Why UTR is a deeply flawed system.

I re-read most of this, seems like the people who have an issue with UTR have 1-3 examples of players being rated incorrectly, but most of those players aren't even interested in playing UTR so it doesn't matter too much.
I've been doing UTR tournaments regularly this summer, they average 100 ish players per tourney and everyone is 90% correctly rated. Tournament directors have a HUGE incentive to please the parents and that means actively taking a role in matchups. If a player in the first match goes 6-0 6-0 there is a discussion with both participants and a quick re-working of the next round, if needed, with more appropriate matchups. I've seen it in action, UTR is pretty good compared to anything else.

When have you seen a sandbagging USTA NTRP rated player get moved up during a tournament lol?
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
This is spot on. Most of what people complain about with the USTA and NTRP is related to leagues, and UTR has not gone down this path yet. Should they at some point, it will be interesting to see how they tackle the challenges.
fully agreed. Another point is 'UTR is way more accurate compared to NTRP' - but in reality folks saying that compare correctness of UTR of junior players vs. correctness of NTRP of adult players. Well, sure, since juniors play ~100 official matches a year while adults play 4-6 obviously junior's ranking is going to be more accurate. there are countless post about 'how bad UTR for adults is' - but this is not because UTR somehow purposely makes adults ranking less accurate. It is simply because there is not enough data.
Which is also why for adults the ranking, in practice, cannot really be 'more fluid' or has 'more levels'. Because adults play so infrequently you should not really pay too much attention to a single result. So having a wide band/long time frame of rankings for adults is a 'good' thing.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
I re-read most of this, seems like the people who have an issue with UTR have 1-3 examples of players being rated incorrectly, but most of those players aren't even interested in playing UTR so it doesn't matter too much.
I've been doing UTR tournaments regularly this summer, they average 100 ish players per tourney and everyone is 90% correctly rated. Tournament directors have a HUGE incentive to please the parents and that means actively taking a role in matchups. If a player in the first match goes 6-0 6-0 there is a discussion with both participants and a quick re-working of the next round, if needed, with more appropriate matchups. I've seen it in action, UTR is pretty good compared to anything else.

When have you seen a sandbagging USTA NTRP rated player get moved up during a tournament lol?
could you point me to few UTR tournaments with ~100 players? What does 'a quick re-working of the next round, if needed, with more appropriate matchups' mean? If UTR is so much more accurate compared to NTRP how is it possible to have two players with similar UTR play a match and have a result to be 6:0 6:0? Wouldn't that mean that UTR is _not_ accurate, or that it is entirely fine to have a match between players with similar ranking end up with 6:0 6:0 score? And if the latter is true - why are folks so up in arms when a match between two similar NTRP players ends up with lopsided score?
 
1. Sure, for 100 plus players look at UTR near Dallas or Houston, I would also guess major California cities and Florida, especially when high school isn't in session.
2. Re-working: The tourney director wants everyone to have a good time and come back again. So, you ask the winner AND loser, how did that feel, I think you need to go down a little in level or up, is that ok? Etc. Etc. I've seen the players agree to this in 8 instances. Each player is in a group of players for the tournament according to rating, you can just take someone who did well in the first round, push him up against someone who got a beat down in the higher grouping and vice versa. It's not too hard.
3. It's easily possible, if 2 matches out of 50 in the first round end up 6-0 6-0 that's not too bad and UTR groupings can be 1.5 points in difference, like 6.5-8.0 grouping. NTRP can have an entire 26 man roster of a league team be rated 3.5 when they are really all top 4.0 players, that would mean a whole team of UTR ratings of 5 when they are all really UTR 7. NTRP also has open division for tournaments which gets 4.0-5.5 players of NTRP rating, but I won't hold that against NTRP, just an example. In addition, I know of no sandbagging UTR players, I know about 70 in Dallas men's NTRP.
4. I am not sure why they are up in arms
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
Something is definitely strange with UTR for USTA players in my area. My singles UTR was bumped from 3.?? [can't remember the exact number] to 5.1 recently based on last years' USTA league results, without any new matches being entered. So clearly some re-calibration was done. Interestingly my doubles UTR stayed the same. All of my opponents' UTRs were also higher. So I think the system isn't very stable yet, at least not for those of us who are rated primarily from USTA adult leagues.

Last year, when UTR was still new, most of the guys in the local 3.5 league had UTRs of 2 and 3. Seems like the trend has been steadily upwards in terms of calibration from there -- the guys haven't changed but their ratings keep getting bumped up.
 

R1FF

Semi-Pro
How would you do a league though?

Imagine you play your first match of the year and your opponent forgets his contacts and loses 0&1.

Three days later and you are both kicked out of the league and your season is done?

J
As far as I know, beating ONE opponent 0 & 1 isnt going to raise your UTR catastrophically overnight.

Now if you are repeatedly doing that for weeks on end, isnt that a pretty strong indicator that a person has sandbagged?

I dont see how having accurate/current ratings are a negative to leagues. Play in the division you belong and it’s not an issue.

I’d reformat the entire league process if it were me. There wouldnt be leagues broken down by skills. You would just be expected to field a roster with a wide spread of talent (from UTR 2 thru whatever) so that fair matchups could be made. But that is a wholesale change to the format that most would resist, even if it helped the sport/was more fun. Not saying it would be, just that people really resist change.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
As far as I know, beating ONE opponent 0 & 1 isnt going to raise your UTR catastrophically overnight.

Now if you are repeatedly doing that for weeks on end, isnt that a pretty strong indicator that a person has sandbagged?

I dont see how having accurate/current ratings are a negative to leagues. Play in the division you belong and it’s not an issue.

I’d reformat the entire league process if it were me. There wouldnt be leagues broken down by skills. You would just be expected to field a roster with a wide spread of talent (from UTR 2 thru whatever) so that fair matchups could be made. But that is a wholesale change to the format that most would resist, even if it helped the sport/was more fun. Not saying it would be, just that people really resist change.
Most adult league players play like 6 matches a year

@schmke correct me if I'm wrong.

J
 

Max G.

Legend
As far as I know, beating ONE opponent 0 & 1 isnt going to raise your UTR catastrophically overnight.
It doesn't need to change it catastrophically. It only needs to change it from "just below the threshold" to "just above the threshold". That could be a pretty tiny jump. After all, there's no real "gap" in skill between levels, skill is a continuum. Someone right near the border might find themselves bouncing around.

Here's the worst case. Someone joins a league, plays their first match, plays great... and that bumps them just over the line, up one rating level, outside that league's limits. They have to go find a new team. They finally find one, play one match, play badly.... and that bumps them back down, since they were only a tiny bit over the line anyway. This is the point where they probably quit this league forever and go play one where ratings don't change mid-season.

Now if you are repeatedly doing that for weeks on end, isnt that a pretty strong indicator that a person has sandbagged?
Or that they got better (or worse)! Remember that you might have a 6-9 month gap between the end of one rated league season to the start of the next. People can change in skill over that time, going up or down. If anybody who ever improves has to go through a moment where they're kicked off their team mid-season, that would be supremely frustrating for both players and captains.

(Note that if ratings updates are immediate, basically ANY bump-up would happen mid-season!)

I dont see how having accurate/current ratings are a negative to leagues. Play in the division you belong and it’s not an issue.
Accurate ratings are good. Ratings that change mid-season are bad, because mid-season updates means that which division you "belong" in might change at any point.

That's why USTA issues ratings yearly and not monthly - so that people can know which division they belong, join the team, and not worry that they might get kicked off their team mid-season.

I’d reformat the entire league process if it were me.
Yes, and I'm sure your totally hypothetical league format would have no weird quirks or corner cases...

There wouldnt be leagues broken down by skills. You would just be expected to field a roster with a wide spread of talent (from UTR 2 thru whatever) so that fair matchups could be made.
You know, I can think of a dozen little ways that this would reproduce many of the same problems as we have now, or create new ones.

Weekly updating ratings could wreak havoc on captains' scheduling. Captain puts out a schedule for next weekends' match, putting out a lineup... and then a ratings update comes out and it turns out their lowest-rated player got bumped that week and they have nobody to play on the lowest line! Oops, I guess we default, because the other UTR3 on our team is out that day and we only have two. That other guy better go and lose some rating points before playoffs in 3 weeks, otherwise we've got nobody to play our "UTR 2-3 singles" line there either!

I've already heard the stories on this board of how much of a headache it is to captain tri-level, where they have to make sure they have each week a spread of levels. Now imagining captaining something like tri-level EXCEPT that players might change ratings at any time!

But that is a wholesale change to the format that most would resist, even if it helped the sport/was more fun. Not saying it would be, just that people really resist change.
People do resist change, and one reason is that its' easy to imagine all the benefits of a new system without thinking about what its drawbacks would be. I absolutely believe you could make a mixed-level league and have it work. I absolutely don't believe it's a magic bullet that fixes all the problems with the current leagues without making any new ones.
 
I have an interesting story about UTR that I am trying to understand how it works.

My nephew played competitive tennis until he turned 13 years old. He was in the top 20th mid Atlantic 12U. When he turned 13, his passion turned into soccer so he spent a year in soccer academy. When he turned 14 years, he joined Development Academy (DA) which is a elite division in soccer. He turned out to be a D1 potential soccer player. When he turned 16, he got two concussions within a three months period and started experienced memory loss. Three different neurologists recommended that he stopped playing soccer altogether. He agreed to quit soccer and it was very hard on him. He went back back to tennis and started training again for almost a year with a very high quality instructor. He turned 17 over the summer and started playing USTA tournaments. Because he had not played any tournaments for four years, he does not have a UTR.

He played only 1 L5 tournament over the summer in both single and double. It was a 32 players draw. In the first round, he played the #1 seed with a UTR of 11.5 and won 6-1 6-1 , In the semi, he played the #4 seed with a UTR of 11.2 and won 6-0 6-1. In the final, he played the #2 seed with 11.4 UTR and won 6-0 6-1. I checked his UTR two days ago and he now has a UTR of 11.1. There is a (P) next to the UTR. I am not sure what that means. I thought these matches don't count because there is a more than 2.0 UTR differential between the two players.
 

BallBag

Semi-Pro
I have an interesting story about UTR that I am trying to understand how it works.

My nephew played competitive tennis until he turned 13 years old. He was in the top 20th mid Atlantic 12U. When he turned 13, his passion turned into soccer so he spent a year in soccer academy. When he turned 14 years, he joined Development Academy (DA) which is a elite division in soccer. He turned out to be a D1 potential soccer player. When he turned 16, he got two concussions within a three months period and started experienced memory loss. Three different neurologists recommended that he stopped playing soccer altogether. He agreed to quit soccer and it was very hard on him. He went back back to tennis and started training again for almost a year with a very high quality instructor. He turned 17 over the summer and started playing USTA tournaments. Because he had not played any tournaments for four years, he does not have a UTR.

He played only 1 L5 tournament over the summer in both single and double. It was a 32 players draw. In the first round, he played the #1 seed with a UTR of 11.5 and won 6-1 6-1 , In the semi, he played the #4 seed with a UTR of 11.2 and won 6-0 6-1. In the final, he played the #2 seed with 11.4 UTR and won 6-0 6-1. I checked his UTR two days ago and he now has a UTR of 11.1. There is a (P) next to the UTR. I am not sure what that means. I thought these matches don't count because there is a more than 2.0 UTR differential between the two players.
The P is for Projected meaning there isn't enough results for a reliable rating. If he's crushing UTR 11s then his UTR should definitely be higher, I don't know why its not. UTR discards results where the winning player is over 2 points higher, so if he had a lower UTR before then these would still count. Since he didn't have a UTR then these count just because these are the only results he has.
 

Badmrfrosty

Rookie
The P is for Projected meaning there isn't enough results for a reliable rating. If he's crushing UTR 11s then his UTR should definitely be higher, I don't know why its not. UTR discards results where the winning player is over 2 points higher, so if he had a lower UTR before then these would still count. Since he didn't have a UTR then these count just because these are the only results he has.
Everyone always talks about discarding scores. They are only doing that with UTRs they have a high confidence in. When someone has less than 10 matches they aren't throwing scores away hell maybe even a number higher than 10.
 

Johnatan

New User
UTR is a flawed system, and myutr is a poorly-designed website. This is why. Hear me out:

  • High school matches cannot be recorded unless the ENTIRE TEAM is registered with UTR. This effectively means no high school matches ever get recorded.

  • Casual club matches cannot get recorded either, which paints an inaccurate picture of a person's actual performance due to a smaller sample size.

  • There is no comment section for opponents to tag the player with specific attributes.


  • Lastly, there is very limited info that can be gained from reading someone's UTR profile, which means it is harder to research someone's game.
These issues make UTR, in my opinion, a very poor solution to the very complicated problem of player ratings.
I do not agree with you at all... I think that UTR is the best tool to evaluate someone's shape at any time. You can tell if someone is in good shape by looking at their UTR. The fact that the weight of your last matches count more is what makes things interesting
 

bxr

New User
I have an interesting story about UTR that I am trying to understand how it works.

My nephew played competitive tennis until he turned 13 years old. He was in the top 20th mid Atlantic 12U. When he turned 13, his passion turned into soccer so he spent a year in soccer academy. When he turned 14 years, he joined Development Academy (DA) which is a elite division in soccer. He turned out to be a D1 potential soccer player. When he turned 16, he got two concussions within a three months period and started experienced memory loss. Three different neurologists recommended that he stopped playing soccer altogether. He agreed to quit soccer and it was very hard on him. He went back back to tennis and started training again for almost a year with a very high quality instructor. He turned 17 over the summer and started playing USTA tournaments. Because he had not played any tournaments for four years, he does not have a UTR.

He played only 1 L5 tournament over the summer in both single and double. It was a 32 players draw. In the first round, he played the #1 seed with a UTR of 11.5 and won 6-1 6-1 , In the semi, he played the #4 seed with a UTR of 11.2 and won 6-0 6-1. In the final, he played the #2 seed with 11.4 UTR and won 6-0 6-1. I checked his UTR two days ago and he now has a UTR of 11.1. There is a (P) next to the UTR. I am not sure what that means. I thought these matches don't count because there is a more than 2.0 UTR differential between the two players.
4 years of no tennis, that's impressive, assuming those are reasonably competitive matches despite the score lines, he would have been at least a 12. If he is beating these 11-12 players quite convincingly by that margin for a good 8-10 matches, his UTR should reflect his true form. Amazing coach he has to be able to bring him back close to this level after such a long break. I guess one of the reasons he can still get back to the top level is maintaining that fitness & agility over the years.
 
Last edited:

navigator

Hall of Fame
I have an interesting story about UTR that I am trying to understand how it works.

My nephew played competitive tennis until he turned 13 years old. He was in the top 20th mid Atlantic 12U. When he turned 13, his passion turned into soccer so he spent a year in soccer academy. When he turned 14 years, he joined Development Academy (DA) which is a elite division in soccer. He turned out to be a D1 potential soccer player. When he turned 16, he got two concussions within a three months period and started experienced memory loss. Three different neurologists recommended that he stopped playing soccer altogether. He agreed to quit soccer and it was very hard on him. He went back back to tennis and started training again for almost a year with a very high quality instructor. He turned 17 over the summer and started playing USTA tournaments. Because he had not played any tournaments for four years, he does not have a UTR.

He played only 1 L5 tournament over the summer in both single and double. It was a 32 players draw. In the first round, he played the #1 seed with a UTR of 11.5 and won 6-1 6-1 , In the semi, he played the #4 seed with a UTR of 11.2 and won 6-0 6-1. In the final, he played the #2 seed with 11.4 UTR and won 6-0 6-1. I checked his UTR two days ago and he now has a UTR of 11.1. There is a (P) next to the UTR. I am not sure what that means. I thought these matches don't count because there is a more than 2.0 UTR differential between the two players.
Hmmm... I gotta say something doesn't compute here. Your nephew stopped at 13 as a very decent (but not exceptional) player, was away from tennis for four (critical) years, and now he's been back at tennis for a year and appears to be playing at a UTR12+ level? There's a kid where I play once a week in San Diego who just turned 17. He's a 5-star recruit and was in the top-5 in Southern California in the U16s. He's been near the top of his age group in SoCal since U10s. His UTR is 11.9. And your nephew, with a much lower ranking in a much weaker section who takes 4 years off and has been back playing for a year is around the same level? That seems highly unlikely unless there's something missing from the story.
 

bxr

New User
Quick check on the top 10 16 yo boys in the country... they are somewhere in the range of 11.5-12.
Intense/high quality 12 months of training and the rest of it, I think it's still achievable, since he's had most of his fitness and agility training from playing soccer, and he would have a good 7-8 years of tennis fundamental until 13, but the kid has to be a great athlete to be able to catch up the 4 years of competitive tennis.
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
Quick check on the top 10 16 yo boys in the country... they are somewhere in the range of 11.5-12.
Intense/high quality 12 months of training and the rest of it, I think it's still achievable, since he's had most of his fitness and agility training from playing soccer, and he would have a good 7-8 years of tennis fundamental until 13, but the kid has to be a great athlete to be able to catch up the 4 years of competitive tennis.
If this kid had been playing since age 5-6 and was only in the top-20 in MATA by U12s (that's not even close to having a national ranking of any kind), that's not very special. Even more reason to doubt he could be at the level of a top-10 nationally-ranked U16 after only back playing for a year. Again, something doesn't compute.
 
If this kid had been playing since age 5-6 and was only in the top-20 in MATA by U12s (that's not even close to having a national ranking of any kind), that's not very special. Even more reason to doubt he could be at the level of a top-10 nationally-ranked U16 after only back playing for a year. Again, something doesn't compute.
I never said that. I was just asking about the (P) in the UTR rating.

He is very physically gifted player. At 17, he is 6 ft 2 187 lbs. He spent a year abroad training soccer and then join soccer DA after that. He can run the 40 yard dash in 4.35 seconds. He run the half marathon in less than 1 hours 8 minutes. He would have been a very good D1 soccer if it weren't for the concussions. He trains for tennis the exact way he trained soccer. It help that his parents can afford to pay for the very best coaches that also coached ATP players. I saw him practice with former ATP and D1 players and he looks really good. I have no idea if he will be at the level of top-10 nationally for U18 but with training like that, he definitely has a chance.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I never said that. I was just asking about the (P) in the UTR rating.

He is very physically gifted player. At 17, he is 6 ft 2 187 lbs. He spent a year abroad training soccer and then join soccer DA after that. He can run the 40 yard dash in 4.35 seconds. He run the half marathon in less than 1 hours 8 minutes. He would have been a very good D1 soccer if it weren't for the concussions. He trains for tennis the exact way he trained soccer. It help that his parents can afford to pay for the very best coaches that also coached ATP players. I saw him practice with former ATP and D1 players and he looks really good. I have no idea if he will be at the level of top-10 nationally for U18 but with training like that, he definitely has a chance.
Most boys 18s L5 players in mid Atlantic are around UTR 9.

Why would all these 11-12 UTR players join that tournament?

J
 

onehandbh

Legend
I never said that. I was just asking about the (P) in the UTR rating.

He is very physically gifted player. At 17, he is 6 ft 2 187 lbs. He spent a year abroad training soccer and then join soccer DA after that. He can run the 40 yard dash in 4.35 seconds. He run the half marathon in less than 1 hours 8 minutes. He would have been a very good D1 soccer if it weren't for the concussions. He trains for tennis the exact way he trained soccer. It help that his parents can afford to pay for the very best coaches that also coached ATP players. I saw him practice with former ATP and D1 players and he looks really good. I have no idea if he will be at the level of top-10 nationally for U18 but with training like that, he definitely has a chance.
Post a video of him playing some points, games. A set.
Anything. Practice, tournament. Curious to see this guy.

Reminds of this guy in his mid 20s a couple years ago, that was a reclusive part-time yogi and also a Instagram begpacker that had been traveling the world gaining enlightment and studying the plyometric power of the greatest creatures in nature.

When he finally returned to the U.S, he walked by a minor league baseball team warming up and asked if they'd like the see the power of Musi-Kinetic human potential level modern man. They laughed at him, as they watched him march up to the mound, holding an old scruffed up baseball. He proceeded to throw it -- FIRE IT -- at the catcher and knocked the glove out of the catcher's hand. They guy was screaming from pain in his glove hand.

Everyone's jaw dropped.
"Get out the radar!", yelled the coach.

Bam. Knocked the guy flat on his back this time.
168 mph !!!!

Everyone rushed him but he just quietly walked away and was never seen again. Nobody ever figured out who he was, but rumor is that he was a nephew of the legendary Sidd Finch.

Should've, could've, but did want to.
 

onehandbh

Legend
For perspective, 4.35 happens to be Usain Bolt’s 40-yard split from his world record 100m.
3 years ago, my friend hand-timed me with his G-shock stopwatch in the 40.
4.29 seconds*

*I was getting ready to try and qualify for the Olympics, but then I realized he had been messaging on his mobile phone and hadn't noticed I already started running until I was already about halfway down the track. #dasheddreams
 

onehandbh

Legend
I found this interesting:

While Bolt's time may have been fake, that youtuber's methodology for estimating Bolt's time is horribly inaccurate.
He's probably in the ballpark, but his margin for error using a hand-operated stopwatch while watching TV is laughable.

A much better and simpler way is to use the video file, figure out the frame's per second it was record and then use then count then frames. If it was the usual 30 fps, you'd still get within 0.03 - 0.06 or so, assuming the shutter speed on the camera used to record Bolt was high enough to see when he started and when he crossed the line. These are big IFs, though.
 
While Bolt's time may have been fake, that youtuber's methodology for estimating Bolt's time is horribly inaccurate.
He's probably in the ballpark, but his margin for error using a hand-operated stopwatch while watching TV is laughable.

A much better and simpler way is to use the video file, figure out the frame's per second it was record and then use then count then frames. If it was the usual 30 fps, you'd still get within 0.03 - 0.06 or so, assuming the shutter speed on the camera used to record Bolt was high enough to see when he started and when he crossed the line. These are big IFs, though.
I actually think Bolt’s 4.22 tying the NFL combine record in street clothes is at least plausible, assuming it was done using an automated timer start linked to push-off, which is what they use at the combine (this shaves off the 0.15 typical human reaction time that you would have when measuring a split from an Olympic race). I was wrong in my post earlier - his 40-yard split in the Olympics record race comes out closer to 4 flat.
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
I never said that. I was just asking about the (P) in the UTR rating.
In effect, yes, you did say that. If he's beating 11 - 11.5 UTR so easily then it stands to reason he's a UTR12+... right in line with top-10 USTA U16s. That's simple, logical extrapolation - no leaps required.

He is very physically gifted player. At 17, he is 6 ft 2 187 lbs. He spent a year abroad training soccer and then join soccer DA after that. He can run the 40 yard dash in 4.35 seconds. He run the half marathon in less than 1 hours 8 minutes. He would have been a very good D1 soccer if it weren't for the concussions. He trains for tennis the exact way he trained soccer. It help that his parents can afford to pay for the very best coaches that also coached ATP players. I saw him practice with former ATP and D1 players and he looks really good. I have no idea if he will be at the level of top-10 nationally for U18 but with training like that, he definitely has a chance.
There are elements of the person you're describing that do exist. But, on the whole, it is unlikely that this person exists, or is so rare that we should assume that he does not exist. I live by Carl Sagan's motto that, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Provide the evidence and I'm happy to re-evaluate. Otherwise, I just file it under internet vapor, of which there is a considerable volume.

Most boys 18s L5 players in mid Atlantic are around UTR 9.

Why would all these 11-12 UTR players join that tournament?
Why, indeed...
 
I never said that. I was just asking about the (P) in the UTR rating.

He is very physically gifted player. At 17, he is 6 ft 2 187 lbs. He spent a year abroad training soccer and then join soccer DA after that. He can run the 40 yard dash in 4.35 seconds. He run the half marathon in less than 1 hours 8 minutes. He would have been a very good D1 soccer if it weren't for the concussions. He trains for tennis the exact way he trained soccer. It help that his parents can afford to pay for the very best coaches that also coached ATP players. I saw him practice with former ATP and D1 players and he looks really good. I have no idea if he will be at the level of top-10 nationally for U18 but with training like that, he definitely has a chance.

Current world record for the full marathon is 2:01:39. Assuming the per mile time stays roughly constant, your nephew's projected time would be 2:16. World class. And a completely atypical body type [height and weight] compared to elite runners. An outlier for sure.
 
3 years ago, my friend hand-timed me with his G-shock stopwatch in the 40.
4.29 seconds*

*I was getting ready to try and qualify for the Olympics, but then I realized he had been messaging on his mobile phone and hadn't noticed I already started running until I was already about halfway down the track. #dasheddreams
I'd ask for my money back on the watch. Maybe it has undergone too many gs?
 

bxr

New User
I never said that. I was just asking about the (P) in the UTR rating.

He is very physically gifted player. At 17, he is 6 ft 2 187 lbs. He spent a year abroad training soccer and then join soccer DA after that. He can run the 40 yard dash in 4.35 seconds. He run the half marathon in less than 1 hours 8 minutes. He would have been a very good D1 soccer if it weren't for the concussions. He trains for tennis the exact way he trained soccer. It help that his parents can afford to pay for the very best coaches that also coached ATP players. I saw him practice with former ATP and D1 players and he looks really good. I have no idea if he will be at the level of top-10 nationally for U18 but with training like that, he definitely has a chance.
He will just need to show he is up there with the best guys, do a few ITFs, and see how he goes, maybe he is unstoppable. I'm not sure if Nick Kyrgios runs 40 yards or can do marathons that fast but he has amazing talent and athleticism as a tennis player (despite some negatives we see on TV), if he takes a couple years off (maybe not 4) and comes back, I think he can still take on the top guys. Having said that, 13-16 yo is a critical period to develop a good player, physically, technically, tactically and mentally.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
He will just need to show he is up there with the best guys, do a few ITFs, and see how he goes, maybe he is unstoppable. I'm not sure if Nick Kyrgios runs 40 yards that fast or can do marathons that fast but he has amazing talent and athleticism as a tennis player (despite some negatives we see on TV), if he takes a couple years off (maybe not 4) and comes back, I think he can still take on the top guys. Having said that, 13-16 yo is a critical period to develop a good player, physically, technically, tactically and mentally.
Anything is possible in fantasy land.

J
 

Current world record for the full marathon is 2:01:39. Assuming the per mile time stays roughly constant, your nephew's projected time would be 2:16. World class. And a completely atypical body type [height and weight] compared to elite runners. An outlier for sure.
What’s the average weight for those world-class Kenyan marathon runners? About 130 lbs dripping wet? A 68-minute half-marathon at 187 lbs would be a new world record for the weight class.
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
What’s the average weight for those world-class Kenyan marathon runners? About 130 lbs dripping wet? A 68-minute half-marathon at 187 lbs would be a new world record for the weight class.
The average weight of the top-100 marathoners in 2011 was 124 lbs.

I wish that when folks here make sh1t up out of whole cloth they would do a better job of it. This bobleenov's was a real howler.
 

Saul Goode

Semi-Pro
The average weight of the top-100 marathoners in 2011 was 124 lbs.

I wish that when folks here make sh1t up out of whole cloth they would do a better job of it. This bobleenov's was a real howler.
There are weight v. pace calculators that estimate a drop of about 3 minutes per 10 pounds lost, so our young athlete would likely hit a world record if he got down to my optimal running weight of 153. As google translate would have me believe a Kenyan might say, “isiyosadikika.”
 

navigator

Hall of Fame

Current world record for the full marathon is 2:01:39. Assuming the per mile time stays roughly constant, your nephew's projected time would be 2:16. World class. And a completely atypical body type [height and weight] compared to elite runners. An outlier for sure.
From today's news:


Ryan Hall, who was America’s top marathoner from 2007 to 2011 before abruptly retiring from competitive running in 2016 at age 33, said today he is back to training—but he does not know if he would define it as serious or not.

He is currently running 8 to 13 miles daily, including two harder workouts each week, either intervals or a tempo. He is also lifting weights for 60 to 90 minutes each afternoon.

He wants to get back into shape to be able to run a 2:18 marathon or a 1:07 half marathon, which would make him fit enough to be able to pace his wife, Sara Hall, during training. She will be a top contender at the 2020 Olympic Marathon Trials in February in Atlanta.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, 1:08 half marathon for a casual runner... no problem.
 
Last edited:

time_fly

Hall of Fame
Bam. Knocked the guy flat on his back this time.
168 mph !!!!
And the most amazing thing is it’s this same kid who can run a 4.35 40-yard dash and 1:08 half marathon.

I used to be into competitive running. There’s no way someone can do both those things. The training and musculature for elite sprinting vs elite distance running are completely different.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
I order a decree that all Websites related to UTR system and calculations be Shut down immediately for the good of Tennis. Tennis will not survive with this system in place
 

J B

Semi-Pro
Wow..... who are we to demand to see this kids play so we who are not 12utr can decide if he is? You are truly doubling his half time to a full marathon? Everyone knows that The top runners are the top because they can sustain their times. The kid would have 13 miles to drop off the pace. Yet how dare he be good.... FFS we need to check ourselves on this forum if we think we are the authority on tennis and running skills.
 
Top