Why there will never be a tennis GOAT

[mike danny]

As things stand now... okay sure, even though his W-L is better on hard court (and also Novak won 10 in 11 years, whereas Federer won 11 in 14 years), it's the number of slam's that matter, according to you. Let's not have any excuses in 2022 then.

Federer has better distribution of HC slams though.

 

[serveandvolley_]

Federer has better distribution of HC slams though.

Now the rules have changed from having a larger number to better distribution, exactly what I meant about excuses. Let's not hear any of that in 2022.

 

[mike danny]

So easy to reveal trolls true colors lmao. Imagine me sitting posting Federer pics thinking I'm making a point against him. What are you 8?

It's ok, some Novak fans have also been hypocrites just like some Fed fans, let it go.

 

[mike danny]

LOL.you might be right!
Coach cahill, Mats and others are saying he went to another level. I actually think he is better than ever. And i am very conservative on these things. Even better than 2011 his court positioning is better than ever. Now lets see if he can continue it. But that AO final was absurd. Nadal is a 17 time major winner!

Number of slams don't determine form on the day.

 

[mike danny]

No way he could be peak at 31.

TT experts know better.

Yeah, he is dealing with so many great young players to expose him.

 

[Bartelby]

Everyone chooses the statistics that suit their argument, and there are no rules against this.

Now the rules have changed from having a larger number to better distribution, exactly what I meant about excuses. Let's not hear any of that in 2022.

 

[mike danny]

Seek help^ if you can't call someone please give me a number so I can alert your family or friends. Mental health is very important.

Or maybe he is just trolling because this is the freaking internet and you shouldn't take things seriously here.

 

[Fiero425]

Now the rules have changed from having a larger number to better distribution, exactly what I meant about excuses. Let's not hear any of that in 2022.

Sounds more of an addition than a change stating facts; Federer, Nole, & Sampras have a much better distribution of MAJORS than Rafa!

 

[mike danny]

Now the rules have changed from having a larger number to better distribution, exactly what I meant about excuses. Let's not hear any of that in 2022.

It's not an excuse. When discussing who is the HC GOAT now or if they are equal in number of slams, distribution is important since there are 2 slams on HC.

6-5 with winning records in the final of both is better than 7-3 with a losing record in the finals of on of the slams.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Or maybe he is just trolling because this is the freaking internet and you shouldn't take things seriously here.

I know he is trolling. The way he did it by spamming images was concerning.

And noted, I will no longer take you seriously. It was a chore anyway.

 

[serveandvolley_]

It's not an excuse. When discussing who is the HC GOAT now or if they are equal in number of slams, distribution is important since there are 2 slams on HC.

6-5 with winning records in the final of both is better than 7-3 with a losing record in the finals of on of the slams.

If Djokovic wins 2 more USO/AUS O's, he is the GOAT in the hard court slam department.

 

[serveandvolley_]

Everyone chooses the statistics that suit their argument, and there are no rules against this.

Should be just about numbers. >>> the better

 

[swordtennis]

Number of slams don't determine form on the day.

Who cares.

 

[Djokovic2011]

They’re all minor events under the slams/YEC. IE many Dubai/Basel wins have been strong fields comparable to certain masters wins.

No chance

But only tournaments at Masters level and above are considered big according to the ATP website.

 

[jm1980]

Guys, the current layout of surfaces on the GS tournaments is not bad, as @Sport says. Tennis have two majors on the natural surface (clay (RG), grass (Wimbledon)) and two on the artificial surface (hard (AO, USO)). HC is today the most widespread surface, so it's understandable, that HC has two GS tournaments. However, it would be worth considering whether either AO or USO would go to the carpet, then there would be four different surfaces on the GS, and a balance would be maintained - two majors at natural surface x two majors at artifical surface.

Clay courts are made out of a layer of crushed brick on top of layers of other rocks and minerals

It's not natural clay

 

[mike danny]

I know he is trolling. The way he did it by spamming images was concerning.

And noted, I will no longer take you seriously. It was a chore anyway.

I don't know what I have really done to tick you off.

 

[mike danny]

Who cares.

Just saying.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Sometimes I fantasize about dividing the tour in 2.

Natural surfaces being one tour, HC another.

Every year I look forward to clay and grass like a little child. I LOVE European courts. They are beautiful w history and style. When Wimbledon is over I go into a mild depression and feel a bit tennis is over for the year.

The ones that LOVE HCs so much, say its a neutral surface, can stick to that if they like that so much. I would prefer an all year round w clay and grass only.

 

[Plamen1234]

Imo Federer is the GOAT.Even if Nadal and Djokovic end with more Slams than Federer I am not going to change my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Imo Federer is the GOAT.Even if Nadal and Djokovic end with more Slams than Federer I am not going to change my opinion.

That is precisely why your current "opinion" (read bias) is worthless.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

That is precisely why your current "opinion" (read bias) is worthless.

Nothing to see here

 

[serveandvolley_]

Imo Federer is the GOAT.Even if Nadal and Djokovic end with more Slams than Federer I am not going to change my opinion.

With 21, there is a new GOAT.
I see the numbers are getting closer and it is scaring you.

 

[Username_]

This entire argument gets more and more pointless with every passing year for Nadal fans.

Courts get slower and slower on the majority of surfaces and yet Djokovic still whoops Nadal.

Courts are so homogeneous the argument that "surface distribution" is working against him

 

[Shank Volley]

Number of slams don't determine form on the day.

Wait are you telling me Federer with 5 slams is better than Federer with 20 slams? You mean Millman and Tsitsipas aren't jaw dropping world beaters? Who woulda thunk it~

The fact that some people either can't or choose not to understand this is mindboggling to me.

 

[Enceladus]

Since when is clay a natural surface? Its top layer is made from crushed red brick. Hardly natural. It’s not like it’s played on a living, breathing plant like grass.

Clay courts are made out of a layer of crushed brick on top of layers of other rocks and minerals

It's not natural clay

"Clay is as natural a surface as you are going to get in tennis. It comes from naturally formed rock which is sometimes processed."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/rules_and_equipment/4553209.stm

"A clay court is constructed using natural stone that is crushed to different levels."
https://www.itftennis.com/technical/facilities/facilities-guide/surface-descriptions.aspx

Clay - "This term denotes a type of surface that is constructed from naturally-derived materials, and includes an unbound fine gritty material as the uppermost (playing) layer, e.g. fast-dry. The integrity of the surface shall not be reliant on the addition of a carpet or membrane layer to the structure."
https://www.itftennis.com/technical/courts/surface-type.aspx

What is important is that both the BBC and in particular ITF, designate clay as a natural surface.

 

[Rabe87]

Clay courts are made out of a layer of crushed brick on top of layers of other rocks and minerals

It's not natural clay

Um no, it's crushed brick at certain events, at RG it's a mix of clay and a form of crushed minerals.

 

[Lew II]

With this logic, Kevin Mayer is not the best in Decathlon, because he is not the best in the world in 100m, long jump, high jump, discus throw, etc.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Clay courts are made out of a layer of crushed brick on top of layers of other rocks and minerals

It's not natural clay

Is as natural as it gets. Rocks and minerals are natural.

 

[Rabe87]

Novak Djokovic is the one true Supreme and that is all.

 

[KINGROGER]

That is precisely why your current "opinion" (read bias) is worthless.

Djokovic beating up on nextgen mugs and geriatrics to win 20+ slams won’t change my opinion on Federer being the best tennis player I’ve seen.

Of course the consensus GOAT may change if he breaks all the big records no denying that.

 

[serveandvolley_]

Djokovic beating up on nextgen mugs and geriatrics to win 20+ slams won’t change my opinion on Federer being the best tennis player I’ve seen.

Of course the consensus GOAT may change if he breaks all the big records no denying that.

Djokovic is the GOAT if he reaches 21.

 

[Rabe87]

Djokovic beating up on nextgen mugs and geriatrics to win 20+ slams won’t change my opinion on Federer being the best tennis player I’ve seen.

Of course the consensus GOAT may change if he breaks all the big records no denying that.

Because Federdone was so impressive beating up Baghdatis, Nalbandian, Davydenko and co in the 'tough era'? If Nadal is a geriatric at 32, then surely Joe must be one also if he's a mere 11 months younger? Joe's been dominating both Fed and Nad for almost a decade now, hard pill to swallow for Federdone fans, but stats don't lie, he's won more Slams than both combined in the past 8 years pls and thankyou.

 

[Rabe87]

Djokovic is the GOAT if he reaches 21.

Didn't see Federer holding all Slams at once? Joe's 1 slam away from doing it a second time, that's GOAT material right there.

 

[The Fedfather]

Because Federdone was so impressive beating up Baghdatis, Nalbandian, Davydenko and co in the 'tough era'? If Nadal is a geriatric at 32, then surely Joe must be one also if he's a mere 11 months younger? Joe's been dominating both Fed and Nad for almost a decade now, hard pill to swallow for Federdone fans, but stats don't lie, he's won more Slams than both combined in the past 8 years pls and thankyou.

He's been dominating, I don't think there are fans who argue against that. For nearly a decade? Let's see. 2011, 2015, 2016, half of 2018. What'd I forget?

 

[Rabe87]

He's been dominating, I don't think there are fans who argue against that. For nearly a decade? Let's see. 2011, 2015, 2016, half of 2018. What'd I forget?

the 2014 Wimby final xx

 

[Rabe87]

He's been dominating both Fed and Nad for almost a decade, racking up more wins than losses against both every season, you also forgot that one x.

 

[The Fedfather]

the 2014 Wimby final xx

Cheeky. That's not domination though. Even went to 5.

He's been dominating both Fed and Nad for almost a decade, racking up more wins than losses against both every season, you also forgot that one x.

That's incorrect as well.

 

[tennisaddict]

He's been dominating both Fed and Nad for almost a decade, racking up more wins than losses against both every season, you also forgot that one x.

While losing multiple times to stalwarts Andy murray and Stbislas in major finals

 

[Rabe87]

While losing multiple times to stalwarts Andy murray and Stbislas in major finals

Does that mean all the GS finals he's beaten Federdone in, gosh there's been alot, are defunct because he dropped a few GS finals to Murray and Wawrinka? They're multi-Slam champs unlike Thanasi Kokkinakis and John Millman who dice Federer up these days x

 

[jm1980]

Um no, it's crushed brick at certain events, at RG it's a mix of clay and a form of crushed minerals.

Composition of a clay court at Roland-Garros
1- Red brick dust: 1 - 2 mm
2- Crushed white limestone: 6 - 7 cm
3- Clinker (coal residue): 7 - 8 cm
4- Crushed gravel: at least 30 cm
5- Drain

https://www.rolandgarros.com/en-us/page/roland-garros-tournament-clay-the-hallowed-red-dirt

 

[KINGROGER]

Because Federdone was so impressive beating up Baghdatis, Nalbandian, Davydenko and co in the 'tough era'? If Nadal is a geriatric at 32, then surely Joe must be one also if he's a mere 11 months younger? Joe's been dominating both Fed and Nad for almost a decade now, hard pill to swallow for Federdone fans, but stats don't lie, he's won more Slams than both combined in the past 8 years pls and thankyou.

Yeah and Federer dominated Djokovic from 2003-2010 and was pretty even in the slam H2H between 2011-2012. Just as relevant as Nole dominating old Federer.

Yeah impressive, just as impressive as beating old Fed, Murray, Berdych, Anderson

 

[KINGROGER]

Djokovic is the GOAT if he reaches 21.

By the numbers yeah.

BOAT? Federer and Nadal.

 

[KINGROGER]

Does that mean all the GS finals he's beaten Federdone in, gosh there's been alot, are defunct because he dropped a few GS finals to Murray and Wawrinka? They're multi-Slam champs unlike Thanasi Kokkinakis and John Millman who dice Federer up these days x

Yeah maybe geriatric 33-34 year old Federer who was losing to Seppi and Wawrinka at slams.

 

[KINGROGER]

Didn't see Federer holding all Slams at once? Joe's 1 slam away from doing it a second time, that's GOAT material right there.

I didn’t see when Federer played Andy Murray in a RG final?

 

[Rabe87]

I didn’t see when Federer played Andy Murray in a RG final?

Didn't see Federdone ever beating Nadal at RG - Joe did.
Federdone played a Slamless wonder to get his RG in Soderling.
It still doesn't explain how Federer is so great yet isn't in all these finals? And dominated Joe *lol*, Joe won his first Slam in 2008 honey, flogging Fed in the SF, or was Fed too old then aswell? Has Fed actually ever been young according to TTF?

Honestly, praise the GOAT Joe Kovic, Fed and Nad are his pigeons and he's 1 Slam away from holding all 4 again, Federdone is 1 Slam away from retirement. X

 

[Rabe87]

Federer, the greatest of all time*

*= third best of his own generation, thus not the GOAT

 

[Rhino]

Any GOAT has an unfair advantage, in that he never has to play himself to win tournaments.

Imagine how many more trophies the other guys would have if they never had to defeat the GOAT to win them?

 

[tennisaddict]

Didn't see Federer holding all Slams at once? Joe's 1 slam away from doing it a second time, that's GOAT material right there.

If you account for the weakera , it doesnt hold a candle for what Fed achieved (3 genuine slams in a year and RG final against Ned) and what Laver got

Even giving full weightage to Novak’s 15 , he is still 6 short of the target, LOL

Considering he won 9 of his 15 majors during this weak period , you should be really happy

 

[KineticChain]

What is a surfaces' specialist? A player who is more succesful in one surface than the others.

In tennis, there are 2 Grand Slams on hard courts, 1 on grass and 1 on clay. It gives a clear advantage to hard court specialists. Thus, the Grand Slam race is utterly irrelevant since it gives advantage to the hard court specialists, not the overall most accomplished player.

The only way that the Grand Slam race would make sense is if the Australian Open and the US Open rotate every year to have one Grand Slam per surface. For example:

2020: Australian Open is held and the US Open is not held.
2021: US Open is held and the Australian Open is not held.
2022: Australian Open is held and the US Open is not held.
2023: US Open is held and the Australian Open is not held.

Before Djokovic fans complain, think about it: if there were 2 Grand Slams on clay Nadal could potentially finish his career with 30 Grand Slams. Would that make him the GOAT or simply the greatest clay player? If there were 2 Grand Slams on grass, Federer could potentially finish his career with 26 Grand Slams or more. Would that make Federer the GOAT or simply the greatest grass player?

Djokovic can end up with 23 Grand Slams, but it will only be because 2 Grand Slams are on hard courts. If 2 Grand Slams were on clay, Nadal would win the Grand Slam race. If 2 Grand Slams were on grass, Federer would win the Grand Slam race.

There can only be a GOAT of surfaces:

Clay GOAT: Nadal
Grass GOAT: Federer
Hard courts GOAT: Djokovic


Overall GOAT: nobody.

tl;dr

 

[Towser83]

Imagine if there was a slam on indoor Hard. Fed and Djokovic would have 90 slams and Nadal would have only won 3 out of the 4.

Very unfair that there is no indoor slam.

Also unfair that there's much harder competition on HC than clay, but that's life I guess, we can accept it or all have a moan