Wilander with a BOMBSHELL statement: "When Sinner and Alcaraz are at their best, there is no way anyone has played better tennis"

nolefam_2024 said:
Alcaraz has more hand skills than Roger Federer and is as good an athlete as rafole.
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I don’t agree with the “mix-matching” method of arguing for Alcaraz (“he’s better than X at Y, better than Y at X” etc)…because it’s clear he’s not, on the whole, better than or even equal to any of them (yet…these next 4-5 years will determine the relevance of that qualifier).

And I don’t even agree he has more hand skills than Federer. Roger is far better at hitting on the rise and won a slam S+V’ing. Raz has a better drop shot, but Federer when assed had an amazing drop shot of his own.
 
TheFifthSet said:
I don’t agree with the “mix-matching” method of arguing for Alcaraz (“he’s better than X at Y, better than Y at X” etc)…because it’s clear he’s not, on the whole, better than or even equal to any of them (yet…these next 4-5 years will determine the relevance of that qualifier).

And I don’t even agree he has more hand skills than Federer. Roger is far better at hitting on the rise and won a slam S+V’ing. Raz has a better drop shot, but Federer when assed had an amazing drop shot of his own.
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How can raz not be better. He has won channel slam at age 21. 2 Wimbledons only Boris Becker won 2 at his age.
 
Let's chip away at the big 3 legacy. They are mortals. If we stop the hero worship , I know they won 20 but that is over 15+ years, then we can see where the game is going now.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
How can raz not be better.
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I think we’re talking about different things. Let me be clear: I don’t believe Alcaraz is better than TB3 when they were at or near their primes.

If it’s an age4age comparison, that may turn out a little differently: imo, only Nadal was clearly better from 19-21. Djokovic was comparable in their Age 20-21 years, but wasn’t on that level at 19.

nolefam_2024 said:
He has won channel slam at age 21. 2 Wimbledons only Boris Becker won 2 at his age.
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Yes, he’s a great and precocious player.

Yes, he won Wimbledon twice.

No, he hasn’t matched or eclipsed the standard TB3 set, which is what I was responding to.
 
Mustard said:
Wilander is the best troll in tennis. He does punditry like he did playing, i.e. playing the percentages. At the moment, the Sinner controversy is hurting present day tennis, so Wilander tries to bend the stick in the "this is the best era" direction.
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Agreed, he's not even a horrible person so I revel in his trollery
 
nolefam_2024 said:
How is Roger "far better" at serve and volleying.
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Pls don’t attach quotes to things I didn’t say, even if it’s implied. They’re quotes for a reason.

I didn’t say he was a better career serve and volleyer than Alcaraz (although he was). I said he won a slam s’n’v’ing. He won slams as a baseliner taking balls off his shoetops as well as winning them following up most of his serves to the net. It takes a hell of a lot of racquet skill to do that.

As for the career #’s:

1. There’s a strong negative correlation between frequency and win %. Federer SnV’d nearly twice as much.

2. Federer’s #’s are depressed by his early years when he SnV’d 3-4x more per match, and was a streakier player…crucially, SnV %’s started rising in the mid-2000’s as players became more opportunistic with them….precisely why the all-time leaderboard is dominated by modern players despite the play all but dying out as a primary tactic.

3. Only so much that can be gleaned from these #’s, something you would do well to acknowledge. Notice Alcaraz’s neighbours on the career SnV winning % list: Coric and Shapovalov, both at 75% on 4% SnV frequency. I trust no one thinks they’re about as good at it as Alcaraz, much less Federer.


nolefam_2024 said:

Roger won a slam serve volleying but his numbers are worse than raz so what does it tell you.
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See above.
 
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Do not agree with Mats, but understandable coming from him. He was never part or came near a big three, he would not know.
 
We had prime Carlos v Novak prime 37 old at Olympics, that match alone was higher level than all Carlos v Sinner matches.

Maybe Mats missed that match and did not do his maths? :unsure: ;)
 
Bastion said:
We had prime Carlos v Novak prime 37 old at Olympics, that match alone was higher level than all Carlos v Sinner matches.

Maybe Mats missed that match and did not do his maths? :unsure: ;)
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Ok Djokovic fan

So by that logic nole 2011 is not great because Federer , not KoC, beat him in RG.

Don't give anecdotal evidence. Nole won OG barely. It was very close match. He saved 8 bp.

Raz thrashed in Wimby. Give full context. Don't be fanatic.
 
Nole barely won OG. It was amazing in tiebreaks but the first set was so close. Before tiebreak raz was some 8+ pts ahead. And Nole has barely won all his matches vs raz except Turin and rg

Let's not mince words. Cincy final barely won, wimby barely lost Madrid barely lost and og barely won.

If today's nole beats raz then it's not new nothing. Nole doesn't even play like he did 10 years ago. He is far more aggressive trying to hold on to the sineraz era. If he played like he did 10 years ago, I am not sure. Remember tsitsipas did give nole some scares but this raz guy is just thrashing him. The game is changing fast.
 
Medvedev has troubled nole since 2018 but this sinner guy has started thrashing him. The game has changed. Few djokovic tough wins won't be that big a damage
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Ok Djokovic fan

So by that logic nole 2011 is not great because Federer , not KoC, beat him in RG.

Don't give anecdotal evidence. Nole won OG barely. It was very close match. He saved 8 bp.

Raz thrashed in Wimby. Give full context. Don't be fanatic.
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OK, Nole fam fanatic.

You missed the point, it is not about who won comprehensively, it is about high level or speculation about 'at their best' for both players in a match, and Novak, even at 36/37 were cable to beat Carlos in two matches that were very higher level for both than what happened between Carlos and Sinner matches, see Cincy 2023, Olympics 2024. The fact that there were only a few points in it confirms the 'best level' stuff Mats muttering about.

And some matches between big three were also much higher level than what happened between Sinner and Carlos.

Problem with Mats and many others, yes, ourselves included, we easily forget how great and best level past matches was because we live in the present and remember the latest or current rivalry matches better, for obvious reasons.
 
Bastion said:
OK, Nole fam fanatic.

You missed the point, it is not about who won comprehensively, it is about high level or speculation about 'at their best' for both players in a match, and Novak, even at 36/37 were cable to beat Carlos in two matches that were very higher level for both than what happened between Carlos and Sinner matches, see Cincy 2023, Olympics 2024. The fact that there were only a few points in it confirms the 'best level' stuff Mats muttering about.

And some matches between big three were also much higher level than what happened between Sinner and Carlos.

Problem with Mats and many others, yes, ourselves included, we easily forget how great and best level past matches was because we live in the present and remember the latest or current rivalry matches better, for obvious reasons/
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Novak today plays far more aggressive than Novak in the past.

Adapt or die is tennis motto. Tsitsipas is dying as we speak.
 
Outrage here is so huge.

I guess this is what Agassi and Sampras fan would have felt when rafole started fighting it out.

Or Borg McEnroe fans felt when Becker Edberg Lendl started dominating.

Tennis world is so reactionary. Mats is actually an exception. We don't easily forget the past. We easily forget the past not greats while overly attaching ourselves with greats.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Novak today plays far more aggressive than Novak in the past.

Adapt or die is tennis motto. Tsitsipas is dying as we speak.
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Maybe maybe not.

Novak v Nadal USO 2011 final was one of the most aggressive matches I saw Novak play, same with Doha against Nadal in 2015 ?
 
Bastion said:
Maybe maybe not.

Novak v Nadal USO 2011 final was one of the most aggressive matches I saw Novak play, same with Doha against Nadal in 2015 ?
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Was it really aggressive though.

Nadal plays vertical game. How many times did nole go flat out for winners , how many times he approached the net. These guys don't measure up vs both sineraz in terms of aggression.


Fed is big daddy of them all in modern era. He does. But not rafole. Look at how raz switches from defense to attack. It's impossible for nole to do.

 
I think sinner will have good chance vs Nadal 2011 USO.

And I bet that he won't play a game as patient as nole. No, he would go for the kill early.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Was it really aggressive though.

Nadal plays vertical game. How many times did nole go flat out for winners , how many times he approached the net. These guys don't measure up vs both sineraz in terms of aggression.


Fed is big daddy of them all in modern era. He does. But not rafole. Look at how raz switches from defense to attack. It's impossible for nole to do.

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I don't fall for the idea that some players only attack and some only defend.

All of the greats do both depending on match situation of course.

You don't become big three or goat level without both.

Sometimes goat defense wins the title, see Novak v Fed Wimby 2019
Sometimes all out attack does it, see Novak v Rafa AO 2019
And sometimes you need some of both, Novak v Fed in USO 2011, 2015; Novak v Rafa in RG 2021
 
Bastion said:
I don't fall for the idea that some players only attack and some only defend.

All of the greats do both depending on match situation of course.

You don't become big three or goat level without both.

Sometimes goat defense wins the title, see Novak v Fed Wimby 2019
Sometimes all out attack does it, see Novak v Rafa AO 2019
And sometimes you need some of both, Novak v Fed in USO 2011, 2015; Novak v Rafa in RG 2021
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Yes and then in this department the sineraz rivalry is taking tennis in new direction.

After Rafa and then nole Andy only way to win slams seems to be playing defensive baseline tennis.

Raz and later sinner has broken through that barrier. They go for the kill more often.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Yes and then in this department the sineraz rivalry is taking tennis in new direction.

After Rafa and then nole Andy only way to win slams seems to be playing defensive baseline tennis.

Raz and later sinner has broken through that barrier. They go for the kill more often.
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Agree, and therefore "the best level" is not who attacks more, who is more aggressive, or defensive or another kind of winning or level.

It is all about the whole package determining 'best level ever' etc.

The 'best' determined by all the stats and facts: 24>22>20 all kinds of play that determines 'best or highest level', no matter our personal tastes or Mats. (y)
 
Bastion said:
Agree, and therefore "the best level" is not who attacks more, who is more aggressive, or defensive or another kind of winning or level.

It is all about the whole package that determining 'best level ever' etc.

The 'best' determined by all the stats and facts: 24>22>20 all kinds of play that determines 'best or highest level', no matter our personal tastes or Mats. (y)
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What sineraz are taking the game towards is not what made rafole successful. These are 85+ mph forehand guys. Both can go 100 far more regularly.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
What sineraz are taking the game towards is not what made rafole successful. These are 85+ mph forehand guys. Both can go 100 far more regularly.
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Yes, but in the end, after say at least another 10 years, we will see more clearly where the younger rivalries compares to the past ones.

Will be great if another can join the rivalry, but it could also be only a big two now.
 
Bastion said:
Yes, but in the end, after say at least another 10 years, we will see more clearly where the younger rivalries compares to the past ones.

Will be great if another can join the rivalry, but it could also be only a big two now.
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Why should I wait 10 years. Then these guys will fall off peak. They are in peak now and should be respected NOW. You are Nolefam come on.

Don't you see resemblance between yourself today and fedfans in 2010s. Nole was dominating like never before but the fedfans kept using legacy pts. Legacy is good to decide the greats but nole took tennis to next level.

Now it's sineraz time. Don't be a fedfan. Don't make nole sacrilegious.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Give full context. Don't be fanatic.
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This thread started with a fanatical opinion: that no one played tennis at a higher level that Sinnaraz. If you’d like to appeal to context, start there. It is far far far far far less “fanatical” to claim, on reasonable grounds, that they haven’t reached TB3’s level than to argue (as Wilander does) that they’ve left them in the dust.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Raz can retire with 12 sinner with just 7 and still they would take tennis to the next level.
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Maybe, maybe not.

As of now, they haven’t gotten particularly close to the level TB3 were at when at their peak. If they maintain their current playing levels for the next 10+ years that’ll remain the case…no matter how many majors they compile.

nolefam_2024 said:
20 slams don't make you god.
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Neither does rampaging over a top-light field.
 
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nolefam_2024 said:
Don't you see resemblance between yourself today and fedfans in 2010s. Nole was dominating like never before but the fedfans kept using legacy pts. Legacy is good to decide the greats but nole took tennis to next level.
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Surface-level resemblance at best. Even if it’s similar in kind it’s so vastly different in scale/degree that the comparison fails. Djokovic from 2011-2016 is another animal, he can be compared to anyone in history at their best. Sinner and Alcaraz have not had season/multi-season peaks that rival his. Not even close. Not even close to being close. Galaxies apart. So far apart that it wouldn’t be sweating the small stuff to discard a comparison between them…no, it would be the sensible thing to do. It’s a totally manufactured debate.


nolefam_2024 said:
Now it's sineraz time. Don't be a fedfan. Don't make nole sacrilegious.
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He’s not. It’s not sacrilege to claim Djokovic was a fair bit better in his prime than Sinner and Alcaraz are now, no matter how much you want to frame the view as dated or reactionary.

Sinner or Alcaraz need to earn these lofty distinctions. They haven’t yet…all the garnishing and polishing in the world won’t obscure that.
 
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TheFifthSet said:
Surface-level resemblance at best. Even if it’s similar in kind it’s so vastly different in scale/degree that the comparison fails. Djokovic from 2011-2016 is another animal, he can be compared to anyone in history at their best. Sinner and Alcaraz have not had season/multi-season peaks that rival his. Not even close. Not even close to being close. Galaxies apart. So far apart that it wouldn’t be sweating the small stuff to discard a comparison between them…no, it would be the sensible thing to do. It’s a totally manufactured debate.




He’s not. It’s not sacrilege to claim Djokovic was a fair bit better in his prime than Sinner and Alcaraz are now, no matter how much you want to frame the view as dated or reactionary.

Sinner or Alcaraz need to earn these lofty distinctions. They haven’t yet…all the garnishing and polishing in the world won’t obscure that.
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Djokovic never bad the ingenuity of lightening rod that is alcaraz. Never

He's sinner today is not better than peak nole but at this time sinner plays far aggressive game than even peak Djokovic. His serve +1 turns the pt from neutral to holy crap in 1 shot.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Djokovic never bad the ingenuity of lightening rod that is alcaraz. Never
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That’s a different thing then.

level of play =/= “ingenuity”

(And, on that front, Federer clears both Djokovic and Alcaraz.)

People ITT have mainly taken exception to those that argue Sinneraz is as good as or better than TB3. The other stuff has barely been broached — I don’t think many will argue that there are differences in their playing styles.
 
TheFifthSet said:
That’s a different thing then.

level of play =/= “ingenuity”

(And, on that front, Federer clears both Djokovic and Alcaraz.)

People ITT have mainly taken exception to those that argue Sinneraz is as good as or better than TB3. The other stuff has barely been broached — I don’t think many will argue that there are differences in their playing styles.
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Raz clears Fed but agree on Djokovic
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Well when Santoro can hit 218 kmph serve and 100+ mph forehands, or run as quick as young Nadal, we can think about him.
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The goalposts just can’t stop moving lol. It’s obvious that there’s no clear or consistent criteria by which Alcaraz has improved upon the standard set by his predecessors yet.
 
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