Why The Grass Is Always Greener For Roger Federer
- Thread starter Mainad
- Start date
beard
Legend
So age don't hurt you just because of age... Nadal maybe slowed down because of injuries, or something else... About Novak and your claim he doesn't depend on his physicality... just lol... Novak declined slower than Nadal which further proves age can't be looked at simple as a number...
beard
Legend
Yes, great, but you should have in mind that time between first and last slam is about the same for Nadal and Federer, with Novak not than behind...
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
I just said Djokovic doesn't depend on his physicality against Federer. He can outmaneuver Fed from the back of the court without wearing him down.
Everyone declines due to age. Nadal's decline was much more pronounced against Federer than Djokovic's was.
In the end of the day, though, Djokovic is just better than Federer in the matchup now. They're both past their primes and Djokovic has developed a clear mental and tactical edge in BO5. This may change as Djokovic gets even older but as things stand now, Djokovic has the matchup advantage. Age does not tell the whole story, but it's still a major factor.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Here is my take:
Federer and Djokovic have always been neck and neck for the most part of their careers. Federer even said something to the effect of "When I am playing Novak, we both just go out there and play our best, and whoever is the better player that day wins." This speaks to how Federer's strategy is generally pretty unchanging against Djokovic. As Federer has aged, though, we have seen his wins over Djokovic drop off in majors.
I contend that this drop is due to his drop in foot speed and lack of consistent power on the forehand, as well as Djokovic raising his level in 2014-2015. Federer used to be able to hang with Djokovic from the baseline, and could do so consistently because of his foot speed (USO 2009, 2010, RG 2011). Specifically in the Wimbledon SF in 2012, Federer's footwork was incredible, and was part of the reason why he was able to defeat Djokovic rather easily.
Djokovic's Slam wins:
1. 2008 Australian Open- Contrary to many members on this forum, I think mono did play a significant part in this loss. It is difficult to say if Federer would have won if he wasn't ill, because Novak played exceptional as well. I'd say the match would have been much closer if mono wasn't a factor, but Djokovic still wins in my opinion.
2. 2010 US Open- As close as a match gets. Djokovic displays mental fortitude, and is able to pull the match out. 2010 is the beginning of Federer's drop in level of play, and the beginning of Djokovic's dominance
3. 2011 AO- peak Djokovic. Federer chokes 1 set, but Djokovic is close to unplayable
4. 2011 USO- Another extremely close match. Novak is again mentally strong.
5. 2012 RG. Federer manages to choke another set, but Djokovic's level is incredible.
6. 2014 Wimbledon- Federer serves very well, but Djokovic can hang with him from the baseline. Takes advantage of a slight drop from Federer at the end of the fifth.
5. 2015 Wimbledon- Djokovic Plays incredibly again, Federer works hard to take it to 4
6. 2015 USO Djokovic- Djokovic's level is not exceptionally high, Federer chokes most of it away.
7. 2016 AO- Peak Djokovic, herculean effort by Federer to take it to 4 sets.
8. 2019 Wimbledon- Federer is the superior player for a better part of the match, Djokovic reigns supreme in the tiebreakers.
9. 2020 AO- Injured Fed
Federer's Slam wins:
1. 2007 AO- Peak Federer on HC, Djokovic hasn't fully developed as a player yet.
2. 2007 USO- Federer plays well in the Final, Djokovic is able to make it close with some agressive baseline tennis.
3. 2008 USO- Federer's forehand dictates play through the match, he is able to track down lots of solid shots from Djokovic
4. 2009 USO- Roger plays an exceptional match, especially at the end of all three sets.
5. 2011 RG- One of Federer's best matches on clay, Djokovic displays a very high level, but Federer is able to match him from the baseline
6. 2012 Wimby- Federer's footwork is incredible here and is playing well from the baseline. Drop off from Djokovic at the end.
Djokovic's mental strength helps him in the H2H, but it is overall quite even. Again, I will say that Djokovic got many more chances to play Federer in Novak's peak years, whereas the opposite is not true. Both at the same age would be a delight to watch.
Last edited:
I am really surprised at some of the battles here . Roger deserves a thread for all his grass accomplishments and the first thing that comes up is 40-15 or Novak’s wins in the finals (when Fed was 34,35 and 38 ) within 3-4 posts.
Same with ridiculing Rafa by comparing with Murray.
And Novak’s wins attributed to weak era even though he won 8 majors in ultra strong era.
If we behave the same way as we do in this forum, not sure how many friends we will have amongst those who don’t share the same opinions
Same with ridiculing Rafa by comparing with Murray.
And Novak’s wins attributed to weak era even though he won 8 majors in ultra strong era.
If we behave the same way as we do in this forum, not sure how many friends we will have amongst those who don’t share the same opinions
D
Deleted member 744633
Guest
Machan ... most Federer fans live in denial, telling themselves and anyone who'll bother to hear, that at their peaks Federer would obliterate Djokovic. But when intelligent people like you write posts like this, I'm left with no choice but to agree. This is an outstanding post and the closest to reality
My opinion is that Djokovic would come out on top more often because while their play is evenly matched, Djokovic possesses superior mental strength and that'll make the difference.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
How is that ridiculing Rafa?
Nothing against Andy, but they don’t belong in the same sentence
Mainad
Bionic Poster
They certainly do on grass (which is what this thread is about).
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I really don't think age was an issue in 2010, 2011 and 2012, especially considering Federer's level and he wasn't what you call an early bloomer. I think it was after that that Djokovic clearly had an advantage, as he entered his second peak and Federer was even more considerably past his.
D
Deleted member 744633
Guest
Machi, I understand that this argument can be twisted either way and I won't deny I like to twist it in Djokovic's favor just as you like to twist it in Federer's. That's what fans do and I can live with that.
My objection is when some Federer fan barges in claiming that Djokovic has no chance against a peak Federer.
D
Deleted member 744633
Guest
D
Deleted member 744633
Guest
100% agree with the highlighted part. I wrote something similar just a few minutes ago but hadn't read this post at that time.
Machan, you're writing some unbelievable posts today. I don't know how old you are but you're clearly in your prime
RS
Bionic Poster
Djokovic has no chance vs a peak Federer outside slow HC IMO.
I was referring to the other thread that is on the first page of GPPD
Federev
G.O.A.T.
Hmmm...So many stats/facts one could offer to show Fed was past his peak in those years, and it's obvious that once that happens age will always favor Novak. But its an endless discussion innumerated countless times on TTW without much in the way of changing anyone's mind - and thus only incurring more arguing.
So I'll decline further on it. Peace NoleFam - Novak is a great champion! We're agreed about that!
Federev
G.O.A.T.
Of course, Peak Novak has a chance against Peak Federer. These guys are incredible champions and the margins are very slim at their best.
Only sure thing is peak Rafa on clay.
Everywhere else, the big 3 at their peak can trouble one another anywhere.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Not sure which thread you mean but in anything to do with their grasscourt record Murray is very much in the same discussion as Nadal.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I think Federer was past his peak but I don't think his age was a main factor at that point is what I mean, mainly because he bloomed what some would consider late. We're also in agreement that Federer is also an excellent champion.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Imagine Djokovic playing a 32 year old double-digit grand slam champion in the 2024 AO final and playing him to a virtual draw. Now imagine tearing up his legacy for it.
D
Deleted member 772264
Guest
Roger don't need to graze the grass after each and every win at Wimbledon, he's the GOAT of SW19.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Because he sees it from above:
D
Deleted member 744633
Guest
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I don't know what was wring with Fed though in 2010 and 2011. In 2010 he practically donated Djokovic 2 easy sets and in 2011 Fed had consecutive chokes from 2 sets up.
Plus 2010 Fed was the same age as Djokovic in 2016 when he himself started to drop after the FO.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
2006/2007 Federer vs 2011 Djokovic on clay would be very difficult to call. Federer had a better Nadal to deal with, but Djokovic would have been difficult to stop.
This is what I think:
Fast HC (Cincinatti, WTF, Shanghai)- Federer 60-40
Slow HC (AO, IW, Miami)- Djokovic 60-40 ( Djokovic is overall substantially better, but peak Federer on slow HC was a force to be reckoned with)
Up till 2011 Grass- Federer 65-35
Post 2011 Grass- 50-50
Hamburg/Madrid - Federer 60-40
Other clay- Djokovic 60-40
The only clear choice for me here is Federer on fast hard courts. I chose to split the grass because I think 2015 or even 2011 Djokovic has a legitimate shot at taking Roger on slower grass.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, the issue is Fed playing every prime/peak version of Novak while Novak pretty much missed out on 2004, 2005 and 2006.I think Federer was past his peak but I don't think his age was a main factor at that point is what I mean, mainly because he bloomed what some would consider late. We're also in agreement that Federer is also an excellent champion.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
This is true. I have no doubt that Djokovic will continue to produce a high level of tennis into his thirties, but when Federer was able to do so, Novak was there every time. I think its safe to assume that a pre-prime Djokovic would have lost quite a few matches to peak Federer, just as a post-prime Federer lost more often than not to Novak.
It is also important, though, to consider this: Generally, a player's pre-prime years are far worse than their post-prime years, especially ATG players. For example, take this graph: 5x^{3}-3x^{2}. The rate of improvement is very high pre-prime. For example, 2006 Djokovic is far better than 2005 Djokovic and 2007 Djokovic is far better than 2006 Djokovic. So it isn't wise to equate Federer vs Djokovic in 2015 to Federer vs Djokovic in 2005, at least for the purpose of a hypothetical H2H.
The best indication of how they would do against each other peak for peak, in my opinion, is either 2012 Wimbledon SF or 2011 USO SF. I would predict similar scorelines if they met at those tournaments in peak form.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
2011 Wimbledon didn't look like a choke to me though. Tsonga just played like a man possessed. I didn't even think Federer played bad. 2011 USO could qualify as a choke. He had two match points in the 5th at 5-3.
RS
Bionic Poster
I was trying to bait dont worry.
D
Deleted member 629564
Guest
Sephiroth
Hall of Fame
NoleFam's got so much power over Fed fans with 40-15, it's like an instant PTSD arguement ender
Wish my boy Nadal had something of the sort
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
I think 2011 Wimbledon qualifies as a choke, which is, by the way, a term that gets thrown around and misused a lot around here. A choke is when the match is on your racket and you self-destruct. I think, out of all the 40-15s, the Rome 2006 one is the worst choke of them all, but enough of that.
2011 Wimbledon was a choke from Federer because, despite Tsonga's high level, he had many chances to put the match away. He disappeared completely in the 5th where most of us expected him to raise his game the most. I think USO 2009 is another example of this, where he doesn't choose to fight(at least as much as Rafa and Novak) towards the end.
PeoplesChamp
Legend
Total points won %
Fed 55.3% > Djo 54.2%
Games won %
Fed 59.6% > Djo 58.2%
Sets won %
Fed 82.0% > Djo 77.8%
Matches won %
Fed 88.6% > Djo 87.8%
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Thing is, you couldn't help yourself from trashing Fed in your scenario, based on complete guesswork as to Fed's hypothetical. All I did was point out how your attitude would immediately 180 if the roles were reversed, without trashing Djokovic.
Krish0608
G.O.A.T.
Machi, Did you watch the Wimbledon 2012 match between them?
D
Deleted member 744633
Guest
Machan, I did. Stellar play by Federer but I rate FO '11 higher ... Djokovic didn't know what hit him
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I feel like 2008 was the moment when Novak felt he had all the tools to be able to beat Federer in best of 5, but that Federer will always fight. Ever since then, their matches at majors have almost always been engrossing with only a few exceptions. Both players have had big moments.
Novak and Roger mutually benefit each other in my opinion.
The most obvious example is 2019 Wimbledon. The fact that Roger even made the final at his age, playing the type of tennis he did only adds to his legacy (as a Nadal fan I rate the Fed SF performance that year very highly). But in the final, there is something about Novak's mental resilience and ability to execute under pressure that pushes Federer to the absolute limit, and allows us to see the best of him.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea. He wasn't ready in their match before that at the 2007 USO. He let Federer off the hook way too much in that one. I agree though that they have a great, intense rivalry.
I think they bring out the best each other really and it makes for some great shotmaking in their matches. I always felt like Djokovic plays both Federer and Nadal different than he plays everyone else because he knows how great they are and how good he must be to beat them.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Why do you have to insert your dislike of Federer into everything, especially in such a vitriolic way? Everyone has their own likes and dislikes in the sport, yet they still acknowledge others' accomplishments and seek to have a constructive or humorous discussion on this board. You, on the other hand, along with a few other posters, pretend/believe that everyone else on here wants to listen to your hate-filled posts. It's quite sickening, really.
BrokenGears
Semi-Pro
Federer can’t be goat of grass cause 40-15
beard
Legend
I think I'm objective, but understand frustration of Fed fans who are disappointed in what I'm writing... Someone just can't handle the truth... If they are sure I'm wrong why just ignore it...
About quoted post, I just replied in the same manner to one poster...
beard
Legend
Bolded...Yup
We've seen changes in Rafa's game the last couple of years, when he began to slow down. The pure physical battles are probably advantage Djokovic now. This might give us a surprise at Roland Garros. If Novak can hang with Rafa, he may outlast him this time around. The most important thing: Who draws Thiem?
A shame with Wimbledon, but really looking forward to slam tennis again
I'm sure you give Federer too much credits... Rafa and Novak built their game to beat anyone/everyone, Fed was just one victim among many...
Mainad
Bionic Poster
But surely the most distinguished one?
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
This forum seriously has a Federer vs Djokovic obsession. And I mean it is very very serious.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Amazing.
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
Participating in threads like these is depression cubed during Covid.
Some things that bother me:
Some things that bother me:
- People insist on mixing all eras together than then making lists based on stats from very different times. I don't even like comparing Sampras with the Big 3 because tennis was so different. Sampras was pretty much the only guy who was sucking up slam titles then. Agassi's carrer was so much longer, and a lot of his accomplishments finally came when Sampras declined and then retired. Other than those two there were all those clay players, and the 90s were really unpredictable. Even on grass, when Sampras did not win, you never knew who else would win.
- If we mostly look at tennis since 2000, you just see these three monster players, the Big 3, and everything else seems so secondary. Only Murray and Wawrinka sort of broke up the dynasty. I don't know why people automatically assume the Big 3 are THAT much better than everyone else, and that there is not more to the equation than three gigantic talents. But that's too much to go into here.
- Fed was was so incredibly dominant, not only of winning matches and slams, but also in terms of being pretty much "king", while he was on top. Nadal was the only guy breaking through, but mostly on clay, and Fed had every reason in the world to think that his game strategy, training and talent would go on dominating - until it didn't.
- It's not Fed's fault that the two guys who would eventually dethrone him were 5 and 6 years younger, but it definitely impacted his further evolution, making him confident and also complacent. If Novak and Nadal had been the older guys, it's quite possible they would have evolved less, and Fed growing up younger would have been more proactive in changing his game. But it is what it is. He was the older champion, and he did not change his game until almost too late.
- Because of his earlier success, not having anyone to really challenge him routinely off clay, his strategy/game plan was not as well developed, and you can see that in stats. Both Nadal and Djokovic have handled break points better over their careers, and break points tell a huge part of the story. Today, when you watch the Big 3 play each other, you know that Fed is going to give away more big points. I say that as a Fed fan. It's an inconvenient truth. Nadal and Djokovic are more disciplined about handling key points. They know exactly what they need to do and do it. Fed improvises, resulting in brilliant moments, but also in losses like Wimbledon 2019.
- Most of all, almost no one acknowledges the huge advantage of an age difference to the older player, when the older player is under 25, and how much that changes when the older player approaches 30 and passes 30. What happened to Fed is what's supposed to happen. The younger stars reach parity and then dominate. That's always happened in the past unless there were issues like burnout or injuries. The same thing should have happened to Nadal and Joker. They should have dominated aging Fed (although Nadal not so much on fast surfaces because of his clay bias and knees). What Djokovic is doing should be 100% predictable. It's normal. What is not normal is that Nadal and Djokovic have no younger players doing to them what they did to Fed. They have a free ride, and if their fans were fair, they would acknowledge that, just the way fair Fed fans would acknowledge that he was gifted with almost no competition other than Nadal from the end of 2003 through 2007.
Last edited:
MurraysMetalHip
Hall of Fame
Sir Roger has no peer in any part of his life. He truly is the ultimate human being.
Similar threads
