Harry_Wild
G.O.A.T.
#1 all time women's GOAT for me is: Margaret Court!
If you took a poll of all players and fans and asked ‘would you prefer to win all 4 slam in 1 tennis season or 4 in a row over 2 tennis seasons’ I‘m pretty sure it would be a 100% result, not 50-50 as your idea would suggest.
Nobody takes those claims seriously, it’s just Graf haters and Seles fanboys nonsense. Graf won golden grand slam 5 years before Seles was stabbed. That on its own makes her a tier 1 goat. Seles never beat Graf at Wimbledon or USO. In fact if Seles lost that 1992 FO final to Graf Seles would have no claims at all to being a challenger for Graf. That match went to Seles 10-8 in the 3rd set. In the Wimbledon final a few later Graf creamed Seles 62 61, so if she also won FO final v Seles how could you make a claim for Seles? Like I said it’s only Graf haters who post this stuff Lol : )
I get it from where you are coming from but still my point stand.Who were the players banned from competing? If none was that Courts fault they didn’t bother competing? Should they get credit for not competing?
Attendance by the top pros backs your opinion.I get it from where you are coming from but still my point stand.
with only one odd foreign player in AO in early years, AO was more or less national championship than slam.
But just personal opinion nothing else.
Nobody takes what claims seriously? That Seles who had the edge over Graf was stabbed and then Graf suddenly started dominating the slams again?
Yes, won a goldens slam before Seles, which means there was no Seles to stop her, her main rival was still young.
If Seles lost 1992 RG? That is your if?? She did not lose it, she won all of their slam encounters apart from the Wimbledon one in her prime, and in that one she could not grunt therefore the score.
And you are calling other people haters...
Jesus Christ, I did not suggest that at all, quite the opposite and explained the reasons why.
I liked Graf and Seles equally, very annoyed when she got stabbed, and doubly annoyed when she didn't resume the tour immediately from a very minor 3cm wound. Seles wasn't capable of beating Graf at Wimbledon or USO, and if Graf won that '92 FO final then Graf would have had the better year in 1992, leaving Seles a couple of crumbs. That's just facts.
Ok, so the opposite of that is calendar slam is far superior to 4 in a row. Sorry I must have misread your post. We're on the same page with everyone else re importance of calendar slam. cheers
A calendar slam is not superior to any other 4 in a row
I do think however, that this whole ‘Graf’s achievements should have an asterisk due to the Seles stabbing’ is blown way out of proportion here. She was 1-3 in their last 4 slam matches but overall still 6-4 even before the stabbing, as good as Monica was that was still not a Federer-Nadal situation as many here claim.
Would Graf have won fewer slams with a healthy Monica around? Sure, but this holds true for every player if you throw another ATG in one of her best slam winning periods. Would that have reduced Graf to a 15 slam winner? Hell no.
Nobody takes what claims seriously? That Seles who had the edge over Graf was stabbed and then Graf suddenly started dominating the slams again?
Yes, won a goldens slam before Seles, which means there was no Seles to stop her, her main rival was still young.
If Seles lost 1992 RG? That is your if?? She did not lose it, she won all of their slam encounters apart from the Wimbledon one in her prime, and in that one she could not grunt therefore the score.
And you are calling other people haters...
1993 | Australian Open | F | Hard | Monica Seles | Steffi Graf | 4-6 6-3 6-2 |
1992 | Wimbledon | F | Grass | Steffi Graf | Monica Seles | 6-2 6-1 |
1992 | FO - RG | F | Clay | Monica Seles | Steffi Graf | 6-2 3-6 10-8 |
1990 | FO - RG | F | Clay | Monica Seles | Steffi Graf | 7-6(6) 6-4 |
Wouldn’t waste my time, some people here will not get it anyways. The CYGS is the ultimate achievement in tennis while Novak Slam or Serena Slam are recent inventions by the media. This fact alone puts way much pressure on any player with a serious shot at CYGS which makes it an accomplishment harder to achieve (as could perfectly be observed with Serena and Novak at their respective USO runs). People who think any four in a row would be equal to the CYGS probably also think it would be the same for a football club result-wise to win 34 consecutive matches in one season as spread over two seasons.
@skaj, imho you are flogging a dead horse mate!
THE GRAND SLAM (ie CYGS) is the pinnacle of the sport.
More players have won four Majors in a row than have achieved the GRAND SLAM. There are good reasons for that.
Most obvious, consider the season order of the Majors.
A-RG-W-USO
In modern times, it is the most difficult order ... HC to Clay to Grass to HC. (Very short break between RG and W. No End of Season break either)
All other combinations appear to be much easier to endure from both physical and mental perspective. THAT is the main reason why the GRAND SLAM is so tough to achieve these days.
CYGS definitely puts more pressure than an NCYGS, no doubt about it.
But I have always wondered whether the "pressure" that an athlete has now while attempting the CYGS is same as the one which Laver or Steffi or someone before Novak had ???
Maybe somebody who is senior and has seen the 60s/70s/80s live can elucidate me on this? ? @zagor @Fiero425 @Gary Duane
I feel Laver did not have any pressure for his CYGS compared to what Novak had in 2021, even Steff's golden slam might not have much pressure on her since she was young and new, look at Raducanu for example, in 2021 she won so quickly, that was back in1988
Even Boris Becker once was asked on his wimbledon at 1985 and he said that back in those days there was no social media, pressure was less, now the pressure on a teenager/a player is massive and thats why you dont find teens dominating the sport now as before.
Is that true ????
Maybe in the modern era Laver or Graf or others who did win all 4 slams would not win them if they were competing now, pressure now is unthinkable and far more .....
Remember : Monica was only 19.25 years old at the time of the stabbing incident and she was doing this to Graf, when she entered 20s as Nadal did in 06-07 then the situation would have become catastrophic for Graf.
Remember Hingis was done while still a teenager, nearly won calendar slam at 16. Seles wasn’t winning Jack v Graf at Wimbledon and USO and the last FO final they played was a fluke Seles win 10-8 in 3rd. You can fantasize about Seles winning everything but the records doesn’t back it up. If Seles was that good she would have resumed winning slams after the break. She was good, but not that good.
This is what should be acknowledged instead of pretending that Seles wasn't good enough. Dude if Seles wasn't good enough then why did Graf not win many slams between 90 and AO93 when she was in her early 20s and at her peak physically ???
if Seles was beating Graf in slam finals in those slam wins you’d have a point, and even I would agree with you. The truth is very different. Graf was losing to non-Seles players in those slams that Seles won. Also Seles didn’t have the physique to play top shelf tennis much beyond her teens. Her hips got very big very young, would have happened even if no stabbing.
1993 | Australian Open | F | Hard | Monica Seles | Steffi Graf | 4-6 6-3 6-2 |
1992 | Wimbledon | F | Grass | Steffi Graf | Monica Seles | 6-2 6-1 |
1992 | FO - RG | F | Clay | Monica Seles | Steffi Graf | 6-2 3-6 10-8 |
1990 | FO - RG | F | Clay | Monica Seles | Steffi Graf | 7-6(6) 6-4 |
What is this then ????
Wasn't she beating in slams in finals ??
Did she win 8 slams in that period of 3 years when Graf won only 2 by beating mugs ? LOL
like I said reverse that ‘92 FO final and Graf is the best player of 1992 winning Wim and FO both over Seles. What has Seles got left after that?
I like Seles, but the fact she couldn’t come back at age 21 proves she would have been done by that age due to genetics. Those were huge child bearing hips she had in her youth. Even I can get in superb shape if I tried, for a pro athlete to not do it means they aren’t at that elite level. Rest of this is just waffle, pure speculation. This is coming from a realistic Seles fan.
For me Graf will always be outside the top 3 of women's tennis in the open era behind Serena, Navratilova and Evert, this will never change even if Seles herself comes and tries to convince me otherwise, so lets not waste time arguing.
Fair enough. Some people can never be convinced, or more accurately can’t handle the truth. You mention 4 names Serena, Navratilova, Evert and Graf. At least acknowledge Graf won the ‘golden calendar grand slam’ before Seles got stabbed and we’ll leave it there ; )
Open Era ONLY applies to Men's tennis. As there was NO women's pro tour, ALL of the top women players competed in the slams and other official tournaments before 1968.Would be interested what your definition of an ATG is if you don’t even have Court as an ATG (let alone GOAT candidate which would where she belongs).
Anyways, even if you removed ALL her AOs from before the OE (which is insane) she would still have 17 slams, a CYGS, six in a row, most tournament wins, highest winning percentage in OE, an impressive doubles and mixed career and completely dominating all of her peers especially BJK. This alone would put her top 5.
Obviously I know that and habe stated it in many similar discussions. The Court haters however are always trying to discredit her AOs before the OE (which, as you rightfully stated did not exist on the women’s side) so I wanted to highlight that even if you remove all her AO before 68 she would still have a GOAT candidate resume.Open Era ONLY applies to Men's tennis. As there was NO women's pro tour, ALL of the top women players competed in the slams and other official tournaments before 1968.
Truth is that half of Graf's resume will have an asterisk next to it because of Mr Parche (a lunatic).
Those 11 slams were won in the absence on an ATG who would have troubled her and taken 60% of them from her.
Serena, Martina and Evert fought everyone in their path, they won, they lost, but they fought every freak at their peak and their 23, 18 and 18 are SOLID Numbers beyond any debate.
The real truth is no slams have an asterisk.
troubled her yes, as did other players. The claim Seles would have won 60% is an opinion and speculation. Nobody knows, not you or me. Imo if the stabbing never happened Graf would actually have 23 slams and Seles about 12. This is based on my analysis of the records, and I’m a fan of Graf and Seles. I often rooted for Seles and was angry when she got stabbed, and even more annoyed she stayed away so long from such a minor physical injury.
Recency bias there. Personally I rate Moody and Connolly higher than these 3.
All that matters is the record, coulda/woulda is fun to discuss but means nothing at the end of the day. Graf has the best goat claims in open era, Moody, Connolly and Court make up the top 4 imo. Navratilova is better than Evert who in turn is better than Serena, but these 3 are in the bottom section of top 10. Seles is not on the radar - 4 of her 9 slams are AO, and she never won Wimbledon. Placing her at No.5 all time is optimistic to say the least : )
Seles had 8 slams at 19.25...this is a big thing... her real peak was yet to come
She would have had a Borg type streak of AO+FO twin slams every year from 93 till 97 and would have taken at least 1 wimbledon and 1 USO too considering those surfaces were not her best, but her peak was stolen from her by a lunatic ....This is not Graf's fault, I agree, but then truth is she benefitted an extra 5-7 slams, even show knows this ..... you ask her privately, she too would not deny
A lot of players were done at their very peak and very young. Even in the men’s game Wilander won 3 slams in 1988 at age 24 and never threatened at a slam again. McEnroe and Borg were done at 25. Nobody thought Mac and Wilander were done right at their peak. Hingis and Connolly were still teenagers when they won last slams. Tracy Austin finished at 18. Seles was getting noticeably huge around the hips before she got stabbed, and looked to be unfit sucking for air in most matches. She had great flat strokes on both wings, but her lateral and up and down movement were below average. Explains why Hingis had zero problems playing her - yanked her all around the court giving no rhythm.
The simple truth is nobody knows what would have happened. Seles may have gone on to win 15 slams, or just 1 or 2 more. Impossible to know so we can’t just downgrade and upgrade players on speculation. When you look at the Seles v Graf match up before the stabbing there didn’t appear to be any obvious advantage to Seles overall. If Seles was smashing Graf too in those slam wins, eg the way Navratilova dominated Evert at her peak, then I’d be more with you - but even then it’s just speculation and changes nothing end of the day. I know it’s frustrating, like when Lennon was killed, but what can you do? I’m comforted by the fact the physical injury to Seles was very minor, similar to a paper cut. At least I know she could have come back if she were better able to handle the mental side of the injury. I think of players like Muster who was run over by a car, or Kvitova who was knifed by a robber in her home, and the way they came back pretty quickly to the tour. They could only do this because the physical injuries weren’t career ending, even though far more serious than Seles’ physical injury. I’d feel a lot worse for Seles if her career was physically curtailed. At least the mental side you can work on or shrug it off if you were made of sterner stuff. I’m not blaming Seles for staying away too long as everyone is different and has different strengths and weaknesses, but you get my point.
Anyway, we are going round and round, this is pointless.
No idea about Moody/Connolly, surely they are great players, I think Court's records are pretty formidable too, she won her 1st slam in 1960 and last in 1973, legendary, she looks like the equivalent of Laver in women's Tennis ??? @BorgTheGOAT rates Court very high, I checked her records, she seems too big to ignore...... 24 slams are too much in any era. ....
Exactly. The Astérix mentioning open era for womens tennis is irrelevantOpen Era ONLY applies to Men's tennis. As there was NO women's pro tour, ALL of the top women players competed in the slams and other official tournaments before 1968.
To me all the discussion depreciating Coruts Australia Wins is swept away by her 1970 season ( and possibly her 1973 season)Obviously I know that and habe stated it in many similar discussions. The Court haters however are always trying to discredit her AOs before the OE (which, as you rightfully stated did not exist on the women’s side) so I wanted to highlight that even if you remove all her AO before 68 she would still have a GOAT candidate resume.
Who has won the most in every major? Most wim? Most USO? Most FO? AO?
Yes, which is fun to me as sometimes you get a different angle and learn something. Not in this particular case as everything has been discussed to death over the decades, but you have to explore and listen to other opinions and see how much sense they make to you : )
It’s not just her slam record, which is eye watering, but things like winning 192 tournaments overall, best match winning % overall and in every slam I think. Check out her wiki page to get an overview - incredibly underrated player. She was so successful she’s considered a failure at Wimbledon for winning only 3 singles title. She always choked at Wimbledon as that was and is the most prestigious tournament and she was huge fave every year and knew she could win every yr, but weirdly never played her best stuff there.
There are so many great female players it’s hard to say one of them is the clear standout. If I had to pick one player as the goat I think I’d go with Graf. She had the best physical body for tennis and was a true athlete - think she could have qualified for the German Olympic track team at one stage? Her forehand was massive at the time and was a game changer for the women’s game. And importantly she had the stunning goat level record even before Seles stabbing. We shouldn’t underrate the only modern calendar slam in history on all 3 surfaces. Graf is still the only player in history to pull it off, and got gold medal cherry on top. She was 8 times yr-end no.1. Seles had a great little peak there when Graf was at her worst, but she was kinda like a better version of Vicario - physically they didn’t look athletic at all, just slightly chubby out of shape teenagers. Graf and Navratilova looked in superb physical shape, world class athletes and records to match. If I had to choose 1 player I like watching the most, and may have been the best ever at her short best, it’s Henin. We all have our biases and nothing wrong with that : )
Completely agree, her CYGS, six in a row and eight out of nine puts all these ridiculous discussions to bed. Whoever disagrees that she is a valid GOAT contender is only doing so because of hating her for her off-court behavior.To me all the discussion depreciating Coruts Australia Wins is swept away by her 1970 season ( and possibly her 1973 season)
Completely agree, her CYGS, six in a row and eight out of nine puts all these ridiculous discussions to bed. Whoever disagrees that she is a valid GOAT contender is only doing so because of hating her for her off-court behavior.
Court also won 6 in a row. Also in the OE if you want (even though there is no difference for open and pre-open era in the women’s side).OTTH, Martina's the only one in Open Era history to win 6 majors in a row! After Graf's CYGS in '88, she lost '89 FO final to Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario!![]()
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Court also won 6 in a row. Also in the OE if you want (even though there is no difference for open and pre-open era in the women’s side).
Why on earth would you take out the AO?Wimbledon Navratilova
USO Moody
FO Evert
AO Court
If we look at the 3 biggest slams, Wim/USO/FO, then the all time list is;
Moody 19
Graf 18
Evert 16
Serena 16
Navratilova 15
Court 13
BJK 11
other notables;
Venus 7
Henin 6
Seles 5
Vicario 3
Hingis 2
A bit surprising Hingis has only 2!
Why on earth would you take out the AO?The 1980s just called and they want you back there!
No point talking about AO 93 to Graf fanatics. It triggers them like hell. They can't get over it even though Graf in all likelihood has. That's the one time they saw Graf crumble under the crunch under sustained pressure from Seles. This was not a one sided drubbing nor a narrow loss (like RG). It was a hard fought match but one in which Seles prevailed by a good margin. Deep down, Graf fanatics KNOW that there was every possibility for the script to have played out very differently had Seles not been stabbed. But they will deny even the possibility with all their might and point to non slam matches like US Hardcourt championships or Hamburg just to obfuscate the argument. It's not just about how the H2H was shaping up as of then but the momentum. The momentum was with Seles. And she got stabbed. That's not Graf's fault but it did make her competition easier. I can even accept the argument that Graf can't be blamed for Seles taking until 95 to get back. But the problem is Graf didn't even profit so much anyway in 94 and only won one slam that year. But in 93, she had it tough with eternal bunny MJF in the RG final and then escaped through the skin of her teeth with Novotna. Only at the USO and that after struggling against Manuela Maleeva did she finally put up an authoritative display. So yes...that part of the Graf fan argument is true. That Graf was in a funk in 91 especially regardless of Seles. But that, again, is not Seles' fault.What is this then ????
Wasn't she beating in slams in finals ??
Did she win 8 slams in that period of 3 years when Graf won only 2 by beating mugs ? LOL
You can deduct 5 slams (AOs+FOs) of Graf from 93 onwards flat from 22, that makes it 17
After this logic suggests that she would take 1-2 W/USOs sometime or the other because she was almost 5 years younger, her hip getting wider was because of her eating habits which were because of depression due to the stabbing and her family issues, in an ideal world she would clean up most of the slams in 93-97 period as that was her potential peak that was taken away from her
1993 Australian Open F Hard Monica Seles Steffi Graf 4-6 6-3 6-2 1992 Wimbledon F Grass Steffi Graf Monica Seles 6-2 6-1 1992 FO - RG F Clay Monica Seles Steffi Graf 6-2 3-6 10-8 1990 FO - RG F Clay Monica Seles Steffi Graf 7-6(6) 6-4
No point talking about AO 93 to Graf fanatics. It triggers them like hell. They can't get over it even though Graf in all likelihood has. That's the one time they saw Graf crumble under the crunch under sustained pressure from Seles. This was not a one sided drubbing nor a narrow loss (like RG). It was a hard fought match but one in which Seles prevailed by a good margin. Deep down, Graf fanatics KNOW that there was every possibility for the script to have played out very differently had Seles not been stabbed. But they will deny even the possibility with all their might and point to non slam matches like US Hardcourt championships or Hamburg just to obfuscate the argument. It's not just about how the H2H was shaping up as of then but the momentum. The momentum was with Seles. And she got stabbed. That's not Graf's fault but it did make her competition easier. I can even accept the argument that Graf can't be blamed for Seles taking until 95 to get back. But the problem is Graf didn't even profit so much anyway in 94 and only won one slam that year. But in 93, she had it tough with eternal bunny MJF in the RG final and then escaped through the skin of her teeth with Novotna. Only at the USO and that after struggling against Manuela Maleeva did she finally put up an authoritative display. So yes...that part of the Graf fan argument is true. That Graf was in a funk in 91 especially regardless of Seles. But that, again, is not Seles' fault.
Arguing about when peak Graf turned up after 1989 becomes a bit like the Nadal never loses except when injured narrative. Nobody, well nobody other than Graf fans, gives a **** if Graf was hobbled mentally for one or the other of a variety of reasons because most players go through a slump at some point. But Seles got stabbed and on court which is very different and didn't happen to anyone else. It takes an obsessive level of Graf fandom to deny that the two things are not the same. In any case, Graf played better in the 93 AO final than in the 94 one and still lost. Why? Because she was facing Seles and not ASV. It was not the absence of peak Graf alone that allowed Seles to run up such an incredible winning streak. It was also that she posed questions that the others didn't of Graf. It was not at all clear that Graf had the answers.
The way it ended is a little unfair to Graf too because we couldn't see whether or not she would have eventually figured out Seles, great competitor that she was. But that's a lot less 'unfair' than not being able to play because you are afraid you will get stabbed again. If you (as in a Graf fan) want to say that **** happens, I would like to hear you say that to your 19 year old daughter. All the best with that!
I watched that '93 AO Final! I was no fan of Graf's, but I was almost hoping she'd win! Never a Seles fan with the way she played; esp. making all that F'n noise after every shot! It was the ugliest tennis at the time! She could be dragged into the net, but somehow slither back to the baseline and it just wasn't nice to look at! Graf was up a set and a break! I was screaming at the TV, "go the net and finish off the point!" Seles was just not missing and Graf literally choked this match away because of her intransigence with trying to go toe to toe with her! At Wimbledon Steffi attacked the net relentlessly so we know she can do it! It seems after all this time, an asterisk will have to be attached to Graf's record as Seles had her number except on grass! They had some tough matches, but Monica was just stronger mentally! The longer the match the better for her because Graf would crack eventually! She just wasn't accustomed to someone just outlasting her except for the few times with Gabby Sabatini!![]()
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No point talking about AO 93 to Graf fanatics. It triggers them like hell. They can't get over it even though Graf in all likelihood has. That's the one time they saw Graf crumble under the crunch under sustained pressure from Seles. This was not a one sided drubbing nor a narrow loss (like RG). It was a hard fought match but one in which Seles prevailed by a good margin. Deep down, Graf fanatics KNOW that there was every possibility for the script to have played out very differently had Seles not been stabbed. But they will deny even the possibility with all their might and point to non slam matches like US Hardcourt championships or Hamburg just to obfuscate the argument. It's not just about how the H2H was shaping up as of then but the momentum. The momentum was with Seles. And she got stabbed. That's not Graf's fault but it did make her competition easier. I can even accept the argument that Graf can't be blamed for Seles taking until 95 to get back. But the problem is Graf didn't even profit so much anyway in 94 and only won one slam that year. But in 93, she had it tough with eternal bunny MJF in the RG final and then escaped through the skin of her teeth with Novotna. Only at the USO and that after struggling against Manuela Maleeva did she finally put up an authoritative display. So yes...that part of the Graf fan argument is true. That Graf was in a funk in 91 especially regardless of Seles. But that, again, is not Seles' fault.
Arguing about when peak Graf turned up after 1989 becomes a bit like the Nadal never loses except when injured narrative. Nobody, well nobody other than Graf fans, gives a **** if Graf was hobbled mentally for one or the other of a variety of reasons because most players go through a slump at some point. But Seles got stabbed and on court which is very different and didn't happen to anyone else. It takes an obsessive level of Graf fandom to deny that the two things are not the same. In any case, Graf played better in the 93 AO final than in the 94 one and still lost. Why? Because she was facing Seles and not ASV. It was not the absence of peak Graf alone that allowed Seles to run up such an incredible winning streak. It was also that she posed questions that the others didn't of Graf. It was not at all clear that Graf had the answers.
The way it ended is a little unfair to Graf too because we couldn't see whether or not she would have eventually figured out Seles, great competitor that she was. But that's a lot less 'unfair' than not being able to play because you are afraid you will get stabbed again. If you (as in a Graf fan) want to say that **** happens, I would like to hear you say that to your 19 year old daughter. All the best with that!
A 22 year old ATG at her peak losing in a slam semi final to a 35 year old ATG
Checkmate !!!
Nothing more to argue, Navratilova is superior.