Why the ATP forehand is superior.

[a12345]

There have been a few threads about what is an ATP forehand, and what does the racket lag do, do we snap the wrist etc.

Well this will summarise perhaps the main reason why the ATP forehand is a superior technique to hit the ball.

The clarify the confusion as well for some, an "ATP forehand" its just the name of a technique for hitting the forehand and has nothing to do with if youre an ATP player or not. A 7 year old girl can use an ATP forehand.

The reason why the ATP forehand is a superior technique is it allows you to isolate and control the forward and vertical elements of the forehand stroke.

So with the ATP forehand:

The legs and trunk rotation controls the horizontal/forward racket acceleration.

The internal shoulder rotation controls the vertical racket acceleration.

When we talk about racket lag, contrary to popular belief, this does not help hit the ball forward with more power but instead helps with vertical acceleration i.e topspin. This is because racket lag is simply loading up your internal shoulder rotation.

As a result you can control the ball horizontally and vertically, independent of one another.

To hit the ball forward with power you rotate your legs, trunk and body.

To hit the ball with topspin you use internal shoulder rotation. Racket lag loads your shoulder.

You can therefore control how much forward motion and how much topspin you want to implant onto the ball.

The traditional (WTA) forehand doesnt allow you to isolate these two variables. You can either hit the ball very hard, or hit the ball with a lot of topspin but you cant control both.

With the ATP forehand technique, you can.

 

[travlerajm]

So what you are saying is that the ATP forehand creates more variables in the swing? No wonder the young guys with ATP forehands are struggling.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

I would point to Andy Murray who is ATP above the hips but WTA in the lower body (closed and little torque) and also Guga Kuerten, who has an early wrist set (supposedly a WTA quality!?!) But has massive torque from the lower body, to question the usefulness of this distinction.

The analysis is somewhat helpful, but the conclusions not whatsoever!

 

[travlerajm]

I would point to Andy Murray who is ATP above the hips but WTA in the lower body (closed and little torque) and also Guga Kuerten, who has an early wrist set (supposedly a WTA quality!?!) But has massive torque from the lower body, to question the usefulness of this distinction.

The analysis is somewhat helpful, but the conclusions not whatsoever!

But Kuerten is from a completely different era with obsolete strokes. Put him head-to-head against Federer in Federer's peak prime and he'd get crushed... oh, wait...

 

[Curious]

When we talk about racket lag, contrary to popular belief, this does not help hit the ball forward with more power but instead helps with vertical acceleration i.e topspin. This is because racket lag is simply loading up your internal shoulder rotation.

I have doubts. How did you come up with this conclusion? I hope you're not a physicist!

 

[Vanhalen]

There have been a few threads about what is an ATP forehand, and what does the racket lag do, do we snap the wrist etc.

Well this will summarise perhaps the main reason why the ATP forehand is a superior technique to hit the ball.

The clarify the confusion as well for some, an "ATP forehand" its just the name of a technique for hitting the forehand and has nothing to do with if youre an ATP player or not. A 7 year old girl can use an ATP forehand.

The reason why the ATP forehand is a superior technique is it allows you to isolate and control the forward and vertical elements of the forehand stroke.

So with the ATP forehand:

The legs and trunk rotation controls the horizontal/forward racket acceleration.

The internal shoulder rotation controls the vertical racket acceleration.

When we talk about racket lag, contrary to popular belief, this does not help hit the ball forward with more power but instead helps with vertical acceleration i.e topspin. This is because racket lag is simply loading up your internal shoulder rotation.

As a result you can control the ball horizontally and vertically, independent of one another.

To hit the ball forward with power you rotate your legs, trunk and body.

To hit the ball with topspin you use internal shoulder rotation. Racket lag loads your shoulder.

You can therefore control how much forward motion and how much topspin you want to implant onto the ball.

The traditional (WTA) forehand doesnt allow you to isolate these two variables. You can either hit the ball very hard, or hit the ball with a lot of topspin but you cant control both.

With the ATP forehand technique, you can.

See ball coming
Run to ball
Hit ball into opposing court

See ball coming
Run to ball
Hit ball into opposing court

Repeat

 

[Knox]

Spot on analysis.

Simple, clear, concise, accurate, grounded in kinesiological fact.

I hope to see more from you.

 

[styksnstryngs]

I like to tennis

I tennis very often

Tennis is real fun

 

[philosoup]

There have been a few threads about what is an ATP forehand, and what does the racket lag do, do we snap the wrist etc.

When we talk about racket lag, contrary to popular belief, this does not help hit the ball forward with more power but instead helps with vertical acceleration i.e topspin. This is because racket lag is simply loading up your internal shoulder rotation.

Not true. You can direct it to power the forward motion. All that matters is how you control it.

You can therefore control how much forward motion and how much topspin you want to implant onto the ball.

The traditional (WTA) forehand doesnt allow you to isolate these two variables. You can either hit the ball very hard, or hit the ball with a lot of topspin but you cant control both.
With the ATP forehand technique, you can.

Again I don't believe this is the case. You can use WTA style and still create plenty of lag and control for separately tuning topspin and forward power, just not as explosive as ATP FH. If you'd particularly look into maximizing independent control, Fed's forehand is certainly the best one.

 

[onehandbh]

I would point to Andy Murray who is ATP above the hips but WTA in the lower body

Richard Raskind switched from ATP to WTA (below the hips).

 

[FiReFTW]

I disagree with pretty much everything OP said, he clearly does not understand how the ATP forehand works.

 

[a12345]

I have doubts. How did you come up with this conclusion? I hope you're not a physicist!

Is not my conclusion , is basically an explanation of what happens from Brian Gordon and Rick Macci.

They anaylsed the motions of 1000's of tennis players and put them into a 3d model to see what was going on. i.e theyre not coming up with the idea, they analyse whats happening in the stroke that the pros use and then explain the mechanics of what is going on.

Starts with a summary of the different techniques. Type 3 = ATP forehand.

10:35 -Partitioning of the stroke.

15:56 - Vertical acceleration comes from internal shoulder rotation, not pronation of the forearm or the wrist.

18:55 - Explains why internal shoulder rotation in the WTA forehand creates a forward motion for power instead of vertical acceleration (which is what happens in the ATP forehand)

27:09 - Why the racket flip creates vertical acceleration

 

[Curious]

Is not my conclusion , is basically an explanation of what happens from Brian Gordon and Rick Macci.

They anaylsed the motions of 1000's of tennis players and put them into a 3d model so see what was going on. i.e theyre not coming up with the idea, they analyse whats happening in the stroke that the pros use and then explain the mechanics of what is going on.

Starts with a summary of the different techniques. Type 3 = ATP forehand.

10:35 -Partitioning of the stroke.

15:56 - Vertical acceleration comes from internal shoulder rotation, not pronation of the forearm or the wrist.

18:55 - Explains why internal shoulder rotation in the WTA forehand creates a forward motion for power instead of vertical acceleration (which is what happens in the ATP forehand)

27:09 - Why the racket flip creates vertical acceleration

Yes, I watched the relevant part in the video where Brian Gordon says that the flip contributes to vertical accelaration, not the horizontal and he is simply wrong! Why? Because the racket during the flip does not only go down as he claims but also goes backwards and while it swings forward, obviously adds to horizontal acceleration as well. He must have obtained his PhD in Poland!

 

[a12345]

Yes, I watched the relevant part in the video where Brian Gordon says that the flip contributes to vertical accelaration, not the horizontal and he is simply wrong! Why? Because the racket during the flip does not only go down as he claims but also goes backwards and while it swings forward, obviously adds to horizontal acceleration as well. He must have obtained his PhD in Poland!

I think its better to think of the lag as a by product of rapid body rotation, however the arm position you take up during the swing, is you loading up for internal shoulder rotation, to create vertical acceleration and topspin.

At some point the forward motion must decelerate (at the contact point) for the racket head to catch up, or the racket would just lag forever.

 

[Dragy]

At some point the forward motion must decelerate (at the contact point) for the racket head to catch up, or the racket would just lag forever.

Please take into consideration that forward component of hand/handle speed has a pretty natural point of deceleration - where arm reaches max extention to the side and (being attached to the body) accelerates accross. If we started the stroke at shoulder level, that would be from straight to the side. But since we swing low to to high the hand still moves away (lifting) from the rotation axis (spine) while passing that perpendicular line, and only reaches max distance from the axis before actual contact - The-in-front-we-all-praise.

 

[Dragy]

ISR contribution to forward/upward speed actually depends on the grip. Just test it. Grip Eastern, extend the wrist and spread fingers to get federeresque lag. Rotate arm internally, check what happens with the racquet face. Now grip full western. Lay back is by radiant deviation. Rotate your arm internally - it’s pure “on-plane” now.

 

[PMChambers]

The advantage of the modern ATP FH is increased topspin generation achieved through increase racquet head speed vertically through more joint rotation (sometimrd horribly called kenetic chain}.
Whether this is an advantage or not comes back to if you need more topspin or not.
The negative side is it requires more motions to work to get greater head speed so timing is more problematic.
WTA don't struggle to control power and generally they're not pushed for time so probably safer to have more consistent stroke hitting through the ball much like the pre modern {<2000} ATP FH.

 

[toby55555]

I suspect older male club players coming from old school coaching may be better off with a more WTA type swing for consistency.

 

[rkelley]

@a12345 , thanks for the thread, the thoughts, and the Brian Gordon video with time markers that you posted.

I'm going to disagree with your general conclusion in the original post as well as some of the sub-points that you made (as well as disagreeing with Brian Gordon's thoughts too, which I realize puts me on shaky ground).

Generally, I think the big advantage to the ATP fh is that it allows you generate high racket head speed with a very compact back swing. That's important for two reasons:

• Allows you to quickly set-up and respond to high speed incoming balls (i.e. less time to set-up)
• Allows you to more reliably contact the incoming ball with a swing that is taking a substantially different path than the incoming ball (necessary for any spin)

Focusing on that second point (reliable contact), to create topspin (ts) the racquet has to have a component in its trajectory that is normal (right angle) to the path of the incoming ball. For big ts that component has to be large. But a large, normal component to the racquet's swing means that racquet's path is crossing the ball's path at a very steep angle. Where the two paths cross is the only place where you can contact ball, and the bigger that upward component is the harder it's going to be to get the racquet and the ball to intersect.

If you have a swing that allows you to generate a lot of racquet speed quickly, then it's going to be easier to target that intersection point between the racquet and the ball.

Regarding the general swing, I don't think you can isolate the upward and through components so completely. Generally you're swinging the edge of the racquet across the ball's path in an upward direction to hit the ball and create ts. The special thing about the ATP/modern fh is that the racquet head speed is created mostly by allowing the racquet to get perpendicular to the arm (lay back) in a fairly low powered motion and then (for lack of a better term) pulling on the racquet so that the lay back is released and the racquet whips forward. You're really "slinging" the racquet in a controlled way. It's primarily a conservation of angular momentum effect that generates the the fast acceleration and high velocity.

For the wrist and shoulder rotation (ISR) it's pretty passive. You are NOT driving those motions actively, and there's not much if any stretch shortening. You're just allowing the motion to happen. When you doing this all correctly it's amazing how relaxed your arm and whole upper body can be while you're just wailing on the ball.

I agree that if you drive your shoulders through the contact zone you'll swing more through the ball, but you have to be careful about having too much body motion at contact (messes with the contact point) and driving the ball long I think. I think it's better to think about whipping the racquet into the ball and having a relatively still and quiet body near contact to make sure you actually hit the ball cleanly.

The WTA swing has a lot longer wind up time than the ATP swing. The racquet head travels a longer path before contact. You can generate a lot of forward racquet head speed and hit the ball really hard, but that longer path is going to make it more difficult to swing on a path that's substantially different than the ball's path (which is necessary to create the big spin) and also achieve contact. A lot less whip, a lot more driving the racquet straight into the ball.

 

[2ndServe]

But Kuerten is from a completely different era with obsolete strokes. Put him head-to-head against Federer in Federer's peak prime and he'd get crushed... oh, wait...

So obsolete that Kuerten after major surgeries and a hip surgery or two and probably near retirement. Straight set Fed in 2004 when Fed was pretty dominant.

 

[GuyClinch]

Listen to rkelly has one of the best ATP style forehands on this board IMHO.

The problem - OP - is that you can use internal shoulder rotation and legs trunk on WTA forehand as well. I hate to break it to people but the strokes really aren't THAT different. Basically it boils down to relaxed wrist - and outside set up vs. inside setup and pre-loading the wrist..

Was watching a little of this lady on the tennis channel..

Loaded wrist - more inside set up. WTA.

But still legs trunk for power and internal rotation for spin..

Where almost EVERY SINGLE POSTER on this board with a WTA forehand gets it wrong is that they imagine it so much easier to hit like Vekic then say Fed. It's hard either way if you want to put stick on the ball.

In short Macci is right - and was right a number of years ago. But its not magic. If you suck you will suck with either kind of forehand.

It's like pitching. If you can throw hard sidearm - you can learn to throw hard overhand. Both ways work - but its hard either way to pitch in the bigs.

 

[FiReFTW]

@a12345 , thanks for the thread, the thoughts, and the Brian Gordon video with time markers that you posted.

I'm going to disagree with your general conclusion in the original post as well as some of the sub-points that you made (as well as disagreeing with Brian Gordon's thoughts too, which I realize puts me on shaky ground).

Generally, I think the big advantage to the ATP fh is that it allows you generate high racket head speed with a very compact back swing. That's important for two reasons:

• Allows you to quickly set-up and respond to high speed incoming balls (i.e. less time to set-up)
• Allows you to more reliably contact the incoming ball with a swing that is taking a substantially different path than the incoming ball (necessary for any spin)

Focusing on that second point (reliable contact), to create topspin (ts) the racquet has to have a component in its trajectory that is normal (right angle) to the path of the incoming ball. For big ts that component has to be large. But a large, normal component to the racquet's swing means that racquet's path is crossing the ball's path at a very steep angle. Where the two paths cross is the only place where you can contact ball, and the bigger that upward component is the harder it's going to be to get the racquet and the ball to intersect.

If you have a swing that allows you to generate a lot of racquet speed quickly, then it's going to be easier to target that intersection point between the racquet and the ball.

Regarding the general swing, I don't think you can isolate the upward and through components so completely. Generally you're swinging the edge of the racquet across the ball's path in an upward direction to hit the ball and create ts. The special thing about the ATP/modern fh is that the racquet head speed is created mostly by allowing the racquet to get perpendicular to the arm (lay back) in a fairly low powered motion and then (for lack of a better term) pulling on the racquet so that the lay back is released and the racquet whips forward. You're really "slinging" the racquet in a controlled way. It's primarily a conservation of angular momentum effect that generates the the fast acceleration and high velocity.

For the wrist and shoulder rotation (ISR) it's pretty passive. You are NOT driving those motions actively, and there's not much if any stretch shortening. You're just allowing the motion to happen. When you doing this all correctly it's amazing how relaxed your arm and whole upper body can be while you're just wailing on the ball.

I agree that if you drive your shoulders through the contact zone you'll swing more through the ball, but you have to be careful about having too much body motion at contact (messes with the contact point) and driving the ball long I think. I think it's better to think about whipping the racquet into the ball and having a relatively still and quiet body near contact to make sure you actually hit the ball cleanly.

The WTA swing has a lot longer wind up time than the ATP swing. The racquet head travels a longer path before contact. You can generate a lot of forward racquet head speed and hit the ball really hard, but that longer path is going to make it more difficult to swing on a path that's substantially different than the ball's path (which is necessary to create the big spin) and also achieve contact. A lot less whip, a lot more driving the racquet straight into the ball.

Brilliant post!

 

[5263]

@a12345 , thanks for the thread, the thoughts, and the Brian Gordon video with time markers that you posted.

I'm going to disagree with your general conclusion in the original post as well as some of the sub-points that you made (as well as disagreeing with Brian Gordon's thoughts too, which I realize puts me on shaky ground).

Generally, I think the big advantage to the ATP fh is that it allows you generate high racket head speed with a very compact back swing. That's important for two reasons:

• Allows you to quickly set-up and respond to high speed incoming balls (i.e. less time to set-up)
• Allows you to more reliably contact the incoming ball with a swing that is taking a substantially different path than the incoming ball (necessary for any spin)

If you have a swing that allows you to generate a lot of racquet speed quickly, then it's going to be easier to target that intersection point between the racquet and the ball.

The WTA swing has a lot longer wind up time than the ATP swing. The racquet head travels a longer path before contact. You can generate a lot of forward racquet head speed and hit the ball really hard, but that longer path is going to make it more difficult to swing on a path that's substantially different than the ball's path (which is necessary to create the big spin) and also achieve contact. A lot less whip, a lot more driving the racquet straight into the ball.

So glad to see your post, as I was getting disappointed about what confusion still prevails about the ATP Fh. As you said, the hitting of the ball part just isn't that different between the ATP when compared to the WTA. The big difference is how the ATP Fh can use the swivel action to the lag for a faster Response time while staying on the line to contact much better. All this adds up to a far superior technique for dealing with the hot rising balls that are so common on the ATP tour.

 

[Knox]

The special thing about the ATP/modern fh is that the racquet head speed is created mostly by allowing the racquet to get perpendicular to the arm (lay back) in a fairly low powered motion and then (for lack of a better term) pulling on the racquet so that the lay back is released and the racquet whips forward. You're really "slinging" the racquet in a controlled way. It's primarily a conservation of angular momentum effect that generates the the fast acceleration and high velocity.

For the wrist and shoulder rotation (ISR) it's pretty passive. You are NOT driving those motions actively, and there's not much if any stretch shortening. You're just allowing the motion to happen.

Layback is a byproduct of pulling the hand and dragging the racquet. It's not a separate motion from the forward/upward acceleration of the hand. The racquet 'whipping forward' is caused by changing the direction of the forward swing and converting it into an up-and-back pull. Like when you whip a wet towel, you swing it forward first and then at the perfect moment you pull it back to get the tip to accelerate. This up-and-back pull includes internal forearm and shoulder rotation, and it can include a stretch-shorten cycle if the lift and rotation is initiated by shoulder rotation (kinetic chain...)

 

[a12345]

@a12345 , thanks for the thread, the thoughts, and the Brian Gordon video with time markers that you posted.

I'm going to disagree with your general conclusion in the original post as well as some of the sub-points that you made (as well as disagreeing with Brian Gordon's thoughts too, which I realize puts me on shaky ground).

Generally, I think the big advantage to the ATP fh is that it allows you generate high racket head speed with a very compact back swing. That's important for two reasons:

• Allows you to quickly set-up and respond to high speed incoming balls (i.e. less time to set-up)
• Allows you to more reliably contact the incoming ball with a swing that is taking a substantially different path than the incoming ball (necessary for any spin)

Focusing on that second point (reliable contact), to create topspin (ts) the racquet has to have a component in its trajectory that is normal (right angle) to the path of the incoming ball. For big ts that component has to be large. But a large, normal component to the racquet's swing means that racquet's path is crossing the ball's path at a very steep angle. Where the two paths cross is the only place where you can contact ball, and the bigger that upward component is the harder it's going to be to get the racquet and the ball to intersect.

If you have a swing that allows you to generate a lot of racquet speed quickly, then it's going to be easier to target that intersection point between the racquet and the ball.

Regarding the general swing, I don't think you can isolate the upward and through components so completely. Generally you're swinging the edge of the racquet across the ball's path in an upward direction to hit the ball and create ts. The special thing about the ATP/modern fh is that the racquet head speed is created mostly by allowing the racquet to get perpendicular to the arm (lay back) in a fairly low powered motion and then (for lack of a better term) pulling on the racquet so that the lay back is released and the racquet whips forward. You're really "slinging" the racquet in a controlled way. It's primarily a conservation of angular momentum effect that generates the the fast acceleration and high velocity.

For the wrist and shoulder rotation (ISR) it's pretty passive. You are NOT driving those motions actively, and there's not much if any stretch shortening. You're just allowing the motion to happen. When you doing this all correctly it's amazing how relaxed your arm and whole upper body can be while you're just wailing on the ball.

I agree that if you drive your shoulders through the contact zone you'll swing more through the ball, but you have to be careful about having too much body motion at contact (messes with the contact point) and driving the ball long I think. I think it's better to think about whipping the racquet into the ball and having a relatively still and quiet body near contact to make sure you actually hit the ball cleanly.

The WTA swing has a lot longer wind up time than the ATP swing. The racquet head travels a longer path before contact. You can generate a lot of forward racquet head speed and hit the ball really hard, but that longer path is going to make it more difficult to swing on a path that's substantially different than the ball's path (which is necessary to create the big spin) and also achieve contact. A lot less whip, a lot more driving the racquet straight into the ball.

It is about a faster shorter swing as well they are not mutually exclusive.

But the principle difference between the ATP forehand and the WTA forehand is the ATP forehand seperates the horizontal and vertical elements which you do not get on a WTA forehand.

The racket lag and snap on an ATP forehand contributes to vertical racket acceleration not horizontal. This is what makes it so different and so important. Its why an ATP forehand can achieve greater topspin.

As a result you can control the racket head in 2 directions, forwards and upwards.

In order to achieve a strong topspin ball you must get both horizontal and vertical acceleration onto the ball. If you do not believe that there are 2 components then what sort of swing do you believe can achieve a simultaneous horizontal and vertical stroke.

Without the 2 components, a single smooth stroke cannot achieve significant acceleration in both planes.

You are spinning perpendicular to one another.

One is like a spinning top and the other is like a clock.

 

[RetroSpin]

It's primarily a conservation of angular momentum effect that generates the the fast acceleration and high velocity.

Key point and the difference in an elite Fh and a hacker. Coaches seem to have a hard time teaching it, probably because they don't understand it themselves.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

I'm sorry but who the F is Richard Raskind?

Richard Raskind switched from ATP to WTA (below the hips).

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[RetroSpin]

1:05.

 

[5point5]

Only Siths deal in absolutes.

 

[ChaelAZ]

MODERN forehand that the ATP and WTA players use is currently the preference of most teaching pros, yes.