Willliams days contending at Roland Garros past but overall underrated on clay

[NadalAgassi]

While I dont think Serena has much of a future at Roland Garros given her physical condition this year, and her being 30 or older in any future years, I do think she is very underrated career wise on clay.

She is probably the 2nd best clay courter of her generation after only Henin. She has been a more regular threat to win Roland Garros than anyone else other than maybe Kuznetsova. Clijsters could move into real contention for that title if she wins the French this year.

Venus is also underrated on clay. She underperformed at the French but still made a final and alot of quarters there over the years. She won all the tier 1 and tier 2 titles on the Calendar on clay in her career I believe.

 

[TMF]

2nd best clay player?

Kuz and Schiavon is better than her.
Throw in Stosur too, despite she doesn’t have FO title.

 

[BrooklynNY]

Why is Stosur better than Serena on clay again?

I missed that?

 

[TMF]

Why is Stosur better than Serena on clay again?

I missed that?

Arguably. She had a great run in 2010 including beating Henin, Serena at RG.

 

[JayChu]

i would even argue that ivanovic may be than stosur only because ivanovic has reached QF in 2005, F in 2007 and W in 2008

 

[Raiden]

This isn't even a maybe situation.

Of the players you mentioned Kuznetsova is clearly the better claycourter.

Also Capriati was better than Serena on this surface
.

 

[PCXL-Fan]

Arguably. She had a great run in 2010 including beating Henin, Serena at RG.

If thats the ONE of the highlights of Stosur's career, then i don't think there is an arguement. The question is over their entire career, not 1 or 2 years. Henin in 2010 was not the same player she was 3-5 years ago, neither is Serena.

 

[backhander]

Kuznetsova and Capriati are/were better claycourters than Serena
.

I understand that Serena has won a French Open title, but she is not a good claycourt player. She won with pure power, being physically stronger and bigger than every other player on tour.

Players I would say are better clay courters.....Hingis, Clijsters, Henin, Capriati, Dementieva, Kuznetsova, and Schiacvone, just to name a few. All those players have games more suited for clay and the movement that makes a good clay court player.

Serena deserved the French Open title that year, but it was almost a fluke win similar to some single slam winners.

 

[Raiden]

I do agree that Venus is underrated on clay.

The fact that she is very mobile and agile gave her advantage on the surface.

 

[boredone3456]

Serena is not the 2nd best Clay Courter of her generation. She won the French Open, yes, but she got lucky in the sense that she sneaked in to win before Henin really hit her prime, and was still lucky in the way she was able to avoid Henin(and when Henin left she still couldn't win it), who had beaten her on clay several times that year prior, to win. She almost lost in the SF to Capriati, and really should have lost, Capriati Gagged and then broke completely down. Since making the SF at the French the year of her title defense, she has done nothing there really, she lost one year to Srebotnik, has lost to Kuznetsova and Stosur as well, and outside of the French her clay court record and abilities are inconsistent and not all that great. For instance, in 2009 she went 0-3 on clay leading into the French....not good.

As for her being a favorite every year...she is hyped up by Carillo, Shriver, Fernandez, and all them because of who she is. One year the announce team said the Williams Sisters were the arguable favorites to win Roland Garros(2008 or 2009?)...which was really funny really because neither are at all great on clay.

As for the Greatest of her Generation on the Surface, I would rank them thusly
1. Henin- obvious

2. Kuznetsova- A title (beating Serena en route after being down a break in the 3rd), another final, many clay court finals, great sliding, shot variety...mentally in finals she is questionable but in terms of game she is up there

3. Clijsters- no French Opens but 2 finals, she arguably choked in 2001 and that one still kills me she should have won that one in my opinion the way she started that match. After Henin for a while she was arguably the 2nd best clay court player in the world. Good all court ability, another good slider.

4. Capriati- Won a title there, another couple of SF's...had a good game. Won the Olympic gold on clay and has more clay titles then Serena does...

5. Serena- I'll give her 5th, she did win the French. It was lucky, but she still won it, she has beaten Henin on Clay, and she overall ability to really intimidate a lot of the tour helps.

After this is gets murky...but

6. Dementieva (could be argued as better then Serena)
7. Schiavone (could be argued as better then Serena)
8. Ivanovic
9. Jankovic
10. Safina (stosur would probably be 11...sorry Myskina...Dementieva handed you your french)

 

[egn]

2nd best clay player?

Kuz and Schiavon is better than her.
Throw in Stosur too, despite she doesn’t have FO title.

SCHIAVONE is better??? They both have one french open title.. and both have only 3 clay court titles...

Serena however on top of a French Open has at least won a title in Rome the second largest clay court event. We won't even just go into comparing overall...Schiavone better than her....and Stosur lol. Kuzzy I'll give you but Schiavone. You have got to be kidding me have Schiavone even make two straight quarterfinals first.

 

[egn]

Serena is not the 2nd best Clay Courter of her generation. She won the French Open, yes, but she got lucky in the sense that she sneaked in to win before Henin really hit her prime, and was still lucky in the way she was able to avoid Henin(and when Henin left she still couldn't win it), who had beaten her on clay several times that year prior, to win. She almost lost in the SF to Capriati, and really should have lost, Capriati Gagged and then broke completely down. Since making the SF at the French the year of her title defense, she has done nothing there really, she lost one year to Srebotnik, has lost to Kuznetsova and Stosur as well, and outside of the French her clay court record and abilities are inconsistent and not all that great. For instance, in 2009 she went 0-3 on clay leading into the French....not good.

As for her being a favorite every year...she is hyped up by Carillo, Shriver, Fernandez, and all them because of who she is. One year the announce team said the Williams Sisters were the arguable favorites to win Roland Garros(2008 or 2009?)...which was really funny really because neither are at all great on clay.

As for the Greatest of her Generation on the Surface, I would rank them thusly
1. Henin- obvious

2. Kuznetsova- A title (beating Serena en route after being down a break in the 3rd), another final, many clay court finals, great sliding, shot variety...mentally in finals she is questionable but in terms of game she is up there

3. Clijsters- no French Opens but 2 finals, she arguably choked in 2001 and that one still kills me she should have won that one in my opinion the way she started that match. After Henin for a while she was arguably the 2nd best clay court player in the world. Good all court ability, another good slider.

4. Capriati- Won a title there, another couple of SF's...had a good game. Won the Olympic gold on clay and has more clay titles then Serena does...

5. Serena- I'll give her 5th, she did win the French. It was lucky, but she still won it, she has beaten Henin on Clay, and he overall ability to really intimidate a lot of the tour helps.

After this is gets murky...but

6. Dementieva (could be argued as better then Serena)
7. Schiavone (could be argued as better then Serena)
8. Ivanovic
9. Jankovic
10. Safina (stosur would probably be 11...sorry Myskina...Dementieva handed you your french)

Good list. I'd put Ivanovic ahead of Schiavone and agree Demetieva might have a case but results matter. Though I would disagree on some regards Serena does always usually play well in Rome as well France, but well for the standards I set Americans to on clay. QF or SFs. Serena is definitely not the second best.

On topic on Clijsters I think you are overrating her a slight bit..She does have two finals on clay, but in regards to the rest of her resume similar to Serena it is lack luster. In 2003 she basically did what Serena did outside of France a win in Rome and a runner up in Berlin. Her overall clay court record is not much superior to Serena we are talking (92-27) to (87-29). However I would edge Serena over her simply due to the fact is at the end of the day Serena came through and won her French while Clijsters failed. Henin or not she had her chances in 01 and was dominating Capriati but made way too many mistakes.

I'd do more or less

1. Henin
2. Kuz
3. Capriati
4. Serena
5. Clijsters
6. Dementieva
7. Ivanovic
8. Schiavone
9. Jankovic
10. Safina

But the same top 10 as you.

 

[boredone3456]

Good list. I'd put Ivanovic ahead of Schiavone and agree Demetieva might have a case but results matter. Though I would disagree on some regards Serena does always usually play well in Rome as well France, but well for the standards I set Americans to on clay. QF or SFs. Serena is definitely not the second best.

On topic on Clijsters I think you are overrating her a slight bit..She does have two finals on clay, but in regards to the rest of her resume similar to Serena it is lack luster. In 2003 she basically did what Serena did outside of France a win in Rome and a runner up in Berlin. Her overall clay court record is not much superior to Serena we are talking (92-27) to (87-29). However I would edge Serena over her simply due to the fact is at the end of the day Serena came through and won her French while Clijsters failed. Henin or not she had her chances in 01 and was dominating Capriati but made way too many mistakes.

I'd do more or less

1. Henin
2. Kuz
3. Capriati
4. Serena
5. Clijsters
6. Dementieva
7. Ivanovic
8. Schiavone
9. Jankovic
10. Safina

But the same top 10 as you.

I had a lot of trouble with 6-10, it was very gut reactionary. I think Mechanically Schiavone's game is slightly better on clay then Ivanovic and and I gave her that higher spot because of that. Its close, really between them and even Arguably Jankovic who although she doesn't have a title or a final she is still good on clay mechanically and I thought for a while she would beat Ana in their French SF battle. And maybe its my own personal pulling for Dementieva over the years but i do think she is very underrated on clay and for her abilities in General. Her Serve stunk and it cost her a french, but she still could construct points on clay fairly well, at least in my opinion which is debatable haha.

I do agree Results matter, its just hard when outside the French some of these ladies don't have a lot. I had trouble even with Kim...2 Finals at the French, she got completely spanked by Henin but during that time she got spanked by her a lot...sooo...but she was arguable as 2nd best to her on clay so I tried to give her some benefit for that. But her clay resume apart from the French is a little lax...so I can see where you're coming from on her. She is tough...I think though her mechanics are better even if she doesn't have the French to back it up. Just having a French doesn't make you all that amazing a clay court player, I'd say Majoli is worse on Clay then Hingis and she beat her for a french, and Myskina didn't even make my list. I dunno, I do understand your point..she is tough.

 

[BrooklynNY]

Arguably. She had a great run in 2010 including beating Henin, Serena at RG.

Are you saying that Arguably, having a French Open title is no more significant than not having one? And beating former French Open champs is just as good as winning the title?

 

[egn]

I had a lot of trouble with 6-10, it was very gut reactionary. I think Mechanically Schiavone's game is slightly better on clay then Ivanovic and and I gave her that higher spot because of that. Its close, really between them and even Arguably Jankovic who although she doesn't have a title or a final she is still good on clay mechanically and I thought for a while she would beat Ana in their French SF battle. And maybe its my own personal pulling for Dementieva over the years but i do think she is very underrated on clay and for her abilities in General. Her Serve stunk and it cost her a french, but she still could construct points on clay fairly well, at least in my opinion which is debatable haha.

I do agree Results matter, its just hard when outside the French some of these ladies don't have a lot. I had trouble even with Kim...2 Finals at the French, she got completely spanked by Henin but during that time she got spanked by her a lot...sooo...but she was arguable as 2nd best to her on clay so I tried to give her some benefit for that. But her clay resume apart from the French is a little lax...so I can see where you're coming from on her. She is tough...I think though her mechanics are better even if she doesn't have the French to back it up. Just having a French doesn't make you all that amazing a clay court player, I'd say Majoli is worse on Clay then Hingis and she beat her for a french, and Myskina didn't even make my list. I dunno, I do understand your point..she is tough.

Yea agreed for the most part outside of say Henin since Graf nobody has been great on clay to compare. Majoli and Mysinka I agree were embarrassing French Open champions. Hingis played a bad match and Dementieva as usual forgot how to serve. Yea in terms of games built for the surface though I agree Clijsters definitely has a better built game for clay than Serena. I still can't believe she hasn't won a french...however something tells me this year that will most likely change.

 

[NadalAgassi]

2nd best clay player?

Kuz and Schiavon is better than her.
Throw in Stosur too, despite she doesn’t have FO title.

Currently right now yes. Career wise definitely not. Well Kuznetsova you could make an argument atleast, but Schiavone or Stosur, no way. Do you want me to list the comparative clay court credentials of those 3 women. Schiavone and Stosur overall arent even close right now.

 

[NadalAgassi]

This isn't even a maybe situation.

Of the players you mentioned Kuznetsova is clearly the better claycourter.

Also Capriati was better than Serena on this surface
.

Capriati is not a player of Serena's generation. She won all her slams before Serena even won her 2nd, and she retired way back in 2004 while Serena was still #1 in the World as late as last year. Anyway when both were at their best in 2002 on clay Serena beat her twice in a row.

I agree you could argue Kuznetsova. She is the only one you could argue though. Clijsters if she wins the French this year will probably be over both though.

 

[NadalAgassi]

On another note what makes Dementieva a better clay courter than Jankovic? I would give Elena the edge on all other surfaces, but not on clay. I think some of you overrate her as a clay courter. It is funny how some of you call others finals or titles flukes, but Dementieva beat Paula Saurez to make the final then gets killed by Myskina. And didnt she make it back to only 1 semifinal there. What is so great here.

 

[TMF]

For some of you who hold on to the FO title as the sole(if only) argument to support that particular player, that isn’t an accurate assessment. Stosur doesn’t the title, so you quickly eliminate her. I think Stosur with that massive fh has the edge over Serena. She was the favorite to win last year FO, but Schiavone beat her has a lot to do with great movement and play great defense, something that I don’t think Serena can match on clay. If you saw the match, Schiavone was able to hold of Stosur’s fh onslaught, she was consistent, better grinder and tougher. These two players can beat Serena. The surface doesn’t help Serena’s serve and power, and she’s not a great grinder either. Stosur proved that her fh can be get the best of Serena and Schiavone will just out grind Serena.

 

[TMF]

Are you saying that Arguably, having a French Open title is no more significant than not having one? And beating former French Open champs is just as good as winning the title?

Serena’s 2002 FO wasn’t one of the great quality. I’m a Ivanovic fan and even admit that her run in 2008 wasn’t that great either. The trouble is all you see is Serena FO winner vs. Stosur finalist, therefore Serena > Stosur. That doesn’t tell the whole story. Watch the match, I don’t think Serena have the stamina of Stosur. And remember that wicked kick serve?

 

[BrooklynNY]

Serena’s 2002 FO wasn’t one of the great quality. I’m a Ivanovic fan and even admit that her run in 2008 wasn’t that great either. The trouble is all you see is Serena FO winner vs. Stosur finalist, therefore Serena > Stosur. That doesn’t tell the whole story. Watch the match, I don’t think Serena have the stamina of Stosur. And remember that wicked kick serve?

I admit there was a bit of devils advocate in my post. I do agree that Stosur has all the weapons to be devestating on clay and even in general, but her loss to Schiavone as the clear favorite clearly demonstrates she needs work in the mental department.

I still give the edge to Serena, because her only loss to Stosur on clay was 8-6 in the third at the French.

8-6 in the 3rd is too close to say that Stosur is better on clay. Especially given Serena's tenacity and mental game.

 

[boredone3456]

I admit there was a bit of devils advocate in my post. I do agree that Stosur has all the weapons to be devestating on clay and even in general, but her loss to Schiavone as the clear favorite clearly demonstrates she needs work in the mental department.

I still give the edge to Serena, because her only loss to Stosur on clay was 8-6 in the third at the French.

8-6 in the 3rd is too close to say that Stosur is better on clay. Especially given Serena's tenacity and mental game.

I'd agree, Stosur has all the weapons that she could develop, and should she on clay this year match what she did last year or should she win the French, I might give some merit to Stosur possibly being on the radar maybe more than I would put her now. 2010 was a good year on clay and like you said she has the tools, but mentally I don't know if she is really ready. She gagged out at Wimbledon and the Australian, and no thats not clay but that really brings her mentality into question...she'll be a favorite for the clay season...if she can duplicate...we'll see. She beat Serena, but it was a dog fight the whole way and Serena did look a little tight in the endgame. I'd still put Serena over her, Serena may not have all the mechanics, but her Tenacity, Mental Strength and pure ability to intimidate count for a lot. Should Stosur win a French..the argument would deepen..but really 1 year of clay results is tough.