Why split step?

[user92626]

If he’s watching the opponent’s arm (or their racket head), there is a very good chance that he is actually employing a subtle no-hop SS variation that you are just not seeing — cuz it is much more difficult to detect, to the casual observer, than a standard (robust) Split Step.

I started discussing this no-hop SS alternative on Talk Tennis more than 15 years ago. It is a SS variation that is sometimes employed by competive badminton players. I started teaching this alternative nearly 20 years ago to older tennis players as well as overweight / unfit tennis players. In several threads in the past, I have referred to this as a geriatric SS or a no-hop SS.

For this alternative, instead of hopping, the player simply quickly lowers their body, with a moderate, or even a slight, knee bend. They timing this movement to the hitters swing & contact— they may very well perform this lowering (sinking action) as the opponent makes contact (or as soon as they hear the opponent’s contact).

This action primes the muscles and sets them up for a modest SSC (stretch-shortening cycle). This action is not as explosive as a conventional SS but it can still be quite effective in getting the body to move in a direction to intercept the opponent’s shot.

Often, when players execute this no-hop SS, they may have more weight on their toes & the balls of feet than on their heels. Again, this might be difficult to detect unless you watch slow-motion HD closeup video of their movement.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/split-steps-for-older-players.372906/#post-5503976

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ff-trying-to-split-step.584685/#post-11021968
.

(Green part) Exceptional knowledge you got there, mister. You're 100% correct.

He told me that he bends lower when he anticipates / watches opponent & ready to run. I didn't mention that because I thought it wasn't SS & unimportant. But as you said it's no-hop SS. Damnit the guy was already performing a mastery that I did not know about. No wonder he's fast!

Another thing that kills me and others is while we're concerned about FH strokes, etc, he seemingly just does anything he can (various-looking strokes) to get the ball in play--more obvious with difficult balls. He's not so concerned about forms. And he gets a great deal of balls back.

 

[10sbeast888]

(Green part) Exceptional knowledge you got there, mister. You're 100% correct.

He told me that he bends lower when he anticipates / watches opponent & ready to run. I didn't mention that because I thought it wasn't SS & unimportant. But as you said it's no-hop SS. Damnit the guy was already performing a mastery that I did not know about. No wonder he's fast!

Another thing that kills me and others is while we're concerned about FH strokes, etc, he seemingly just does anything he can (various-looking strokes) to get the ball in play--more obvious with difficult balls. He's not so concerned about forms. And he gets a great deal of balls back.

evidence ball striking >>>>> movements.

 

[liimey86]

evidence ball striking >>>>> movements.

Isn't this evidence of the opposite? User9 is saying the guy has great movement but not necc perfect form, with a result of him getting a lot of balls back.

 

[user92626]

evidence ball striking >>>>> movements.

Isn't this evidence of the opposite? User9 is saying the guy has great movement but not necc perfect form, with a result of him getting a lot of balls back.

To the hammer every problem is a nail, even when it defies facts and logics.

@Beast boy you asked me what would you and I talk about ... again and again I brought up something else other than the stroke production. Remember attitudes, perspective which you called 'zen' and now this movement thing? yeah talk about them if you're capable of. Enough with the beast fh stroke (with me)!

 

[user92626]

Isn't this evidence of the opposite? User9 is saying the guy has great movement but not necc perfect form, with a result of him getting a lot of balls back.

Exactly what I was saying. To make my point easier to understand think of MEP or pushers (though I don't want to use those terms because it's negative and undermines player's skills) I would call them junk balls player...

This group of players aren't out to hit with pretty forms -- and I'm almost sure that they aren't obsessed and adversely distracted by forms as I am. As a result they're probably more focused on the game at hand.

But here's the kicker: even without great forms their shots somehow still come out good. Perhaps it's a low level rec tennis thing. Anyone can strike the ball good and effective. Ain't like high level or pro's where a short ball gets punished.

The MEP on TT would probably kick most people's ass any day or night.

 

[10sbeast888]

Exactly what I was saying. To make my point easier to understand think of MEP or pushers (though I don't want to use those terms because it's negative and undermines player's skills) I would call them junk balls player...

This group of players aren't out to hit with pretty forms -- and I'm almost sure that they aren't obsessed and adversely distracted by forms as I am. As a result they're probably more focused on the game at hand.

But here's the kicker: even without great forms their shots somehow still come out good. Perhaps it's a low level rec tennis thing. Anyone can strike the ball good and effective. Ain't like high level or pro's where a short ball gets punished.

The MEP on TT would probably kick most people's ass any day or night.

MEP keeps getting mentioned, as 1 outlier making a living with slices on the 4.5 tour, while the other 99% play convetional strokes, is the proof of what?

 

[user92626]

MEP keeps getting mentioned, as 1 outlier making a living with slices on the 4.5 tour, while the other 99% play convetional strokes, is the proof of what?

What you mean "1 outlier"?

I just told you guys that there's another player like that in my group and he's above almost all. As competitor don't we want to be the best and not just one of 99%?

See, that's another different btw you and mean. You're run of the mill while I look for the exceptional, the real edge.

 

[10sbeast888]

What you mean "1 outlier"?

I just told you guys that there's another player like that in my group and he's above almost all. As competitor don't we want to be the best and not just one of 99%?

See, that's another different btw you and mean. You're run of the mill while I look for the exceptional, the real edge.

your current behavior resembles that of a flea.

 

[user92626]

your current behavior resembles that of a flea.

I knew you couldn't stay civil for long. In no time you'll revert back to your ahole nature.

 

[Fintft]

Split steps give a physical advantage, your guy is using cue recognition to obtain an intellectual advantage. Actually, if he did split step, it wouldn't work since he's initiating his first step before the traditional split step lands.

Even if it's a small hop ss?

 

[Fintft]

I see. Let me try that.

I think my biggest weakness at the moment is my slow reaction (first step). Somehow my mind keeps doing the energy conservation thing and only makes me run just enough, but then it is late when opponent manages to hit a good shot!

The correct method is always an explosive, early first step -- even if you become early which is ok.

Tell me how you guys process intercepting the ball the hit.

Fast racquet prep is essential against harder shots. And spacing.

Of course low, wide, athletic position and ss.

 

[user92626]

Fast racquet prep is essential against harder shots. And spacing.

Of course low, wide, athletic position and ss.

Right on. I kinda found that out today!!!

I tried all sorts of timings and cues and I just got more confused. In the end I just told myself hell... I'll just get the racket back before the bounce and be done with it...and it worked.

(I constantly run into timing problem cuz I played with very wide range of opponents. From old men to younger guys and they all hit very different balls)

 

[Fintft]

Right on. I kinda found that out today!!!

I tried all sorts of timings and cues and I just got more confused. In the end I just told myself hell... I'll just get the racket back before the bounce and be done with it...and it worked.

(I constantly run into timing problem cuz I played with very wide range of opponents. From old men to younger guys and they all hit very different balls)

You had quoted my coach on it, last week though....
Tip: take it back in less than 1s.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

I'll just get the racket back before the bounce and be done with it...and it worked.

SS, prep / takeback, move into position

Always in that order with few exceptions, like having to sprint to a drop shot or something.
Moment you see ball goes to FH or BH => prep then move into position.

As a rule of thumb, by the time the ball bounces you should aim to be in position, ready to swing forward.

 

[Curious]

Moment you see ball goes to FH or BH => prep then move into position.

It’s amazing that you only have a second for all that. No wonder it’s such a hard sport to master.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

It’s amazing that you only have a second for all that.

Yeah it's insanely fast when you think about it.
Hence why anticipation, learning to read the game and efficient movement is so important.

 

[user92626]

SS, prep / takeback, move into position

Always in that order with few exceptions, like having to sprint to a drop shot or something.
Moment you see ball goes to FH or BH => prep then move into position.

As a rule of thumb, by the time the ball bounces you should aim to be in position, ready to swing forward.

Good reminder.

U know, after yrs of playing I know all of that but strangely I can never remember all of it at any time.

I remember and implement something & forget n drop something else. Rinse & repeat.



Question about this "Moment you see ball goes to FH or BH => prep then move into position."

Prep means the upper body, arm turn first and independently of the feet, right? The feet then move into position, right?

 

[Curious]

Prep means the upper body, arm turn first and independently of the feet, right? The feet then move into position, right?

It looks like they’re happening simultaneously straight after completion of split step.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

Good reminder.

U know, after yrs of playing I know all of that but strangely I can never remember all of it at any time.

I remember and implement something & forget n drop something else. Rinse & repeat.



Question about this "Moment you see ball goes to FH or BH => prep then move into position."

Prep means the upper body, arm turn first and independently of the feet, right? The feet then move into position, right?

He explains it very well and shows it in point 4" moving to the ball".

I'ld recommend watching it in full thougj

 

[user92626]

@Curious @Fintft

He explains it very well and shows it in point 4" moving to the ball".

I'ld recommend watching it in full thougj

Very nice!

I'm watching AO highlight to see footwork patterns. It appears that these elite players hit their FHs off their "FH-side" foot alot. In other words, they rarely step in/forward and hit it off the other foot!

This is interesting to me because I see a lot of rally-only clips or instructionals where hitters step forward, which seems easier and more power for ...recreational players. ie the linear shift.

But elite pro's use open stance alot and rotate like crazy or there won't be power. We have to understand this because we have to run and arrive at that stance and loading and unloading.

 

[Curious]

@Curious @Fintft

Very nice!

I'm watching AO highlight to see footwork patterns. It appears that these elite players hit their FHs off their "FH-side" foot alot. In other words, they rarely step in/forward and hit it off the other foot!

This is interesting to me because I see a lot of rally-only clips or instructionals where hitters step forward, which seems easier and more power for ...recreational players. ie the linear shift.

But elite pro's use open stance alot and rotate like crazy or there won't be power. We have to understand this because we have to run and arrive at that stance and loading and unloading.

I guess recovery is faster that way, because the outside foot is ready to push back towards the centre.

 

[user92626]

I guess recovery is faster that way, because the outside foot is ready to push back towards the centre.

I see.

For me stepping and pivoting with the outside foot lets me measure the spacing with the ball easier!

Check out this point. Alcaraz finished the point running forward but still pivoting on his right foot. Interesting.

Reason why I bring up this topic is I tend to hit my FH off of only 1 foot (the other foot) which I realized is very restrictive and I am off a lot (awkward positioning).

 

[Curious]

I see.

For me stepping and pivoting with the outside foot lets me measure the spacing with the ball easier!

Check out this point. Alcaraz finished the point running forward but still pivoting on his right foot. Interesting.

Reason why I bring up this topic is I tend to hit my FH off of only 1 foot (the other foot) which I realized is very restrictive and I am off a lot (awkward positioning).

You’re right. If you pivot nicely it’s the same finish as semi open stance.

 

[Rosstour]

Another thing that kills me and others is while we're concerned about FH strokes, etc, he seemingly just does anything he can (various-looking strokes) to get the ball in play--more obvious with difficult balls. He's not so concerned about forms. And he gets a great deal of balls back.

Yeah. Beast has been trying to tell you this, and you told him you’d rather smear yourself in excrement than take one bit of his advice.

He also said that in the modern game, a majority of FHs are hit off the back/outside/hitting foot, but you couldn’t hear through the layer of excrement so you’re just now figuring this out

 

[user92626]

Look at this shot. You would think that Alcaraz would shift to his left foot, which is how me and @Curious hit -- alot --, but no he still pivots on the right foot as he swings.

I'm learning this hitting stance to be more flexible.

 

[user92626]

And just like I said previously in post 170, when they rally they shift and pivot to front (left) foot. The very same guy. LOL.

This is why I got confused. I rally/practice one way. I cannot hit different way in matches.

Forward to 2:40

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

@Curious @Fintft

Very nice!

I'm watching AO highlight to see footwork patterns. It appears that these elite players hit their FHs off their "FH-side" foot alot. In other words, they rarely step in/forward and hit it off the other foot!

This is interesting to me because I see a lot of rally-only clips or instructionals where hitters step forward, which seems easier and more power for ...recreational players. ie the linear shift.

But elite pro's use open stance alot and rotate like crazy or there won't be power. We have to understand this because we have to run and arrive at that stance and loading and unloading.

It depends. Opens stance idd gives you more time, both at the ball and for recovery. So it is the go-to option for higher pace baseline rallies, especially on wide balls.

Stepping in on short balls, semi open or closed are good options. You generally have more time there and gives you more forward momentum.

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

Look at this shot. You would think that Alcaraz would shift to his left foot, which is how me and @Curious hit -- alot --, but no he still pivots on the right foot as he swings.

I'm learning this hitting stance to be more flexible.

Key words pivot, weight pretty much on 1 foot or the other put in more even and you can't pivot the pelvis blocks you.

Road to pro has a video that introduces that idea, then look at some of pros and you will see it's basically 1 foot you pivot around and it can be either.

Give him chance he keeps distracting himself with his own thoughts in his delivery but it's usually worth the wait.

For footwork they're generally arranging their feet to land on the foot they next want to push off from if they can whilst pivoting to maintain shot quality.

A lot more open stance due to time pressure closed, semi or open are used situationally.

While we're at it net clearance usually more than most people realise again court position and shot intent affect it. Inside the court on offence it's going to be low, on defence they're usually giving themselves time in neutral giving themselves margin whilst still trying to force weaker balls to attack

 

[user92626]

Key words pivot, weight pretty much on 1 foot or the other put in more even and you can't pivot the pelvis blocks you.

Road to pro has a video that introduces that idea, then look at some of pros and you will see it's basically 1 foot you pivot around and it can be either.

Give him chance he keeps distracting himself with his own thoughts in his delivery but it's usually worth the wait.

For footwork they're generally arranging their feet to land on the foot they next want to push off from if they can whilst pivoting to maintain shot quality.

A lot more open stance due to time pressure closed, semi or open are used situationally.

While we're at it net clearance usually more than most people realise again court position and shot intent affect it. Inside the court on offence it's going to be low, on defence they're usually giving themselves time in neutral giving themselves margin whilst still trying to force weaker balls to attack

Thank you. A gem of a post!

Re the green part, that's confirmation for my recent realization/learning.

The vid is very worth a few viewings (for me!). Funny in my early days I was intuitively hitting with the opposite leg lifting like the coach advocates here, and the guys at the court branded it as a dog peeing style!!!

Something we can just learn intuitively because it's natural but then there's things we just drop / forget naturally also. As the coach says what we focus on changes depending on our levels. So true!

 

[dlam]

Playing other sports I learn that for myself I like to take an initial small step with my left foot then hop as my own natural split step pattern. I think it’s the pattern from learned early hop scotch as a child
I do practice the right foot initial step pattern then hop but not my preferred rhythm but I will use when not rushed or as accessory shot making

 

[user92626]

Playing other sports I learn that for myself I like to take an initial small step with my left foot then hop as my own natural split step pattern. I think it’s the pattern from learned early hop scotch as a child
I do practice the right foot initial step pattern then hop but not my preferred rhythm but I will use when not rushed or as accessory shot making

I have a friend who played soccer and he picked up tennis fast. His strokes are average but his footwork, movements and especially reactive skill is better than average and thus makes him better than average.

Then he moved onto Pickleball and got really good. I don't know why/how. He's a second person like that. The other guy like him sucked at tennis cuz he was all "arm" with the strokes but he's now excellent at PB.

 

[Rosstour]

Playing other sports I learn that for myself I like to take an initial small step with my left foot then hop as my own natural split step pattern. I think it’s the pattern from learned early hop scotch as a child
I do practice the right foot initial step pattern then hop but not my preferred rhythm but I will use when not rushed or as accessory shot making

Are you right handed? So you move the left foot first? Which way does it go if you’re covering a forehand?

 

[dlam]

Are you right handed? So you move the left foot first? Which way does it go if you’re covering a forehand?

Yea I play best when I don’t overthink
For me it’s more natural when I turn and pivot with my left leg My reaction time is quicker.
I tend to take small squeaky steps to my forehand.

 

[dlam]

Are you right handed? So you move the left foot first? Which way does it go if you’re covering a forehand?

I’m more coordinated when I start my jump off my left foot.

 

[Rosstour]

I’m more coordinated when I start my jump off my left foot.

Oh ok. I am too. I think most right side dominant people are

 

[dlam]

Oh ok. I am too. I think most right side dominant people are

The odd thing is I have better balance and coordination when I balance on right leg compared to the left leg I feel more power and ground pressure with my right leg particularly swinging a golf club

 

[liimey86]

Look at this shot. You would think that Alcaraz would shift to his left foot, which is how me and @Curious hit -- alot --, but no he still pivots on the right foot as he swings.

I'm learning this hitting stance to be more flexible.

In that particular shot, it looks like Alcaraz either chooses to - or the specific ball hit at him requires him to - throw his body weight backward into his back foot, in loading for the forehand. To me, even though his feet are oriented in a semi-open looking stance, this dynamic weighting makes it a kind of "hybrid" open stance hit.

ETC: On that topic .. Are there agreed definitions re open vs. semi-open stance - that reference not just the relative foot positions, but also include where the (static or dynamic) weight balances are?

 

[user92626]

On that topic .. Are there clear agreed definitions re open vs. semi-open stance? Do they reference not just the relative foot positions, but also include where the (static or dynamic) weight balances are?

 

[10sbeast888]

wow a rare (somewhat) useful poast!

 

[Curious]

In that picture the right foot being completely parallel to the baseline is very uncomfortably wrong.

 

[user92626]

In that picture the right foot being completely parallel to the baseline is very uncomfortably wrong.

It could work, especially for pros and ..true athletes.

For us rec players... most things are very uncomfortable. I'm not bashing us rec players like that elder Beastman @10sbeast888 at all. We're just not flexible.

wow a rare (somewhat) useful poast!

It's VERY USEFUL especially if you haven't seen it. I am sensing a little negative vibe from you lately and i'm getting a bit tired, mister.

 

[user92626]

Let's talk footwork and stances.

It's tricky for those of us with less than perfect knees, legs. I think we tend to get into neutral or almost neutral and shift from back to front as we swing as opposed to rotating our swing from right to left (for rightie.)

@Curious you are playing most of the time in near neutral stance, I noticed.

 

[10sbeast888]

Let's talk footwork and stances.

It's tricky for those of us with less than perfect knees, legs. I think we tend to get into neutral or almost neutral and shift from back to front as we swing as opposed to rotating our swing from right to left (for rightie.)

@Curious you are playing most of the time in near neutral stance, I noticed.

That’s backwards thinking. Train the hand first. The rest of the body serves the hand.

 

[Curious]

It could work, especially for pros and ..true athletes.

For us rec players... most things are very uncomfortable. I'm not bashing us rec players like that elder Beastman @10sbeast888 at all. We're just not flexible.

It's VERY USEFUL especially if you haven't seen it. I am sensing a little negative vibe from you lately and i'm getting a bit tired, mister.

Almost always a little angled into the court.

 

[Curious]

@Curious you are playing most of the time in near neutral stance, I noticed.

Mostly semi open it seems.

 

[user92626]

Mostly semi open it seems.

Nice hitting, playing, bud.

Guess what. I found like ground strokes it's also hard to change my hitting stances. Not even the last step before the setup.

Im deciding whether worth it to do new stances.

I might just stick with my comfortable near neutral stance.

 

[Curious]

Nice hitting, playing, bud.

Guess what. I found like ground strokes it's also hard to change my hitting stances. Not even the last step before the setup.

Im deciding whether worth it to do new stances.

I might just stick with my comfortable near neutral stance.

I'm sure if Federer had the chance he would hit every forehand with neutral stance.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

wow a rare (somewhat) useful poast!

Uncalled for

 

[enishi1357]

Serve and volley definitely need split step. S and v made me realize my footwork was really bad because I played better playing at baseline when my style is naturally better at net.

 

[user92626]

Serve and volley definitely need split step. S and v made me realize my footwork was really bad because I played better playing at baseline when my style is naturally better at net.

I kinda have a similarity. I play much better at the baseline than at the net but I can't stand staying back n not going to the net in dubs. It feels so weird.

Everything is faster at the net. I wonder if our struggle at the net is due to fitness.

If you're light n 100% active, SS or volley will not be an issue. I believe.