Why was Federer incapable of beating Nadal at RG, unlike Djokovic?

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Even against crappy Nadal Federer would make him look like a beast, and then people would say he played great versions of Nadal. Nice bait from OP btw lelz.

Nadal wins both 2015 and 2021 RG without Djokovic in his path. Federer was never good enough especially in the tactical aspect to trouble Nadal like Djokovic can.

Djokovic simply has the skills and game to counter Nadal, wich his 2-1 record over him for the past 7 years on chatrier shows us, aswell as having a respectable record overall on clay against him for the past decade.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
So much reinvention in this thread and twisting things just to not give Djokovic credit. Even without 2015 and 2021, when he beat Nadal, he went toe to toe with peak Nadal in 2012 and only won 9 less points than him in that match, and almost beat him in 2013. Federer does not have a match at RG that is on that same level when he was that close to Nadal so it's more than him not getting versions that weren't prime.
The 2013 one deserves praise/credit - for taking prime Nadal to 5.
The 12 one is significant over-rating from you considering Djokovic was down 2 sets to love (lost both comfortably) and lost the 4th set 5-7.
Fed in 06 got closer than that, getting into a 4th set TB.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
The 2013 one deserves praise/credit - for taking prime Nadal to 5.
The 12 one is significant over-rating from you considering Djokovic was down 2 sets to love (lost both comfortably) and lost the 4th set 5-7.
Fed in 06 got closer than that, getting into a 4th set TB.
2012 Nadal and 2008 Nadal are the best two versions to ever step foot on Chatrier. Before the rain delay in 2012, Djokovic and Nadal were even in points and Djokovic had all the momentum. Trying to compare that version of Nadal and the one from 2006 is ridiculous. 2006 Nadal was actually beatable and I guarantee you if you put 2012 Djokovic there, he would have done a lot more damage to him than Federer did in 2006.
 

Kralingen

Hall of Fame
(I think Djokovic wins the 2012 final if there's no rain delay, lol. he was destroying Nadal in the mud, won 8 straight games I believe.)

then again he DF'd on a f-cking match point, so no benefit of the doubt obviously.
 
Federer played Nadal when he was the best tennis player in the world and in his so called prime 2005-2008 and still lost 4 times in a row. That alone destroys any argument.
Sure he lost, but nobody has ever played Nadal on clay like Federer in 2006 in Rome. TBH, for Djokovic to beat Nadal in 2015 and in 2021 has very little merit. Nadal was a shadow of himself in both occasions.

The only thing we know for sure is nobody beat Nadal when he was healthy and in his prime years. I also think Nadal was to Federer what Agassi was to Becker. Nadal was not necessarily the better player but he mentally blocked Federer a lot, just like Agassi did to Becker.
Nadal was the better player on clay by a country mile, and even more so when compared to Djokovic. But Fed lost matches against Nadal that he should have won, yes. Not sure Wimbledon 2008 is one of them, though. Maybe AO 2009.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
2012 Nadal and 2008 Nadal are the best two versions to ever step foot on Chatrier. Before the rain delay in 2012, Djokovic and Nadal were even in points and Djokovic had all the momentum. Trying to compare that version of Nadal and the one from 2006 is ridiculous. 2006 Nadal was actually beatable and I guarantee you if you put 2012 Djokovic there, he would have done a lot more damage to him than Federer did in 2006.
before it started getting low/slow/wet, Nadal was up 2 sets and a break in 12 RG final.
Djoko played great to take advantage of the conditions to get that streak of 8 games, but next day, Nadal resumed business as usual breaking djoko twice in the 4th set.
And no, given Djoko wouldn't have done more damage to 06 Nadal since he wasn't that consistent at RG 12 (Seppi, Tsonga and portions of the final).
 
2012 Nadal and 2008 Nadal are the best two versions to ever step foot on Chatrier. Before the rain delay in 2012, Djokovic and Nadal were even in points and Djokovic had all the momentum. Trying to compare that version of Nadal and the one from 2006 is ridiculous. 2006 Nadal was actually beatable and I guarantee you if you put 2012 Djokovic there, he would have done a lot more damage to him than Federer did in 2006.
Yes, he was very beatable in 2006. Djoker himself confirmed.


 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
before it started getting low/slow/wet, Nadal was up 2 sets and a break.
Djoko played great to take advantage of the conditions to get that streak of 8 games, but next day, Nadal resumed business as usual breaking djoko twice in the 4th set.
And no, given Djoko wouldn't have done more damage to 06 Nadal since he wasn't that consistent at RG 12 (Seppi, Tsonga and portions of the final)
Why do you keep going back to this debunked point? It was already raining earlier in the 2nd set at 2-1, and the umbrellas were already out. It was raining on and off from the 2nd set until the beginning of the 4th when they called the match.

Given that Djokovic matches up with Nadal far better than Federer ever did, and considering Nadal wasn't at his best in RG 2006, Djokovic absolutely would have taken it to him. Who cares about Seppi and Tsonga? I'm talking about the version of Djokovic that actually showed up in the final which is when they would have played.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Why do you keep going back to this debunked point? It was already raining earlier in the 2nd set at 2-1, and the umbrellas were already out. It was raining on and off from the 2nd set until the beginning of the 4th when they called the match.

Given that Djokovic matches up with Nadal far better than Federer ever did, and considering Nadal wasn't at his best in RG 2006, Djokovic absolutely would have taken it to him. Who cares about Seppi and Tsonga? I'm talking about the version of Djokovic that actually showed up in the final which is when they would have played.
Only took him how long again?
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic stuck around until Nadal had a bad year (twice). When Djokovic has bad years Nadal can't beat him. That's why he has 4 USO vs 3 for Djoker.
I love how 2021 was a bad year because Nadal lost. Before that match and even up 5-0 in the 1st, no one gave Djokovic a chance of winning. Djokovic is 34 years old and has quite a bit of wear and tear on his body himself. That was a legit good win. What does USO have to do with RG?
 
Djokofans: Please admit Djokovic is incapable of beating a reasonably good version of Nadal at RG. Nadal is fully capable of beating a prime version of Djokovic at the AO (2012) and Wimbledon (2019) though. That is the difference.
 
I love how 2021 was a bad year because Nadal lost. Before that match and even up 5-0 in the 1st, no one gave Djokovic a chance of winning. Djokovic is 34 years old and has quite a bit of wear and tear on his body himself. That was a legit good win. What does USO have to do with RG?
Look at the numbers for Nadal on clay this year. Absolute crap. Of course, if you watched the match you would know that.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokofans: Please admit Djokovic is incapable of beating a reasonably good version of Nadal at RG. Nadal is fully capable of beating a prime version of Djokovic at the AO (2012) and Wimbledon (2019) though. That is the difference.
If Nadal is capable of beating a prime Djokovic at AO (2012) then Djokovic is fully capable of beating a prime Nadal at RG (2013) unless you're biased.
 
If Nadal is capable of beating a prime Djokovic at AO (2012) then Djokovic is fully capable of beating a prime Nadal at RG (2013) unless you're biased.
The difference is that Nadal won the match in 2013 and he lost it in 2012. Nadal 5th set level in 2013: Djoker could do nothing about it.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Look at the numbers for Nadal on clay this year. Absolute crap. Of course, if you watched the match you would know that.
I did see the numbers but that didn't stop people from handing Nadal the trophy before the tournament and thinking Djokovic had no chance in hell of defeating him. Now after the fact, Nadal was pure crap and of course I watched the match. Lol
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
The difference is that Nadal won the match in 2013 and he lost it in 2012. Nadal 5th set level in 2013: Djoker could do nothing about it.
What are you talking about? The difference is...? Djokovic won the match in 2012 and lost in 2013 on the flip side. Just say you're too biased to see this clearly and save us both the time.
 
I did see the numbers but that didn't stop people from handing Nadal the trophy before the tournament and thinking Djokovic had no chance in hell of defeating him. Now after the fact, Nadal was pure crap and of course I watched the match. Lol
He played like crap, it's a fact. No wonder with his foot issues.
 
What are you talking about? The difference is...? Djokovic won the match in 2012 and lost in 2013 on the flip side. Just say you're too biased to see this clearly and save us both the time.
Everybody is biased. All I am saying is that Nadal lost the match in 2012 (with 4-2 in his favor he only needed to hold serve). Djokovic didn't even get a whiff in the 5th set in 2013 because Nadal wiped him off the court.
 

Djokodal Fan

Hall of Fame
The answer is simple. Novak is a better clay court player than Federer. Novak always positioned himself to take the opportunities to beat Nadal at RG. Regardless of Nadal’s level, fed will always lose. Mostly because he was adamant to change his tactics.

btw this is the first time fed fans are also pulling injury card for nadal at RG 2021. can fedal fans enlighten me how nadal can go 5-0 up in first set,play grueling 90 minute third set and even managed to go 2-0 up in fourth set?

this injury excuse card is hilarious coming from fed fans actually. Novak is a 2 time French open champion and he beat nadal on the way unlike Federer who had to depend on soderling for his free French open giveaway.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Took him 9 years after that to do it but he did it. :)
It took him 9 years because that mountain was a lot to harder to climb than it looked when it stood at the base.

The quote says a lot about him. He's got chutzpah in spades, and you have to admire it sometimes. But sometimes he thinks too much of himself ;)
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Everybody is biased. All I am saying is that Nadal lost the match in 2012 (with 4-2 in his favor he only needed to hold serve). Djokovic didn't even get a whiff in the 5th set in 2013 because Nadal wiped him off the court.
Djokovic himself was up 4-2 in the 5th at RG, since you must have forgotten that, and how is winning 9-7 in the 5th wiping somebody off the court? That match was closer at the end than the AO one.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
It took him 9 years because that mountain was a lot to harder to climb than it looked when it stood at the base.

The quote says a lot about him. He's got chutzpah in spades, and you have to admire it sometimes. But sometimes he thinks too much of himself ;)
Beating Nadal at RG is the hardest task in tennis. I think anyone would agree with that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with believing in yourself. I actually like his brand of cocky better than Serena and Federer's if I'm being honest.
 
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Federer has a 0-6 record against Nadal at RG, never took more than 1 set off him in a match. Djokovic has a 2-7 record and 1 of those losses was an extremely close 5 setter that he could have won. Why was Federer so poor against Nadal at RG, whereas Djokovic has done reasonably well?
This is a bit silly, because everybody and his grandmother knows the answer.
Nadal has the kryptonite against Federer, his crosscourt heavy topspin lefthanded forehand does a lot of damage to the one handed backhand of Federer.

Djokovic doesn't have that problem because he has a two handed backhand, and being like one inch and a half taller than Federer also helps. He doesn't have a weak point against Nadal like Federer.
Nadal has done a lot of damage to the viability of one handed backhands in tennis. Before him the best clay courters were people like Kuerten, Corretja, Costa, Gaudio with one handed backhands. Now it looks like a bad idea, especially in this age of easy spin.
Before his hip injury of 2008, even short men like Nalbandian, if they had a great 2 handed backhand, didn't have any problem at all with Nadal's crosscourt forehand.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Federer is not careful about his diet and according to his fans has not been in his prime since something like 2008. So, he has not had many chances to play Rafa when he was in his prime. Djokovic in contrast takes care of his body like a top athlete should and keeps extending his prime years until Rafa was wheeled out on a wheelchair according to his fans to play Novak in 2021. If Federer had played Rafa this year, he would have beaten him as he wins all hypothetical matches.
Federer played Peak Rafa on Clay in 2005-2011, the Rafa post 2011 was an injured deteriorating Rafa.

Novak doesn't know what it means to have a 5 years younger GOAT right below him charging at him like a raging bull.... it would have been savage....
 
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Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Beating Nadal at RG is hardest task in tennis. I think anyone would agree with that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with believing in yourself. I actually like his brand of cocky better than Serena and Federer's if I'm being honest.
I don't have a problem with his cockiness, necessarily. It does make him look a tad silly when it takes 9 years, though, and he insists he has things under control....

He ordered, and he ate the elephant...but in those 9 years it sure did look like he bit off more than he could chew.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Why do you keep going back to this debunked point? It was already raining earlier in the 2nd set at 2-1, and the umbrellas were already out. It was raining on and off from the 2nd set until the beginning of the 4th when they called the match.

Given that Djokovic matches up with Nadal far better than Federer ever did, and considering Nadal wasn't at his best in RG 2006, Djokovic absolutely would have taken it to him. Who cares about Seppi and Tsonga? I'm talking about the version of Djokovic that actually showed up in the final which is when they would have played.
The rain did start earlier than 3rd set, but the conditions were ideal for Djokovic&against Nadal from the 3rd set only. it takes some time for the bounce to become lower&spin to take less bite.
Nadal was dominant in the match apart from that Djokovic stretch of 8 games.
Djokovic wasn't great apart from that stretch and Nadal had him convincingly. I'm including the final as well. Not just Seppi&Tsonga matches.
Nadal was up 6-4,6-3 and 2-0 (that's 14 games to 7).

Djokovic does matchup better vs Nadal than Federer, but difference is vastly exaggerated by Djoko fans (including you) at RG. Its not that much.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't have a problem with his cockiness, necessarily. It does make him look a tad silly when it takes 9 years, though, and he insists he has things under control....

He ordered, and he ate the elephant...but in those 9 years it sure did look like he bit off more than he could chew.
But he beat Nadal twice at RG. Not once, but twice. He's the only guy to do it so it doesn't make him look silly at all.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Federer played Peak Rafa on Clay in 2005-2011, the Rafa post 2011 was an injured deteriorating Rafa.

Novak never knows what it means to a 5 years younger GOAT right below him charging at him like a raging bull.... it would have been savage....
Djokovic is an opportunist but his fans can't accept the truth
 

Sunny014

Legend
Djokovic is an opportunist but his fans can't accept the truth
Djokovic's confidence arises from the fact that he is 1 yr younger and he knows he could go toe to toe, Federer on the other hand was 5 years older, that makes a hell and heaven difference
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
The rain did start earlier than 3rd set, but the conditions were ideal for Djokovic&against Nadal from the 3rd set only. it takes some time for the bounce to become lower&spin to take less bite.
Nadal was dominant in the match apart from that Djokovic stretch of 8 games.
Djokovic wasn't great apart from that stretch and Nadal had him convincingly. I'm including the final as well. Not just Seppi&Tsonga matches.
Nadal was up 6-4,6-3 and 2-0 (that's 14 games to 7).

Djokovic does matchup better vs Nadal than Federer, but difference is vastly exaggerated by Djoko fans (including you) at RG. Its not that much.
Yea Djokovic was losing because Nadal was playing like something out of this world. It wasn't so much that he was doing a whole lot wrong, but Nadal was coming at him point after point, and he couldn't get on top of him and get some momentum until the 3rd set. Also, Djokovic played fine in the Tsonga match. There was nothing wrong with his level of play in that match. It was the Seppi match where he was terrible. I don't see how you think Djokovic hitting more winners than Tsonga on clay, and having 10 more winners than errors means he played badly.

How is it exaggerated exactly? Federer never beat him or pushed him to a 5th set. Djokovic has pushed him deep into a 5th set when he was playing prime tennis.
 
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But he beat Nadal twice at RG. Not once, but twice. He's the only guy to do it so it doesn't make him look silly at all.
The 2012 AO was on Nadal's racket and he messed up. Djoker won it because Nadal made a stupid mistake. RG has never been on Djoker's racket when he played a decent version of Nadal. Of course Nadal is allowed to have some low points, he has 13 titles there. Kudos for djoker for showing up and taking advantage of the situation, but don't count that as "Djokovic beating Nadal at the FO" because it isn't. I feel we should compare prime to prime.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
But he beat Nadal twice at RG. Not once, but twice. He's the only guy to do it so it doesn't make him look silly at all.
And how many years in between? And he even lost a set in this last match. He didn't have control. That's why he looks silly.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Yea Djokovic was losing because Nadal was playing like something out of this world. It wasn't so much that he was doing a whole lot wrong, but Nadal was coming at him point after point, and he couldn't get on top of him and get some momentum until the 3rd set. Also, Djokovic played fine in the Tsonga match. There was nothing wrong with his level of play in that match. It was the Seppi match where was terrible. I don't see how you think Djokovic hitting more winners than Tsonga on clay, and having 10 more winners than errors means he played badly.

How is it exaggerated exactly? Federer never beat him or pushed him to a 5th set. Djokovic has pushed him deep into a 5th set when he was playing prime tennis.
Djokovic wasn't consistent enough when Nadal was playing well in RG 12 final.
I didn't say Djokovic was playing badly in the Tsonga match, but he wasn't great either. Unless you want to say a great Djokovic has to save 4 MPs in the 4th set vs Tsonga.
Tsonga who only played well for like 2.5 sets of the match (2nd half of 2nd set to 4th set end).
Tsonga played a horrible 1st and 5th set in that match. not that good in 1st half of 2nd set either.

the matchup difference at RG is exaggerated because:

a) Djokovic has won like 4 sets vs Nadal playing anywhere close to prime level at RG in these 6 matches(07,08,12,13,14,20). fed has 4 sets won vs nadal in 6 matches (05-08,11,19).
(Leaving out 06 RG for djoko as he was young and outside of top 10). This is with DJoko taking those 2 sets in RG 13 semi. A little bit more matchup of primes for fed. So will give Djoko the benefit of doubt here and say he gets 1 more set if there was better matchup of primes.

b) the 2nd closest was fed's RG 06 final in terms of score, not any match of Djokovic.
If we're looking at level, I'd put up 2007 RG final from fed up there as better than any match of Djokovic at RG vs anywhere near prime level Nadal, save arguably the 13 RG match.

If you want to say 11/13/16 RG Djoker would've played 06 RG rafa closer than fed did, be my guest. But 12 RG djoker including the final? nope.
 
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ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
Federer's problem was also between his ears tbh because his game per se was good enough to score a win or 2 against Nadal, even been in disadvantage with the matchup.Case in point Rome 2006, but the pressure got the better of him in the end.2006 and 2011 RG Finals were terrible missed opportunities :D
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
The 2012 AO was on Nadal's racket and he messed up. Djoker won it because Nadal made a stupid mistake. RG has never been on Djoker's racket when he played a decent version of Nadal. Of course Nadal is allowed to have some low points, he has 13 titles there. Kudos for djoker for showing up and taking advantage of the situation, but don't count that as "Djokovic beating Nadal at the FO" because it isn't. I feel we should compare prime to prime.
Actually 2012 AO and 2013 RG were mirror opposites.
Djokovic had an easy enough FH at 5-3 in the 4th set TB in AO 12 that'd have given him 3 MPs, but he missed.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
The 2012 AO was on Nadal's racket and he messed up. Djoker won it because Nadal made a stupid mistake. RG has never been on Djoker's racket when he played a decent version of Nadal. Of course Nadal is allowed to have some low points, he has 13 titles there. Kudos for djoker for showing up and taking advantage of the situation, but don't count that as "Djokovic beating Nadal at the FO" because it isn't. I feel we should compare prime to prime.
Yet you feel 2012 AO was on Nadal's racket and 2013 RG was never on Djokovic's racket. That shows your clear bias. There was a turning point in that RG match where Nadal regained control because Djokovic messed up that you're clearly leaving out just like there was in the 2012 AO one.
 

Thetouch

Professional
Sure he lost, but nobody has ever played Nadal on clay like Federer in 2006 in Rome. TBH, for Djokovic to beat Nadal in 2015 and in 2021 has very little merit. Nadal was a shadow of himself in both occasions.
My point is that Federer at his best still couldn't beat Nadal on clay when Nadal wasn't even in his prime yet. I don't know whether Rafa played badly or Djokovic played much better but the fact is that both times Djokovic beat Nadal when he had won RG for 5 and 4 years in a row. It's not like Nadal hadn't won RG in years either, so I give him credit for beating Nadal.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
My point is that Federer at his best still couldn't beat Nadal on clay when Nadal wasn't even in his prime yet. I don't know whether Rafa played badly or Djokovic played much better but the fact is that both times Djokovic beat Nadal when he had won RG for 5 and 4 years in a row. It's not like Nadal hadn't won RG in years either, so I give him credit for beating Nadal.
Nadal was at his prime on clay from 2005 itself. Well, unless you have watched tennis only from much later ;)
 
..Because Djoker is just better than Fed on clay and Nadal can't exploit Djoker's game on slow courts like he can Fed's. Nadal's topspin ruins Fed's Backhand. He cant do that to Djoker
 

Thetouch

Professional
Nadal was at his prime on clay from 2005 itself. Well, unless you have watched tennis only from much later ;)
You think the 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 version of Nadal couldn't beat the 2005-07 Nadal? lol He was stronger then.
 
My point is that Federer at his best still couldn't beat Nadal on clay when Nadal wasn't even in his prime yet. I don't know whether Rafa played badly or Djokovic played much better but the fact is that both times Djokovic beat Nadal when he had won RG for 5 and 4 years in a row. It's not like Nadal hadn't won RG in years either, so I give him credit for beating Nadal.
Nadal was in full prime on clay in 2006. His speed back then was at its peak. He was a different player, better in some things and worse in others. Credit to Djokovic for sticking around until the opportunity showed up.
 

Thetouch

Professional
Nadal was in full prime on clay in 2006. His speed back then was at its peak. He was a different player, better in some things and worse in others. Credit to Djokovic for sticking around until the opportunity showed up.
So let me ask you this: Nadal's prime either laster from 2005-2014 or from 2005-2008?
 
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