Why was Federer incapable of beating Nadal at RG, unlike Djokovic?

abmk

Bionic Poster
You think the 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 version of Nadal couldn't beat the 2005-07 Nadal? lol He was stronger then.
2007 Nadal > 11, 13 Nadal by a significant distance. LOLOLLL
2007 Nadal > 10 Nadal as well.
2007 Nadal and 12 Nadal are on similar level, give or take.

Anyways 10 Nadal is not so relevant here as neither fed or djokovic faced him at RG that year.

2006 Nadal surely better than 11 Nadal and similar level to 2013 Nadal
ditto for 2005 Nadal

etc. etc.

Anyone who thinks 11 Nadal isn't the worst Nadal on clay/at RG when talking about period from 05-13 doesn't know wtf he/she is talking about. saying 07 Nadal worse than 11 Nadal in particular is just asking to be laughed at.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Federer's problem is he was trash on clay at age 24 while Novak was great on clay at 24.

So God punished Federer by sending a teenage prodigy who at 19 could punish this trash (federer).

But when Novak was 24 that same prodigy was 25 and for some reasons Novak was belting him all over that year, so eventually God rewarded him with 2015 and 2021
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic wasn't consistent enough when Nadal was playing well in RG 12 final.
I didn't say Djokovic was playing badly in the Tsonga match, but he wasn't great either. Unless you want to say a great Djokovic has to save 4 MPs in the 4th set vs Tsonga.
Tsonga who only played well for like 2.5 sets of the match (2nd half of 2nd set to 4th set end).
Tsonga played a horrible 1st and 5th set in that match. not that good in 1st half of 2nd set either.

the matchup difference at RG is exaggerated because:

a) Djokovic has won like 4 sets vs Nadal playing anywhere close to prime level at RG in these 6 matches(07,08,12,13,14,20). fed has 4 sets won vs nadal in 6 matches (05-08,11,19).
(Leaving out 06 RG for djoko as he was young and outside of top 10). This is with DJoko taking those 2 sets in RG 13 semi. A little bit more matchup of primes for fed. So will give Djoko the benefit of doubt here and say he gets 1 more set if there was better matchup of primes.

b) the 2nd closest was fed's RG 06 final in terms of score, not any match of Djokovic.
If we're looking at level, I'd put up 2007 RG final from fed up there as better than any match of Djokovic at RG vs anywhere near prime level Nadal, save arguably the 13 RG match.

If you want to say 11/13/16 RG Djoker would've played 06 RG rafa closer than fed did, be my guest. But 12 RG djoker including the final? nope.
Tsonga played the greatest clay match of his career that day, which you are leaving out and downplaying. That's why he had 4 match points and why Djokovic had to fight him off, which he did brilliantly down the stretch. If we had to give out awards for who played brought the highest level at any point in 2012 RG, it would be (1) Nadal, (2) Djokovic and (3) Tsonga in gold, silver and bronze.

Ok and you're deliberately leaving out 2021 because..? Nadal was killing Djokovic in the beginning stages of that match and was up 5-0 before Djokovic brought the goods and turned that around. That 3rd set alone makes that match memorable so to leave that match out shows the agenda here, and to say Federer's performance in the 2007 final is better than Djokovic's in the 2012 final also shows an agenda. For one, the stats don't agree with your assessment. At the very least, you can only say they're on the same level.

Djokovic absolutely would have played 2006 Nadal closer because 2012 Djokovic reached a higher peak at RG but you can believe whatever you need to.
 
So let me ask you this: Nadal's prime either laster from 2005-2014 or from 2005-2008?
It doesn't work like that. Prime is not peak. Prime doesn't need to be a focused uninterrupted period of time. If you have watched Nadal in 2006 saying he wasn't prime makes no sense.
 

Quaichang

Rookie
Federer has a 0-6 record against Nadal at RG, never took more than 1 set off him in a match. Djokovic has a 2-7 record and 1 of those losses was an extremely close 5 setter that he could have won. Why was Federer so poor against Nadal at RG, whereas Djokovic has done reasonably well?
I think he didn’t have the belief.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Federer being really mediocre from 00-03 period has actually cost him dearly in the form of a next gen prodigy who arrived to punish Federer.
Had Federer's level on clay in 03 been the same as it was in 06 then he would have been equipped to take the 05 and 06 french opens at least, 07 onwards it was not possible to beat Nadal no matter what due to his age gap and the backhand.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Tsonga played the greatest clay match of his career that day, which you are leaving out and downplaying. That's why he had 4 match points and why Djokovic had to fight him off, which he did brilliantly down the stretch. If we had to give out awards for who played brought the highest level at any point in 2012 RG, it would be (1) Nadal, (2) Djokovic and (3) Tsonga in gold, silver and bronze.
no, he didn't. Tsonga played better next year vs fed at 2013 RG for example. Granted he was playing a clearly inferior opponent, but he had no significant dips in that match unlike in 12 RG QF where he was terrible for 2 sets and meh at best for another half a set.
Yeah, credit to Djoko for those 4 saved MPs, but if he was playing really well, it wouldn't have come to that in the first place.

Ok and you're deliberately leaving out 2021 because..? Nadal was killing Djokovic in the beginning stages of that match and was up 5-0 before Djokovic brought the goods and turned that around. That 3rd set alone makes that match memorable so to leave that match out shows the agenda here, and to say Federer's performance in the 2007 final is better than Djokovic's in the 2012 final also shows an agenda. For one, the stats don't agree with your assessment.
because Nadal wasn't anywhere close to prime level in RG 21.
Good 1st set, below par 2nd set, horrible 4th set. decent 3rd set by purely level, above decent due to fight. But that's 2 good sets level wise from Nadal out of 4.
Memorable set ! = high level from a player necessarily.

Your agenda is completely deny that Nadal was comfortably bossing Djokovic around in RG 12 final apart from that stretch of 8 games. Doing that you come to the conclusion that Djoko of RG 12 final was better than fed of RG 07 final, lol.

Djokovic absolutely would have played 2006 Nadal closer because 2012 Djokovic reached a higher peak at RG but you can believe whatever you need to.
sure, pal. sure,, keep dreaming.
Fed also took the 1st set vs 06 RG nadal 6-1 playing at a high level - in case you forgot - just like you forgot delpo played fed in USO 17.
 

Sunny014

Legend
You think the 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 version of Nadal couldn't beat the 2005-07 Nadal? lol He was stronger then.
Doesn't matter if 08 version can beat 05 version or not

Regardless of that, both 05 and 08 versions would beat all versions of Novak
 

Thetouch

Professional
2007 Nadal > 11, 13 Nadal by a significant distance. LOLOLLL
2007 Nadal > 10 Nadal as well.
2007 Nadal and 12 Nadal are on similar level, give or take.

Anyways 10 Nadal is not so relevant here as neither fed or djokovic faced him at RG that year.

2006 Nadal surely better than 11 Nadal and similar level to 2013 Nadal
ditto for 2005 Nadal

etc. etc.

Anyone who thinks 11 Nadal isn't the worst Nadal on clay/at RG when talking about period from 05-13 doesn't know wtf he/she is talking about. saying 07 Nadal worse than 11 Nadal in particular is just asking to be laughed at.
So let me get this straight for future referrences: Federer's prime/peak whatever you like to call it was from 2004-2007 and since 2008 he has been a granpa yet Nadal's prime also only lasted from 2005-2007? Yet in 2012 he was similar to 2007 and 2006 similar to 2013 even though he was worse in 2010 and 2011? :laughing:

Man talking to guys who contradict themselves only so their favourite player looks good is the greatest thing in this pace lol
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
So let me get this straight for future referrences: Federer's prime/peak whatever you like to call it was from 2004-2007 and since 2008 he has been a granpa yet Nadal's prime also only lasted from 2005-2007? Yet in 2012 he was similar to 2007 and 2006 similar to 2013 even though he was worse in 2010 and 2011? :laughing:

Man talking to guys who contradict themselves only so their favourite player looks good is the greatest thing in this pace lol
fed's prime was from YEC 03 to AO 10.
prime is not the same as peak.

But then you got to have some sense and watch some tennis for some time to actually know that.

when on earth did I say Nadal's prime only lasted from 05-07? nothing Isaid remotely suggests that.
 

Thetouch

Professional
It doesn't work like that. Prime is not peak. Prime doesn't need to be a focused uninterrupted period of time. If you have watched Nadal in 2006 saying he wasn't prime makes no sense.
It's because you guys keep moving the prime/peak nonsense. If Nadal was already in his prime in 2006 then he never got out of it until 2014 and then still beat almost everybody until 2020. This discussion is too comical
 

Biotic

Hall of Fame
Djokovic is an opportunist but his fans can't accept the truth
You should show more respect for Djokovic who is essentially the reason your guy even has a RG title and 1/2 wins over Nadal on clay.

No 2009 Madrid SF consequences leave the mighty Fed on 0 RGs, 0 Rome and 0 MCs. And 1 measly win over Nadal on what is arguably not even a real clay in Lolburg.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
You should show more respect for Djokovic who is essentially the reason your guy even has a RG title and 1/2 wins over Nadal on clay.

No 2009 Madrid SF consequences leave the mighty Fed on 0 RGs, 0 Rome and 0 MCs. And 1 measly win over Nadal on what is arguably not even a real clay in Lolburg.
So Nadal is simultaenously both a beast on clay and yet glasslike that a 4 hr match vs Djoko causes so much problems.

LOL, delusional Djokovic fan.

nadal wasn't that great vs Verdasco at Madrid either. there's more than decent chance fed beats him at Madrid 09 with or without semi. difference in match was fed going 2/2 on BPs and nadal going 0/4 on BPs.

fed only needs to thank 2 guys for RG 09 - one is himself and other is Soderling, but a crazyBot like you ...
 
It's because you guys keep moving the prime/peak nonsense. If Nadal was already in his prime in 2006 then he never got out of it until 2014 and then still beat almost everybody until 2020. This discussion is too comical
Yes, because Nadal is the undisputed best player on clay ever, and his level needs to be abysmal for Djokovic to be able to beat him. Tactically he was better in 2012 than in 2006, but in 2006 he was twice the athlete and fast as lightining.
 

Thetouch

Professional
fed's prime was from YEC 03 to AO 10.
prime is not the same as peak.

But then you got to have some sense and watch some tennis for some time to actually know that.

when on earth did I say Nadal's prime only lasted from 05-07? nothing Isaid remotely suggests that.
You still keep contradicting yourself because you put Nadal in his prime in certain years to prove your point and put him out again in other years. The fact is that Federer at his best couldn't beat Nadal and there is no way 21 year old Nadal is physically and mentally better than his 24-28 version of himself. If you believe that then you are obviously biased. lol
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
You still keep contradicting yourself because you put Nadal in his prime in certain years to prove your point and put him out again in other years. The fact is that Federer at his best couldn't beat Nadal and there is no way 21 year old Nadal is physically and mentally better than his 24-28 version of himself. If you believe that then you are obviously biased. lol
2007 RG nadal is arguably best version at RG apart from RG 2008 (RG 2007 Nadal about even with 2012 RG Nadal).
Its laughable to even compare 11/13 RG nadal with RG 07 Nadal.
07 Nadal clearly faster than 10-13 Nadal. Only in 12 he had sufficient controlled aggression with consistency to make it on par with 07 Nadal. 11/13 nowhere near that. 10 still lesser than 07 Nadal.
Its obvious you haven't watched or you are just out to troll here.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
no, he didn't. Tsonga played better next year vs fed at 2013 RG for example. Granted he was playing a clearly inferior opponent, but he had no significant dips in that match unlike in 12 RG QF where he was terrible for 2 sets and meh at best for another half a set.
Yeah, credit to Djoko for those 4 saved MPs, but if he was playing really well, it wouldn't have come to that in the first place.



because Nadal wasn't anywhere close to prime level in RG 21.
Good 1st set, below par 2nd set, horrible 4th set. decent 3rd set by purely level, above decent due to fight. But that's 2 good sets level wise from Nadal out of 4.
Memorable set ! = high level from a player necessarily.

Your agenda is completely deny that Nadal was comfortably bossing Djokovic around in RG 12 final apart from that stretch of 8 games. Doing that you come to the conclusion that Djoko of RG 12 final was better than fed of RG 07 final, lol.



sure, pal. sure,, keep dreaming.
Fed also took the 1st set vs 06 RG nadal 6-1 playing at a high level - in case you forgot - just like you forgot delpo played fed in USO 17.
This again? Which is a ridiculous point of view. Federer's serve was pitiful in that match, where he couldn't hit one ace, and he could only win 26% of return points on clay. This same Tsonga got destroyed by Ferrer in the next round. So much for being his best ever level.

No matter how it's twisted, 2021 RG would go down as one of Djokovic greatest SF victories and one of his greatest Slam wins, especially considering he got destroyed by this same "over the hill" player 8 months prior and was getting destroyed in the 1st set in this match. Only on TTW will the opposite be true.

I already said Nadal was beating Djokovic in the 2012 match because he was outplaying him, but it was closer than the score showed which is apparent since when the match was suspended at 2-1 in the 4th, they had both won 97 points each and broke each other's serve 7 times. Federer in 2007 RG missed how many breakpoint opportunities? 16 out of 17?

Yea because Nadal played a bad a set as you will ever see at RG and Federer still didn't push that Nadal to 5 sets. But yea Djokovic 2012, the player who matches up the best against Nadal on clay, wouldn't have made that match closer. Ok.
 

Thetouch

Professional
Yes, because Nadal is the undisputed best player on clay ever, and his level needs to be abysmal for Djokovic to be able to beat him. Tactically he was better in 2012 than in 2006, but in 2006 he was twice the athlete and fast as lightining.
That's like saying 1981 McEnroe was better than 1984 McEnroe because he was a better athlete then
 

Thetouch

Professional
2007 RG nadal is arguably best version at RG apart from RG 2008 (RG 2007 Nadal about even with 2012 RG Nadal).
Its laughable to even compare 11/13 RG nadal with RG 07 Nadal.
07 Nadal clearly faster than 10-13 Nadal. Only in 12 he had sufficient controlled aggression with consistency to make it on par with 07 Nadal. 11/13 nowhere near that. 10 still lesser than 07 Nadal.
Its obvious you haven't watched or you are just out to troll here.
It's obvious you have no clue how to rate players and levels. Being faster at a younger age doesn't make you better. But these are things you don't even seem to undestand.
 
You still keep contradicting yourself because you put Nadal in his prime in certain years to prove your point and put him out again in other years. The fact is that Federer at his best couldn't beat Nadal and there is no way 21 year old Nadal is physically and mentally better than his 24-28 version of himself. If you believe that then you are obviously biased. lol
Djokovic has been blessed with good timing. Up to 2010 pretty much Nadal and Fed cancelled each other while Djokovic didn't waste himself. Fed always had the matchup issue with Nadal, and the age difference has been a big handicap for him for the last 10 years or so against both. Nadal has had increasingly frequent physical problems, and had to deal with both prime Fed and prime Djokovic, whereas Djokovic has taken advantage of his superiority and better physical conditioning in the second half of his career, plus a very weak field. Add to this some very fortunate results (like 2011 USO SF, 2012 AO, 2019 Wim, etc) Of course, he is still one of the greatest ever, and what he has done can't be overemphasized (full Masters resume, success at the WTF, etc). But many things have gone Djokovic's way to get where he is now, he has definitely been more fortunate than Fed or Nadal because of the way circumstances presented.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
This again? Which is a ridiculous point of view. Federer's serve was pitiful in that match, where he couldn't hit one ace, and he could only win 26% of return points on clay. This same Tsonga got destroyed by Ferrer in the next round. So much for being his best ever level.
yes, ditto for fed in RG 12 semi regarding the serving, but you won't talk about that, will you? next match vs Ferrer is irrelevant given how up and down Tsonga is.
Two horrible sets from tsonga (1st and 5th) and meh half of 2nd set - in his best RG match/clay match ever instead of a match where he played well from start to finish in RG 13 QF ? LOL.

No matter how it's twisted, 2021 RG would go down as one of Djokovic greatest SF victories and one of his greatest Slam wins, especially considering he got destroyed by this same "over the hill" player 8 months prior and was getting destroyed in the 1st set in this match. Only on TTW will the opposite be true.
in terms of greatness, yes, given Djokovic's age. But Nadal wasn't anywhere close to prime level and you can continue to live in a river of denial.

I already said Nadal was beating Djokovic in the 2012 match but it was closer than the score showed which is apparent since when the match was suspended at 2-1 in the 4th, they had both won 97 points each and broke each other's serve 7 times. Federer in 2007 RG missed how many breakpoint opportunities? 16 out of 17?
yet, fed levelled at 1 all. wasn't down 2 sets to love.
Djokovic's stretch of 8 games gives a false impression of closeness in RG 12 in terms of points. Nadal dominated in 1st 2 sets and being a break up.
Again, Nadal broke twice to take the 4th set next day. didn't even go to a TB.
Nadal saved the vast majority of those BPs in RG 07. It wasn't like Wim 08 final.

Yea because Nadal played a bad a set as you will ever see at RG and Federer still didn't push that Nadal to 5 sets. But yea Djokovic 2012, the player who matches up the best against Nadal on clay, wouldn't have made that match closer. Ok.
lol, Nadal's played far worse sets at RG. exhibit 1: RG 15 QF 3rd set, exhibit 2: RG 21 SF 4th set.
and Nadal played well in that match after the 1st set.
yes, RG 12 djokovic wouldn't have made it closer because he wasn't at his best. 11/13/16 RG djokovic probably would have.
But your agenda is to considerably over-rate 12 RG djokovic. so....
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
It's obvious you have no clue how to rate players and levels. Being faster at a younger age doesn't make you better. But these are things you don't even seem to undestand.
LOLOLOLOLOLLLL, says the absolutely clueless guy/fresh new green troll.
 

Thetouch

Professional
LOLOLOLOLOLLLL, says the absolutely clueless guy/fresh new green troll.
Says the guy who can't explain why Federer couldn't beat Nadal even in 2005 before Nadal's "prime" started and also not in 2008 or 2011 when Nadal was worse than in 2006 and 2007 even though Federer was still in his prime - that's all your words. lol
 

Sunny014

Legend
@Thetouch : FYI

Prime :

Federer : 2003 W till 2010 USO (age 22 till age 28.5 )
Nadal : 05 FO till 2014 FO ( age 19 till age 28 )
Djokovic : 2007 USO till 2016 USO (age 20 till age 29 )

Peak :

Federer : 03TMC till 2010 USO (22 to 28.5)
Nadal : 07USO till 2014FO (21 to 28)
Djokovic : USO2010 till 2016FO (23 to 29)

Absolute 12 months Peak in terms of ATP points :

Federer : 15,903 Points ( 20-11-2006 ) - So this means the year 2006 .... Second best period 2007 when he touched 13K+ points .... Third best 2005 and fourth best 04
Nadal : 15390 Points ( 20-04-2009 ) - So this means 2008FO till 2009FO.... Second best period 2010 year .... Third best 2013 ..... Fourth best? ... well no idea, he was mediocre outside these periods
Djokovic : 16,950 Points ( 06-06-2016 ) - So this means 2015W till 2016FO ... Second best period 2011 when he touched 13k+ points .... third best 2021 and fourth best 12
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Says the guy who can't explain why Federer couldn't beat Nadal even in 2005 before Nadal's "prime" started and also not in 2008 or 2011 when Nadal was worse than in 2006 and 2007 even though Federer was still in his prime - that's all your words. lol
I said Nadal was at his prime on clay in 05. Learn to read.
08 was best version of Nadal. Again, learn to read.
yes, fed did fail to beat Nadal at RG 11, a significant portion of the blame goes to him mentally.
But hey, he did beat Djokovic at RG 11, so there's that. :)
 

Thetouch

Professional
I said Nadal was at his prime on clay in 05. Learn to read.
08 was best version of Nadal. Again, learn to read.
yes, fed did fail to beat Nadal at RG 11, a significant portion of the blame goes to him mentally.
But hey, he did beat Djokovic at RG 11, so there's that. :)
I focused on your first "prime" post so I didn't see the 2008 referrence. And then again, that's what I asked in the beginning, I asked whether Nadal's prime was from 2005-2014 or 2005-2008? Because you kept making differences about certain years and it doesn't work like that. He either has a straight prime or this whole prime discussion is pointless.
 

Thetouch

Professional
@Thetouch : FYI

Prime :

Federer : 2003 W till 2010 USO (age 22 till age 28.5 )
Nadal : 05 FO till 2014 FO ( age 19 till age 28 )
Djokovic : 2007 USO till 2016 USO (age 20 till age 29 )

Peak :

Federer : 03TMC till 2010 USO (22 to 28.5)
Nadal : 07USO till 2014FO (21 to 28)
Djokovic : USO2010 till 2016FO (23 to 29)



Nadal's prime 2005-2014 - that's what I said/asked about
 

Kralingen

Hall of Fame
@Thetouch : FYI

Prime :

Federer : 2003 W till 2010 USO (age 22 till age 28.5 )
Nadal : 05 FO till 2014 FO ( age 19 till age 28 )
Djokovic : 2007 USO till 2016 USO (age 20 till age 29 )

Peak :

Federer : 03TMC till 2010 USO (22 to 28.5)
Nadal : 07USO till 2014FO (21 to 28)
Djokovic : USO2010 till 2016FO (23 to 29)

Absolute 12 months Peak in terms of ATP points :

Federer : 15,903 Points ( 20-11-2006 ) - So this means the year 2006 .... Second best period 2007 when he touched 13K+ points .... Third best 2005 and fourth best 04
Nadal : 15390 Points ( 20-04-2009 ) - So this means 2008FO till 2009FO.... Second best period 2010 year .... Third best 2013 ..... Fourth best? ... well no idea, he was mediocre outside these periods
Djokovic : 16,950 Points ( 06-06-2016 ) - So this means 2015W till 2016FO ... Second best period 2011 when he touched 13k+ points .... third best 2021 and fourth best 12
Think you’ve gone a bit too long on the peak years (Federer’s peak ended in ‘08 imo, Nadal’s ended after AO’14, Djokovic probably correct) but otherwise great list
 

Imperator

Hall of Fame
Because he faced Nadal between 2005 and 2011. He was impossible to beat at RG back then, even more so for someone who has a big matchup issue with him like Federer does. Even Djokovic couldn’t beat this Nadal and his first win happened at 2015 RG, which is very obviously the worst version ever of Nadal at RG.

Yes, Federer faced Nadal in 2019 but this version of him was significantly better than in 2015 or 2021. Plus age and matchup issue, of course.
 
Nadal's prime begun in 2005, at least as a clay courter

Nadal himself has said that pretty much the starting point of him as a great dominant player was losing badly the 2005 Buenos Aires final to Gaudio because of mental reasons, like getting affected by the crowd cheering Gaudio. He lost 60 06 16. That was his "never again" turning point.
That was his last bad loss on clay. After that he never had a bad loss on clay ever again and always beat players he used to lose to (on clay).
The next 2 times he played Gaudio that year he won 6360 and 636364
 

Sunny014

Legend
Think you’ve gone a bit too long on the peak years (Federer’s peak ended in ‘08 imo, Nadal’s ended after AO’14, Djokovic probably correct) but otherwise great list
Absolute peak of players is smaller...

Federer's was from 04 till 07
Nadal's was from 07 till 2010
Novak's was 2011-2016 with gap in between 12-14 for some 2 years when he was trash.

But that trash period of Novak has to be included in his peak tally and same for year 09 which has to be included, just became Mono weakened Federer in 08 and brought down his level doesn't mean that can be excluded, same for Nadal, we might have to include 11-13 as well since he was physically still at his peak level but injuries were slowing down, by 2014FO he was finished.... So this peak period is a grey area, many people will ask why Fed's peak ended so quickly in 07 but then he was good in 09 too, this was due to Mono lowering his level and rest of the field also getting powerful in this period and so the gap was filled in, Federer like a dumbass hired some loser called Annacone instead of hiring an ATG to sort out this problem, perhaps it was too shameful to the GOAT to ask someone beneath him like Boris Becker/Lendl for help ???

Federer should have gone to Ivan Lendl who was the original pioneer and mastermind of changing racquets and adapting, but Federer chose to be an absolute loser from 2010 till 2013, his post peak period could have been like a second peak of Novak types ..... This could have been extended till 2012 or even till 2015
 

BauerAlmeida

Professional
People say Federer faced a superior Nadal, that's not quite true. In 2011 Nadal was beatable, as Djokovic himself shown, and Federer failed to take advantage. The same thing in 2005, Nadal was up and coming, Federer was dominating the tour. He had the experience of being a slam winner multiple times while Nadal was going far for the first time at a slam.

To deny that Djokovic is much better than Federer at facing Nadal on clay is ridiculous. Even excluding the two wins, he was closer in 2013 than Federer ever was. In 2012 he was a break up to take it to a fifth, probably closer than Federer ever was too. And in 2014 he was closer as well, or at least somewhat there. Pick Federer's best performance against Nadal and you have several performances by Djokovic that were better or at the same level.

A peak Djokovic, 2011 or 2015, beats a young 2005 Nadal.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Roger Federer is the perfect example of an arrogant man who ruined his legacy.

He wasted his 01-03 period after beating Pete as noted by @Jason Swerve, his training with Martinka was incomplete... ?
Then after touching top gear he had a lot of success for 4-5 years and the media declared him the GOAT by the ending of 07, instead of staying grounded and getting better to tackle the Nadal problem he did nothing concrete in -08-09, then after he broke Sampras's record he was so much drunk in GOAThood that he felt it beneath him to approach an ATG like Lendl/Becker to help him on how to adapt to new racquets, perhaps he thought what do these guys know that I don't already know?
By 2014 he changed his equipment but it was too late by then, Novak was already taking tutions from Becker and it was too late, Djokovic was well on his way towards being Federer's successor.
 
People say Federer faced a superior Nadal, that's not quite true. In 2011 Nadal was beatable, as Djokovic himself shown, and Federer failed to take advantage. The same thing in 2005, Nadal was up and coming, Federer was dominating the tour. He had the experience of being a slam winner multiple times while Nadal was going far for the first time at a slam.

To deny that Djokovic is much better than Federer at facing Nadal on clay is ridiculous. Even excluding the two wins, he was closer in 2013 than Federer ever was. In 2012 he was a break up to take it to a fifth, probably closer than Federer ever was too. And in 2014 he was closer as well, or at least somewhat there. Pick Federer's best performance against Nadal and you have several performances by Djokovic that were better or at the same level.

A peak Djokovic, 2011 or 2015, beats a young 2005 Nadal.
The bolded doesn't really mean much, especially given hindsight.
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
Please explain how Djokovic beat Nadal at Madrid11, Rome11, MC13 and Rome14? Federer only has Hamburg07 if we are counting Nadal's RG winning seasons.
First three are legit great wins but Nadal was kinda garbage for his standards in the 2014 clay season barring RG (which was even still a bit below his best).
 

Thetouch

Professional
Nadal won 11 titles on clay and had like 88.8% win record that year, if he is not at his prime then when was he in his prime ?

It is common sense that nadal was in his prime in 05
Prime and peak are often loose definitions in this context. I could have said peak instead but I don't see 2005-2007 Nadal beating 2011-2016 Djokovic as easily as people may think here. The Djokovic who went 5 sets in 2013 against Nadal could have finished the Nadal of 2005 and 2006 off in a 5 setter. That's why I said the Nadal of 2010-2014 is underrated.
 

Sunny014

Legend
A peak Djokovic, 2011 or 2015, beats a young 2005 Nadal.


Why will Novak 11 beat Nadal 05 ? They are of the same age, what was Novak doing in 05 or 06 or in 07 or 08 ? These sort of logics don't work that a future version beats old version.

Your logic is like Student A at class 11 is better at Maths than Student B was at class 6, but then you forgot that Student A and B are in same class and from childhood till university A was better than B, so giving logics of comparing different ages to prove superiority is silly.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Prime and peak are often loose definitions in this context. I could have said peak instead but I don't see 2005-2007 Nadal beating 2011-2016 Djokovic as easily as people may think here. The Djokovic who went 5 sets in 2013 against Nadal could have finished the Nadal of 2005 and 2006 off in a 5 setter. That's why I said the Nadal of 2010-2014 is underrated.
If Nadal was an all courter and Federer never existed then Nadal's 2005 year could have been a 2 or 3 slam year for Nadal.

Nadal was bad outside Clay in 05-06, his problem was not physical, he was physically good enough to crush anyone on any court.
 

Thetouch

Professional
If Nadal was an all courter and Federer never existed then Nadal's 2005 year could have been a 2 or 3 slam year for Nadal.

Nadal was bad outside Clay in 05-06, his problem was not physical, he was physically good enough to crush anyone on any court.
I was talking about RG only
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
People say Federer faced a superior Nadal, that's not quite true. In 2011 Nadal was beatable, as Djokovic himself shown, and Federer failed to take advantage. The same thing in 2005, Nadal was up and coming, Federer was dominating the tour. He had the experience of being a slam winner multiple times while Nadal was going far for the first time at a slam.

To deny that Djokovic is much better than Federer at facing Nadal on clay is ridiculous. Even excluding the two wins, he was closer in 2013 than Federer ever was. In 2012 he was a break up to take it to a fifth, probably closer than Federer ever was too. And in 2014 he was closer as well, or at least somewhat there. Pick Federer's best performance against Nadal and you have several performances by Djokovic that were better or at the same level.

A peak Djokovic, 2011 or 2015, beats a young 2005 Nadal.
Good points but I think 2006 Nadal was more beatable than he was in 2005. I think he played a higher level in 2005 at RG than 2006. They are also implying Nadal wasn't as good after 2010 or so which is false. In 2012, Nadal didn't lose a set on red clay to anyone at all until the RG final. He was beyond dominant in 2012 and crushed Djokovic at both Rome and MC. He was also lethal in 2013 as well and played insane in that 5th set. Of course on TTW, hypothetical Federer is always better than Djokovic.
 

Thetouch

Professional
Nadal won 11 titles on Clay in 05.
He was at a level which is higher than the peak of other players.
His speed was like Usain Bolt.



Videos don't work but It's the quality, not the quantity that counts. That's why to me the 2008+ Nadal was stronger than his younger version in RG.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Prime and peak are often loose definitions in this context. I could have said peak instead but I don't see 2005-2007 Nadal beating 2011-2016 Djokovic as easily as people may think here. The Djokovic who went 5 sets in 2013 against Nadal could have finished the Nadal of 2005 and 2006 off in a 5 setter. That's why I said the Nadal of 2010-2014 is underrated.
Same reply to you that I gave to @BauerAlmeida

Novak 11-16 cannot beat Nadal 05-07 because they are just 11 months apart.
If you are bad at maths then you cannot claim that your class 11 version will beat your superior classmate's class 6 version, such logics r pointless.
 
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