Women's Best of the Present and All Time Greats - who is who?

[Tennis Espresso Journal]

Here it follows a list of the best Top5 WTA players at the moment and another list of the Top10 in Women's history:

BEST PLAYERS OF THE PRESENT (52-weeks):
1. Ash Barty
2. Gab Muguruza
3. Naomi Osaka
4. Ary Sabalenka
5. Paula Badosa

GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME (last 140 years):
1. Steffi G.
2. Helen W.M.
3. Margaret C.
4. Serena W.
5. Martina N.
6. Chris E.
7. Suzanne L.
8. BJK
9. Lottie D.
10. Maureene C.

 

[Deleted member 786687]

#1 is correct. Graf is Steffinitely the female GOAT.

 

[BeatlesFan]

#1 is correct. Graf is Steffinitely the female GOAT.

Steffi GOATing!

 

[MichaelNadal]

Lol here we go

 

[merwy]

Serena has to be up there for the greatest of all time

 

[Deleted member 758560]

 

[Adam Copeland]

Here it follows a list of the best Top5 WTA players at the moment and another list of the Top10 in Women's history:

BEST PLAYERS OF THE PRESENT (52-weeks):
1. Ash Barty
2. Gab Muguruza
3. Naomi Osaka
4. Ary Sabalenka
5. Paula Badosa

GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME (last 140 years):
1. Steffi G.
2. Helen W.M.
3. Margaret C.
4. Serena W.
5. Martina N.
6. Chris E.
7. Suzanne L.
8. BJK
9. Lottie D.
10. Maureene C.

01. Serena
02. Navratilova
03. Court
04. Evert
05. Graf
06. Seles

Then Others ...

 

[Kralingen]

Including Lenglen, Mills, Dod is pretty hilarious. So hard to compare to players who are a century old.

I gotta say though. Court has no argument over Serena or Navratilova.

 

[Azure]

Navratilova (for me). She is just a legend.

 

[Jonesy]

King Richard told me Serena is the greatest.

 

[Adam Copeland]

King Richard told me Serena is the greatest.

I think Navratilova is the greatest of the 20th century and Serena is the greatest of the 21st century (till now)

Overall it is tough to pick between the 2

 

[NAS]

1960 Australian Championships
Draw Size: 32 players
Non-Australian Entrants: 2
Non-Australian Seeds: 2 (out of 8)
Matches won for title: 5

1961 Australian Championships
Draw Size: 44
Non-Australian Entrants: 1
Non-Australian Seeds: 0 (out of 8)
Matches won for title: 5

1962 Australian Championships
Draw Size: 48
Non-Australian Entrants: 3
Non-Australian Seeds: 2 (out of 16)
Matches won for title: 5

1963 Australian Championships
Draw Size: 39
Non-Australian Entrants: 3
Non-Australian Seeds: 3 (out of 8)
Matches won for title: 5

1964 Australian Championships
Draw Size: 27
Non-Australian Entrants: 2
Non-Australian Seeds: 1 (out of 8)
Matches won for title: 4

1965 Australian Championships
Draw Size: 52
Non-Australian Entrants: 24
Non-Australian Seeds: 8 (out of 16)
Matches won for title: 5

1966 Australian Championships
Draw Size: 48
Non-Australian Entrants: 6
Non-Australian Seeds: 2 (out of 12)
Matches won for title: 4 (received walkover in final)

1969 Australian Open
Draw Size: 32
Non-Australian Entrants: 7
Non-Australian Seeds: 4 (out of 10)
Matches won for title: 5

1970 Australian Open
Draw Size: 43
Non-Australian Entrants: 4
Non-Australian Seeds: 2 (out of 8)
Matches won for title: 5

1971 Australian Open
Draw Size: 30
Non-Australian Entrants: 4
Non-Australian Seeds: 3 (out of 8)
Matches won for title: 4

1973 Australian Open
Draw Size: 48
Non-Australian Entrants: 16
Non-Australian Seeds: 3 (out of 12)
Matches won for title: 5
Source Williansohanian from tennisforum.
Op also said he might have mixed up for some NZ players from Australia in counting.
These draw are really weak to even claim Court over Serena, Martina or Evert.
Either Court is top over everybody or behind these four

 

[Tennis Espresso Journal]

Serena has to be up there for the greatest of all time

And she definitely is, very close on Top4. However for the same time spent as #1 she has 1 GS less than Court (24).

Graf has spent 8 years as #1, Helen Wills stayed 9 years, a significant advantage over Serena (~6) for a slight advantage on Slams (23-22-19).

Those big numbers (only actually comparable throughout the ages) do indicate others are still ahead - but not completely out of reach.

 

[Tennis Espresso Journal]

01. Serena
02. Navratilova
03. Court
04. Evert
05. Graf
06. Seles

Then Others ...

Possible,but even keeping aside Court and Wills (which is a sacrilege to their incredible careers) Steffi has more years as #1 than any of the above and only one Slam short of Serena.

 

[Tennis Espresso Journal]

Including Lenglen, Mills, Dod is pretty hilarious. So hard to compare to players who are a century old.

I gotta say though. Court has no argument over Serena or Navratilova.

Well, most sports are a century old... 2 centuries back and we had NO SPORTS at all.

So yes, into an historical perspective (the very purpose of the Cao Dama Rankings) they are all comparable.

We cannot forget Napoleon's military prowess nor the Franch Grande Armée just because they are "centuries old". The Forzas Armadas de Nicaragua under Comandadnte Sanchez would destroy any napoleonic French Battaillon today. Does anybody claims for erasing Napoleonic Wars from our history books? Of course not.

 

[Tennis Espresso Journal]

Steffi GOATing!

She is great indeed, the very definition of the word perhaps!

 

[urban]

Suzanne was greater, at least had the greater nose.

 

[Purestriker]

Here it follows a list of the best Top5 WTA players at the moment and another list of the Top10 in Women's history:

BEST PLAYERS OF THE PRESENT (52-weeks):
1. Ash Barty
2. Gab Muguruza
3. Naomi Osaka
4. Ary Sabalenka
5. Paula Badosa

GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME (last 140 years):
1. Steffi G.
2. Helen W.M.
3. Margaret C.
4. Serena W.
5. Martina N.
6. Chris E.
7. Suzanne L.
8. BJK
9. Lottie D.
10. Maureene C.

LOL. You have had too many espresso's.

 

[Adam Copeland]

Possible,but even keeping aside Court and Wills (which is a sacrilege to their incredible careers) Steffi has more years as #1 than any of the above and only one Slam short of Serena.

Steffi has the numbers but numbers aren't everything, Steffi's Golden Slam was obtained a period when Martina and Evert were like 31-34 olds, also rise of young teenage prodigy Seles cause all sorts of problems for her for 3 years, then the unfortunate act of a lunatic fan indirectly helped her to win like half of her resume (11 out of 22) after that incident have all marred the chances of Steffi being in the top 4 in my book.

Steffi did not choose these things to happen, but then reality is what it is, GOAT cannot have all these struggles and lucky benefits.

She is at 5th in my book and her arch rival Seles is right below her at 6th, it is only fair.

 

[Adam Copeland]

^^^ That having said, I am not going to argue and waste my time with anyone who feels Graf should be placed any higher, also I urge nobody to argue with me on this because I won't change my mind. It is a pointless exercise really.

 

[safinmafia]

Steffi is GOAT. We know parameter for goat after this year is golden slam. Steffi has it. Nuff said.

 

[intrepidish]

Margaret Court and Helen Wills Moody don't belong anywhere near a discussion of the best female players of all time. The prehistory of tennis is interesting to examine but is virtually unrecognizable as a sport as compared to its modern counterpart and I find it bizarre to discuss it in this context. It's hard to even compare the 70s and 80s to the last 20 years given all the changes and the professionalization of the sport much less the 60s and earlier with slams with tiny draws, limited travel and far more limited athleticism and physical conditioning in general.

For me, at her best it's S. Williams when she was relatively lean, moving well and serving big. I don't see her losing consistently to anyone in that state though of course there were some great ones prior to that.

Chrissie, Steffi and the Martinas were historically important in moving the game forward and 3 of them in particular have incredible overall achievements but even so, I think our most recent great champion is the one who takes it for now.

 

[Darksong]

I love Steffi Graf, my favourite player of all time.. However, had Monica Seles not been stabbed her Grand Slam tally and weeks at number one would be nothing like where she finished her career with.

I never liked Serena when she burst on the scene, she never acknowledged her opponent when she lost and she didn’t charm me, however as time passed I grew to appreciate her tennis and for me I’d say she’s the GOAT.

Anyone with Margaret Court in the top 5 is crazy, her Australian Open wins are not the measure of a grand slam champ, those draws are ridiculous!!!. Martina and Chris are way ahead. And it’s worth noting, when Graf overtook Martina and Chris, nobody was talking about Court at all.. The media hyped her when Serena got close to and finally passed Graf.

 

[thelimfactor]

Here it follows a list of the best Top5 WTA players at the moment and another list of the Top10 in Women's history:

BEST PLAYERS OF THE PRESENT (52-weeks):
1. Ash Barty
2. Gab Muguruza
3. Naomi Osaka
4. Ary Sabalenka
5. Paula Badosa

GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME (last 140 years):
1. Steffi G.
2. Helen W.M.
3. Margaret C.
4. Serena W.
5. Martina N.
6. Chris E.
7. Suzanne L.
8. BJK
9. Lottie D.
10. Maureene C.

Would Halep sneak into current best players? If they were playing 4 u, would u consider Halep over Badosa?

 

[Russeljones]

Can't split Serena, Martina and Graf. Evert 2nd, Seles 3rd. My ranking.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Smith-Court and Navratilova are the greatest female Grass Courters of all.
Evert is the greatest female Clay Courter of all ...and possibly the greatest Clay Courter of all! (Yes, in relative terms, better than Borg, better than Nadal!)
Hard Court tennis is bollocks and doesn't matter but Serena probably leads that one.

Steffi Graf is probably the greatest female All Court player of all ... although Seles's short career probably helped Graf a little!

Ask yourself this question though ... if you had to take one of these players - at their peak - into a battle for the planet, which one would it be?

For me, probably either Chrissie or Martina!

 

[Mainad]

Suzanne was greater, at least had the greater nose.

Better movement.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

Steffi Graf is above Serena for sure but Margaret Court is not top 5. Half her slams were at a then tiny tournament with nobody but Aussies and she played just 4 matches to win. She is nothing compared to ATG’s.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Gratuitous comments:

I like Dave, but he was using any excuse to touch her.
She did look great there, but...
Missing the champagne glasses moved her down - behind Lottie Dod - on my GOAT list.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

Smith-Court and Navratilova are the greatest female Grass Courters of all.
Evert is the greatest female Clay Courter of all ...and possibly the greatest Clay Courter of all! (Yes, in relative terms, better than Borg, better than Nadal!)
Hard Court tennis is bollocks and doesn't matter but Serena probably leads that one.

Steffi Graf is probably the greatest female All Court player of all ... although Seles's short career probably helped Graf a little!

Ask yourself this question though ... if you had to take one of these players - at their peak - into a battle for the planet, which one would it be?

For me, probably either Chrissie or Martina!

How can you say Court is joint best grass court player in history? Venus for example has more claim than Court. And of course then there’s Serena, Graf, Navratilova who have done far more on grass.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Tennis has one history, not whatever someone wants to selectively pick, and the zenith of all achievement--the Grand Slam--applies to the entire sport. So, players such as Court and Graf are the GOAT, while the others are sorted out on a "best of the rest" list, but its clear Serena would rank #1 on that list.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Navratilova (for me). She is just a legend.

She is. It's so hard for me to decide (OE) among Martina, Serena, Steffi...and Evert gets forgotten about. Of course, if we factor in doubles (not that we ever really do), it would have to be Navratilova. As is, I think she still has a case, and any of the four work for me.

 

[skaj]

Here it follows a list of the best Top5 WTA players at the moment and another list of the Top10 in Women's history:

BEST PLAYERS OF THE PRESENT (52-weeks):
1. Ash Barty
2. Gab Muguruza
3. Naomi Osaka
4. Ary Sabalenka
5. Paula Badosa

GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME (last 140 years):
1. Steffi G.
2. Helen W.M.
3. Margaret C.
4. Serena W.
5. Martina N.
6. Chris E.
7. Suzanne L.
8. BJK
9. Lottie D.
10. Maureene C.

What's the second list based on?

 

[skaj]

#1 is correct. Graf is Steffinitely the female GOAT.

That's Parcheally true.

 

[Deleted member 786687]

.
.

 

[Azure]

She is. It's so hard for me to decide (OE) among Martina, Serena, Steffi...and Evert gets forgotten about. Of course, if we factor in doubles (not that we ever really do), it would have to be Navratilova. As is, I think she still has a case, and any of the four work for me.

Yeah when we talk about the greatest (not necessarily best), one needs to ask as to what greatness means - is it merely winning the most? That by my definition would be the ‘most accomplished’. Is it besting your peers either on one surface or at one tournament or during a few years? That would make you ‘the best’. Is it beyond that, in terms of contribution to the sport, to bring forth an image of your country, to bring to light causes that matter, to fight for values, while being a great sportsperson? Thats hands down Nav for me.

 

[Tennisfan339]

I wasn't there to watch Court, Navrattilova and Graf's feats but it kinda intrigues me how people use different criteria in ATP and WTA.

In ATP it always seems like the slam race is the ultimate, most determining factor. Whoever gets his 21st Grand Slam will be the best of all time, period. The other stats dont matter much if you have the most slams.

In WTA (open era), 23>22>18 so if we use the same logic, Williams>Graf>Navratilova. Yet it's clear many put Graf's CYGS and Navratilova's streak ahead of Serena's slam record...

 

[RaulRamirez]

Yeah when we talk about the greatest (not necessarily best), one needs to ask as to what greatness means - is it merely winning the most? That by my definition would be the ‘most accomplished’. Is it besting your peers either on one surface or at one tournament or during a few years? That would make you ‘the best’. Is it beyond that, in terms of contribution to the sport, to bring forth an image of your country, to bring to light causes that matter, to fight for values, while being a great sportsperson? Thats hands down Nav for me.

I see your point. but tend to see greatest as most accomplished.
It's hard for me to blend the two, but among great women's players, perhaps BJK (great, but not on the first tier record-wise) and Martina made the most contributions off the court.
Among men, Arthur Ashe (also quite good, but not GOAT-level) made great contributions off the court.

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

I don't believe "the greatest" is one person. Just like in the men's game, it's a group of people who can all stake a claim. My GOATesses are as follows:


Chronologically...

Suzanne Lenglen; unprecedented dominance, with a 287-1 win-loss record over nine years from the end of WWI until she turned pro. Won nine tournaments in her career without the loss of a single game.
Helen Wills Moody; rivals Lenglen for dominance; 180-match win streak over seven years without losing a set. Won 19 of the 24 slams she played in.
Margaret Court; queen of the numbers. 24 singles slams, 64 in total, a CYGS in singles and two in mixed, multiple major slam records (six singles in a row, nine in a single year, etc etc). Also has the highest win-loss percentage in the Open Era, for those who think she was just an amateur champ.
Billie Jean King; overshadowed numerically by rival Court, but still has 39 slams to her name, equal third all-time. Also made immense contributions off-court to ensure women's tennis thrived.
Chris Evert; a machine of consistency. 18 singles slams despite skipping multiple majors in the '70s. Would almost certainly have 22+ otherwise. Ridiculous record of reaching semis.
Martina Navratilova; "the greatest singles, doubles, and mixed player who ever lived" (BJK). Insane domination across all disciplines, and owns multiple Open Era records e.g. longest win streak, best seasons, etc etc.
Steffi Graf; unique Golden Slam, and likely the best singles resumé of all since she took much less time to accumulate her titles than her rivals.
Serena Williams; Has the Open Era record of 23 singles slams, and is equal third on the all-time list with 39 overall. Only two mixed titles short of a boxed set. Also has amazing longevity; 21 years between first and last slam finals so far.


Honorable mentions to three "what ifs"...

Alice Marble; in her last two years she was 111-0 in singles and won four successive Triple Crowns, but WW2 and turning pro ended any chance she might have had to emulate Lenglen and Wills Moody's numbers. Also has the most batshit insane autobiography of any champion.
Mo Connolly; forced to retire aged only nineteen after breaking her leg while horseriding, by which time she'd won 9 slams in succession, including the first CYGS by a woman in 1953.
Monica Seles; who had 8 slams at nineteen and could have exceeded Connolly's teen records but for one deranged Graf fan.

 

[Adam Copeland]

Steffi Graf is above Serena for sure but Margaret Court is not top 5. Half her slams were at a then tiny tournament with nobody but Aussies and she played just 4 matches to win. She is nothing compared to ATG’s.

23 slams is more than 22

Also half of those 22 were aided by Seles being removed for 3 good years.

So IMO you should not be "sure" about Graf being ahead of Serena who is a bonafide champ that won slams from 1999 till the end of the 2010s decade, her longevity in this era is unparalleled

 

[skaj]

If the red hot Dokovic wouldn't have gotten stabbed during the 2016 Wimbledon 3rd round match vs Querrey, he would've certainly went on to win the title. Would've went on to win in Flushing, beat Trump in November, and capped the year off w/ a YEC. '17 would have been a Calendar Slam, including a win over Istomin Down Under. Rinse repeat for 2018, save the Trump win.

Your fallacy is that you're assuming Seles was gonna win slam after slam, had the attack not occurred.

Your fallacy is that you're assuming Graf would've won as many slams as she did if it hadn't been for the stabbing. Oh wait, it doesn't matter, she still has less than the GOAT...

 

[skaj]

Gratuitous comments:

I like Dave, but he was using any excuse to touch her.
She did look great there, but...
Missing the champagne glasses moved her down - behind Lottie Dod - on my GOAT list.

Did that detestable person not do the same thing to every female guest on his show?

 

[Karma Tennis]

How can you say Court is joint best grass court player in history? Venus for example has more claim than Court. And of course then there’s Serena, Graf, Navratilova who have done far more on grass.

Grass court tennis is not just SINGLES. Smith-Court won a swathe of Grass court Doubles and Mixed Doubles Major Titles.

Smith-Court also played during an era when shen spent much of her time based far away from her home base. The others you mentioned could spend much of their time at home. That makes a huge difference to their ability to compete at their optimum consistently.

You can only play who you play. And she won a lot more often than everyone else.

 

[TimHenmanATG]

Margaret Court and Helen Wills Moody don't belong anywhere near a discussion of the best female players of all time.

Why not?

 

[Tennis Espresso Journal]

What's the second list based on?

Hi, sorry for the delay.

It is a Power Index, measuring how powerful those players were over the last 52 weeks.

It basically takes into account:
- Tier 1 titles, including Slams, WTA1000, Finals and Olympics all equally valued (it is a Power Index, not a GOAT one);
- W/L ratio, measuring the number of wins for each loss recorded;
- Rankings, here we have the only component not restraint to 52 weeks: it counts both, current rankings and best rankings.***

***Regarding the last component, its relevant to stress that it is Power Index, therefore it measures how good a player is as of now (regardless how great she is/was) but also how good she can be (former Top10 do have an incredible potential). This is specially relevant in women's side. Their ability to bounce back out of nowhere and win tournaments are a constant feature in the circuit, much more than on the men's side.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Steffi Graf is above Serena for sure but Margaret Court is not top 5. Half her slams were at a then tiny tournament with nobody but Aussies and she played just 4 matches to win. She is nothing compared to ATG’s.

Would be interested what your definition of an ATG is if you don’t even have Court as an ATG (let alone GOAT candidate which would where she belongs).
Anyways, even if you removed ALL her AOs from before the OE (which is insane) she would still have 17 slams, a CYGS, six in a row, most tournament wins, highest winning percentage in OE, an impressive doubles and mixed career and completely dominating all of her peers especially BJK. This alone would put her top 5.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Anyone with Margaret Court in the top 5 is crazy, her Australian Open wins are not the measure of a grand slam champ, those draws are ridiculous!!!.

The only thing which is crazy is to not have her in the top 5. Since you seem to be completely clueless on her career please refer to post #39.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I wasn't there to watch Court, Navrattilova and Graf's feats but it kinda intrigues me how people use different criteria in ATP and WTA.

In ATP it always seems like the slam race is the ultimate, most determining factor. Whoever gets his 21st Grand Slam will be the best of all time, period. The other stats dont matter much if you have the most slams.

In WTA (open era), 23>22>18 so if we use the same logic, Williams>Graf>Navratilova. Yet it's clear many put Graf's CYGS and Navratilova's streak ahead of Serena's slam record...

There isn’t really the same situation in ATP. If there was a player from the 90s with only 19 slams but including a CYGS along with most weeks at No.1, more tournament wins than Fed and more WTFs than Fed I would absolutely put him ahead of each of the big three. This is basically what we have with Steffi vs Serena.

 

[FedrMatt]

01. Serena

 

[jondice]

1. Serena
2. Steffi
3. Martina
4. Chrissie
5. Seles