Wimbledon 2019 Final: Novak Djokovic [1] vs Roger Federer [2]

Wimbledon 2019 Champion

  • Djokovic in 3

    Votes: 33 11.6%
  • Djokovic in 4

    Votes: 86 30.3%
  • Djokovic in 5

    Votes: 40 14.1%
  • Federer in 3

    Votes: 16 5.6%
  • Federer in 4

    Votes: 72 25.4%
  • Federer in 5

    Votes: 37 13.0%

  • Total voters
    284

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
He used to play big points well against players like Roddick. So it's not universal. He obviously had a mental block against Nadal, because with his skill set, he should have been able to usually beat Nadal on grass and hardcourts, and at least be even on clay. He seems to have solved that, but now it looks like he may have one against Djokovic. But he didn't used to. It's hard to understand.
Yes he always came on top against Roddick, and he always won the tiebreaks against him. Roddick had a great tiebreak record, but against Federer at grand slams he lost them all.

Tiebreaks have always been Federer strength, but now the mental gab between gap between him and Djokovic is so big that Djokovic even owns him in tiebreaks!!
 

Beacon Hill

Hall of Fame
Federer solving the Nadal problem has a lot to do with Nadal's decline too, both mental and physical. Nadal was the best big point player till 2013-14. But now he's nowhere near that. He makes routine UE on big points even against lesser players. He usually wins those matches because he just creates more chances. Nadal had mutiple chances to come back both in set 3 and 4 the other day and he would not have missed those chances when he was in his prime. In terms of physical decline, his lateral movement has significantly declined and he's often caught out of position when stretched wide. Federer has just exploited those weaknesses. People talk a lot about Federer's improved BH being a factor, and that's true to an extent but that's not the only factor. Against Djokovic Federer doesn't have those luxuries.
Good points. If your physical abilities diminish, of course it will affect your mental game. Also, slowing the courts down has to weigh on Federer because it's hard to take a risk on an offensive shot if it likely will not lead to a winner, or even a clear advantage in a rally, especially against a great defensive player. Federer also has about 50 ways to win a point, so there are a lot of decisions to make at clutch time, and that could play tricks with the mind. Djokovic knows exactly what he's going to do, so the focus is probably better. Maybe at 40-15 Federer should have told himself I've got 4 serves to go for aces, and I know I'll get one of them. Federer also is really good at setting himself up to win, but not always good at the final point. He rarely serves out a tight match at love. Perhaps it's because earlier in his career, once he showed his dominance, his opponents would wilt because they knew they had no chance, and Federer could coast over the line. So Federer didn't have much practice in truly finishing the job himself.
 

Beacon Hill

Hall of Fame
Yes he always came on top against Roddick, and he always won the tiebreaks against him. Roddick had a great tiebreak record, but against Federer at grand slams he lost them all.

Tiebreaks have always been Federer strength, but now the mental gab between gap between him and Djokovic is so big that Djokovic even owns him in tiebreaks!!
Federer shocked us all by solving the Nadal mental block at age 35, so maybe he'll shock us more by solving the Djokovic mental block at age 45. But then by then he might have one against Shintaro Mochizuki.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Federer solving the Nadal problem has a lot to do with Nadal's decline too, both mental and physical. Nadal was the best big point player till 2013-14. But now he's nowhere near that. He makes routine UE on big points even against lesser players. He usually wins those matches because he just creates more chances. Nadal had mutiple chances to come back both in set 3 and 4 the other day and he would not have missed those chances when he was in his prime. In terms of physical decline, his lateral movement has significantly declined and he's often caught out of position when stretched wide. Federer has just exploited those weaknesses. People talk a lot about Federer's improved BH being a factor, and that's true to an extent but that's not the only factor. Against Djokovic Federer doesn't have those luxuries.
Given Fed's own tremendous decline (both mental and physical) that's still an impressive feat regardless.

Nadal is still doing better aginst the field than Fed does, that was true in both 2017 and this year.

Oh and make no mistake, bigger stick and Fed's BH being much more solid now are big factors, Nadal's loss in physicality notwithstanding.
 

Beacon Hill

Hall of Fame
Given Fed's own tremendous decline (both mental and physical) that's still an impressive feat regardless.

Nadal is still doing better aginst the field than Fed does, that was true in both 2017 and this year.

Oh and make no mistake, bigger stick and Fed's BH being much more solid now are big factors, Nadal's loss in physicality notwithstanding.
How do you think Federer has declined mentally?
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
How do you think Federer has declined mentally?
Clutch play with serve and FH (to an even bigger degree) and playing when he has a lead (used to be one of the best frontrunners on tour).

Fed is arguably the best tiebreak player of all time yet in this year he lost 2 to Tsitsipas and all 3 to Novak in slam matches.

Fed had the mental block the size of a Grand Canyon against Nadal in 2008 but in the Wimbledon final he still played two awesome tiebreaks to come back (saving a CP in one with a running BH winner).
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
Given Fed's own tremendous decline (both mental and physical) that's still an impressive feat regardless.

Nadal is still doing better aginst the field than Fed does, that was true in both 2017 and this year.

Oh and make no mistake, bigger stick and Fed's BH being much more solid now are big factors, Nadal's loss in physicality notwithstanding.
i kind of thought 2017 was split in terms of who was doing better than the field though I guess you right in the sense that nadal had the no.1 ranking but i thought in terms of the first half of the year, fed won AO did the sunshine double, won halle and wimbledon. I'd say after that it was definitely nadal and then ofc clay season was all him
 

Fugazi

Professional
maybe that memory came back into Roger's subconciousness and that was the reason why roger choked at wimby. As tennis player, something like that can comeback and haunt you when you are playing the same opponent. You become hesistant when that situation comes up again. and roger sure seem hesistant when he had 2 match points again at wimby
I'm quite sure it played a role, consciously or not.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
Clutch play with serve and FH (to an even bigger degree) and playing when he has a lead (used to be one of the best frontrunners on tour).

Fed is arguably the best tiebreak player of all time yet in this year he lost 2 to Tsitsipas and all 3 to Novak in slam matches.

Fed had the mental block the size of a Grand Canyon against Nadal in 2008 but in the Wimbledon final he still played two awesome tiebreaks to come back (saving a CP in one with a running BH winner).
i always think that if it were any other slam but wimbledon he would not have clawed his way back. probably aided by the rain breaks and I think rafa was definitely nervous on the verge o fyet again his first wimbledon final following the tight match they had last year. I think it was Severin who said they werent sure roger should even play wimbledon 2016 but because of how much he loved it, he did.
 

zep

Hall of Fame
Given Fed's own tremendous decline (both mental and physical) that's still an impressive feat regardless.

Nadal is still doing better aginst the field than Fed does, that was true in both 2017 and this year.

Oh and make no mistake, bigger stick and Fed's BH being much more solid now are big factors, Nadal's loss in physicality notwithstanding.
I didn't say it wasn't impressive, what Federer is doing at nearly 38 is highly impressive. I just pointed out that Fed's recent success against Nadal is not all on his improved backhand, bigger racquet or whatever. A huge reason is also Nadal's decline, perhaps the main reason. Nadal's main weapon against Federer was his speed and his defensive skills, not the FH to BH exchange. That's too simplistic. People act like their earlier matches were one sided. That's far from the truth. Take AO12 for example. It was quite similar to the last match. In fact Federer won the first set in a TB and he was a break up both in the second and third. But Nadal always had that extra gear to keep pushing Federer relentlessly and eventually find a way through. Remember those insane passing shots to break Federer in the second set? He can only dream of hitting shots like that now. To compensate for his decline in movement, Nadal has incorporated new things to his game. He serves bigger and goes for winners earlier than he used to. With those changes he has actually become more efficient against the field than he was in his physical prime but when it comes to Federer/Djokovic those changes don't really bother them. They stand closer to the baseline or inside the court, take the ball early and redirect it to expose Nadal's movement. Nadal's lateral movement has declined so much that Federer at 38 is faster than him now outside clay, especially when it comes to changing direction. On clay Nadal's movement has always been something else and he still runs/slides as well as anyone. Plus he gets more out of his shots on clay. IMO all three have declined but they have found ways to stay ahead of the field but when it comes to Nadal his decline in speed has hit him hard in his individual rivalries with Djokovic/Federer.
 
Last edited:

zagor

Bionic Poster
i always think that if it were any other slam but wimbledon he would not have clawed his way back. probably aided by the rain breaks and I think rafa was definitely nervous on the verge o fyet again his first wimbledon final following the tight match they had last year. I think it was Severin who said they werent sure roger should even play wimbledon 2016 but because of how much he loved it, he did.
Sure, Rafa was a bit nervy but Fed still played two high quality tiebreaks. Point is, it was near impossible to get him to play a bad tiebreak at Wimbledon, no matter how big of a mental edge the opponent got. Playing 3 bad tiebreaks in one match at Wimbledon? That's not just about Novak's excellence and being Fed's head, that's down to Fed not being Fed anymore.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
I didn't say it wasn't impressive, what Federer is doing at nearly 38 is highly impressive. I just pointed out that Fed's recent success against Nadal is not all on his improved backhand, bigger racquet or whatever. A huge reason is also Nadal's decline, perhaps the main reason. Nadal's main weapon against Federer was his speed and his defensive skills, not the FH to BH exchange. That's too simplistic. People act like their earlier matches were one sided.
Of course there are multiple factors at work as to why the match-up changed but you're underselling how much of an impact FH to BH pattern had on their matches. It was Nadal's go to play on every big point basically. Yeah, he's not as fast he used to be and can't nail those amazing passing shots but he can still punish a short ball with his FH as good as anyone in the game (arguably even better), Fed not coughing up a short ball from the BH side under Nadal's assault is one of the key factors of his recent success against Nadal. Same goes for the ROS, Nadal improved his serve yet Fed is better at returning it now than evern before.

Nadal's speed and defensive skills/passing shots rattled Fed big time but it's not the only reason he has had so much success against him. On many key points in their matches he was the aggressor because Fed's BH couldn't take the barrage and buckled under Nadal's heavy lefty FH.

Take AO12 for example.
Bad example to use, that's peak Nadal on HC taking on Fed at the tail end of his prime. They were far from an equal footing in that match which is why it paled in comparison to 2009 in terms of athleticism and shotmaking.

To compensate for his decline in movement, Nadal has incorporated new things to his game. He serves bigger and goes for winners earlier than he used to. With those changes he has actually become more efficient against the field than he was in his physical prime but when it comes to Federer/Djokovic those changes don't really bother them. They stand closer to the baseline or inside the court, take the ball early and redirect it to expose Nadal's movement. Nadal's lateral movement has declined so much that Federer at 38 is faster than him now outside clay, especially when it comes to changing direction.
Agree that Nadal's more aggresive, faster pace of play suits both Fed and Novak against him. He used to drag out their matches, torment them and strive to make it an ultimate physical contest. That physicality is no longer there. Even in 2017 when Nadal was arguably in better form than this year, Dimitrov nearly beat him in such a contest.

Disagree that Fed's faster than Nadal off clay, that's just hyperbole. He still has better footwork and Nadal isn't as faster as he used to be which bridges the overall gap in movement.

IMO all three have declined but they have found ways to stay ahead of the field but when it comes to Nadal his decline in speed has hit him hard in his individual rivalries with Djokovic/Federer.
No disagreement there. Except it's much, much more impressive that Fed is exploiting it at this stage of his career than Novak who is Nadal's peer.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
To me, the most impressive "mental toughness" moment from Djoko in this match was when he served at 11/11 in 5th set. The way he played to save the BPs. There was a line judge error and replay the point (instead of point for Djoko) on BP. Djoko argued a bit and the crowd started booing savagely. Still, he remained so clutch and cold headed. If he had lost it emotionally even slightly at that instant, it would have been the match. Later, Djoko stopped the point because he thought the ball was out but it was in, so another point lost and another chance for Fed. Again, Djoko stayed so incredibly composed. I will never know how on earth he managed to hold that game. I mention it because nobody really talked about it but it was quite homeric. One of the top defining moments of the match imo. Hard to believe that Fed would have failed to serve for it twice!!!!!!!
I would like to add that I agree with other people that the line judging was lousy all tournament (there was another crucial error on match point, AGAIN against Djoko. Thank god, he won the match anyway. He had to win it against his opponent + the line judges, lol)
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
To me, the most impressive "mental toughness" moment from Djoko in this match was when he served at 11/11 in 5th set. The way he played to save the BPs. There was a line judge error and replay the point (instead of point for Djoko) on BP. Djoko argued a bit and the crowd started booing savagely. Still, he remained so clutch and cold headed. If he had lost it emotionally even slightly at that instant, it would have been the match. Later, Djoko stopped the point because he thought the ball was out but it was in, so another point lost and another chance for Fed. Again, Djoko stayed so incredibly composed. I will never know how on earth he managed to hold that game. I mention it because nobody really talked about it but it was quite homeric. One of the top defining moments of the match imo. Hard to believe that Fed would have failed to serve for it twice!!!!!!!
I would like to add that I agree with other people that the line judging was lousy all tournament (there was another crucial error on match point, AGAIN against Djoko. Thank god, he won the match anyway. He had to win it against his opponent + the line judges, lol)
He had a lot of courage going to the net on both break points in that 11-11 game. He didn't come in often in that match at all, while Federer passed him for the break earlier in the decider at 7-7.
 

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
Federer should've summoned Stanimal 2.0 to handle Robo-Djok. The best way to beat Djokovic on these slow as molasses courts is to bludgeon him, Stanimal-style!
 

Bhagi Katbamna

Hall of Fame
I could watch only the highlights. In the points that I saw, I thought Federer should have sliced short more. The cross court to cross court topsin backhand exchanges seemed to favor Joker a lot. Esp. slicing his backhand to Joker's forehand(Fed should have done a lot more).
 

GabeT

Legend
This got to be the most talked about match of all time.

+100 pages, it's incredible ...
Haven’t checked. How much did other big matches reach? Any idea?

Edit: just checked. This thread is now #2 of all time. #1 is the 2018 W SF. #3 is the 2012 AOF
 

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
I could watch only the highlights. In the points that I saw, I thought Federer should have sliced short more. The cross court to cross court topsin backhand exchanges seemed to favor Joker a lot. Esp. slicing his backhand to Joker's forehand(Fed should have done a lot more).
You turned Jackie Chan into a kung fu expert in Drunken Master! You could do the same with the Fed-Ex. You should offer your coaching services.
 

TennisFan3

G.O.A.T.
Nadal's speed and defensive skills/passing shots rattled Fed big time but it's not the only reason he has had so much success against him. On many key points in their matches he was the aggressor because Fed's BH couldn't take the barrage and buckled under Nadal's heavy lefty FH.
I think you nailed it right there. That is the SINGLE BIGGEST reason why the Nadal-Fed matchup has turned on it's head.
Fed could never be aggressive on a ball high to his backhand pre 2017. That was one weakness in his game. And Nadal could exploit it more than anyone on tour.

Again their matchup has evolved, and it's NOT like Nadal always hits 100% to Fed's backhand.
Still whenever Nadal used to hit HIGH to Fed's backhand, he could: Get into offensive on a neutral rally OR get back to neutral terms when he was behind in a rally. Meaning Nadal always had an OUT when the pressure was high.
Not anymore. Fed can attack with his CC backhand and stretch Rafa out wide on the Spaniard's forehand (where Rafa is weak).

Also the reason Fed's backhand has hurt Nadal the most (vs the tour) is because Fed's backhand previously was still good on lower and flatter balls that the rest of the ATP hits. (Sure he's gotten better at that too. But the improvement is marginal.)
The biggest difference is how Fed can step inside the court and take up Nadal's spinning ball on the rise and hit through it with his backhand. He's waaay more aggressive there and doesn't run around his forehand as much.

Also with age, Nadal is much slower especially laterally, so that hurts Rafa. He is also MUCH WEAKER with defense on the forehand side when pushed wide and his ROS is just garbage these days. (I'm always struck by how poorly he returns Fed's serve now, unlike the past). Those factors also contribute to Nadal losing to Fed. But the main reason still is the CC FH to CC backhand exchange.
I honestly feel that unless Nadal improves some things significantly he won't beat Fed (in a big slam match) outside of clay. He can hope for Fed to get old, but given how good the Swiss is at 38 - that's like hoping against hope.
 
maybe that memory came back into Roger's subconciousness and that was the reason why roger choked at wimby. As tennis player, something like that can comeback and haunt you when you are playing the same opponent. You become hesistant when that situation comes up again. and roger sure seem hesistant when he had 2 match points again at wimby
The one thing I noticed is that none of the media used the word "choke" to describe what happened to Federer. But you can bet that if the roles were reversed and Djokovic squandered two championship points, he would have been hammered by the press for choking.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
The one thing I noticed is that none of the media used the word "choke" to describe what happened to Federer. But you can bet that if the roles were reversed and Djokovic squandered two championship points, he would have been hammered by the press for choking.
That is cause Roger is the true GOAT
 

GabeT

Legend
The one thing I noticed is that none of the media used the word "choke" to describe what happened to Federer. But you can bet that if the roles were reversed and Djokovic squandered two championship points, he would have been hammered by the press for choking.
I’ve seen several mentions of Fed choking. I should note I don’t agree it was a choke but am simply pointing out that at least part of the press thinks so.

https://au.sports.yahoo.com/wimbledon-2019-roger-federer-choke-stuns-tennis-world-214501024.html


https://www.foxsportsasia.com/tennis/wimbledon/1141233/wimbledon-2019-eugenie-bouchard-hilariously-trolls-roger-federer-over-final-match-point-choke/
 
Last edited:

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
The one thing I noticed is that none of the media used the word "choke" to describe what happened to Federer. But you can bet that if the roles were reversed and Djokovic squandered two championship points, he would have been hammered by the press for choking.
Probably--but I would not say Federer choked, either. He was just outplayed/outthought in every way it counted. There was nothing he could do against Djokovic.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Be strong man :confused:
Time will heal wounds... Hope to see you as soon as possible...
Toughest loss ever for me easily, a month after and I still haven't watched the highlights/speeches/reactions etc. I honestly don't know how anyone could recover from this.
 

beard

Hall of Fame
Toughest loss ever for me easily, a month after and I still haven't watched the highlights/speeches/reactions etc. I honestly don't know how anyone could recover from this.
Why should you watch it? I have on tape possibly all Novak's wins against Fedal, and not single one lose, although there are so many great matches. Just cant watch that, it bother me... specially agains Fed.
On the other hand I have about 20 other great matches not involving Novak, mostly Fedal, Federer - Delpo uso...
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Toughest loss ever for me easily, a month after and I still haven't watched the highlights/speeches/reactions etc. I honestly don't know how anyone could recover from this.
I thought every slam which Nadal doesn't win is a successful slam for you. :unsure:

To be honest, trolls like you make me happy that Federer lost the way he did. On the other hand I feel bad for good Federer fans.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Why should you watch it? I have on tape possibly all Novak's wins against Fedal, and not single one lose, although there are so many great matches. Just cant watch that, it bother me... specially agains Fed.
On the other hand I have about 20 other great matches not involving Novak, mostly Fedal, Federer - Delpo uso...
Because it was a great match and I watched almost all of it live, the only crucial part I missed on purpose was the final set tie-break. Federer just does not win tie-breaks like these after what happened before in the match.

The only tennis I watched after the Wimbedon final was some of the Kyrgios highlights.

There are so many times I can excuse Fed but he F-ed up so bad here.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
It’s both mental and physical.

If you put 2012/earlier... or 2003-2006 Fed for example in those tiebreaks... he can happily camp at the baseline, knifing deep slice BHs, waiting for a FH opening to pounce on and gain control of the rally on grass.

Problem with 2019 version, every big FH chance he got was pretty much a sprayed UFE. Declined footwork, declined striking from FH (especially on the run and inside out), weaker slice.

2012 Fed would’ve ended 2014/2019 finals in 4 sets. 2015 would be a war though.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
I honestly don't know how anyone could recover from this.
So you believe Roger will never recover from this and just have a spluttering end to his career? For instance, losing in fourth rounds and never winning anything beyond a 250 again? Or do you mean he just won't be a factor in slams anymore?

I guess we'll see soon enough how that loss affected him mentally.
 

JadeC

Hall of Fame
Toughest loss ever for me easily, a month after and I still haven't watched the highlights/speeches/reactions etc. I honestly don't know how anyone could recover from this.
Sorry, man. Probably doesn't mean much from a Novak fan, but if the situation were switched, I would feel the same way you do. By Cincy, when Fed is back playing, you'll have an easier time moving on. It was like that for me after RG or any big Djokovic loss, just wait for the next tournament.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
So you believe Roger will never recover from this and just have a spluttering end to his career? For instance, losing in fourth rounds and never winning anything beyond a 250 again? Or do you mean he just won't be a factor in slams anymore?

I guess we'll see soon enough how that loss affected him mentally.
I think it could affect him in the big matches going forward. He has surprised me before so who knows
 

Enceladus

Legend
Stanimal 2.0 could've done it in 4 sets.
Not at the grass. The grass is an overview of Stan's worst surface, Wimbledon is the only GS tournament where Stan has not reached at least SF participation and is unlikely, that this fact to change in the future.
The grass could be described as the only current surface where Djoker was safe from Stanimal.
 
It was fun reading through the thread after the final. Several posters mentioned 12-12 as the match went on.

I myself expressed my wish for it to happen in the Fedal semifinal for obvious reasons but this was even better. :laughing:
Yeah it's fun to read in hindsight but match was very heavy for me to watch while it happened. I almost wanted to vomit when Novak got broken for the 2nd time in the 5th set, just to laugh hysterically after he saved those CPs and broke back. Then that game at 11-11, from 40-0 up to BP for Federer and how Novak saved it by rushing the net... Insane match. I can't imagine how it felt to actually play it.
 
Top