Why you should push

zaph

Professional
Pushers have a bad rep, mainly because they make players look bad while beating them. The standard criticism of pushers, is they endlessly prod the ball with bad technique and somehow unfairly beat "better players". You sometimes see players like that but in my experience, the majority of players who are labelled as pushers are simply players who hit within themselves and safely, some even have pretty conventional technique.

For me pushing is really just a different mindset, it is about taking an honest look at your game and realising you're not Federer, Djokovic or any other top pro. That you can't crack winners from all over the court. It is about being honest about your limitations and playing within your ability.

The goal of a pusher is to not give their opponent any free points, to avoid committing any unforced errors. Pushers do this by learning which shots they can make the majority of the time and which are low percentage shots and only playing the higher percentage ones.

Now to me that doesn't sound like a deadend or limiting a player's game. That sounds like the foundations of a tennis player, foundations to which power and more aggressive play can be added to later.

So that is why I think low level players should learn how to push and I think the real deadend to development is to attempt a power game before you have the ability to play that way, in the hope that it will one day magically start working.
 
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3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
I think the term pusher is derogatory to that style of play. It’s become a label to look down on. Defensive base liner, counterpuncher, retriever? - I’m not sure but I agree that this style needs more respect and a good foundation to build upon.
 

zaph

Professional
I think the term pusher is derogatory to that style of play. It’s become a label to look down on. Defensive base liner, counterpuncher, retriever? - I’m not sure but I agree that this style needs more respect and a good foundation to build upon.

Yes that is kind of my point, I don't see how you can build a tennis game without having that steady foundation.

Take the top 1000 players in the world, I bet if you asked them to rally with each other and get 100 shots in a row in, they could do it. They have steadiness available when they need it.

The problem is too many rec players want to transition to a power a game without building the foundations that allow them to play that game effectively.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Yes that is kind of my point, I don't see how you can build a tennis game without having that steady foundation.

Take the top 1000 players in the world, I bet if you asked them to rally with each other and get 100 shots in a row in, they could do it. They have steadiness available when they need it.

The problem is too many rec players want to transition to a power a game without building the foundations that allow them to play that game effectively.
Imo the term is over used and often misused against players who lack much power and make a lot of shots. Yes, you should build a steady foundation and likely can avoid being labeled a pusher if you can hit bigger shots when you have earned the right positioning in the court and in the point to use big power. If you can play smart and steady until you earn moment to go big....and then go big with success, then you won't likely be considered a pusher.
 

vex

Legend
I think you need to do both. You need to drill and practice aggressive hitting outside your comfort zone to improve/build your offensive groundstrokes. If you skip this step and just defend with what you have, you literally will never improve. Pushing without skill improvement has a very low ceiling, you’ll lose to anyone with basic accurate groundstrokes and the ability to hit overheads and volleys. So pushing alone is a dead end. So on the balance if your starting out I’d spend much less time on match play and much more time drilling. You do need match experience and you need to learn to play defense and hit within your limits but if you are pushing without solid forehand mechanics you’re generally just wasting your own time.

but OP is correct in that every good tennis player incorporates pushing into thier game, albeit at higher levels of play it doesn’t look like pushing it looks like consistency and defense.

you ride up the ranks by hitting ever improving groundstrokes without over hitting and increasing your UFEs. It’s really that simple.
 

nyta2

Legend
regardless of how you accomplish it (stroke, push, bunt, lob, etc...)... hitting a ball high out of opponents strikezone, and deep to push them back and give me more time,.... works at every level.
anyone using "pusher" to describe a game, is just mad they are not getting a comfortable ball to hit (go hire a hitting pro!), and likely their net game sucks too.
 

JCF

Semi-Pro
I have changed my opinion on pushers, I used to arrogantly assume I should always beat them, in fact I started a thread on the topic of pushers here a few months back and there was some rude awakenings for me.

If a pusher beats you - they beat you because on the day they were better!!! deal with it.

You need to improve your game to get good enough to beat them, play the pushers, practice with the pushers, LEARN to push when it's necessary !!

Since then my game and mental attitude has improved dramatically, I am easily beating guys I would have crumbled to months ago, I just remain calm and get more balls back, thats how you beat a pusher, stay calm, play the ball back, don't try and blast early winners.

Let the games build up and then when you are more relaxed and flowing start lashing those on the line winners.....


BOOOM!!!!
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
regardless of how you accomplish it (stroke, push, bunt, lob, etc...)... hitting a ball high out of opponents strikezone, and deep to push them back and give me more time,.... works at every level.

This. Depth is the key to my game. I'm not going to overpower many folks but I will keep them back. Eventually I'll get a short ball I can be aggressive with. But until then I'll just keep you well behind the baseline.
 

cha cha

Professional
I know people who have pushed themselves (pun intended) to a level of psychosis, where they are literally terrified of hitting any shot faster than 40 km/h. They warm up at a decent pace yet regress to my grandmother's speed of shot immediately upon commencing point play. That is unhealthy.

Nothing wrong with basing your game around defence though.
We have a legendary guy in my league who uses exclusively lobs. Both wings, all landing within a metre from the baseline. At 5.0 level, this guy has lost like 3 matches in 10 years.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
@zaph
I think the term pusher is derogatory to that style of play. It’s become a label to look down on. Defensive base liner, counterpuncher, retriever? - I’m not sure but I agree that this style needs more respect and a good foundation to build upon.
The style needs some good PR ppl. You guys up to the task? You need to overcome the bad rep that pushers have gotten from Steppenwolf and others

Pay heed to the message after 1:10
 
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zipplock

Hall of Fame
I know people who have pushed themselves (pun intended) to a level of psychosis, where they are literally terrified of hitting any shot faster than 40 km/h. They warm up at a decent pace yet regress to my grandmother's speed of shot immediately upon commencing point play. That is unhealthy.

Nothing wrong with basing your game around defence though.
We have a legendary guy in my league who uses exclusively lobs. Both wings, all landing within a metre from the baseline. At 5.0 level, this guy has lost like 3 matches in 10 years.
Does he lob from the net?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Now to me that doesn't sound like a deadend or limiting a player's game. That sounds like the foundations of a tennis player, foundations to which power and more aggressive play can be added to later.

So that is why I think low level players should learn how to push and I think the real deadend to development is to attempt a power game before you have the ability to play that way, in the hope that it will one day magically start working.

I thought the blue shirt guy is a great example for your argument. Looks to be very aware of his limits, puts placement over power, never gives free points. And almost every stroke of his ( especially the serve ) looks “underdeveloped “.



 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
I thought the blue shirt guy is a great example for your argument. Looks to be very aware of his limits, puts placement over power, never gives free points. And almost every stroke of his ( especially the serve ) looks “underdeveloped “

I don’t agree with the underdeveloped strokes part. The rear of your post is spot on.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Ok maybe not the forehand but look at the technique of that backhand drive and slice. I’m not even mentioning the serve.
Meant to say rest of your post is spot on

I don’t see an issue with his strokes. He is not dinking. Even on the bh side he is hitting it deep. Clearly he is favoring consistency from that side while waiting to dictate the point with his fh.

Serve too. He is not tapping it in. It’s a good consistent 2nd serve. Someone who can hit the fh like that clearly would know how to hit a faster serve but looks like he chose to be consistent with the things he is not great at. Not a bad decision.

I like the way he plays.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Meant to say rest of your post is spot on

I don’t see an issue with his strokes. He is not dinking. Even on the bh side he is hitting it deep. Clearly he is favoring consistency from that side while waiting to dictate the point with his fh.

Serve too. He is not tapping it in. It’s a good consistent 2nd serve. Someone who can hit the fh like that clearly would know how to hit a faster serve but looks like he chose to be consistent with the things he is not great at. Not a bad decision.

I like the way he plays.
Do you think he can go up to the next level with that serve and backhand?
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Do you think he can go up to the next level with that serve and backhand?

IMO there is much obsession with many lower level rec players on going to the next level. Not enough on hitting with depth and playing with consistency.

if you see when his opponent is closer to the camera that his shots have good depth from both wings.

His movement does not seem great and that would be a bigger hindrance on going to the next level. However I doubt he cares. To me this looks like a guy who has made peace with what he is, his ceiling as a rec player, and is playing good strokes without dinking. Shot tolerance is pretty high too More rec players should first aim for the way this guy is playing.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Just remove words like pusher or ball basher from your vocabulary, do what it takes to win a match and live to fight another day. Nadal can play 20 feet behind the baseline or come to the net 60 times (like in the 2019 USO final) and some call him a textbook defensive counterpuncher while his fans think he is an aggressive power baseliner. All that matters is that he has 20 Slams and is universally respected by his opponents.

Make your opponents respect you and maybe even fear you. I don‘t attach labels to my opponent’s game - I’m too busy figuring out how to beat the snot out of them. The only label I want to put on them is ‘victim’.
 

Keizer

Hall of Fame
Do you think he can go up to the next level with that serve and backhand?

What do you think his current level is? Looking at the pace of ball and consistency, he looks like a strong 4.0 at worst, more likely 4.5.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
What do you think his current level is? Looking at the pace of ball and consistency, he looks like a strong 4.0 at worst, more likely 4.5.
Never mind. It’s a winning style and yes he’s actually a 4.5 player by his match results.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Never mind. It’s a winning style and yes he’s actually a 4.5 player by his match results.

And with terrible footwork to boot. So clearly he has consistency and depth to make up for the lack of good court movement. And as long as he has fun playing others at his level there is nothing to fault.

Tennis, to many of us, is about beating the guys on the other side of the net and less about what number is attached to our game.
 

denoted

Semi-Pro
"The depressing thing about tennis is that, no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall." - Mitch Hedberg

Imagining a Karate Kid-style training montage in which a young tennis player has to hit against a wall until she wears a hole in the wood and hits through it.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Now to me that doesn't sound like a deadend or limiting a player's game. That sounds like the foundations of a tennis player, foundations to which power and more aggressive play can be added to later.

So that is why I think low level players should learn how to push and I think the real deadend to development is to attempt a power game before you have the ability to play that way, in the hope that it will one day magically start working.

I don't dislike pushers but I think you are just wrong about this idea that you need to learn to push first and such. This is a very bad idea and it is disliked because it is limiting - not just with regards to winning but with regards to enjoyment.

Let me explain. As you have indicated a pusher is someone who plays safe cautious shots. So lets imagine that a player has a speed limit - how hard they can hit the ball and be reliable. At 10/10 you are going to miss most of the time. But at 3/10 or 4/10 you are very consistent. Well your garden variety pusher hits EVERY ball at this 3 and 4 pace.. They never even go to 6/7/8.

In the long run this is very limiting. Why? Because you need to practice putting more energy into the ball to get good at it. You are not going to magically develop power once you have this foundation. You have to start hitting more balls at say 7.. And when you get good at that - that 7 will become a more comfortable shot for you.

But its more then that - once you have achieved a measure of success with your pushing you will be fearful to make changes as in the short run they will set you back. GSG is a great example of this. Peter Freeman had him serving more aggressively - and he could even hit a pretty decent serve. But he doesn't do that in matches because the risk of failure has become to good. He is not committed to learning to hit big shots - he is interested in winning.

It's much easier for a generic athletic 3.5 "ball basher" to develop power - and these are the guys that eventually play with power because they are more willing to experiment at the limits.

In short - no. Pushing is limiting with regards to learning to play fun aggressive tennis. Clearly its okay if all you want to do is win games by any means.. GSG is proof of this. But GSG will probably never bang big serves like tennis troll or rip backhands like that two hand forehand guy.. It's the young ball bashers that grow up into the big hitters.

I'd wager a guy like that never had any period in which he was a tentative cautious player.. The most fun sensation to be had in tennis is to hit a ball at near your speed limit - and win the point with it. You might only get to do so once or twice a match - depending on your opponent. But this is something the pusher doesn't really get to experience because they are hyper focused on being ultra cautious.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
I thought the blue shirt guy is a great example for your argument. Looks to be very aware of his limits, puts placement over power, never gives free points. And almost every stroke of his ( especially the serve ) looks “underdeveloped “.




It's simple.

The blue guy is playing down his level, ie against much worse opponent, that he could afford to play so cautiously and with such high margin.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I'd wager a guy like that never had any period in which he was a tentative cautious player.. The most fun sensation to be had in tennis is to hit a ball at near your speed limit - and win the point with it. You might only get to do so once or twice a match - depending on your opponent. But this is something the pusher doesn't really get to experience because they are hyper focused on being ultra cautious.

Winning is a nice experience for sure but in tennis I can always find someone I can beat. But ripping a DTL FH winner or the big down the T ace are the feelings that last for me and keep me coming back to play.

I always tell the guys at my Palm Desert condo, "i'll take up Pickleball when I can't hit a FH anymore". Just like finding that perfect wave, striping that big drive down the middle of the fairway, riding an untouched powder field, some things in the sports world are precious.

No one should be foolish in their aggressiveness but you gotta take your shots, as they say. The worst thing I see on a lot of these gameplay videos is guys stepping into NML to take on a short ball, poke at it, then retreat back 6 feet behind the baseline. Every fiber in my being is going, "Attack!!!"
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
The most fun sensation to be had in tennis is to hit a ball at near your speed limit - and win the point with it. You might only get to do so once or twice a match - depending on your opponent.



But this is something the pusher doesn't really get to experience because they are hyper focused on being ultra cautious.

But ripping a DTL FH winner or the big down the T ace are the feelings that last for me and keep me coming back to play.


You guys get a great feeling when you can rip a good shot, and on the same token you get a very $h!%^tttttyyyy feeling when you miss it, too, right? If something giveth, then something taketh, right? o_O:D
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
You guys get a great feeling when you can rip a good shot, and on the same token you get a very $h!%^tttttyyyy feeling when you miss it, too, right? If something giveth, then something taketh, right? o_O:D

I think more aggressive players get greater highs from the good shots than they get lows from the bad shots. If I miss a shot, at least the point was on my racket. As long as I'm not blowing up in foolish aggressiveness and trying shots I know are out of my league, I'm comfortable blowing a short ball opportunity here and there.

Short memory for the mistakes and store the good shots in that long term memory bank.

If you watch Nadal, you can see him fist pump and scream when he hits a great shot in a long rally but when he flubs up, he merely shakes his head and moves on to the next point.

The only fist pumping moment a pusher gets is after his opponent airmails the ball on the last point. Great feeling for sure since he got the win but nothing in the match was otherwise memorable. But i get that that's their jam and you can't say they are doing it wrong. I just can't relate.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I don't dislike pushers but I think you are just wrong about this idea that you need to learn to push first and such. This is a very bad idea and it is disliked because it is limiting - not just with regards to winning but with regards to enjoyment.

Let me explain. As you have indicated a pusher is someone who plays safe cautious shots. So lets imagine that a player has a speed limit - how hard they can hit the ball and be reliable. At 10/10 you are going to miss most of the time. But at 3/10 or 4/10 you are very consistent. Well your garden variety pusher hits EVERY ball at this 3 and 4 pace.. They never even go to 6/7/8.

In the long run this is very limiting. Why? Because you need to practice putting more energy into the ball to get good at it. You are not going to magically develop power once you have this foundation. You have to start hitting more balls at say 7.. And when you get good at that - that 7 will become a more comfortable shot for you.

But its more then that - once you have achieved a measure of success with your pushing you will be fearful to make changes as in the short run they will set you back. GSG is a great example of this. Peter Freeman had him serving more aggressively - and he could even hit a pretty decent serve. But he doesn't do that in matches because the risk of failure has become to good. He is not committed to learning to hit big shots - he is interested in winning.

It's much easier for a generic athletic 3.5 "ball basher" to develop power - and these are the guys that eventually play with power because they are more willing to experiment at the limits.

In short - no. Pushing is limiting with regards to learning to play fun aggressive tennis. Clearly its okay if all you want to do is win games by any means.. GSG is proof of this. But GSG will probably never bang big serves like tennis troll or rip backhands like that two hand forehand guy.. It's the young ball bashers that grow up into the big hitters.

I'd wager a guy like that never had any period in which he was a tentative cautious player.. The most fun sensation to be had in tennis is to hit a ball at near your speed limit - and win the point with it. You might only get to do so once or twice a match - depending on your opponent. But this is something the pusher doesn't really get to experience because they are hyper focused on being ultra cautious.

Mouratoglu said something similar a few days ago in one his clips: hit with power and you'll learn how to harness it pretty fast. But of course he wasn't talking to a 3.0 player, probably not even 3.5
He also indicated that doing the oposite, using an abbreviated swing, makes it harder to controll the ball.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Winning is a nice experience for sure but in tennis I can always find someone I can beat. But ripping a DTL FH winner or the big down the T ace are the feelings that last for me and keep me coming back to play.

I always tell the guys at my Palm Desert condo, "i'll take up Pickleball when I can't hit a FH anymore". Just like finding that perfect wave, striping that big drive down the middle of the fairway, riding an untouched powder field, some things in the sports world are precious.

I was thinking exactly among those lines the other day (and was about to ask @Curious if he ever experienced that with his FH? Probably not), b/c once you have that feeling, then you want it again and it's relatively easily to reproduce it/find it again...
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
You guys get a great feeling when you can rip a good shot, and on the same token you get a very $h!%^tttttyyyy feeling when you miss it, too, right? If something giveth, then something taketh, right? o_O:D

If that were true, then Vegas casinos wouldn't be so wealthy.

In this case, i think the great feelings outweigh the terrible ones.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
The only fist pumping moment a pusher gets is after his opponent airmails the ball on the last point.

But how would you know? Maybe seeing every error by their opponent is like manna from heaven. Or maybe they fear making mistakes so much that it's a relief when their opponent does.

I don't know either since pushing is not my primary strategy [but I will certainly use it if other strategies are failing].
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't dislike pushers but I think you are just wrong about this idea that you need to learn to push first and such. This is a very bad idea and it is disliked because it is limiting - not just with regards to winning but with regards to enjoyment.

Let me explain. As you have indicated a pusher is someone who plays safe cautious shots. So lets imagine that a player has a speed limit - how hard they can hit the ball and be reliable. At 10/10 you are going to miss most of the time. But at 3/10 or 4/10 you are very consistent. Well your garden variety pusher hits EVERY ball at this 3 and 4 pace.. They never even go to 6/7/8.

In the long run this is very limiting. Why? Because you need to practice putting more energy into the ball to get good at it. You are not going to magically develop power once you have this foundation. You have to start hitting more balls at say 7.. And when you get good at that - that 7 will become a more comfortable shot for you.

But its more then that - once you have achieved a measure of success with your pushing you will be fearful to make changes as in the short run they will set you back. GSG is a great example of this. Peter Freeman had him serving more aggressively - and he could even hit a pretty decent serve. But he doesn't do that in matches because the risk of failure has become to good. He is not committed to learning to hit big shots - he is interested in winning.

It's much easier for a generic athletic 3.5 "ball basher" to develop power - and these are the guys that eventually play with power because they are more willing to experiment at the limits.

In short - no. Pushing is limiting with regards to learning to play fun aggressive tennis. Clearly its okay if all you want to do is win games by any means.. GSG is proof of this. But GSG will probably never bang big serves like tennis troll or rip backhands like that two hand forehand guy.. It's the young ball bashers that grow up into the big hitters.

I'd wager a guy like that never had any period in which he was a tentative cautious player.. The most fun sensation to be had in tennis is to hit a ball at near your speed limit - and win the point with it. You might only get to do so once or twice a match - depending on your opponent. But this is something the pusher doesn't really get to experience because they are hyper focused on being ultra cautious.
The pusher doesn’t get to experience the nirvana of blasting a 100mph topspin winner because he is too busy winning.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
When I have coached beginners, I always try to teach them to generate a lot of topspin with their shots as early as possible. If you generate a lot of spin, you can develop consistency even as you learn to swing faster and with higher pace. So, players with a nice topspin swing progress through the different rec levels fairly quickly compared to other adult rec players because they can stay consistent while learning to hit harder and harder.

The problem is that most ballbashers at levels below 4.0 try to hit the ball hard without having a swing that generates any appreciable topspin at all. These players are not suddenly going to become consistent however much they practice hitting hard in matches. They are destined to stay at 3.5 forever, lose a lot of matches to more consistent players and keep complaining about pushers till they are too old to play singles anymore.

If you generate a lot of topspin with your swing, I doubt that you will complain much about pushers as you probably know how to hit their DTM moonballs deep to corners or short angles and to putaway their short balls for winners.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
But how would you know? Maybe seeing every error by their opponent is like manna from heaven.

I don't know either since pushing is not my primary strategy [but I will certainly use it if other strategies are failing].

So you are saying they are sociopaths reveling in the misery of their opponents?

I agree that we all get into moments where we know a particular opponent is going to out error us if we just stay in the point. But I suspect for us, winning the point is more relief than fist pumping adrenalin.
 

FlamingCheeto

Hall of Fame
biggest misconception in tennis = CONSISTENCY with NO power = PUSHING when this could NOT be further from the truth. If you can get the ball back one more time more than your opponent you're not a pusher, you're just the better player FTW
 

eah123

Hall of Fame
Getting my wife ready for her USTA 3.0 40+ season.

Basically, she only needs to prepare for 2 types of players when she plays singles:
1) "Regular" 3.0 players (probably 80% of players that have a top spin forehand, flat backhand, dink second serve, cannot sustain rally beyond 4 strokes). How to beat them: push and lob. Let them beat themselves with unforced errors.
2) Pushers. How to beat them: Wait or Create.
Wait - push, look for sitter short ball, hit strong but safe topspin forehand approach, then continue to net for put-away volley.
Create - top spin lob everything (similar to high-heavy ball, but softer). Look for opponent to be out of position, either far behind the baseline or out wide. Then approach to center court and hit "safe" medium pace volley to the open court. Continue to net and look for put-away volley.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Getting my wife ready for her USTA 3.0 40+ season.

Basically, she only needs to prepare for 2 types of players when she plays singles:
1) "Regular" 3.0 players (probably 80% of players that have a top spin forehand, flat backhand, dink second serve, cannot sustain rally beyond 4 strokes). How to beat them: push and lob. Let them beat themselves with unforced errors.
2) Pushers. How to beat them: Wait or Create.
Wait - push, look for sitter short ball, hit strong but safe topspin forehand approach, then continue to net for put-away volley.
Create - top spin lob everything (similar to high-heavy ball, but softer). Look for opponent to be out of position, either far behind the baseline or out wide. Then approach to center court and hit "safe" medium pace volley to the open court. Continue to net and look for put-away volley.

The next time I meet a 3.0 woman with a true topspin FH will be the first time. They all hit flat. If you see topspin, it's probably wind resistance and gravity that created it.
My wife plays 4.0 40+ down in the US and she and most of her compatriots hit flat groundies. Some of the 4.5 ladies I've played against down there hit a nice safe topspin FH. Not a lot of power but consistent as hell.
 
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