The guy who has double the amount of RG's Fed has
Gustavo Kuerten would have beaten some versions of Nadal on Clay.Nadal has got beaten by only two players at Roland garros .
Both players had Two handed backhand .
One handed backhand Player can never beat Nadal at Roland Garros .
If Federer had a Two handed backhand like say Andy Murray ,he would have had a chance too .
Real Fraud former headsize : 92.5 sq inch (not 90)Yup - Fed playing with a 90sq in racquet that was more appropriate for 1980s style of play was a huge disadvantage against Rafa on clay. How he got that OHBH to hit Rafa’s topspin FH is beyond me.
The problem with this method is that it's not exhaustive.Djokovic vs Nadal atleast somewhere close to prime form: 07, 08, 12,13,14,20 : 4 sets in 6 matches (Djoko too young, not top 10 in 2006)
Federer vs Nadal atleast somewhere close to prime form: 05,06,07,08,11,19: 4 sets in 6 matches
This with Djokovic getting 2 sets vs Nadal in RG 13 to his credit.
Mine was a response to this:Would would would. Keep track of wins adjusted by (your estimate of) opponents' levels all you want man, I'm not getting stuck in that loop. I just hope that two wins over Bull and a couple of RGs can at least partially make up for the suckage of never beating someone like 2009 Del Potro in your book.
Fed's displayed a high level in actual matches including beating high level opponents.Because Federer saves his best tennis for hypothetical matches.
Not that even that matters in this case. Nadal in a wheelchair would beat the guy at Roland Garros 10 times out of 10.
You could argue 10 as well for Fed. half a step behind at worst.The problem with this method is that it's not exhaustive.
Djokovic still had 3 more prime runs other than 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014. It's pretty easy to assume that he takes at least one set off a prime Nadal in his 2011, 2015 and 2016 forms, perhaps more.
Federer has 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011. He only had 2009 where he was in his prime, but didn't face Nadal. Takes 1, maybe 2 sets, assuming Nadal plays like the actual prime Nadal.
Djokovic simply has more prime level runs than Fed. One more anyway, but slightly better longevity, so he was bound to catch Nadal off guard at some point.
Ofcourse .He would also have a chance simply by drawing Nadal in 2015. Instead he draw Stan, who dismantled Djokovic in the final.
Bull can outplay Djokovic on dirt of course but not all the time like he does against Fed. Bull enjoys feasting on 1HBH, it's no coincidence that all Bull's losses at RG were against 2HBH players.Yeah but bull can outplay Djokovic...
All Djoko could do was wait for bull to play crap... he could never beat bull when bull was playing decent tennis...
05, 06, 07, 08, 11 Nadal >>>>>> 15, 21 Nadal. Prime Nadal destroys Djokovic on that court. Plus Nadal has been Federer's kryptonite.Federer has a 0-6 record against Nadal at RG, never took more than 1 set off him in a match. Djokovic has a 2-7 record and 1 of those losses was an extremely close 5 setter that he could have won. Why was Federer so poor against Nadal at RG, whereas Djokovic has done reasonably well?
Fed played the FO 17 straight years and has played in 19 FO’s. Djokovic does not have greater longevity at RG than Fed.Djokovic has no RG wins against Primedal and only one five-set loss, duh.
His longevity on the surface has been quite a bit greater than Federer's though, hence the results.
Because Federer never played old washed up Nadal anywhere near his own prime, unlike Djokovic. The same way he never really played Fed at Wimbledon near his prime. Djokovic won his first slam years after Nadal, and he has been running on that advantage and a more efficient playing style ever since, not to mention his advantage over Federer. Djokovic is infinitely inferior to Nadal at RG and to Federer at Wimbledon, he is an opportunistic champion at those two slams.Federer has a 0-6 record against Nadal at RG, never took more than 1 set off him in a match. Djokovic has a 2-7 record and 1 of those losses was an extremely close 5 setter that he could have won. Why was Federer so poor against Nadal at RG, whereas Djokovic has done reasonably well?
Not to forget the 5 year age gapbecause Djokovic got a really crappy Nadal at RG 15 and a well below prime level Nadal at RG 21.
Fed never got a Nadal close to that.
Every time Djokovic got prime level Nadal, he's lost - 07,08,12,13,14, 20 (leaving out 06 when djoko was young)
Only 13 was close.
Stan outplayed Rafa in Rome just weeks before RG. Rafa was out of sorts, and could lose to anyone. Lost two times in a row against Fognini that year, too...Ofcourse .
I am not even talking about Djokovic .
Rafa's is too strong for any One Handed player .
Let's say Djoker and Soderling lost all their matches against Rafa on Clay , but still 2 handed backhand players would give lot of competitive matches against Rafa on Clay .
With Federer's Goat Forehand and Serve and 2 handed backhand ,he would have made almost every match competitive against Rafa on Clay !
Djokovic beat good versions of Federer in 2014 and 2015. Not the best versions, but a lot better than Rafa 2015 as I see it.
Yep. And I am not even considering 2015 version of Nadal.
Fed was already in his mid 30s back then. Djokovic without his age advantage against Federer wouldn't have his Wimbledon record, no doubt about it. Nadal in 2015 was in a different level of low play though.Djokovic beat good versions of Federer in 2014 and 2015. Not the best versions, but a lot better than Rafa 2015 as I see it.
Yeah 2006 - 2014 bull was so lucky that 2015, 2016 or 2021 Djokovic wasn't there to stop him...Well then Bull never beat the best of Djokovic at RG. ZERO wins against him in 2015, 2016 and 2021 when Djokovic showed his best. Even including 2011, still 0 wins for Bull. Beating well below his best Djokovic proves jack ****.
Very valid question.Yes, better to sweep the USO under the rug.
1) I don't remember calling Djokovic the combined AO + USO GOAT ever. He is the AO Goat and a great USO player.
Because you were talking about sth else.Yes, better to sweep the USO under the rug.
Nadal 09 > Nadal 14 by some distance on clayPlease explain how Djokovic beat Nadal at Madrid11, Rome11, MC13 and Rome14? Federer only has Hamburg07 if we are counting Nadal's RG winning seasons.
Federer played Nadal when he was the best tennis player in the world and in his so called prime 2005-2008 and still lost 4 times in a row. That alone destroys any argument.Because Federer never played old washed up Nadal anywhere near his own prime, unlike Djokovic.
Djoker is very good in Melbourne, but Djoker fans make him out to be much better than he is at the other slams. At 3 of the 4 slams, he never came close to the highest level ever played. In the scenario sunny posted recently about peak versions of Nadal, Fed, Djoker and Pete playing at the same time, I'm not sure how well Djoker would do. He's consistent and hangs around and vultures slams here and there. Credit to him for that.Because you were talking about sth else.
You said Nadal at RG and Fed at Wimbledon. I said Djokovic is at least better at vulturing compared to Fedal not beating Djokovic at his pet Slam even once. (except for AO 07).
USO is legit the sole thing you can cling to right now. The desperation to prove your point is unreal, so you just can't be honest and need to deflect
So, now form matters over the eye test for a specific match? Do you think Nadal was fatigued for the Madrid09 final after his physical semi against Djokovic? I hope you (and others) are consistent with your arguments.Nadal 09 > Nadal 14 by some distance on clay
Fed beat Nadal at Madrid 09.
Nadal won Monte Carlo, Rome, Barcelona and made Madrid final in 09.
Just because Soderling GOATed and Nadal wasn't at his sharpest in that one match doesn't change that.
In 14, Nadal was losing left right on clay before RG.
Only a biased/clueless Djoker fan can put 14 Nadal over 09 on clay
Basically Djokovic has 3 wins over prime Nadal on clay - Madrid 11, Rome 11 and Monte Carlo 13
Fed has 2 wins over prime nadal on clay - Hamburg 07 and Madrid 09
Nadal wasn't good by prime level in the specific match - Rome 14 final either, pal. Both form and eye test for specific match fail in that regard in 14.So, now form matters over the eye test for a specific match? Do you think Nadal was fatigued for the Madrid09 final after his physical semi against Djokovic? I hope you (and others) are consistent with your arguments.
That's your logic. If Djokovic only beat below his best Nadal then Bull only beat only below his best Djokovic. Djokovic's best form at RG was in 2015, 2016, 2021 and 2011.Yeah 2006 - 2014 bull was so lucky that 2015, 2016 or 2021 Djokovic wasn't there to stop him...
I mean 2021 Djokovic was soooo much better than 2012 Djokovic and 2006 Federer... he had 9 more years of experience!!!
Lucky, lucky bull...
Wasn't Djokovic 0-6 at some point?Federer has a 0-6 record against Nadal at RG, never took more than 1 set off him in a match. Djokovic has a 2-7 record and 1 of those losses was an extremely close 5 setter that he could have won. Why was Federer so poor against Nadal at RG, whereas Djokovic has done reasonably well?