Will Federer get past Murray?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Tropikal_Knights, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

    Jun 12, 2012
    BUt in his prime he has lost to Rafa on HC more times than he's won apart from indoors where Fed obviously dominates Rafa.

    And Fed is consistently playing very well he has made at least the semi's at every major since WIM11 apart from USO12.

    In fact, really the only players that can stop him consistently are Rafa, Novak and it seems Berdych. If these guys weren't around he'd still most likely be winning 2+ majors a year...

    So his HC returning has been "inflated" and his h2h against Fed is "skewed" but Fed's slam count isn't "inflated". Oh the hypocrisy is super saijan level 4 here...

    It is because Clay is his best surface. You've been backed inot a corner here and you're back pedalling, much like your alt account Mandy...

    If AO was on clay Federer and anybody else would be completely powerless to stop Rafa from winning it apart from a major upset like Sod.

    Of course he could've possibly lost, but Rafa (at Roger's corresponding age at the time) would most likely win it.

    Yes so like I said it wasn't that easy for Fed, it's not like he won 6-0 7-6 6-0...

    Murray had all the momentum and was completely outplaying Fed in the first set last night and what happened in the second set? Murray was playing his top level and a slight drop would've allowed Rafa back in, but like I said we'll never really know.

    WOW the double standards on this site, I call a guy a nutcase and get 2 week ban and yet you can call me dumbo and an effin' hypocrite and continue on your merry ways. I hope I'm not pinching your nerves too much to get you that upset. BUt it is quite arrogant of you to think that Fed was playing nowhere near his best yet was still able to almost beat Murray who was playing his top level in his peak. It's just nonsense and time for a reality check, yes Fed is a legendary player, but he's not that good to be playing nowhere near his peak and get that close to beating a peak Murray.

    LOL so have you been stalking me for the last 9 years or something? I did watch it I even remember John Newcombe when asked his prediction he said my heart says Hewitt in 5 but my head says Fed in straights.

    Fed was under absolutely no pressure in that final he knew he had Hewitt's measure by then and Hewitt would've been scarred from the AO and WIM losses. Hewitt has never had the weapons to beat Fed at a major.

    That's because Fed couldn't win as many points against Rafa on clay.

    Well if Federer is as great as you say he should've served better in such an important match. Rafa wasn't really serving well either. It was ok, but 2012 serving was much better. Not to mention Nadal was exhausted after his semi, but like a true warrior he battled on and made your hero cry like a baby in front of the world...

    BTW I also already said he played better in 2012 imo as well.

    BUt like I said Nadal over reacts to niggles and given his knee history it would've definitely plagued his game.

    NOw this is getting silly. Hewitt and Nalby apply ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE NEAR as much topsin as Nadal does. Nadal's topspin FH jumps above Fed's shoulder height which gives him MUCH greater difficulty to consistently time it. It is widely known that Fed OHBH is exposed the most by Nadal.

    Fed wasn't sick he was out played. Face it. Your hero got thumped by a 17 year old going through puberty.
  2. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

    Dec 9, 2008
    yeah, fed's peak level was that good that even past his peak, with a significant decline, he's good enough to beat the rest of the field many times...

    face it >> peak fed would never ever go to 5 sets with falla, on grass , nearly losing it, he definitely wouldn't lose to berdych and probably not tsonga at wimbledon ... he didn't play terrible matches at a major like he did vs novak @ USO 2010 or vs berdych @ USO 2012 ....he sure as hell wouldn't look a bit powerless when compared to simon of all people ( AO 2011 2R , 2nd half of that match)

    fact >> return% points won on fast HC lesser than that on slow HC for most players, including nadal/agassi
    fact >> agassi played far more on fast HC than nadal did

    => in comparison to agassi, nadal's return stats on HC are 'inflated'

    fact >> 1 out of 4 slams are on clay, ~30% of the tour on clay
    fact >> 50% of fedal matches have been played on clay and 50% of their GS matches as well

    => h2h is skewed because of clay

    the weak era thing you guys bring up is only your opinion and total cr*p IMO ...

    eh, what the hell are you on about ?

    fact is the surface distribution was well known before they both started training ... if fed is better on grass, fast HC, slow HC .... that's to his credit ....

    not most likely to win at all, it would be a tossup ...

    yeah, it wasn't easy, neither was it that tough ... their AO 2007 encounter 'may' have been somewhat similar at best, but IMO would be a bit more lopsided than that considering gonzo absolutely pummeled him ... in any case, very very unlikely that it wouldn't be like their Wimbledon 07 final ....

    yeah, only murray had taken the first 2 sets off rafa, fed/murray split the first 2 sets ...quite a bit of difference ...

    it was his determination that pulled him through ..murray was outplaying him in set 2, but he held his nerve and took the TB ... the only part where he outplayed murray was the first half of set 4 ... his level of play in itself wasn't that good .... murray's FH was looking clearly more powerful , LOL !

    fed's actual play was nowhere near his peak ... his determination made it a good match on his part ... but near his best overall ... nope ...

    based on your observations , its obvious you never watched the match or else you have near zero observation skills ...having seen your comments on the fed-murray match, I'm beginning to think its the latter now ... hewitt was definitely playing better than he did @ the AO and better than he did @ wimbledon ...

    based on what was his serving much better ? clueless, he served pretty well in both matches - at a similar level .... his serve % was clearly more in the 2012 semi, but his mph were clearly more on both first and second in the 2009 final ; but then again, you sorely lack in observation skills

    except it didn't .. .federer just outplayed him ... there was no talk of injury before the match nor was he moving gingerly in the match .. he went on to play doubles immediately afterwards and singles and doubles the next tourney ....

    what I meant is not all said fed was perfect , even that time .. his BH while considered very good, was never said to be perfect .... players like hewitt/nalby did exploit it at times ...

    rafa's style of play causing fed major problems only came into prominence from 2006 onwards ...

    its a fact he was sick ... known much before the match actually began ...
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  3. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

    Nov 25, 2008
    In short, you don't play tennis and were just making fables as usual.


    You coach has everything you do with your lack of cogent argument while claiming you play tennis :) But no worries. I can see I toughed a nerve :)

    Shots are amazing in any given match. That does not however even come close to explaining the dynamics of a given match. So yes, it's fangirly. Try harder.

    You obviously haven't really properly heard Hewitt or Courier by nevermind. Your ignorance is way too obvious anyway so no worries.

    Grass at Wimbledon is no longer a low-bouncing surface. That is actually the biggest change in the surface (not so much the speed but bounce which has propelled not only Nadal but also players like Ferrer to do well on it).

    you're too desperate man. What does Federer's RG performance have to do with anything? Stick to argument you're trying to make first before bursting off with tangential arguments. Haven't you ever learned how to build constructives in an argument?

    I wasn't giving a technical analysis at all. Only defining the basis of Nadal's game which largely remains the same for all players and is at the heart of Roger's undoing against him.

    But Aces are legitimate winners. Why take them out?

    None of this has done anything to prove so far, that what nadal was doing was largley out-grinding and out-slugging errors. Infact most of Roger's errors are usually a function of playing overly drawn out points against Nadal or Nadal retrieving everything at hand. That's grinding. Try harder man. If anything the use of words "out of position" or "struggles to track down" etc essentially proves my point. Danke :)

    You'd be better advised to make intelligent arguments before launching ad hominem attacks. They only help others in furthering their cause of making a fool out of you. Not that it isn't entertaining of course, but still.. :)

    I didn't say Berdych usually chokes against Federer. I said he "did as usual" which is not to mean he did against Federer or that he does it in every big match that he might play. But his record against Nadal and Djokovic is self-evident. Learn to read, lol.

    NO, it's perfectly legitimate reason but it's not the only one, I'll give you that. Federer is a naturally offensive player and Nadal's game is like a vice-tight grip on his offense. As good as he has gotten over the years at playing defense, he's not the best in the business and cannot beat Nadal at his game nor play offense the way he's designed to play.

    huh? lol.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  4. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

    Jun 12, 2012
    Oh Really? He went to 5 sets against an unseeded Haas at 06 AO, he lost to a crippled Guga in straights and old crippled Agassi pushed him to 5 sets in 04USO and played a close match with him the next year in the final despite having been through three 5 set matches prior to that final. LOL.

    Oh and in case you forgot, Berdych did beat peak Fed in an important match.

    But you started with HC, then when I disproved your crap you changed stations to fast HC. LOL, when you say a player is a better returner than the other then you absolutely MUST include their overall return records on ALL surfaces. Not the ones that suit you. BTW I'm not disputing whether Agassi is a better returner than Nadal or not, but overall Hewitt isn't so you're wrong.

    Oh yeah? Answer this one; since 2004:

    Safin (1) + Hewitt (0) + Roddick (0) + Nalby (0) + Davy (0) + Agassi (0) = ONE single solitary slam win LOL.

    Nadal (8 ) + Novak (5) + Berdych (2) + Murray (1) + Del Potro (1) + Tsonga (1) + Soderling (1) = NINETEEN slam wins against Fed.

    Outside of slams FROM 04-07

    Safin + Hewitt + Roddick + Nalby (3) + Agassi + Davy = 3 wins out of 28 matches.

    Nadal (5) + Novak (1) + Murray (1) + Tsonga (dnp) + Soderling + Berdych (1) + Delpo = 8 out of 25 matches won against Fed DURING HIS PEAK YEARS.

    And let's not forget at the time these guys were beating him they were TEENAGERS! (except for Novak who I think might've been 20 :lol: ).

    So to say the old gen guys were just as tough as current gen is LUDICROUS and only stems from stupid biased ******* fantasy logic :lol:

    Not to mention Nadal OWNS Fed in outdoor HC meetings which are the conditions that the majors are in at AO and USO.

    The only shining light for you *******s is that he's lucky he never had to face prime Rafa at HC majors from 04-07 because he would've had a lot less slams by now. It would be even worse for him if prime Novak was around lol.

    And what the hell does that have to do with anything? Because the players knew 2 were on HC matters for nothing. Fed GREW UP PLAYING OUTDOOR CLAY and he still couldn't even take 2 sets off Rafa at RG what the hell makes you think any of these other players would've done better if they trained on clay if 2/4 were on that surface.

    More stupid ******* crap.

    Oh, come on, who else in Fed's draw would've beat prime Rafa? JC Ferrero? ROFPMSL!

    It was his toughest WIM match since winning it apart from Roddick 04 final. And don't say Hewitt 04 was tougher that's hogwash, Hewitt payed 2 visits to the bakery in that one to pick up a breadstick and a bagel. Fine showing from a former WIM CHAMP :lol:

    Nadal only lost the first set with a bagel because he was clearly nervous playing his first WIM final, he wasn't a past champ at the event.

    IF his level had dropped slightly, Rafa would've taken the third set had he remained fit. Murray played at a level he didn't reach again for the rest of the year in that match. Pretty tough to keep that up. Rafa also has more endurance than Fed and is also mentally tougher so he would've been up for battling back.

    Why wasn't Fed determined in 2011 and 2012 AO?

    Face it he was just as determined against Rafa and Novak as he was Murray. Yet all he could do against Novak was play junk tennis lol.

    He played quite well against Murray apart from the serve, which got better after the first set.

    LOL definitely better? Hewitt hit only IIRC 13W and had something like over 20UE with 55% first serves.

    At WIM he had 52% and more DF's so yeah that part of his game was slightly worse (he did have 5 DF in that USO final IIRC)

    BUt at AO he had over 60% first serves. and the W to UE ratio was also similar.

    The common thing in those matches is there was one set where Hewitt was able to be really competitive. The rest was a pushover.

    Observation skills? LOL so you can tell the difference in speeds between a 172k and 179k serve from your TV set in India? Damn you should've played you'd have the greatest return reflexes of all time.

    Fact is the reaction time difference when serves are 6 or 7k's faster is NEGLIGENT. It's something like 0.05s lol. Observation my arse.

    Wow you can also read minds from your TV set in India. Rafa said he felt it start in IW, doesn't mean it was serious from a pain stand point, but mentally that would've definitely weighed heavily on his mind given his past knee injuries. Heck, he panicked badly and was almost going to pull out of 2012 AO when he felt a pop or something in his knee. THat's why he taped it up.

    Rubbish, both McEnroe and Newcombe were saying they couldn't see any weaknesses in Fed's game and they were more concerned whether he could keep his consistency for the years to come during the 04AO.

    Hewitt and Nalby, especially Hewitt could NEVER exploit Fed's BH. Heck, even Agassi who was one of the best ground stroke players ever even said he didn't feel safe no matter which wing he hit to against Fed.

    Rafa was the first one to really expose it and he gave Fed 3 tough matches prior to 2006, 2 of which he won and the other he should've if he didn't uber choke.

    It's a fact he got his arse whipped by a kid with a game he had never seen before and had absolutely no answer to it.
  5. DragonBlaze

    DragonBlaze Hall of Fame

    Jun 9, 2008
    LOL I was just about to say this as well :lol:

    It's the same arguments again and again. And again.

    And again.

    And nobody ever changes their point of view :lol:
  6. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

    Dec 9, 2008
    here are some clues :

    AO 2011 :

    fed won 111 points, djokovic 119 points ..

    so fed won 48.26% of the points

    he had 35 winners to 44 unforced errors

    AO 2013 :

    fed won 151 points, murray 177 points ..

    so fed won 46% of the points

    he had 43 winners to 60 unforced errors

    game-wise, he stayed closer with djokovic in their match in 2011 than he did vs murray .......all the 3 sets in the AO 2011 SF were close .... went to a breaker in the first, fed was up 5-2 in the 2nd before novak came back, in the 3rd , fed broke back to get it 4 all and IIRC had BPs even after that ...

    in AO 2013 , murray was clearly better in the 1st, 3rd and 5th ...

    he hit 43 winners in a total of 328 points in the murray match - 13.1%

    he hit 35 winners out of a total of 230 points in the djoker match - 15.2%

    he made 60 errors out of a total of 328 points in the murray match - 18.3%

    he made 44 errors out of a total of 230 points in the djokovic match - 19.1%

    the rate of winners difference being clearly more (difference = 2.1%) than the rate of errors in the djoker match (difference = 0.8%)

    djoker hit 29 winners to federer's 35
    murray hit 62 winners to federer's 43

    even excluding aces,

    djoker hit 24 winners to federer's 30
    murray hit 41 winners to federer's 38

    fed's winners to error ratio was clearly better in the AO 2011 SF than in this match ; murray blasted more winners past him than federer did off the ground - are you effin' kidding me !?

    (for total winners, including aces, that difference becomes gigantic )

    (don't have service winner stats, but those are rare and won't make much of a difference here)

    even top form novak didn't blast more winners past fed , but murray did ( even off the ground )

    unless you are suggesting murray in AO 2013 final was considerably better than novak in AO 2011 SF, oh wait, you can't do that , he lost 2 sets ....

    you can't even say fed was clearly better game-wise in 2013, because he won a lesser % of points .......

    all things point to a weaker game from fed this time around, but being more determined this time around

    fact is his serve wasn't clicking, his FH had lost its pop, he was moving much slower than at his prime , especially to the right ... yes, his BH was solid, but that's was about the only + in the match , game-wise ...

    and finally a big LOL @ you LOLing at the junkballing ... he should've continued that and he'd have probably won that set , instead of going back to baseline bashing , given he wasn't close to his best and that ended up giving the rhythm back to novak
  7. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

    Dec 9, 2008
    haas , guga , agassi >>> falla, benneteau, no contest whatsoever ...

    agassi was nowhere near crippled in USO 2004, LOL, he was playing darn good tennis that summer ...you are just totally clueless ....

    kuerten had hip problems from 2002 onwards, but he did play brilliantly in that match vs fed @ RG 2004 ...

    yes, berdych beat fed in one match, where fed played cr*p, at the Olympics ...he lost 8 matches to him after that, barely winning sets or making a dent until that AO 2009 match ... why the hell was that ? surely berdych wasn't better in 2004 than he was from 2005-08 ?

    fact is fed absorbed and dealt with his pace ( both on serve/groundstrokes ) easily at the peak of his powers ... only past his best, he's had trouble vs him ...

    I never changed any station clueless ; agassi is a better returner than nadal, both slow HC and fast HC ... I only said that nadal playing more on slow HC than him brought their return stats closer than what it would have been if they had played near equal % on those surfaces ...

    add to it that that nadal's decline hasn't yet come .... agassi's slump years are included in those stats ... so all factors equal, it isn't close like you make it out to be ..

    again, like I showed, hewitt's stats are clearly better on HC and on grass , this inspite of hewitt already being in decline, him having played more on fast HC than rafa, inspite of having an inferior ground game ... so how is rafa close to hewitt as a returner ? fact is you are clueless and haven't watched much of hewitt at all

    I've answered this before, clueless , the main difference there is nadal ; while he improved, fed declined ...

    djokovic before 2011 played one slam match where he beat federer playing decent tennis, AO 2008 ..

    djoker 2011 onwards is different, but then your boy rafa had more trouble with him than fed did :lol:

    roddick @ wimbledon 04, USO 2007, wimbledon 2009 played quite a bit better than berdych did at wim 10 or USO 2012 or djoker did @ USO 2010, even better than delpo did in USO 2009 final ... but just that fed was clearly better on the former occasions than the latter

    somewhat similar cases with hewitt in wim 05, nalbandian in AO 2004, davydenko in AO 2006, agassi in USO 2004 etc ...

    of course the fact that they knew 2 were on HC should have mattered .....but then that's probably too tough for you to get ..

    I was talking about nadal-nalbandian being a tossup , clueless, learn to read ...

    yeah, but hewitt while getting bagelled and breasticked, still had BP at 4 all in the 4th set and was closer to taking the match to a decider than rafa was ....

    roddick in wim 03, scud in wim 03, ancic in wim 06, hewitt in wim 05 were on a similar level to rafa in wim 06, but fed played better in those matches and he matched up better vs them than vs rafa ....

    while rafa is mentally tougher overall , he hasn't come back many times from being down 2 sets to love ... federer has done that many more times than him, in fact ...

    Edit : I just checked, rafa has done it 3 times, while federer has done it 8 times ...


    I was talking about the tournament as a whole ; especially hewitt's form before the finals in the USO ... was better than his form before their AO or wimbledon encounters ...

    only one set was competitive in wimbledon 2004 ? really ? hewitt won the breaker in set 2, he had BP at 4 all in the 4th set ...

    in AO 2004, it was 4-6,6-4,6-0,6-3, only the 3rd set was not competitive ...

    then again, you are totally clueless

    the disordered one can't even make out the difference b/w one serve and average serve speed over a match, , LOL ....

    and you can read minds ? bwahaha ... there were no reports of any injury before the match, he went on to play singles and doubles @ miami ; hell even went on to play doubles in IW after he lost to fed ... yeah, surely that 'phantom' injury weighed on his mind

    face it, healthy nadal just got outplayed and thumped by fed ..

    just plain ignorance from *******, who has near zero clue of tennis before nadal .... hewitt and nalby did take advantage of fed's BH, whenever it was slightly off

    agassi had 4 matches out of 8 where he was competitive with fed, so how exactly did he stay competitive with him if not for BH to BH, movement was considerably worse, serve was worse, FH slightly worse ...just with a better return ? really ?

    of course none of them had close to the success that rafa did @ it, but even before that, whenever it was slightly off, players did know to pound his BH
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  8. Tropikal_Knights

    Tropikal_Knights Banned

    Jun 3, 2012
    Rafa aint around anymore so get over it........

    the dope messed up his body..............he needs to get clean before he comes back
  9. Fedex

    Fedex Legend

    Jul 2, 2009
  10. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

    Jun 12, 2012
    Thanks for backing up my point, he was just as determined against Novak in 2011 as he was against Murray. But his "determination" wasn't enough to push Novak to 5 sets, or even 4 for that matter. LOL.

    And yeah I find it extremely funny that the "greatest of all time" had to resort to junk balling because he struggled to hang with Novak on the baseline rallies. :lol:
  11. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

    Jun 12, 2012
    Yes but I though peak Fed is supposed to be an unstoppable force that nobody has a chance against "off clay". So explain how an unseeded Haas was able to push Roger to 5 sets? And explain how an old cripple Agassi was able to do it on Roger's best surface? :lol:

    So Agassi's spine defect went away for the 2004 USO. He must've asked it nicely...

    As for Guga, he wasn't at his peak, yet still belted peak Federer. And this was after his hip injury. Face it Fed got belted by a crippled Guga.

    And yeah that's not because Berdych has got better. He's been making slam semi's and quarters from 04-07 as well hasn't he? I believe he even made a mystical slam final somewhere in that period.

    Berdych showed his potential in that 04 match, but as a youngster (and as all youngsters really) he struggled to consistently play at that level which is why peak Fed was beating him.

    Since Berdych had got better he has had MUCH more success against Fed. Fed was 29 in 2010 WIM FAR from being too old lol.

    LOL why you keep cacking on about Agassi? Where did I ever say Rafa was a better returner than Agassi on HC? Point it out. All I said was his percentages are close... and they are which goes to show Rafa isn't as bad a returner on HC as you say.

    Rubbish, ALL surfaces must be counted to deem one player a better returner or not. Face it Rafa's overall return stats are better than Hewitt's, which in turn means he is a better returner. Unless you would like to isolate Fed's results and call Rafa the greatest of all time because he does so much better on clay. You can't have it both ways.

    Also, Hewitt's played about 100 more HC matches than Rafa, and his best results have come in IW where he won twice IIRC. In fact he has never won in Canada and only got to the quarters once. Hewitt has only made it to 6 HC Masters finals and Rafa has made it to 11 and is probably going to make it to more. Hewitt's results are therefore inflated because he got knocked out in earlier rounds...

    That's not a good answer Arrrrrbooooomk. The current gen were teens and still had more success against Fed than the 04-07 gen players. Heck, if you take Nalbandian out, Berdych has better success than all of them combined outside of slams. :lol: :oops:

    Yes Rafa did have a lot of trouble against 2011 Novak. But unlike you, I don't become a Novak hater, instead I admire his hard work and achievements. But it must be said since 2011, Nadal has beat Djoker 3 times which is the same amount as Fed despite playing the same amount of matches against him in that time period. In fact Novak only beat Rafa comfortably in 4 matches (2 clay Masters 2011 and WIM + USO 2011) whereas Novak beat Fed comfortably in 5 matches (RG2012 + AO2011 + Rome2012 + IW2011 + DUbai2011)

    So saying Rafa had more trouble is once again false from your part.
  12. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

    Jun 12, 2012
    You are using a few occasions where Roddick played well against Fed, but you are forgetting a rather important detail. Roddick was Federer's Pidgeon. This means that even when Roddick had his chances against Fed, the mental scarring would still cause him to lose. See the YEC match where IIRC Roddick had MPs and still lost. See the second set TB in WIM09 where Roddick missed a relatively simple BH volley. If he didn't have that mental scarring he probably would've won those matches. Same with 04 WIM when the rain delay threw his momentum off. I wouldn't call it Fed being much better rather than Fed getting lucky his opponent cracked. Berdych otoh was mentally strong enough to get on with the job.

    Not to mention that Hewitt, Davydenko and old Agassi have nowhere near as much power as Delpo or Berdych and are nowhere near as good as Novak defensively. Fed lost to them because they have more weapons.

    Oh yeah? Tell me how? Were they going to train more on clay? And this would matter how? Fed GREW UP ON OUTDOOR CLAY and still couldn't take even 2 sets against teenage Rafa at RG so what, are the other players going to do better than Fed are they? Oh and FYI I believe Novak also grew up playing on clay...

    "Not most likely to win it all, it would be a tossup"

    Yep, the back pedalling continues.

    How in any Universe is winning one set in a TB and then "having" BP at 4 all closer to taking it to 5 than:

    Winning one set in a TB and being up 5-4 in another set serving for it?

    It is inconceivable that merely having BP at 4-4 is closer than actually GETTING the break and serving for the set.

    More foolish **** logic at it's finest.

    I said since winning it l2r. BTW Roddick and Scud in 03 wasn't as tough a match as Rafa 06 anyway, they didn't get close to winning 2 sets.

    Few things:

    - Fed's played longer
    - Wessels retired in 2000 USO leading 4-3 in the fifth
    - Del Potro got injured in last year's RG semi
    - Most of them are early stages of majors

    I guess Rafa would show more fight if he let some journeymen go up 2 sets to love against him at RG or other majors.

    Oh so now the tournament as a whole matters. Didn't you say that final form differs from previous matches re WIM 07 and 08 finals? Iguess only when it suits you yeah :)

    In that case the fourth set at WIM06 was also competitive. So now that's 3 competitive sets to Hewitt's 2 from 04 WIM. Either way, Rafa gave Fed his toughest WIM match since Fed won it apart from Roddick 04.

    The difference is not that great, how come you can't understand that? It's not like Rafa was smashing in 200k first serves and then threw in a few 130k first serves to reduce the average to 179k.

    For Rafa to have a 7k higher average, he would been landing something like most first serves around the 185k mark and split the rest between 190k region and 170k region.

    AO 12 was probably around 180k mark for majority with a split between 190k and 165k first serve speed.

    So there is no thunderous serving difference there fool, the reaction times as I said would have been NEGLIGENT.

    No I can't read minds, but I'm not doing that, I listen to what Nadal said and he said he started feeling it in IW.

    They couldn't expose it like Rafa. Hence the 0 slam victories against him.

    Agassi said himself that he didn't feel safe going to any wing against Federer. Deal with it.

    Agassi also says that at 33 he felt he was a better player than at 25 (both times he was ranked #1). He also says that Roger NOW would beat Roger at 25. He also says the competition got tougher, admitting that today's field is tougher than the field he was part of. Hewitt has also said this. As has Coureir and many other tennis greats.
  13. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

    Dec 9, 2008
    yeah, only haas/agassi didn't get that close in the final sets or to beating him at any stage ......

    falla was serving for it (he could've won it in 3 ! ) and benneteau was 2 points away from it several times in the 4th set ... if you think the 2 sets of players/circumstances are remotely comparable, you're thicker than I even thought before and that's saying something ...

    agassi wasn't having any injury problems as such in that time and was playing darn well ....but then again, you wouldn't know ...

    kuerten wasn't at his peak, I've already said that, but he played an awesome match .... that happens >> but then you wouldn't know because you have near zero knowledge of tennis apart from rafa ...

    fed wasn't just narrowly beating him before 2009, berdych was barely getting sets off him .....fed was playing terrible in wim 10 as a whole and played a terrible match in USO 2012, which was the main reason for the loss ...

    yeah and what I said is that the %s being close is a misleading thing given :

    1. agassi played quite a bit more on fast HC
    2. agassi's slump years are covered, nadal's decline years are not

    that bold part made me LOL big time , bwahahaha ........ of course, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that rafa is better off the ground, could it ?

    eh , what ? since 2011,

    fed-djoker is 2-3 in slams, rafa-djoker is 1-3 in slams

    fed beat him @ RG on clay in 2011, when rafa was struggling to get a set off him on clay ..

    fed beat him @ wimbledon in 2012, while rafa lost to him in 2011 ...

    fed had MPs vs him @ the USO, while rafa had to make a big struggle to get one set ...

    only +ves in rafa's favour are his battle vs a clearly inferior djoker (to 2011 ) in 2012 ..... and his win @ RG in 2012 ....

    this is past his prime fed vs prime rafa ...

    and like I've said before, I don't hate rafa ..... I'm just putting a check on your clueless biased thoughts here ...
  14. ivan_the_terrible

    ivan_the_terrible Hall of Fame

    Jun 15, 2010
    Ralph's a juicer thereby negating all head-to-head stats.

  15. abmk

    abmk Talk Tennis Guru

    Dec 9, 2008
    lol, clueless, berdych was federer's pigeon as well, was 1-8 vs him before 2009, 0 sets in first 3 slam matches, far less competitive than roddick was ....that apart from fed picking up his level was one of the reasons for him losing in AO 2009 4R

    fact is fed was terrible in wim 10 QF and USO 2012 QF ...that's why berdych capitalized and was major part of the reason why he was able to remain 'calm' on those occasions ...

    roddick of course had blasted berdych off court in wim 09 in straights

    ferrer/hewitt etc have belted delpo/berdych off court

    davydenko blasted delpo off court in the YEC 2009 final as well ...

    he owns berdych h2h 9-2 as well ...

    the 2nd set TB missed volley in 2009 wim final was just that ...there was a moment of indecision from roddick whether to play it or leave it and the botched volley was the result ... roddick himself said that it was the indecision that cost him ...

    in any case, he managed to pick himself up to take the 3rd set to a breaker , won the 4th and the 5th went to 16-14 with roddick serving from behind to stay in the match plenty of times ...

    there wasn't that much of a scarring in wim 04 ... as for the rain, there were plenty of breaks in the match before the rain (federer had broken thrice, roddick had broken 4 times IIRC) ... roddick was ahead by a break in the 3rd set, that's it ...

    coming back to delpo, delpo won in USO 2009 because he was somehow able to hold on and capitalize on fed's mistakes .... stupid FH drop shot started the chain of events in the 2nd set ....fed served the worst he probably has in a GS match ... the only difference in the 4th set breaker was a DF from fed - mini-break ...

    their RG 2009 match, both were playing better and fed fended him off there ...

    lol, the 4th set in the 2006 final wasn't that competitive at all ...IIRC, fed was up a double break, but got a bit casual to get broken ....but then finished it off ....

    rafa played better but hewitt was closer to taking it to a decider , he had BP at 4 all in the 4th set ....

    a somewhat similar case would be fed-roddick USO matches in 2006 and 2007 ...roddick had some chance to go up 2-1 in the 2006 match though he played quite a bit better in the 2007 QF and didn't win a set ...

    it happens .....

    already said they couldn't do it like rafa did...doesn't mean they didn't couldn't/didn't expose his BH when it was slightly off ...
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013

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