Wilson Stan Smith

[Moldyoak]

Here's one that may be a bit obscure. So I have a number of Kramer autos, and many of them have original brown/white head covers with the Wilson name and 'Jack Kramer Autograph' in text. Same with my Kramer pro staffs - very similar cover with just slightly different text indicating a PS rather than a Kramer auto. These all are very late 1960s or 1970s.

So I also have a couple of Stan Smith autos, but they are sad and cover-less. So I started to do some digging and frankly I don't ever think I've seen a specific Wilson head cover for a Stan Smith auto. They *seem to be* of the a similar era to some of the Kramer autos. Did a dedicated cover exist for these?

Inquiring minds want to know! Anyone ever seen one or have one?

 

[TennisLBC]

The first tennis racquet I bought was a Wilson Stan Smith, back in the fall of 1982. They may have been dedicated cover, but I was given a generic blue Wilson cover.

 

[Backspin to the Future]

I`ve had a brief look online for vintage Wilson adverts that might have shown individualised head covers -but with no luck.
I have J.K,B.J.K, S.S and Chris Evert Auto`s -all drew a blank.
The top end Chris Evert Pro Staff and the Advantage models did have tailor made covers though

 

[Moldyoak]

I`ve had a brief look online for vintage Wilson adverts that might have shown individualised head covers -but with no luck.
I have J.K,B.J.K, S.S and Chris Evert Auto`s -all drew a blank.
The top end Chris Evert Pro Staff and the Advantage models did have tailor made covers though

Yep, that's what seems somewhat strange to me. Many of them of the same era did get their own covers, but the Stan Smith which clearly was being made in the 70s when many others were getting their own covers always (as far as I've seen, to date) turns up coverless. And frankly, I'd rate the SS auto over the JK at least for my preferences.

My preferences are SS auto > JK auto > JK PS.

 

[gooberwho]

Correct string pattern for the Stan Smith Auto is 18x20, right? I bought one with a broken string from a thrift shop and somehow they added 2 extra crosses, making it 18x22...

 

[Moldyoak]

Yes, 18X20, same as Kramer auto and wood PS. Mains skip 9T. First crosses top and bottom should be 7H and 7T.

The Stan Smiths in my opinion are the stiffest and feel the most solid - comparing weight for weight (i.e 'light' or 'medium' or 'heavy' as noted on the racquet) out of the Smith, Kramer auto and PS trio. The Kramers are similar but a little flexier and the PS feel very flexy all through the throat to me. But not good flexy (again, to me).

 

[Grafil Injection]

Yes, 18X20, same as Kramer auto and wood PS. Mains skip 9T. First crosses top and bottom should be 7H and 7T.

The Stan Smiths in my opinion are the stiffest and feel the most solid - comparing weight for weight (i.e 'light' or 'medium' or 'heavy' as noted on the racquet) out of the Smith, Kramer auto and PS trio. The Kramers are similar but a little flexier and the PS feel very flexy all through the throat to me. But not good flexy (again, to me).

If you have a pair of callipers, what are the beam dimensions at the top of the hoop of the Stan Smith? Perhaps it was slightly thicker or broader than the others.

 

[Moldyoak]

If you have a pair of callipers, what are the beam dimensions at the top of the hoop of the Stan Smith? Perhaps it was slightly thicker or broader than the others.

Give me a day or two and I will post dimensions. I have about 5-6 smiths and probably 10 or more Kramers, and I think 5-6 pro staffs.

Also, it's visually obvious that the central portion of the neck from the grip up to the base of the hoop on all of these is essentially the same thickness in cross-section, but the added 'flakes' or tapered add-on pieces vary. PS are the shortest, just an inch or so above the grip with a very abrupt border. Most of the flex in these is in the neck and you can feel it. The Kramers have a longer taper or flake section added to the central basic neck portion, and the Stan Smiths have the longest and heaviest in appearance, similar to the Dunlop forts with the substantial thickening through the neck from the grip and reaching up much closer to the base of the hoop.

The Kramer's use fiberglass I believe along the lower outsides of the hoop for reinforcement but I'm pretty positive the Smiths use rawhide. Sure looks like it.

 

[Moldyoak]

If you have a pair of callipers, what are the beam dimensions at the top of the hoop of the Stan Smith? Perhaps it was slightly thicker or broader than the others.

I measured a few different of each model - SS, JKA and PS. I focused on the pieces I have that were barely used if at all, i.e. no scuffing at top of hoop/original finish without any scuffing or potential 'smoothing' by stringers. All three models measured right at the top of the hoop between the two center mains are .615 to .630 face to face, and .565 to .580 inside to outside. Also, I should add that after stringing just about all of mine, I barely need to adjust the two point clamps on my rinky dink little Klipper when doing any of these Wilsons. I do need to make noticeable adjustments going from any of these to a Maxply or a Vilas.

This really reinforces my belief that these Wilsons are all basically the same "core" racquet, with the differences in stiffness being either wood type chosen in the laminating process or the length of the grip flake/reinforcement up the length of the throat. Possibly the fiberglass or rawhide reinforcement around the lower side edges of the hoop may have contributed also, but frankly that is so thin that I have my doubts as to what effect it may have had. It may have been more decorative than anything, kind of like those little diamonds on the SS lower hoop.

Wasn't there someone famous who wrote a book (the name escapes me at the moment) and stated that all of the Wilson 'autographs' were basically the same racquet?

 

[Grafil Injection]

I measured a few different of each model - SS, JKA and PS. I focused on the pieces I have that were barely used if at all, i.e. no scuffing at top of hoop/original finish without any scuffing or potential 'smoothing' by stringers. All three models measured right at the top of the hoop between the two center mains are .615 to .630 face to face, and .565 to .580 inside to outside. Also, I should add that after stringing just about all of mine, I barely need to adjust the two point clamps on my rinky dink little Klipper when doing any of these Wilsons. I do need to make noticeable adjustments going from any of these to a Maxply or a Vilas.

This really reinforces my belief that these Wilsons are all basically the same "core" racquet, with the differences in stiffness being either wood type chosen in the laminating process or the length of the grip flake/reinforcement up the length of the throat. Possibly the fiberglass or rawhide reinforcement around the lower side edges of the hoop may have contributed also, but frankly that is so thin that I have my doubts as to what effect it may have had. It may have been more decorative than anything, kind of like those little diamonds on the SS lower hoop.

Wasn't there someone famous who wrote a book (the name escapes me at the moment) and stated that all of the Wilson 'autographs' were basically the same racquet?

The CEA and JKA I've measured were very square beamed too, and look like the same 'layups'. Converting your figures, they're all about 14.5mm x 15.5mm. So the use of different handle flakes and amount of fibreglass would be the big differentiator for the Wilsons.

The Vilas Tour is like half-way between the Wilsons and normal Slazengers, with its 17mm x 13mm beam like most UK models, but square edges and a short handle flake like a JKPS. That's the most stiff and crisp feeling Standard wood I've played.

 

[Moldyoak]

The CEA and JKA I've measured were very square beamed too, and look like the same 'layups'. Converting your figures, they're all about 14.5mm x 15.5mm. So the use of different handle flakes and amount of fibreglass would be the big differentiator for the Wilsons.

The Vilas Tour is like half-way between the Wilsons and normal Slazengers, with its 17mm x 13mm beam like most UK models, but square edges and a short handle flake like a JKPS. That's the most stiff and crisp feeling Standard wood I've played.

Wait... what are you calling a 'Vilas Tour?' I have I believe 6 or 7 Head Vilas racquets, which are without a doubt my favorite woods, period. I did just grab a very clean Slazenger V24/Vilas, which is a bit harder to come by here in the the US, but I'm in the process of building up the grip with balsa wood as it's an L2 which is simply silly small for my preference. Don't know how I'm going to like it yet but it does feel fairly head-heavy and for some reason when playing with woods, I feel like I'm 'cheating' using those that are larger than the original standard. Silly, I'm sure.

I know Slazenger made a nice monoshaft Vilas racquet but I haven't been able to grab one as yet - all I seem to keep finding are juniors, or crazy overpriced pieces in Europe because the shipping and fees to the US right now are nuts. Is that the racquet of which you speak?

It may sound obscene but stringing a Head Vilas up with gut 16 at @ 65+ lbs is just unbelievable for me, personally. It's gold.

 

[Grafil Injection]

Wait... what are you calling a 'Vilas Tour?' I have I believe 6 or 7 Head Vilas racquets, which are without a doubt my favorite woods, period. I did just grab a very clean Slazenger V24/Vilas, which is a bit harder to come by here in the the US, but I'm in the process of building up the grip with balsa wood as it's an L2 which is simply silly small for my preference. Don't know how I'm going to like it yet but it does feel fairly head-heavy and for some reason when playing with woods, I feel like I'm 'cheating' using those that are larger than the original standard. Silly, I'm sure.

I know Slazenger made a nice monoshaft Vilas racquet but I haven't been able to grab one as yet - all I seem to keep finding are juniors, or crazy overpriced pieces in Europe because the shipping and fees to the US right now are nuts. Is that the racquet of which you speak?

It may sound obscene but stringing a Head Vilas up with gut 16 at @ 65+ lbs is just unbelievable for me, personally. It's gold.

The Vilas-Tour I was referring to is the Slazenger monoshaft Vilas used in 1982 before moving to the V-24. It was a hastily renamed Argentina model from 1981. It is rather unique compared to other Slazengers (and most other UK Standard woods) in that it has a square edged hoop (not rolled), probably because of the 2/3 length fibreglass reinforcement. It's a lovely hitting Standard wood, with a stiff response and large sweetspot. That and the V-24 were both unique models from the Horbury factory, not borrowed by any Dunlop models, as far as I can tell.

The V-24 is clearly a easier stick to play being 84sqi, but the Vilas Tour is definitely one of the best monoshaft Standard woods, and as mentioned, is kind of like a hybrid between and Wilson and a typical Slazenger. Interestingly, mine is 26.75'' long, which I'd like to know if it was the official spec.

What's the weight of your V-24? My M5 is 400g ish, so I'm still looking out for a LM 3-4 around 380g for a bit more manoeuvrability.

 

[Moldyoak]

The Vilas-Tour I was referring to is the Slazenger monoshaft Vilas used in 1982 before moving to the V-24. It was a hastily renamed Argentina model from 1981. It is rather unique compared to other Slazengers (and most other UK Standard woods) in that it has a square edged hoop (not rolled), probably because of the 2/3 length fibreglass reinforcement. It's a lovely hitting Standard wood, with a stiff response and large sweetspot. That and the V-24 were both unique models from the Horbury factory, not borrowed by any Dunlop models, as far as I can tell.

The V-24 is clearly a easier stick to play being 84sqi, but the Vilas Tour is definitely one of the best monoshaft Standard woods, and as mentioned, is kind of like a hybrid between and Wilson and a typical Slazenger. Interestingly, mine is 26.75'' long, which I'd like to know if it was the official spec.

What's the weight of your V-24? My M5 is 400g ish, so I'm still looking out for a LM 3-4 around 380g for a bit more manoeuvrability.

I'll weight it tomorrow when I go back out to the shop and will let you know. It's unstrung at the moment and has no grip material or cap yet, but you can probably estimate from there assuming gut stringing and a leather grip.

Mine has a round piece of lead at the base of the grip in the 'hole' drilled up through the grip, but it's firmly affixed and I can't tell how thick it is or how much is weighs. It definitely looks factory, though, I assume for balance.

You've got me drooling to find one of those Vilas Tour racquets now. I'm going to be on a mission.

 

[Moldyoak]

What's the weight of your V-24? My M5 is 400g ish, so I'm still looking out for a LM 3-4 around 380g for a bit more manoeuvrability.

Right now it's 342g with no grip, cap or strings.

 

[Grafil Injection]

Right now it's 342g with no grip, cap or strings.

Sounds good. Should be around 385g then, which is probably ideal. Interesting that they weighted the handle, but I guess with a larger hoop and thick graphite lamination it was required to maintain the 'Light in Head' balance.

 

[Moldyoak]

Sounds good. Should be around 385g then, which is probably ideal. Interesting that they weighted the handle, but I guess with a larger hoop and thick graphite lamination it was required to maintain the 'Light in Head' balance.

I should finish it up in the couple of days so when I do, I'll weigh it again just for fun.

 

[Frankc]

On " all Wilsons are the same," that was Scanlon's book, I believe.
In total agreement that a Vilas @ 65 with good old school gut is bliss. Wood play was just a different game - cannot be compared to composite frames and later graphite. Just different games...
IMHO, Wood play was a better game - far more variety and interesting patterns and challenge...

 

[Grafil Injection]

On " all Wilsons are the same," that was Scanlon's book, I believe.
In total agreement that a Vilas @ 65 with good old school gut is bliss. Wood play was just a different game - cannot be compared to composite frames and later graphite. Just different games...
IMHO, Wood play was a better game - far more variety and interesting patterns and challenge...

The V-24 plays like a 95sqi racket - and rock solid.

 

[michael valek]

The Vilas-Tour I was referring to is the Slazenger monoshaft Vilas used in 1982 before moving to the V-24. It was a hastily renamed Argentina model from 1981. It is rather unique compared to other Slazengers (and most other UK Standard woods) in that it has a square edged hoop (not rolled), probably because of the 2/3 length fibreglass reinforcement. It's a lovely hitting Standard wood, with a stiff response and large sweetspot. That and the V-24 were both unique models from the Horbury factory, not borrowed by any Dunlop models, as far as I can tell.

The V-24 is clearly a easier stick to play being 84sqi, but the Vilas Tour is definitely one of the best monoshaft Standard woods, and as mentioned, is kind of like a hybrid between and Wilson and a typical Slazenger. Interestingly, mine is 26.75'' long, which I'd like to know if it was the official spec.

What's the weight of your V-24? My M5 is 400g ish, so I'm still looking out for a LM 3-4 around 380g for a bit more manoeuvrability.

There are actually lighter cricket bats than this frame.

 

[Moldyoak]

I'm going to weigh a few of my Stans next, because honestly, I think all of mine are 4 5/8 and I don't think the M rated frames are much lighter at all. I have a JKA 'professional select' that is over 400g in 4 5/8 or 3/4 (will have to double check) that I absolutely love, and I have a Maxply that is 4 3/4 Heavy that is also over 400g iirc. My "maxply pig."

These V24 look (with the grip removed) to have been all made to a standard platform and probably categorized as L or LM or M, and then different 'grip pallets' were added depending on desired grip size. Of course, they're made of wood, but the style and glued attachment around the central continuous shaft are just like regular Head or Volkl pallets for example. And they're hardwood, I think oak although I'm not up on Euro woods as much as I am Yankee woods . So, my building up of the grip with balsa is not going to yield the same average weight as if it came from the factory with a 4 or 5 hardwood grip. It feels noticeably head heavy, more so than simply adding a good leather grip is going to adjust. I think some lead is in order for my taste. Going to shoot for 390-395 as the grip should work out to a 4 large, maybe a 4.5-ish.

 

[kevin qmto]

I saw a Belgian made Stan Smaith Capri recently in like new condition. Felt pretty great but I've got about 20 more woodies than I need and it's not one that sparked enough interest to get it after a long internal debate.

 

[Moldyoak]

I saw a Belgian made Stan Smaith Capri recently in like new condition. Felt pretty great but I've got about 20 more woodies than I need and it's not one that sparked enough interest to get it after a long internal debate.

I have wondered about those SS 'capri' models, and where they were made, because I've not seen one but kind of assumed that they were being farmed out somewhere. I'd be curious to know how they compare to a standard 70s Stan Smith and what 'capri' was supposed to mean. Were they more lightly built?

For some reason all that comes to mind are wine coolers.

 

[kevin qmto]

I have wondered about those SS 'capri' models, and where they were made, because I've not seen one but kind of assumed that they were being farmed out somewhere. I'd be curious to know how they compare to a standard 70s Stan Smith and what 'capri' was supposed to mean. Were they more lightly built?

For some reason all that comes to mind are wine coolers.

Donnay’s facilities made all of Wilson’s Belgian sourced woods as far as I know. They were usually mid end frames, and several Wilson sponsored players had a ‘Capri’ frame, including Billie Jean King, Tony Trabert, Maureen Connolly, Jimmy Connors, and Don Budge.

 

[Moldyoak]

Sounds good. Should be around 385g then, which is probably ideal. Interesting that they weighted the handle, but I guess with a larger hoop and thick graphite lamination it was required to maintain the 'Light in Head' balance.

Just as a follow up, with a Fairway grip and Klip gut 16 it's at 395, but I did add 10g of lead (I weighed it before install) directly under the cap to balance it out to my taste. So, your estimate of 385 (without the lead) was spot on!

 

[Grafil Injection]

Just as a follow up, with a Fairway grip and Klip gut 16 it's at 395, but I did add 10g of lead (I weighed it before install) directly under the cap to balance it out to my taste. So, your estimate of 385 (without the lead) was spot on!

Nice. Let me know how the gut plays.

 

[esgee48]

Almost 14 oz which ain’t bad.

 

[Frankc]

WE already know how the gut plays in wood - superb...

 

[Moldyoak]

To stay on topic (I do tend to diverge frequently), I just saw on 'the auction site' someone selling a brand-spanking-new-never-used Stan Smith that actually still has the sell tag attached. I blatantly stole the photo (sorry whoever you are) and am going to post it here because it is some seriously good information. It verifies that these were specifically made to be stiffer than the rest of the Wilson woods at the time, and also seems to indicate that the first year of introduction was 1976. A bicentennial racquet!

 

[Grafil Injection]

To stay on topic (I do tend to diverge frequently), I just saw on 'the auction site' someone selling a brand-spanking-new-never-used Stan Smith that actually still has the sell tag attached. I blatantly stole the photo (sorry whoever you are) and am going to post it here because it is some seriously good information. It verifies that these were specifically made to be stiffer than the rest of the Wilson woods at the time, and also seems to indicate that the first year of introduction was 1976. A bicentennial racquet!

Seems to confirm that the longer (and presumably heavier) handle flake is the main difference to the other Autographs.

 

[Moldyoak]

Kind of makes me laugh a bit - they sure did play up the aspect of it being a "man's" racquet!

(Meanwhile, Jack Kramer stifled a sob and some tears...)

 

[kevin qmto]

Kind of makes me laugh a bit - they sure did play up the aspect of it being a "man's" racquet!

(Meanwhile, Jack Kramer stifled a sob and some tears...)

Stuff was so gendered back then. It was that way across the board.

 

[Frankc]

Ashe stated that he liked the Trabert/Budge Wilson because it played "stiff." He also ran through new frames real quick...

 

[Moldyoak]

Also very interesting, if you look at the Chris Evert autos, they look like essentially the same racquet as the SS auto with the longer flake reinforcement, except the wood type is different. The Smith uses a tight grain white wood, either maple or beech (I suspect maple) while the Evert uses what looks like walnut, more open grained. I should add the long dark 'triangle' on the SS is just a dye or paint job, just like the diamonds on the hoop. But the Evert is actually a dark, more open grain wood, which is why I suspect walnut. Aside from the difference in wood type, they basically look to be the same racquet.

There was a Chris Evert Pro Staff too which had the more defined, rounded PS flake but it too (the flake) is much longer than the much more common Kramer PS models, so I initially think it may be stiffer through the shaft.

Being the hairy, manly man that I am it might be a bit emasculating to play with a 'women's' racquet, but I think I may grab a couple of these Everts to try out and compare. Much easier to find than the Stan Smith racquets.

I suppose "rattle-can black" might look cool...

 

[Moldyoak]

Ashe stated that he liked the Trabert/Budge Wilson because it played "stiff." He also ran through new frames real quick...

Those have become quite difficult to find not worn all to cr*p. Probably because they are typically older than the mid/late 70s models.

 

[Grafil Injection]

Also very interesting, if you look at the Chris Evert autos, they look like essentially the same racquet as the SS auto with the longer flake reinforcement, except the wood type is different. The Smith uses a tight grain white wood, either maple or beech (I suspect maple) while the Evert uses what looks like walnut, more open grained. I should add the long dark 'triangle' on the SS is just a dye or paint job, just like the diamonds on the hoop. But the Evert is actually a dark, more open grain wood, which is why I suspect walnut. Aside from the difference in wood type, they basically look to be the same racquet.

There was a Chris Evert Pro Staff too which had the more defined, rounded PS flake but it too (the flake) is much longer than the much more common Kramer PS models, so I initially think it may be stiffer through the shaft.

Being the hairy, manly man that I am it might be a bit emasculating to play with a 'women's' racquet, but I think I may grab a couple of these Everts to try out and compare. Much easier to find than the Stan Smith racquets.

I suppose "rattle-can black" might look cool...

Pretty sure there are some adverts that confirm the CEA has a walnut flake and shoulder reinforcement, stating it was preferred by Chrissie. Although, they also say the CEAs are lighter, but mine is 398g strung!