Will Djokovic ever beat Nadal at a slam again?

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abmk

Bionic Poster
Djokovic's celebrations were on the same level in 2011-2013. I didn't like him in 07-08 for the exact same reasons. Since you are so keen on going back and doing some reading go do your homework and see. I thought he had matured from 08-2010, only later to find out it was because he wasn't winning that much. It is what it is. Today I like giving his fans a hard time, but he himself, though I still don't like him, doesn't bother me and I think he's a great guy off court.

I had already seen plenty of posts before and am making the comments only after that. Djokovic's celebrations didn't change that much b/w 2007-08 and 08-10 .....try again at squirming out of this :roll:

from not liking a player at all to 2nd favorite back to not liking him ......one would have to be naive to believe that ...
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
I had already seen plenty of posts before and am making the comments only after that. Djokovic's celebrations didn't change that much b/w 2007-08 and 08-10 .....try again at squirming out of this :roll:

from not liking a player at all to 2nd favorite back to not liking him ......one would have to be naive to believe that ...

Let me ask you something. Who's my second favorite player right now on the ATP? How much do I talk about them in relation to Nadal? Even in 2010 when I liked Novak, there was a HUGE gulf. Please stop with the tired sensationalism :roll:
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Let me ask you something. Who's my second favorite player right now on the ATP? How much do I talk about them in relation to Nadal? Even in 2010 when I liked Novak, there was a HUGE gulf. Please stop with the tired sensationalism :roll:

I'll stop with telling it when you stop being a hypocrite.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
because Novak was clearly below his best in that AO 12 final and nadal was close to his very best ...nadal still lost it ( and Novak should've clinched in the 4th set breaker. He had a putaway FH at 5-3 in the breaker at the net that he missed )

Novak is in good form overall and Nadal is returning from a break. Hence Djokovic is the massive favorite vs him at the AO ...

Nadal was nowhere near close to his very best.

If Djokovic was clearly below his best why was it that Nadal hit 71 unforced errors and only 44 winners? That ratio would've been a LOT better if Novak wasn't playing well.

Nadal close to his very best would NEVER hit 71 Unforced Errors.

No, his very best at AO would be against Verdasco where he hit only 25 UE and 50 Winners who was playing much better than Djokovic or Federer ever has against him at the AO.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
I'll stop with telling it when you stop being a hypocrite.

Who's my second favorite player and how much do I like them compared to Nadal? Weak trolling attempt gone sour for everyone to see in black and white. Him being my second favorite player meant at the time he was one of the only other guys's who's matches I also enjoyed watching. His flexibility still is awe inspiring to me. Murray and Stan are probably tied for second right now for me. Do you think if one of them started acting like a jerk in front of Nadal's hotel it would take a mountain moving for me to no longer consider them that? :lol:
 
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D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
Nadal was nowhere near close to his very best.

If Djokovic was clearly below his best why was it that Nadal hit 71 unforced errors and only 44 winners? That ratio would've been a LOT better if Novak wasn't playing well.

Nadal close to his very best would NEVER hit 71 Unforced Errors.

No, his very best at AO would be against Verdasco where he hit only 25 UE and 50 Winners who was playing much better than Djokovic or Federer ever has against him at the AO.

This I totally agree with. That was Nadal greatest match at AO, freakin insane match that still boggles the mind.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Nadal was nowhere near close to his very best.

If Djokovic was clearly below his best why was it that Nadal hit 71 unforced errors and only 44 winners? That ratio would've been a LOT better if Novak wasn't playing well.

Nadal close to his very best would NEVER hit 71 Unforced Errors.

No, his very best at AO would be against Verdasco where he hit only 25 UE and 50 Winners who was playing much better than Djokovic or Federer ever has against him at the AO.

the courts were clearly slower in 12 than in 09

and there is a massive massive difference between verdasco's defense and Nole's

and nadal did force quite a few errors from Djokovic. But typically you ignore the forced error count ...
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Who's my second favorite player and how much do I like them compared to Nadal? Weak trolling attempt gone sour for everyone to see in black and white. Him being my second favorite player meant at the time he was one of the only player's matches I also enjoyed watching. His flexibility still is awe inspiring to me. Murray and Stan are probably tied for second right now for me. Do you think if one of them started acting like a jerk in front of Nadal's hotel it would take a mountain moving for me to no longer consider them that? :lol:

You really haven't made that clear in your posts.

What was downright clear was that he all of a sudden turned from your 2nd favorite to a 'villain' once he started beating your boy regularly in 11 and early 12.

you again relaxed once nadal started beating him in big matches from then on
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
You really haven't made that clear in your posts.

What was downright clear was that he all of a sudden turned from your 2nd favorite to a 'villain' once he started beating your boy regularly in 11 and early 12.

you again relaxed once nadal started beating him in big matches from then on

Actually I've explained that very thing about 40 times. I was never a raving Djokovic loon :roll: and believe it or not he's damn sure never been a villain imo. I really don't like the way he acts sometimes, it really is that simple. Dozens of people on here don't like him for the exact same reasons.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
the courts were clearly slower in 12 than in 09

and there is a massive massive difference between verdasco's defense and Nole's

and nadal did force quite a few errors from Djokovic. But typically you ignore the forced error count ...

LOL 71 unforced errors has nothing to do with the court or opponent. They are mistakes and sorry, but Nadal will never hit that many UE when he's close to his very best.

Also, provide some proof that the courts were clearly slower in 2012, because as a LIVE spectator there was no noticeable difference in 2012 compared to 2009.

Also, against Novak, Nadal has never hit anywhere close to 71 Unforced errors iirc...
 
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Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
because Novak was clearly below his best in that AO 12 final and nadal was close to his very best ...nadal still lost it ( and Novak should've clinched in the 4th set breaker. He had a putaway FH at 5-3 in the breaker at the net that he missed )

Novak is in good form overall and Nadal is returning from a break. Hence Djokovic is the massive favorite vs him at the AO ...

I have to disagree with you here abmk - no way was Djokovic far from his best in that match. But I also disagree with T_0 who thinks Nadal wasn't close to his best due to making 71 UE. That match was nearly six hours long so it stands to reason that the error count would be pretty high, especially on a slow HC.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
You really haven't made that clear in your posts.

What was downright clear was that he all of a sudden turned from your 2nd favorite to a 'villain' once he started beating your boy regularly in 11 and early 12.

you again relaxed once nadal started beating him in big matches from then on

Just leave it. Not worth it.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
You really haven't made that clear in your posts.

What was downright clear was that he all of a sudden turned from your 2nd favorite to a 'villain' once he started beating your boy regularly in 11 and early 12.

you again relaxed once nadal started beating him in big matches from then on

What's wrong with that? You treat Nadal like a villain once he started beating your boy regularly from the get go :lol:
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
I have to disagree with you here abmk - no way was Djokovic far from his best in that match. But I also disagree with T_0 who thinks Nadal wasn't close to his best due to making 71 UE. That match was nearly six hours long so it stands to reason that the error count would be pretty high, especially on a slow HC.

RG is slower. Nadal has never hit 71 unforced errors against Novak, not even close in the slam matches.

Come on, do you honestly think Nadal close to his very best would hit that many?

The Verdasco match was over 5 hours and he only hit 25.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Rafa played a really bad set in that final, but outside of that I think he played REALLY well. I consider that a win over a very good Nadal.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
RG is slower. Nadal has never hit 71 unforced errors against Novak, not even close in the slam matches.

Come on, do you honestly think Nadal close to his very best would hit that many?

The Verdasco match was over 5 hours and he only hit 25.

Yes, but in fairness Nadal is always gonna feel like he has to go for more against a player like Djokovic than someone like Verdasco whose defence, especially on slow HC, is nowhere near as good as Novak's is.
 

vanioMan

Legend
Rafa played a really bad set in that final, but outside of that I think he played REALLY well. I consider that a win over a very good Nadal.

I agree. He was very good. Serve was working well, the slice was doing a lot of damage, his backhand was solid and his forehand was causing Djokovic all kinds of trouble. Despite loosing he played very, very well.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal was nowhere near close to his very best.

If Djokovic was clearly below his best why was it that Nadal hit 71 unforced errors and only 44 winners? That ratio would've been a LOT better if Novak wasn't playing well.

Nadal close to his very best would NEVER hit 71 Unforced Errors.

No, his very best at AO would be against Verdasco where he hit only 25 UE and 50 Winners who was playing much better than Djokovic or Federer ever has against him at the AO.

Well that seals it then! :)
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Yes, but in fairness Nadal is always gonna feel like he has to go for more against a player like Djokovic than someone like Verdasco whose defence, especially on slow HC, is nowhere near as good as Novak's is.

Yes and by going for more he certainly wasn't executing well enough was he?

To have a -27 ratio in W/UE tells anyone that he wasn't close to his very best.

I think Nadal played well, but both he and Novak were not at their very best.

Do you not think that Novak would've felt like he has to go for more against Nadal on a slow HC? Nadal's defence is almost as good as Novak's on slow HC so chances are he would've felt similar pressure as well. Yet Novak although he hit 69 Unforced Errors, also hit 57 Winners.

And I'm supposed to believe that Novak wasn't playing well whilst Nadal was close to his very best?

Pffft Not a chance.

That clown only said that because he is a Nadal hater for life after what Nadal did to his hero in the majors. He wants people to believe that Nadal at his very best has no chance against Novak at the AO, but smart people know better.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal was nowhere near close to his very best.

If Djokovic was clearly below his best why was it that Nadal hit 71 unforced errors and only 44 winners? That ratio would've been a LOT better if Novak wasn't playing well.

Nadal close to his very best would NEVER hit 71 Unforced Errors.

No, his very best at AO would be against Verdasco where he hit only 25 UE and 50 Winners who was playing much better than Djokovic or Federer ever has against him at the AO.

The Nadal/Verdasco 2009 SF is the best and most emotional match I have ever watched from start to finish. Every single point was sensational from both players, every one. That's why they invited Verdasco to play Nadal in his Summer set. The AO 2012 was the longest match but not a classic. If that 2009 SF had been between Nadal and Federer, it would have had far more recognition.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
The Nadal/Verdasco 2009 SF is the best and most emotional match I have ever watched from start to finish. Every single point was sensational from both players, every one. That's why they invited Verdasco to play Nadal in his Summer set. The AO 2012 was the longest match but not a classic. If that 2009 SF had been between Nadal and Federer, it would have had far more recognition.

I guarantee if Nadal had won that 2012 AO final you'd be saying it was an all time classic. You're so predictable, it's just too funny. :)
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
1) I don't think Nadal would've drawn that much confidence out of that RG match. He knows Federer is capable of much more than that and he wouldn't be stupid enough to think Fed was going to keep playing at that level against him especially at Wimbledon.

2) Fish had never even gotten close to beating Rafa prior to that WIM11 match whereas Soderling almost took him down in WIM07 and was just coming off making his second RG final in a row. Ferrer made the QF twice at Wimbledon, Fish only once. He only made 4R once as well, every other time Fish was out early. Ferrer has also made 4R at WIM many times I believe, so yeah, Ferrer can play well on grass, he's not exactly a mug.

Here are Fish's stats against Nadal:

53% 1st serve
12 Aces
0 DF
29% return points won
27 UE
33 W

Sod in 2010

60% 1st serve
17 Aces
33% return points won
6 DF
35 UE
42 W

Nothing about those stats convinces me that Fish was the tougher opponent. Sod had a relatively much higher first serve percentage and with his monster serve, that means on grass he would've been much tougher to break than Fish who was only serving at 53% first serves yet still gave Nadal a lot of trouble. That's very unusual.



3) OK fair enough, but I don't see how you can say he was better in 2011, he only won 1 more game even though there was another whole set played compared to the previous year. In 2011 Murray folded early on in the second set and never got back into it. In 2010, he was more consistent and only reason he didn't get a set was because Nadal was better.



4) Yes it is a whole other discussion. I went over it a few times with Djokovic2011, even yesterday. I do think Nadal is better on fast HC than Novak. They both have 5 Masters on fast HC, but Nadal has 2 US Opens and as I said, the only year Novak got it was when the courts were slower.

People often forget how well Nadal actually played in the 2010 US Open final. They dismiss it as easy draw, Novak wasn't playing well all year etc, but to hit that many winners against him shows how confident he was.

Federer's highest ever winners count v Novak at US Open was 51 in 2008. 20 of them from Aces. Nadal hit 49 winners with only 8 of them aces. Of course, a winner is a winner, but the point I'm making is off the ground, Nadal performed better than Federer ever did vs Novak in terms of W/UE ratio.

In fact, I really believe that Fed would need to be in his 2004 US Open final form to have a realistic shot of beating Nadal that day.


5) Well again, I'm not really sold that Federer's confidence was shot after that RG final. Fed knows he's a lot better than that and so does Nadal so I'm sure he would've been able to shake that loss off relatively quickly. His form in Halle and Wimbledon showed no signs of lost confidence whatsoever, if anything it fired him up and knowing Fed he would've wanted to prove a point that he's MUCH better than what we all saw in that RG final.

It's the Wimbledon loss that really shook Fed's confidence, look at his results after that match until he won Olympics doubles. They were shocking for him.
1) As you said with Djoko-Rafa in 2011, the smallest change can make a huge difference, when the margins are small (paraphrasing). A match like that stings. Sure, both knew that grass was a different ball-game. But it's gotta have given Rafa believe than when he can do this to Fed on clay, he has a fairly good chance vs. him on grass too. And vice-versa.

2) You say the Sod is tougher, I say Fish is just as tough or tougher. I don't think there was much of a difference, which was my initial point. There are arguments for both. When that's the case, it's usually pretty equal. Fish beating Rafa the month after Wimbledon, him having a better career record on grass than the Sod and him straight-setting Birdman points to Fish. The stuff you mentioned points to the Sod. Either way - not too much of a difference imo and Rafa took care of them in pretty similar fashion too.


3) good points. But it might as well be that he folded because Rafa raised his level when he had to - I don't remember the match well enough to discuss it in more detail. Murray winning a mere 8 games in the last 3 sets are either due to him performing poorly, Rafa doing extremely well or a mix of both.

4) There's an argument to be made for Rafa being better than Novak on fast HC. Or equal. Not sure where I stand. By the way - the change in Rafa's W/UE errors from 2010 to 2011 vs. Novak could in part be described by
a) Novak's much improved defense in 2011
b) That resulting in Rafa going for too much/needing to hit the extra winner that then goes out (much like Fed vs. Rafa).
c) the mental aspect that we have discussed already

5) The Wimbledon loss was the nail in the coffin and hurt even more confidence, probably true. Again, Fed's confidence wasn't shaken that much if at all in general from the FO-loss, but in their match-up a loss like that hurts and it gives Rafa extra believe and Fed less believe. Hence the abysmal 1/13 BP stat - the worst Fed's ever done vs. Rafa outside clay in that regard (he went 1/17 in the 2007 RG final).
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
How the hell isn't AO 2012 final a classic? It will be remembered many years from now for being the longest GS match in history and for all the amazing rallies that made both players fall on court, and almost faint afterwards.

That final is atleast top 10 greatest matches in tennis history. Trust me, several years from now on people will worship that match.
 

dudeski

Hall of Fame
The Nadal/Verdasco 2009 SF is the best and most emotional match I have ever watched from start to finish. Every single point was sensational from both players, every one. That's why they invited Verdasco to play Nadal in his Summer set. The AO 2012 was the longest match but not a classic. If that 2009 SF had been between Nadal and Federer, it would have had far more recognition.

What about that DF on match point?
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
I don't know why you keep going after I give my opinion :lol: I mean what I say. I do get you, I just don't think you realize a match with Soderling in the form he was in isn't a match with Federer, who was almost taken out by Haas and Delpo.
Before he straight-setted the very same Söderling.
Otherwise, I agree. Injured or not, Rafa is a formidable foe for Fed at the FO (and any high-bouncing and/or slowish court). Could Fed had won it vs. Rafa that year? Possibly. But Rafa would still be the favorite going in.
 

dudeski

Hall of Fame
To answer OP's question. Yes, Novak will beat Nadal if Nadal somehow makes it far enough to play him. It might a take a while for that to happen since most likely Nadal will first have to fall enough in rankings so that they can meet in early rounds.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
I guarantee if Nadal had won that 2012 AO final you'd be saying it was an all time classic. You're so predictable, it's just too funny. :)

I wouldn't. Nadal won the USO 2010 and 2013 but they weren't classics as Nadal was in control most of the time. Even the 2008 Wimbledon final doesn't, IMO, beat the AO SF for drama because Nadal was running away with that match and it only got interesting when Fed won the 4th set TB. Nadal won the 5 setter final against Federer in AO 2009, but that was not a classic. The same applies to the 2013 FO SF between Nadal/ Djokovic where only the 5th set was a classic when Nadal hit 22 winners against Nole because Nadal actually served for the match in the 4th set..
 
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dudeski

Hall of Fame
I wouldn't. Nadal won the USO 2008 and 2010 but they weren't classics as Nadal was in control most of the time. Even the 2008 Wimbledon final doesn't, IMO, beat the AO SF for drama because Nadal was running away with that match and it only got interesting when Fed won the 4th set TB. Nadal won the 5 setter final against Federer in AO 2009, but that was not a classic.

Peak invincible Nadal lost to Murray in 2008 USO semi. Fed beat Djokovic.
 
2012 aussi final was one of the greatest match of all time, if not the best!! It had everything. As for the question, of course Nole can beat rafa again. In fact if they kept apart I think they could meet in this years final and if they do I quite confident Djokovic will win! Won't be easy but I think he got nadal's number on rod laver :mrgreen:
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
I wouldn't. Nadal won the USO 2008 and 2010 but they weren't classics as Nadal was in control most of the time. Even the 2008 Wimbledon final doesn't, IMO, beat the AO SF for drama because Nadal was running away with that match and it only got interesting when Fed won the 4th set TB. Nadal won the 5 setter final against Federer in AO 2009, but that was not a classic. The same applies to the 2013 FO SF between Nadal/ Djokovic where only the 5th set was a classic when Nadal hit 22 winners against Nole because Nadal actually served for the match in the 4th set..

Why wasn't AO 2012 final a drama, or 2008 etc?
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Saying Federer won because of Soderling is just the usual derision that goes on around here from "insert fanbase here" about "insert player here".

Federer still had to win the 7 matches. He didn't go through Nadal and unless Nadal was really hampered wouldn't of done. But I don't see why he shouldn't get credit for it, no one has ever beaten Nadal to win the FO before - that includes every clay great out there. I don't feel their accomplishments are lesser because they were lucky enough to not be borne adjacent to when Nadal was around.

It's to Federer's credit that he was able to fight and scrap to take his one shot by making 4 finals in a row. I don't think his road to the title was particularly weaker than many past draws for the French Open either.

Considering your view that Federer is an excellent clay courter the only reason you could have to trash his win is to rile someone up. We both know Federer's clay court abilities are worth at least 1 FO so it doesn't matter how he got it.

There was lots in merlinpinpin's post you could of singled onto...

Yep. Unfortunately it got to you instead of him :lol:
Who was the intended target if I may ask? Abmk?
He had a massive blister on his hand. He was not 100% fit and still won easily.
It really didn't affect his game at all in the semis or the finals.

Btw, where do you find the W/UE of old matches. Tennisabstract? Never really used it much, but perhaps I should.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Peak invincible Nadal lost to Murray in 2008 USO semi. Fed beat Djokovic.

My sub conscious tells me that Nadal should have won USO 2008 if he wasn't on his last legs going straight from winning OG, and Murray had lost in the 1st round in Beijing.
 
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Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
My sub conscious tells me that Nadal should have won USO 2008 if he wasn't on his last legs going straight from winning OG, and Murray had lost in the 1st round in Beijing.
that's gotta be it ;-) -
out of curiosity, which slam losses, if any, of Rafa's were in your opinion not due to
- injury
- tiredness
- mental burnout
- insert other issues

since say 2008?
I.e. which were 'fair and square' losses?
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
that's gotta be it ;-) -
out of curiosity, which slam losses, if any, of Rafa's were in your opinion not due to
- injury
- tiredness
- mental burnout
- insert other issues

since say 2008?
I.e. which were 'fair and square' losses?

All Rafa's losses were due to one of the above.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I think he would at Wimbledon. RG is doubtful after 6 losses, although we know he CAN beat Rafa on clay. USO and AO are the most interesting because things are not as clear-cut. I truly believe that on hard, anything could happen between the 2 on any given day.
I'm really, really hoping for another RafaNole clash at this AO and of course, I would much prefer it to happen in a final but that can't be helped when Rafa keeps missing whole chunks of a season, so I might have to settle for another blockbuster semi a la RG 2013.
 
I think he would at Wimbledon. RG is doubtful after 6 losses, although we know he CAN beat Rafa on clay. USO and AO are the most interesting because things are not as clear-cut. I truly believe that on hard, anything could happen between the 2 on any given day.
I'm really, really hoping for another RafaNole clash at this AO and of course, I would much prefer it to happen in a final but that can't be helped when Rafa keeps missing whole chunks of a season, so I might have to settle for another blockbuster semi a la RG 2013.

Good post I agree. I want another djokodal Slam final at Aussi open! :)
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Who was the intended target if I may ask? Abmk?

No, merlinperlin. His post was clearly designed to rile up fans so that's why.

It really didn't affect his game at all in the semis or the finals.

How do you know? How do you know he wouldn't have played even better without it?

There must've been some discomfort there, we can't pretend it didn't exist.

Btw, where do you find the W/UE of old matches. Tennisabstract? Never really used it much, but perhaps I should.

I use this site:

https://matchstat.com/tennis/h2h-odds-bets/Rafael%20Nadal/Novak%20Djokovic

Click on the bar graphs next to the scores.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
1) As you said with Djoko-Rafa in 2011, the smallest change can make a huge difference, when the margins are small (paraphrasing). A match like that stings. Sure, both knew that grass was a different ball-game. But it's gotta have given Rafa believe than when he can do this to Fed on clay, he has a fairly good chance vs. him on grass too. And vice-versa.

2) You say the Sod is tougher, I say Fish is just as tough or tougher. I don't think there was much of a difference, which was my initial point. There are arguments for both. When that's the case, it's usually pretty equal. Fish beating Rafa the month after Wimbledon, him having a better career record on grass than the Sod and him straight-setting Birdman points to Fish. The stuff you mentioned points to the Sod. Either way - not too much of a difference imo and Rafa took care of them in pretty similar fashion too.


3) good points. But it might as well be that he folded because Rafa raised his level when he had to - I don't remember the match well enough to discuss it in more detail. Murray winning a mere 8 games in the last 3 sets are either due to him performing poorly, Rafa doing extremely well or a mix of both.

4) There's an argument to be made for Rafa being better than Novak on fast HC. Or equal. Not sure where I stand. By the way - the change in Rafa's W/UE errors from 2010 to 2011 vs. Novak could in part be described by
a) Novak's much improved defense in 2011
b) That resulting in Rafa going for too much/needing to hit the extra winner that then goes out (much like Fed vs. Rafa).
c) the mental aspect that we have discussed already

5) The Wimbledon loss was the nail in the coffin and hurt even more confidence, probably true. Again, Fed's confidence wasn't shaken that much if at all in general from the FO-loss, but in their match-up a loss like that hurts and it gives Rafa extra believe and Fed less believe. Hence the abysmal 1/13 BP stat - the worst Fed's ever done vs. Rafa outside clay in that regard (he went 1/17 in the 2007 RG final).

On 1,2,3 and 5 we're just going to have to agree to disagree or keep going in circles.

With 4, I'll take option d) Nadal played much better in 2010 final than he did in 2011 final.

It was pretty obvious too, serving, ground strokes and intensity. The intensity really went away from Rafa in the 4th set in 2011.

Novak's defence was better in 2011 because the courts were slower.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
1) No, merlinperlin. His post was clearly designed to rile up fans so that's why.



2) How do you know? How do you know he wouldn't have played even better without it?

There must've been some discomfort there, we can't pretend it didn't exist.



3) I use this site:

https://matchstat.com/tennis/h2h-odds-bets/Rafael%20Nadal/Novak%20Djokovic

Click on the bar graphs next to the scores.
Hmm, didn't see merlinpin trying to rile anyone up

2) I don't. But iirc, he didn't talk about it after the semi (as opposed to the others) and he did beat Fed for the first time ever in straights in a slam outside RG 2008. It can't have been that bad and I don't recall thinking it affected his shots. How do you know it did?

3) Cheers! It seems to not have a 'winners' category, but two unforced errors (where the one below is winners?). And for Wimbledon, no winners, but just unforced errors
https://matchstat.com/tennis/h2h-odds-bets/Fernando Verdasco/Rafael Nadal
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
On 1,2,3 and 5 we're just going to have to agree to disagree or keep going in circles.

With 4, I'll take option d) Nadal played much better in 2010 final than he did in 2011 final.

It was pretty obvious too, serving, ground strokes and intensity. The intensity really went away from Rafa in the 4th set in 2011.

Novak's defence was better in 2011 because the courts were slower.
Sure on 1,2,3,5. And d)'s could be part of it too. But Novak's defense in general gained a lot in 2011. That's part of the reason why he was able to, for the first time ever, to hang with Rafa and outplay him at Rafa's own game throughout the season. His consistency and defense were second to none that season.
Plus e) slower courts makes for worse W/UE ratio if level of play stays the same.
All Rafa's losses were due to one of the above.
I hope you're not serious, but with you I really don't know.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Hmm, didn't see merlinpin trying to rile anyone up

2) I don't. But iirc, he didn't talk about it after the semi (as opposed to the others) and he did beat Fed for the first time ever in straights in a slam outside RG 2008. It can't have been that bad and I don't recall thinking it affected his shots. How do you know it did?

Because it was on the palm of the hand he uses to hold the racket. It must've caused some discomfort...

3) Cheers! It seems to not have a 'winners' category, but two unforced errors (where the one below is winners?). And for Wimbledon, no winners, but just unforced errors
https://matchstat.com/tennis/h2h-odds-bets/Fernando Verdasco/Rafael Nadal

Yeah Wimbledon 2008 stats are really hard to come by.

Here they are if you want them:

2008 WIM final:

Federer:

Winners >> 89
Unforced Errors >> 52

Nadal:

Winners >> 60
Unforced Errors >> 27

These were from the official Wimbledon site.
 
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