It's a twisted analysis where winning in 4 is treated as actually worse than winning in 5, because the player who won in 4 failed to prove his ability to win a hypothetical fifth set. Brilliant trollery.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the case with all chokes received? You win sooner rather than later, at a time where the match would be far more ambiguous.

How is this news to you?

You really thought you had something there didn't you?

That's how lucking out works.

It has nothing to do with trollery.

It's being spared a far tougher environment at the hands of an opponent choking.

How else would you assess a player completely choking when failing to serve out a set, and the other closing the 4th?
 
Forgive Me Father said:
You're not making any sense again.

Focus and stay on point, stop this trolling.



Isn't that the case with all chokes received? You win sooner rather than later, at a time where the match would be far more ambiguous.

How is this news to you?

You really thought you had something there didn't you?

That's how lucking out works.

It has nothing to do with trollery.

It's being spared a far tougher environment at the hands of an opponent choking.

How else would you assess a player completely choking when failing to serve out a set, and the other closing the 4th?
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How do you assess Andujar choking the 3rd set against Nadal at RG? Hardly matters, right? The 4th set matters more of course but still nowhere near a winning position in the context. Federer had a 100% record in five-setters against non-Nadal opponents for years, he ain't losing to Kiefer lol. The twisted dullard reasoning where beating Kiefer in 4 is a hypothetical loss while beating Haase in 5 (with him fading when two sets to one up) is a real win. Sad.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
How do you assess Andujar choking the 3rd set against Nadal at RG? Hardly matters, right? The 4th set matters more of course but still nowhere near a winning position in the context. Federer had a 100% record in five-setters against non-Nadal opponents for years, he ain't losing to Kiefer lol. The twisted dullard reasoning where beating Kiefer in 4 is a hypothetical loss while beating Haase in 5 (with him fading when two sets to one up) is a real win. Sad.
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One would be making it a 1-2 match, the other making it a 2-2 match.

Seems like completely different scenarios to me, but what do I know.

Well, thats the thing about a 5th set... at least you played it out. All options were emptied. Nadal effectively proved he was better, even being taken to a 5th. As did Federer when he beat Haas '06 AO.

It would be best for you if you get off your high horse, btw.
 
Forgive Me Father said:
One would be making it a 1-2 match, the other making it a 2-2 match.

Seems like completely different scenarios to me, but what do I know.

Well, thats the thing about a 5th set... at least you played it out. All options were emptied. Nadal effectively proved he was better, even being taken to a 5th. As did Federer when he beat Haas '06 AO.

It would be best for you if you get off your high horse, btw.
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Rafanboi logic says being two sets to one down is closer to winning than being two sets apiece? Roflmao.

Sorry mate, I find it hard to respect people who make objectionable statements. You disrespect human decency by making them anyway, so this is not inappropriate.

I see this is hinting at winning dominant sets being better than winning close sets regardless of the number of sets lost or the nature of opponent, as well as close matches invalidating entire runs. Take Shanghai 2014 away because Federer should have lost to Mayer, take USO 2016 away because Wawrinka should have lost to Evans, take 2016 YEC away because Murray should have lost to Raonic. Nevermind the quality of subsequent matches (and opponents, all of them beating Djokovic for the title). Do not take anything away from the goatdal because all his close wins are sheer manifestation of goatness. In actuality though, at this point a hiccup even in a medium difficulty tournament hardly weakens those runs in comparison to what we've been seen in recent years. Put 2006 AO Federer in 2022 AO and he barely loses a set and never comes anywhere close to losing two in one match (including against that Nadal, ha). The level is just so different. I do not think highly of nextgen's tennis and their lack of reliability unless they're serving from a tree but they have never been able to maintain that in a big BO5 match.
 
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