Why was Madrid Masters so controversial?

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
In the last elections in the Madrid region, Vox got 9.13% of the ballots cast. What proportion of votes has Meloni and Le Pen received, not to mention the Polish PIS and other Visegrad groups of countries?

The La Manada sentence was put forward to consultation to the Supreme Court in 2019.

The qualification and penalties differed greatly from those you refer to.:


The Supreme Court (TS) of Spain raised this Friday from 9 to 15 years in prison the sentence to the five men known as "La manada", considering that in the events that occurred in the festivities of San Fermin in 2016 there was a continuous crime of rape by the group on a young woman of 18 years.

The ruling of two previous courts had convicted them of sexual abuse but had acquitted them of the crime of rape, which had sparked a huge controversy and provoked large protest demonstrations in Spain.

The SC considers the legal qualification of the previous sentences to be incorrect because the story describes an "authentic intimidating scenario, in which the victim at no time consents to the sexual acts carried out by the defendants".

The decision of the SC, which is final and was taken unanimously, meant the reinstatement in prison of José Ángel Prenda, Jesús Escudero, Alfonso Jesús Cabezuelo, Antonio Manuel Guerrero and Ángel Boza, who had been on probation since June 2018.

In the case of Guerrero, the court sentenced him to two more years for a crime of robbery with intimidation by keeping the young woman's phone after the assault. In previous sentences, this fact brought him a fine for theft.


As for the surveys conducted by governments, I tend to think that they are biased to legitimize their legislative initiatives, as has recently occurred with the Consent Law, which has had the indeliberate consequence, thanks to the painful legal technique used in its elaboration, of releasing a large number of rapists from prison. Having an extreme left-wing party such as Podemos in the government, made up of inexperienced cadres, does not always ensure that good intentions achieve the desired results, however commendable.
First of all, I am a great fan of Spain. But as I wrote, Spain is not a "Machoism" country, but mentioning Madrid (9% is still a lot) as your only reference is not representative of Spain as a society, and then talking about France, Poland, or whatever is of no relevance to this discussion (both countries which are also Catholic have serious problems with misogyny too). I know the story about the wolf pack very well, but talking about that specific case and the legislative aspects of it is still not relevant in terms of the fact that denying that there are some serious issues with anti-feminism in Spain. Look, I'm not saying that things aren't getting better in Spain, but move outside af the big cities and you'll find some scary views on women and society. And talking about statistics, the article clearly states that there is a long way to go.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I can remember a controversy when Ian Tiriac was around. He was super controversial. But this year's Madrid Masters has been quite weird. Do you agree?
Controversy surrounding the Madrid Masters dates back to the transition from hardcourt to clay in 2009. A deal of some kind was made between Ion Tiriac, the owner and the ATP then headed by Etienne de Villiers to take Hamburg's place as one of the three spring clay Masters bumping down Hamburg to a 500 event (which it has been ever since). Madrid's former spot was then given to Shanghai to appease the Chinese after Shanghai lost the WTF to London. In all these dealings, Hamburg was the one that got shafted!
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
So far, there is no explanation from the tournament officials as to why the women's doubles players weren't allow to speak during the trophy presentation. I actutally don't blame the tournament if they just shut down the women because they were tired of all the b****ing and didn't want to hear anymore of it. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all," seems a completely unfamiliar adage to these players. A presentation ceremony is not the place to air dirty laundry/complaints.
I guess Feliciano Lopez would rather the ladies stay quiet and if anyone says anything he doesn't like he just silences them and embarrasses the tournament.
There has been a lot of discussion about these matters in several threads, but what is interesting on this forum is that it's been men discussing it. So it's mainly been posts about that these women should stop complaining and suck it up and whatnot. It's nice that people are able to discuss it on this forum but it does not change that it's been men discussing with men – meaning that it's been pretty unnuanced. Bottom line is that more or less none of us are able to really understand how this tournament has actually been perceived by women. Some of you might need to think about that before blurting out that WTA players should just shut up and eat their cake.
You're far better of just letting people air their opinions.

If you don't, you let a very sympathetic audience establish an even worse narrative on social media. Then it has a life of it's own, as "scandal" always will.

What Madrid really needs is an @Aussie Darcy or @Olli Jokinen type on staff as a consultant. Then you can ask them "hey, I'm thinking about recognizing Alcaraz and Sabelenkas birthdays. This is what I'm going to do. Do you see any issues here"? Then they can tell you about size of cakes and sexism. Things you'd never think about in a million years. Then you can decide if you want to make Sabelenka a cake the size of a house, or just scrap the whole thing.

It's really hard to anticipate what people might do in any given situation. So get people from all perspectives around you as consultants. It really doesn't matter if you agree with other people's perspectives / opinions. You just want to avoid scandal / have a good reputation.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
You're far better of just letting people air their opinions.

If you don't, you let a very sympathetic audience establish an even worse narrative on social media. Then it has a life of it's own, as "scandal" always will.

What Madrid really needs is an @Aussie Darcy or @Olli Jokinen type on staff as a consultant. Then you can ask them "hey, I'm thinking about recognizing Alcaraz and Sabelenkas birthdays. This is what I'm going to do. Do you see any issues here"? Then they can tell you about size of cakes and sexism. Things you'd never think about in a million years. Then you can decide if you want to make Sabelenka a cake the size of a house, or just scrap the whole thing.

It's really hard to anticipate what people might do in any given situation. So get people from all perspectives around you as consultants. It really doesn't matter if you agree with other people's perspectives / opinions. You just want to avoid scandal / have a good reputation.
Maybe a female consultant would be an even better idea.
 

_phantom

Hall of Fame
Those who pile on Feli should know that he doesn't have that much power. It's all IMG, he's just a face they needed. Last year Verdasco openly complained about Feli's inability to give wildcards to lower-ranked Spanish players.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Maybe a female consultant would be an even better idea.
Absolutely. Female, black, gay, Asian, Latino. And not just single people, but groups. There needs to be groups you can hire on a per issue or per event basis to make sure nothing you do is unintentionally offense. So they can decide amongst themselves how any given message or action will be interpreted in their demographic. So everything can be perfectly engineered. Then they can also be tasked with doing damage control if anything happens. All part of the fee.

But what really ends up happening is avoidance. It's far easier to do nothing. And if doing nothing offends people, it's much easier to talk your way out of that (most of the time, obviously not all the time).

Ironically, all of the "calling out" of the racists, sexists, homophonics, etc has the opposite of it's intended effect. What you do is avoid these groups all together. If you interact, you bend over backwards to do and say everything in an over the top (and usually insincere) manner to avoid any possibility of controversy and scandal. But the easiest way to avoid scandal is to avoid any group or person that could bring scandal to you altogether.

And that's the reality of where we are now. And look, I'm fine with the criticism this post will bring. It doesn't make it any less true.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
You are entitled to your opinion as a (probably) white middle-aged male. We don't have to agree.
Correct. But as a white middle aged male, I need to be aware of your opinion so as to not unintentionally offend you. If you unintentionally offend me, nobody cares (including me).

But really it's a game you can't hope to stay on top of. You can't hope to win. If someone targets you, saying "water is wet" can be engineered to be offensive. And once you're labeled sexist, racist, etc, nobody is going to know or care that you are being called sexist because you said "water is wet". They're just going to know that you're sexist.

The crime of the Madrid Masters wasn't giving Sabelenka a small cake. It was doing anything at all. If they did nothing, there is almost no chance of controversy. Then they just have to decide if they can acknowledge Alcarez. He's a countryman. And surely someone else in the draw had something that could have been celebrated. They just could have said that we weren't trying to recognize everyone. Just our new, young, Spanish hero in our own country. But if they didn't even want to take that much risk, they could have just scrapped the Alcarz celebration as well. That way they are sure to be safe. Full avoidance is almost always the safest. Small chance that Alcaraz is going to complain that they didn't recognize his birthday.

I'm sure you mean no harm by calling out everyone and everything you see. I'm sure you just think it's the right thing to do. But it does have predictable reactions from those you are calling out. Especially when you know their intention wasn't to be offensive.
 
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Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
Correct. But as a white middle aged male, I need to be aware of your opinion so as to not unintentionally offend you. If you unintentionally offend me, nobody cares (including me).

But really it's a game you can't hope to stay on top of. You can't hope to win. If someone targets you, saying "water is wet" can be engineered to be offensive. And once you're labeled sexist, racist, etc, nobody is going to know or care that you are being called sexist because you said "water is wet". They're just going to know that you're sexist.

The crime of the Madrid Masters wasn't giving Sabelenka a small cake. It was doing anything at all. If they did nothing, there is almost no chance of controversy. Then they just have to decide if they can acknowledge Alcarez. He's a countryman. And surely someone else in the draw had something that could have been celebrated. They just could have said that we weren't trying to recognize everyone. Just our new, young, Spanish hero in our own country. But if they didn't even want to take that much risk, they could have just scrapped the Alcarz celebration as well. That way they are sure to be safe. Full avoidance is almost always the safest. Small chance that Alcaraz is going to complain that they didn't recognize his birthday.

I'm sure you mean no harm by calling out everyone and everything you see. I'm sure you just think it's the right thing to do. But it does have predictable reactions from those you are calling out.
It was never about the cake. You are putting way too much into that part of the discussion. Basically, am I just observing the extreme reactions from *some* middle-aged white guys. The cake thing sparked a lot, yes. But most of all it sparked a lot of rage from middle aged white guys (I'm a middle-aged white guy, by the way) who really hate people pointing out things that may not suit their world view. And after all, what is more tiresome than men disussing women in an all-male environment (which this forum basically is)?

But nevermind, this thread is going to be deleted in a couple of hours anyway – even though it actually stayed on subject this time.
 

Impetus

Semi-Pro
Is Spain a Muslim or Christian country atm? :X3:
Vikings would never behave like a babbling, bumbling band of baboons like the crowd did In Madrid. We might drink all night, fight and prove ourself to Thor and Odin but we would always give the opponent a fighting chance. How the crowd behaved towards Rune was a disgraceful moment in the history of tennis.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
who really hate people pointing out things that may not suit their world view.
That seems to be a common theme.

As I said, I just need to be aware of differing worldviews and how saying and doing things that seem innocuous can be seen by the right person in the right situation as "disgusting".

And as there is no way of knowing all of this, avoidance, platitudes, flattering and pandering is always the best course of action. Basically, just doing whatever you can to be "Agreeable".

What I'm saying isn't exactly interesting or controversial. It's how most normal people navigate the world.
 

I get cramps

Semi-Pro
Basically, am I just observing the extreme reactions from *some* middle-aged white guys. . But most of all it sparked a lot of rage from middle aged white guys (I'm a middle-aged white guy, by the way) who really hate people pointing out things that may not suit their world view.
Not as yet spotted by the police.

I am afraid your weltanschauung disregards the emic/etic distinction, for it is manifest that you have only your own, and it is apodictic.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
Not as yet spotted by the police.

I am afraid your weltanschauung disregards the emic/etic distinction, for it is manifest that you have only your own, and it is apodictic.
It's Weltanschauung with a capital "W" if you really want to be pretentious. Yes, I speak German fluently.
.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
That seems to be a common theme.

As I said, I just need to be aware of differing worldviews and how saying and doing things that seem innocuous can be seen by the right person in the right situation as "disgusting".

And as there is no way of knowing all of this, avoidance, platitudes, flattering and pandering is always the best course of action. Basically, just doing whatever you can to be "Agreeable".

What I'm saying isn't exactly interesting or controversial. It's how most normal people navigate the world.
Is "most normal people" white middle aged men? Think about that. You can't claim to be "most normal people" just like that.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Is "most normal people" white middle aged men? Think about that. You can't claim to be "most normal people" just like that.
No, I think almost every "normal person" tries to be agreeable and avoid problems most of the time (nearly all of the time).

The exception is when being disagreeable causes problems for other people (and makes you look good). Or at least that's what you hope.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Is Spain a Muslim or Christian country atm? :X3:
Vikings would never behave like a babbling, bumbling band of baboons like the crowd did In Madrid. We might drink all night, fight and prove ourself to Thor and Odin but we would always give the opponent a fighting chance. How the crowd behaved towards Rune was a disgraceful moment in the history of tennis.

Hmmm.....don't think the Vikings gave the hapless monks of Lindisfarne Abbey "a fighting chance" or when then they hurled animal bones to kill the hapless Archbishop of Canterbury!! :cool:
 

I get cramps

Semi-Pro
First of all, I am a great fan of Spain. But as I wrote, Spain is not a "Machoism" country, but mentioning Madrid (9% is still a lot) as your only reference is not representative of Spain as a society, and then talking about France, Poland, or whatever is of no relevance to this discussion (both countries which are also Catholic have serious problems with misogyny too). I know the story about the wolf pack very well, but talking about that specific case and the legislative aspects of it is still not relevant in terms of the fact that denying that there are some serious issues with anti-feminism in Spain. Look, I'm not saying that things aren't getting better in Spain, but move outside af the big cities and you'll find some scary views on women and society. And talking about statistics, the article clearly states that there is a long way to go.

Not as yet spotted by the police.

I am afraid your weltanschauung disregards the emic/etic distinction, for it is manifest that you have only your own, and it is apodictic.

"Essentially, am I just noting the intense reactions of *a few* middle-aged white men. But, above all, it provoked an intense animosity from middle-aged white men (including myself, who happens to be a middle-aged white man) who cannot stand being told things that do not align with their perspective."

Per cominciare, potrebbe imparare a scrivere con chiarezza e con una punteggiatura corretta, poi potremo discutere se sono stato pretenzioso o meno.
 

Serve&Bash

Semi-Pro
Thanks to the OP, I realize Hantuchova is a dumbass.

The conditions were so slow that local golden boy Carlitos almost got served off the court by Struff. As always, serving good paid off in Madrid which has always been the case. If they wanted to help Alcaraz win the title easier they should have just picked one of those hard and heavy duty tennis balls that can significantly lower the effectiveness of big servers.
 
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Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
"Essentially, am I just noting the intense reactions of *a few* middle-aged white men. But, above all, it provoked an intense animosity from middle-aged white men (including myself, who happens to be a middle-aged white man) who cannot stand being told things that do not align with their perspective."

Per cominciare, potrebbe imparare a scrivere con chiarezza e con una punteggiatura corretta, poi potremo discutere se sono stato pretenzioso o meno.
So writing stuff in Italian somehow proves a point? I am not sure I understand what kind of point you are trying to prove. I may have misunderstood you, though. You might be messing with the other guy which is fine by me.

I will, however, try to make my own point clear. The Madrid Open is run by old white guys who basically don't respect women.

Dixi.
 

Impetus

Semi-Pro
Hmmm.....don't think the Vikings gave the hapless monks of Lindisfarne Abbey "a fighting chance" or when then they hurled animal bones to kill the hapless Archbishop of Canterbury!! :cool:
Im not completely convinced the vikings came to Lindisfarne 1230 and Canterbury 1153 years ago to play tennis…
I will sleep on it.

Btw. We must really be the most boring country since its been that long since we did something naughty..
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
Im not completely convinced the vikings came to Lindisfarne 1230 and Canterbury 1153 years ago to play tennis…
I will sleep on it.

Btw. We must really be the most boring country since its been that long since we did something naughty..
Which country is that? Sorry, this thread is confusing. Are you talking about Ireland or one of the Scandinavian countries.
 

Impetus

Semi-Pro
Which country is that? Sorry, this thread is confusing. Are you talking about Ireland or one of the Scandinavian countries.
I said the Spanish crowd a behaved like a babbling bumbling band of baboons towards Rune and said that we proud, fair and good looking Danish vikings would always give the opponent a fighting chance. Mainad mumbled about some abbeys that we sacked 1300 years ago.
I told him im not convinced my anchesters came there to play tennis with the abbey.

I love to explain jokes. It always makes them better.
 

I get cramps

Semi-Pro
You display your aptitude in German by pointing out my error of not capitalizing Weltanschauung, as if you were bestowing a lecture on me after highlighting my misstep. Why shouldn't I write in Italian and Portuguese, languages I have studied in depth?
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
You display your aptitude in German by pointing out my error of not capitalizing Weltanschauung, as if you were bestowing a lecture on me after highlighting my misstep. Why shouldn't I write in Italian and Portuguese, languages I have studied in depth?
I really don't know. Just do it properly if you want to show off. It's a basic rule.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
I said the Spanish crowd a behaved like a babbling bumbling band of baboons towards Rune and said that we proud, fair and good looking Danish vikings would always give the opponent a fighting chance. Mainad mumbled about some abbeys that we sacked 1300 years ago.
I told him im not convinced my anchesters came there to play tennis with the abbey.

I love to explain jokes. It always makes them better.
I really don't know. Just do it properly if you want to show off. It's a basic rule.
The basic rule about jokes is that they're supposed to be funny.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
I will, however, try to make my own point clear. The Madrid Open is run by old white guys who basically don't respect women.
The interesting question is, what if we found out that the tournament is actually owned (and therefore run) by a group of gay, black women? (They are recluse billionaires that like to remain anonymous). Everything happed as it happed, but the owners aren't "old white guys"?

Do you then say that the Madrid Open is run by gay, black women that don't respect women? And if not, why not? Remember, we aren't changing any other facts. Just who the owners are. Are the things "different' if done by a different group?

Further imagine that you now get publicly roasted for your comment. You thought you were criticizing "old white guys". But it turns out you were criticizing gay, black women. And they brand you as homophobic, racist and misogynistic. You obviously didn't intend to by any of those. What is your reaction going to be? Will you accept the criticism?
 
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Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
The interesting question is, what if we found out that the tournament is actually owned (and therefore run) by a group of gay, black women? (They are recluse billionaires that like to remain anonymous). Everything happed as it happed, but the owners aren't "old white guys"?

Do you then say that the Madrid Open is run by gay, black women that don't respect women? And if not, why not? Remember, we aren't changing any other facts. Just who the owners are. Are the things "different' if done by a different group?

Further imagine that you now get publicly roasted for your comment. You thought you were criticizing "old white guys". But it turns out you were criticizing gay, black women. And they brand you as homophobic, racist and misogynistic. You obviously didn't intend to by any of those. What is your reaction going to be? Will you accept the criticism?
No, you're clearly drunk.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
No, you're clearly drunk.
Expected response. There's no reason why you should answer. It can't do your argument any good.

But I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at (even if you'll never admit it out loud).

Who does something Is always more important than what is done. Two different groups can do the exact same thing. One will be criticized. One won't. And this obviously isn't just about "old white males". Other groups have a similar burden for different reasons. And certainly this is changes at different points in history for different cultures, etc.

This is the meaning behind the post above that talks about a r@pe in Spain. They are saying that a certain group can get away with it. I don't know if its true in this case, but it certainly has been true throughout history.

I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out that this is the way it is.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
Expected response. There's no reason why you should answer. It can't do your argument any good.

But I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at (even if you'll never admit it out loud).

Who does something Is always more important than what is done. Two different groups can do the exact same thing. One will be criticized. One won't. And this obviously isn't just about "old white males". Other groups have a similar burden for different reasons. And certainly this is changes at different points in history for different cultures, etc.

This is the meaning behind the post above that talks about a r@pe in Spain. They are saying that a certain group can get away with it. I don't know if its true in this case, but it certainly has been true throughout history.

I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out that this is the way it is.
"Expected response."
Because you are drunk?
Look, what you are saying does not make sense. Maybe it's the Google Translate or the Rioja. You honestly need to check some kind of context here:
What does this even mean:
Who does something Is always more important than what is done.
We do not have to take take this discussion further. Sort out your communication skills.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Im not completely convinced the vikings came to Lindisfarne 1230 and Canterbury 1153 years ago to play tennis…
I will sleep on it.

Btw. We must really be the most boring country since its been that long since we did something naughty..

Divine penance for all that excitement 1,000 years ago?? :cool:
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
"Expected response."
Because you are drunk?
Look, what you are saying does not make sense. Maybe it's the Google Translate or the Rioja. You honestly need to check some kind of context here:
What does this even mean:

We do not have to take take this discussion further. Sort out your communication skills.
"Who does something" is the person or group that does the action

"What is done" is the action itself

"More important" is a relative valuation.

"Always" is at all times and all occasions
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
"Who does something" is the person or group that does the action

"What is done" is the action itself

"More important" is a relative valuation.

"Always" is at all times and all occasions
I remember you guys from uni. Guys who just stumled into university never really aware of what your scholarly sentences meant. Either that or the other guys; Spanish exchange students not having a clue of what they were talking about, because they weren't really good at English. I guess you are one of them (using Google Translate, which we did not have at the time). I did like my Spanish friends, though.

I studied Lingustics, so I have an idea of what this is about. Please consider that this might be a matter of us not understanding each others idioms or specific use of words.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
I remember you guys from uni. Guys who just stumled into university never really aware of what your scholarly sentences meant. Either that or the other guys; Spanish exchange students not having a clue of what they were talking about, because they weren't really good at English. I guess you are one of them (using Google Translate, which we did not have at the time). I did like my Spanish friends, though.

I studied Lingustics, so I have an idea of what this is about. Please consider that this might be a matter of us not understanding each others idioms or specific use of words.
I have to admit. I never expected this response.

But your point is fundamental. If we aren't able to understand each other (due to my poor English and communication skills), then what is said is pointless.

Sorry, you seemed to be understanding me for a while, but perhaps you were just humoring me.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
I have to admit. I never expected this response.

But your point is fundamental. If we aren't able to understand each other (due to my poor English and communication skills), then what is said is pointless.

Sorry, you seemed to be understanding me for a while, but perhaps you were just humoring me.
I am sorry if this caused a conflict. I seriously did not understand what you meant.

I will – just for context – point out what my stance is:

Spain is a great country, I've ben there several times
You have great legislature in terms of equality
You also have a problem with Machoism (and that nasty party + stupid bull fighting etc.)
Madrid Masters is run by idiots
.
That is my opinion. I know that Spain is constantly improving in many ways – and I cannot wait to visit again.

I hope you have a great evening.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
As I always say, an ugly woman can cure cancer, and she'll probably get criticized for not curing it "nicely" enough. "Sure, she cured cancer. But did she have to be such a b!tch about it"?

A beautiful woman can burn your house down. And people will say how wonderful she is and what a pro she is with matches.

This is something people seem to fail to understand. They wonder why they aren't liked and can't seem to find anything they did wrong. They did nothing wrong. People just don't like them. So no matter what they do, it's something being done by a person others don't like. And the opposite is also true. If you're well liked, in some sense, you can do no wrong. What you do isn't important. What is important is that it's you doing it.

I have several friends that beat their head against the wall. Always trying to please everyone. And everyone continues to hate them. And they can't understand why.

Humans aren't rational. They're emotional. Or as Hume famously said, "reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them"
 
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milk of amnesia

Hall of Fame
You're far better of just letting people air their opinions.

If you don't, you let a very sympathetic audience establish an even worse narrative on social media. Then it has a life of it's own, as "scandal" always will.

What Madrid really needs is an @Aussie Darcy or @Olli Jokinen type on staff as a consultant. Then you can ask them "hey, I'm thinking about recognizing Alcaraz and Sabelenkas birthdays. This is what I'm going to do. Do you see any issues here"? Then they can tell you about size of cakes and sexism. Things you'd never think about in a million years. Then you can decide if you want to make Sabelenka a cake the size of a house, or just scrap the whole thing.

It's really hard to anticipate what people might do in any given situation. So get people from all perspectives around you as consultants. It really doesn't matter if you agree with other people's perspectives / opinions. You just want to avoid scandal / have a good reputation.
I understand what you're trying to do here, but I don't think you really understand that there are just some people out there that will complain no matter what people say or do. This is not only because there is no "one size fits all" answer that will please everyone, but also because there are a lot of argumentative people out there who mindlessly complain for the sake of complaining. Catering to people who want to behave like impossible children is not the answer.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
As I always say, an ugly woman can cure cancer, and she'll probably get criticized for not curing it "nicely" enough. "Sure, she cured cancer. But did she have to be such a b!tch about it"?

A beautiful woman can burn your house down. And people will say how wonderful she is and what a pro she is with matches.

This is something people seem to fail to understand. They wonder why they aren't liked and can't seem to find anything they did wrong. They did nothing wrong. People just don't like them. So no matter what they do, it's something being done by a person others don't like. And the opposite is also true. If you're well liked, in some sense, you can do no wrong. What you do isn't important. What is important is that it's you doing it.

I have several friends that beat their head against the wall. Always trying to please everyone. And everyone continues to hate them. And they can't understand why.

Humans aren't rational. They're emotional. Or as Hume famously said, "reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them"
So how is relevant when we are discussing the Madrid Masters?
 

I get cramps

Semi-Pro
I remember you guys from uni. Guys who just stumled into university never really aware of what your scholarly sentences meant. Either that or the other guys; Spanish exchange students not having a clue of what they were talking about, because they weren't really good at English. I guess you are one of them (using Google Translate, which we did not have at the time). I did like my Spanish friends, though.

I studied Lingustics, so I have an idea of what this is about. Please consider that this might be a matter of us not understanding each others idioms or specific use of words.


I cannot understand the raison d'être of your attacks against us. You have already put in black and white the lack of understanding of the Spaniards towards the erudite sentences. We must be a singularly noteworthy example in the world. English speakers exhibit a remarkable aptitude for foreign languages, as I noted in the United States. Even when speaking in their native language, they commit frequent linguistic blunders. Being a lawyer, I do not need linguistic expertise to understand this.

I am very skeptical that the person you are exchanging messages with was born in Spain or is even a Spanish speaker, despite your assumption. I am certain of my comprehension of how my co-nationals articulate in English, and this individual does not concur with it.

Ultramontane ideas have very limited influence in our country, but if you have access to more reliable sources of information on this subject, then I may be wrong.

Regards.
 

Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
I cannot understand the raison d'être of your attacks against us. You have already put in black and white the lack of understanding of the Spaniards towards the erudite sentences. We must be a singularly noteworthy example in the world. English speakers exhibit a remarkable aptitude for foreign languages, as I noted in the United States. Even when speaking in their native language, they commit frequent linguistic blunders. Being a lawyer, I do not need linguistic expertise to understand this.

I am very skeptical that the person you are exchanging messages with was born in Spain or is even a Spanish speaker, despite your assumption. I am certain of my comprehension of how my co-nationals articulate in English, and this individual does not concur with it.

Ultramontane ideas have very limited influence in our country, but if you have access to more reliable sources of information on this subject, then I may be wrong.

Regards.
"Being a lawyer, I do not need linguistic expertise to understand this."
towards the erudite sentences
"Ultramontane ideas"
I am certain of my comprehension of how my co-nationals articulate in English, and this individual does not concur with it.

Apparently you do.
 

I get cramps

Semi-Pro
Absolutely. Female, black, gay, Asian, Latino. And not just single people, but groups. There needs to be groups you can hire on a per issue or per event basis to make sure nothing you do is unintentionally offense. So they can decide amongst themselves how any given message or action will be interpreted in their demographic. So everything can be perfectly engineered. Then they can also be tasked with doing damage control if anything happens. All part of the fee.

But what really ends up happening is avoidance. It's far easier to do nothing. And if doing nothing offends people, it's much easier to talk your way out of that (most of the time, obviously not all the time).

Ironically, all of the "calling out" of the racists, sexists, homophonics, etc has the opposite of it's intended effect. What you do is avoid these groups all together. If you interact, you bend over backwards to do and say everything in an over the top (and usually insincere) manner to avoid any possibility of controversy and scandal. But the easiest way to avoid scandal is to avoid any group or person that could bring scandal to you altogether.

And that's the reality of where we are now. And look, I'm fine with the criticism this post will bring. It doesn't make it any less true.

And this is a clear example of what I stated above.
 

LastMile

Rookie
OK, I get the consensus: Azarenka's take on the cake is seen as shallow.
But, but: Carlos' multitier cake was presented with great hooplah on court, with adoring fans all around.
Vika's was quite small, and shoved at her backstage.
Are her accomplishments less? Count the levels of tourneys won by both. Maybe she merited a bit more respect?
 
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