Why was it harder for Djokovic to defeat Federer at Cincy than it was to defeat Nadal at clay masters

[Hitman]

The final masters title that Djokovic won was Cincinnati, finally getting past Federer there.

Despite Nadal being the more dominant single surface player, Djokovic had beat Nadal in the finals of Monte Carlo, Madrid and Rome by 2013, yet Federer kept holding Djokovic back. Federer stopped him in 2009, 2012 and 2015 in the finals, and it was finally in 2018 that Djokovic got over the final hurdle. Basically Federer at Cincinnati turned out to be the toughest and most challenging obstacle for Djokovic to deal with for his quest to complete the set.

Now, we often hear that Novak isn't good on fast courts, that simply isn't true, he has been over the course of his career the second best on fast hard courts, only behind Federer. Was the uber aggressive style, the ability to rob Novak of time, or simply that for Novak, Federer at Cincinnati was the toughest challenge he could face outside the slams....it goes without saying that Novak would have more than likely completed the set a while back if Fed was not standing in his way so often.

 

[Nadal_Django]

 

[mike danny]

Simple answer: Fed is a better fast court player and his quick playstyle works like magic on fast HC even when Djokovic was in his prime and Fed in his 30's.

 

[ForehandRF]

It's hard to answer, but I remember Djokovic saying after the 2015 final that he has to wait for Fed to retire so he can win the title after
Fed has been a beast in Cincy, after all he won the title 2 times without dropping his serve.

Meanwhile Nadal got Fed in 2013, their only meeting at the USO series.

 

[mike danny]

I remember Djokovic saying after the 2015 final that he has to wait for Fed to retire so he can win the title after
Fed has been a beast in Cincy, after all he won the title 2 times without dropping his serve

Meanwhile Nadal got Fed in 2013, their only meeting at the USO series.

Luckdal.

 

[Hitman]

Simple answer: Fed is a better fast court player and his quick playstyle works like magic on fast HC even when Djokovic was in his prime and Fed in his 30's.

But why did Djokovic struggle more with Federer at Cincinnati specifically, than he did with prime Nadal on clay at all three masters events, basically straight setting him in all those finals, is the real question.

 

[Tennis_Freak99]

Djokovic matches up well against Nadal, Federer matches up well against Djokovic, Nadal matches up well against Federer

 

[Hitman]

Djokovic matches up well against Nadal, Federer matches up well against Djokovic, Nadal matches up well against Federer

So this is the ideal example of showing that there is a match up in play, like rock, paper, scissors, maybe not as profound, but it is there.

 

[mike danny]

But why did Djokovic struggle more with Federer at Cincinnati specifically, than he did with prime Nadal on clay at all three masters events, basically straight setting him in all those finals, is the real question.

On one hand, Djokovic probably played better in those Nadal matches than in the Cincy ones.

On the other hand, Fed's playstyle troubles Djokovic more on fast courts where Djokovic can't grind him down like he can with Nadal on clay and his shotmaking ability is also worse than Fed's. Basically with Rafa on clay he can play more rallies, while Fed doesn't give him that time.

 

[-snake-]

All those losses happened when Joe was yet to evolve. Once he did, it was game over for Mr Pretty BH.

 

[Tennis_Freak99]

So this is the ideal example of showing that there is a match up in play, like rock, paper, scissors, maybe not as profound, but it is there.

Absolutely, it's not profound at all but those are the ideal game styles that each of them have struggled against. Guys with strong 2 handed BHs like Davydenko and Djokovic troubled him a lot. Novak against a single handed BH is always a tough contest starting from Fed, Wawarinka, Thiem etc. Federer's impediment against Nadal is pretty well known.

 

[InsideOut900]

But why did Djokovic struggle more with Federer at Cincinnati specifically, than he did with prime Nadal on clay at all three masters events, basically straight setting him in all those finals, is the real question.

Djoko is better on clay than fast HC and Federer is a (much) harder match-up.

The first part has been true since 2013 imo.

 

[mike danny]

Absolutely, it's not profound at all but those are the ideal game styles that each of them have struggled against. Guys with strong 2 handed BHs like Davydenko and Djokovic troubled him a lot. Novak against a single handed BH is always a tough contest starting from Fed, Wawarinka, Thiem etc. Federer's impediment against Nadal is pretty well known.

You can reduce the last one to single handed players struggle with Rafa.

 

[The Fedfather]

Fast courts like Cincy reward an agressive style of play which, despite him being a great player on fast HC, Djokovic is not nearly as in his element as Federer is there. Clay plays far more into Novak's defensive skills and he is more comfortable playing this way. Federer, on the other hand, is the perfect agressor, both skills and mindset are suited best to fast play.

 

[Cortana]

Federer seems to be the better true HC player than Djokovic.

Nadal is better on clay, Federer is better om HC/grass. But Djokovic being the 2nd best player of all time on all surfaces makes him the best overall and thus GOAT.

 

[weakera]

Even as an ancient, old man Federer still easily dispatched Djokovic on fast HC

 

[Krish0608]

Federer gives you no time and suffocates you. That works like magic on a fast court. Especially on courts like Shanghai and Cincy

 

[Krish0608]

Even as an ancient, old man Federer still easily dispatched Djokovic on fast HC

He was out to prove a point that day. Played out of his mind, just for that match alone, lol. Played mediocre in every other match in the tournament.

 

[Sunny014]

But why did Djokovic struggle more with Federer at Cincinnati specifically, than he did with prime Nadal on clay at all three masters events, basically straight setting him in all those finals, is the real question.

Cincinatti + Shanghai

Both places Novak struggled vs Federer

No one in the last 20 years is that good as him in these conditions, Federer reads the game the fastest among everyone, he will anticipate the move quicker, has fast hands.

However when the conditions are slower with more bounce then players have time to play their strokes, this is where Nadal and Novak somehow engage Fed into rallies and overpower him.

So slow conditons is Novak's strongpoint too and he is younger to Nadal, has the GOAT 2Hbackhand in the business, why will he struggle on clay?

 

[Sunny014]

If the whole tour was like the 90s having Cinci-Shanghai like conditions outside the roland garros then Novak would have much lesser slams, maybe less than half and Federer would have same or maybe more.

Plus the challengers would also change, the stock of guys like Roddick-Tsonga-John Isner-Berdych-karlovic types would all rise, they would look formidable vs Novak too in many years....

Nadal obv has his toy (red clay), once someone tampers with it then he is toast, lucky for him that has been constant

 

[ND-13]

Fed was truly venomous in HC, plain and simple that even his off peak versions are still good

i have not seen levels from another player for such long duration that Fed brought consistently 2004-07 on HC

 

[Sunny014]

I think Federer is even quicker than Pete Sampras in the fast courts

What do you guys feel?

In anticipation nobody is quicker than Fed, really quick reflexes

 

[Texas Tennis Fan]

If the whole tour was like the 90s having Cinci-Shanghai like conditions outside the roland garros then Novak would have much lesser slams, maybe less than half and Federer would have same or maybe more.

Plus the challengers would also change, the stock of guys like Roddick-Tsonga-John Isner-Berdych-karlovic types would all rise, they would look formidable vs Novak too in many years....

Nadal obv has his toy (red clay), once someone tampers with it then he is toast, lucky for him that has been constant

This sweeping generalization may have a seed of truth, but is very speculative. Djokovic would have changed his game to match the different conditions. He may have had fewer Slams, but you could say that about almost any player if you change conditions unless it is to their pet surface (Fed with more grass slams, Nadal with more clay slams).

 

[Sunny014]

This sweeping generalization may have a seed of truth, but is very speculative. Djokovic would have changed his game to match the different conditions. He may have had fewer Slams, but you could say that about almost any player if you change conditions unless it is to their pet surface (Fed with more grass slams, Nadal with more clay slams).

Djokovic will slowly adapt, I have no doubt about it, I would put my money on Novak to adapt than Nadal who would be clueless.
Maybe he would have to work on his serve a lot, donno how he would change his net play, he would hire some different coaches, change them I guess, would be interesting to see.

nadal would be a total fail ..... absolute 0

 

[beard]

1. They played "only" 4 matches there, so sample is quite small for proper conclusion

2. It's only 3:1, and not 5 or 6 to zero

3. Novak wasn't great in Cincinnati in general anyway, many had beaten him there, not only Federer...

4. Novak lost only once as favorite, in 2015...other two times he lost, he wasn't favorite...

5. So, not bad at all for Novak against Cincinnati goat...

 

[nolefam_2024]

Roger challenges by taking time away. Rafa challenges by grinding. Novak matches Rafa on rallies easily in bo3. To compensate for time is difficult.

 

[Sunny014]

Roger challenges by taking time away. Rafa challenges by grinding. Novak matches Rafa on rallies easily in bo3. To compensate for time is difficult.

Thats why Stan despite all of his so called Stanimal Hulk Modes has been trash vs Roger in every single match played outside clay, mind boggling but true, stan has no time to develop a way to win vs Roger, totally clueless....

 

[Third Serve]

Djokovic isn’t as good on faster hard courts like Cincinnati as he is on clay.

Also, Fed is a trickier matchup for him, especially on these sorts of surfaces.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Thats why Stan despite all of his so called Stanimal Hulk Modes has been trash vs Roger in every single match played outside clay, mind boggling but true, stan has no time to develop a way to win vs Roger, totally clueless....

Stan had Roger out in YEC until his wife heckled. But ok.

 

[Deleted member 743561]

Nadal matches up well against Federer

Erm, kind of tough to make this assertion when the oldest version of Federer repeatedly took Nadal to the cleaners.

Not much of a rivalry really.

 

[Sunny014]

Stan had Roger out in YEC until his wife heckled. But ok.

Yeah the first set was good.
Then he lost the plot.

 

[InsideOut900]

Erm, kind of tough to make this assertion when the oldest version of Federer repeatedly took Nadal to the cleaners.

Not much of a rivalry really.

I totally support the assertion Federer peaked into his mid 30's since he did stuff against Nadal he couldn't do in his prime age.

 

[Backspin1183]

I totally support the assertion Federer peaked into his mid 30's since he did stuff against Nadal he couldn't do in his prime age.

OS knows Fed played his best tennis in 2015.

 

[Kralingen]

Looking grim for the 'HC GOAT' if he's supposedly better on clay than he is on a Cincinnati fast court.

 

[Third Serve]

Looking grim for the 'HC GOAT' if he's supposedly better on clay than he is on a Cincinnati fast court.

And when a claycourter leads him both in titles and H2H on the most important HC Slam.

Them’s the facts, bud.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Looking grim for the 'HC GOAT' if he's supposedly better on clay than he is on a Cincinnati fast court.

Do I have permission to use the Harry Kane gif now? Check the latest news if you haven't already.

 

[Sunny014]

And when a claycourter leads him both in titles and H2H on the most important HC Slam.

Them’s the facts, bud.

Some black marks on Djokovic's HC GOAThood.

01. Bageled at Cincinatti
02. Had been impotent vs Fed at both Cincinatti and Shanghai.
03. Nadal of all people has more USOs and a winning H2H at the most important HC slam (H2Hs matter here because they r of same age group).
04. Lost thrice to Fed at USO and then narrowly avoided matchpoints and had to painfully pull match in 5 sets later one when Fed was like 29-30.
05. Lost to Moorey and Stan here at his peak, that is also not a great feeling

 

[Kralingen]

And when a claycourter leads him both in titles and H2H on the most important HC Slam.

Them’s the facts, bud.

He lost to Isner and Robredo in his peak years of 2013-14 lol some HC GOAT.

PETE would clearly smoke him on anything other than clay. Is Djokovic anything more than a taller Michael Chang in the 90s?

 

[Sunny014]

Taller Andre Agassi with a lot of mental toughness.

 

[swordtennis]

Djokovic was kinda designed to take down Nadal.
As djokovic stated Fed was the main driving force helping him to improve his game.
Also Fed was the mob boss of Cincy.

 

[InsideOut900]

Looking grim for the 'HC GOAT' if he's supposedly better on clay than he is on a Cincinnati fast court.

Neah, it says he is the HC GOAT while not even having fast HC as his 2nd best surface.

 

[Sunny014]

Federer seems to be the better true HC player than Djokovic.

Nadal is better on clay, Federer is better om HC/grass. But Djokovic being the 2nd best player of all time on all surfaces makes him the best overall and thus GOAT.

No human being can be second everywhere and be the GOAT or even a GOAT contender.

Djokovic is the best on slower HCs where he has the most time to play his massive returns, so that is his plus point and thats why he has 9 AOs.

Regarding faster HCs and Grass, yes he is the second best but he has plenty of slams here because of Federer not being of the same age as him, or else his slam counts here could have been like it is on clay, 1-2 slams here and there types.

On Clay as well he is the second best and the best guy happens to be in his generation, so he has just 2 slams on this surface.

 

[Sunny014]

If somebody is second everywhere then they will be like Connors/Lendl types, stuck on 8 slams.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Djoker is a slow to medium surface player. Same reason he couldn’t beat Fed on faster indoor Wimbledon grass 2012

 

[Sunny014]

Not just Federer, on a true fast court even Roddick is superior to Djokovic.

Even in 2010 a past his prime Roddick beat Djokovic at Cincinatti who was like at his peak (the 2011 novak had arrived by then).

 

[Sunny014]

Roddick has beat Hewitt, Murray and Dokovic at Cinci.

Only Rodgi troubled him there, poor guy has suffered a lot due to slow courts and being in the gen as the GOAT

 

[Kralingen]

Neah, it says he is the HC GOAT while not even having fast HC as his 2nd best surface.

Basel 2009 says otherwise.

I think some of the older guys like Tennis_Hands and tonylg would be frothing at the mouth here. This was sort of their entire MO - that the snail-slow HC was the only reason Djokovic could win anything over Federer. Actually no it was the age gap lol. The 6-1 H2H for Roger at Cincy/Shanghai is a compelling case though it has to be said.

I do think familiarity with the surface as well as what was a lackluster physical condition for Djokovic in 2011, 2012, 2014 off the top of my head in Cincy hurt him. The hot summer and Djokovic don't really mix in a way that I would say has a large effect.

But he was plain bad in 2015 and just got outplayed by Roger on faster surfaces more often than not.

 

[Sunny014]

Even Djokovic fans know that Federer is the actual GOAT outside clay.

But Roger has destroyed his legacy by losing those wimbledon finals and those USO matches.

He has no business losing them even in old age, totally ruined his legacy and allowed this imposter who is second best in this new millenium on non clay courts to actually build his resume and lead in stats

Shameful !!

 

[RaulRamirez]

Looking grim for the 'HC GOAT' if he's supposedly better on clay than he is on a Cincinnati fast court.

That's one way of looking at it. Here's another: Novak's HC credentials are solidified with 12 slams, a truckload of M1000s, 5 YECs, great winning percentage, etc. That he is also so terrific on clay (and grass) only speaks further to his greatness

 

[Kralingen]

That's one way of looking at it. Here's another: Novak's HC credentials are solidified with 12 slams, a truckload of M1000s, 5 YECs, great winning percentage, etc. That he is also so terrific on clay (and grass) only speaks further to his greatness

I wanted some Djokovic fans to call attention to some of those ATP finals wins but instead they took the safe route and said Clay was a better surface for him than fast HC

I think the 'Djokovic only good on slow HC' stuff is way overblown tbh. But Federer is quite obviously better on fast HC.