skaj
Legend
Your arguments are getting smarter and smarter.
Women's Best of the Present and All Time Greats - who is who?
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Your arguments are getting smarter and smarter.
joekapa
Legend
agreed.
skaj
Legend
Right, Graf was slumping during all of Seles's slams, and coincidentally stopped slumping right after the stabbing.
And of course, Graf would have won more slams if it hadn't been for the stabbing.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Serena 0 Golden/Grand Slams, 23 slams, 84.9 winning percentage
Navratilova 0 Golden/Grand Slams, 18 slams, 86.8 winning percentage
Court 1 Grand Slam, 24 slams, 91.8 winning percentage
Evert 0 Golden/Grand Slams, 18 slams, 90.0 winning percentage
Graf 1 Golden Slam, 22 slams, 89.2 winning percentage
Seles who??
It is between the Aussie and the Kraut girl.
The Yankee girls are third, fourth, fifth and tenth fiddle.
skaj
Legend
Seles, Graf's main rival, who was stabbed when she was dominating slams and being number one, after which Graf started dominating slams again and got back to the number one position. That Seles.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Seles fans never could explain to me why Steffi was only 65-8 win/loss in 1991 but 80-2 in the 12 months after the stabbing.
Do you have any idea?
joekapa
Legend
Those stats would not exist if Seles hadn't had her career cut short. And you know that.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
If an ATG 13 Years older to you can beat you in a slam in your peaks years of your 20s then it means you are not that good.
This is applicable even today, did Federer or Nadal or Novak lost to any fossil fuel who were like 13 years older ???? .... In this era of supreme fitness this is not applicable in men/women, so imagine how big a gap this age is 30 years back ????
Steffi's defeat to Navratilova in the 1991 US Open semi final decided the fate forever !
Navratilova is far ahead, had they been same age then Martina would have reduced Steffi to a Pigeon status.
Thank god that Steffi was 13 years younger.
This is applicable even today, did Federer or Nadal or Novak lost to any fossil fuel who were like 13 years older ???? .... In this era of supreme fitness this is not applicable in men/women, so imagine how big a gap this age is 30 years back ????
Steffi's defeat to Navratilova in the 1991 US Open semi final decided the fate forever !
Navratilova is far ahead, had they been same age then Martina would have reduced Steffi to a Pigeon status.
Thank god that Steffi was 13 years younger.
Booster Gold
Rookie
You can explain it as many times you want, it doesn't make it any more true.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Steffi dominated the slams again because she reached almost all the slam finals again from 1993 on (same as before the infamous Graf Blackmail Scandal).
Whereas from mid-90 to 1992 she made only 4 of 10 slam finals.
But I think that has been explained a thousand times already.
Booster Gold
Rookie
I don't think you know what bigotry is
skaj
Legend
How would I know why the Seles fans you were talking to could not explain something to you, especially something that is so easy to explain.
More importantly, what does that have to do with what I wrote?
R. Schweikart
Professional
Seles's career was not "cut short".
She played until 2003.
It was Steffi's career that was cut short by her knee surgery in 1997 (she won only one slam after that!!!).
R. Schweikart
Professional
Claiming that there are more than two genders for instance?
skaj
Legend
Yes, and it has nothing to do with stabbing of Seles, right.
And who was it "explained" by a thousand times - you?
R. Schweikart
Professional
R. Schweikart
Professional
You mean Seles prevented Steffi from making slam finals in 1990-92?
Did she stick needles in a Steffi voodoo puppet?
Care to elaborate....?
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
I am curious ... somebody please help me @skaj @Karma Tennis @Fiero425 @Gary Duane @NonP
Among the 10+ slam winners for Men and Female, how many of them have lost in a slam match in their career in their 20s at their peak to an old ATG 13 years older ???
Lets keep 10+ years older as a cutoff .... Loss in the second week would make things even more interesting.
I am curious.... LOL
Among the 10+ slam winners for Men and Female, how many of them have lost in a slam match in their career in their 20s at their peak to an old ATG 13 years older ???
Lets keep 10+ years older as a cutoff .... Loss in the second week would make things even more interesting.
I am curious.... LOL
Booster Gold
Rookie
Steffi-forever
Hall of Fame
Seles just snuck behind Graf in the early 90’s when Graf was being blackmailed and her game was deteriorating. No way Seles would have made her streak vs the late 80’s Graf full of confidence!
skaj
Legend
Yes, that too. Graf realized she's not the best player anymore, lost a lot of her confidence, and more importantly, other players realized she is not invincible, and became more confident when playing against here.
Glad I could help.
Do you want me to explain the percentages from one of your previous post? Though I really think that should not be necessary for someone who uses basic reasoning.
skaj
Legend
I wrote something you have no arguments against. That is why you are changing the subject I guess.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Exactly!
Just compare 1987 to April 1990 with the period from May 1990 to April 1992!!
titles wins / match losses: 40/7 vs. 14/16
slam finals reached (when playing): 12 of 12 vs. 3 of 7
R. Schweikart
Professional
Chris Evert lost to Billie Jean King in Wimbledon 1975.
Evert was definitely at her peak in 1975.
Serena? Never played an ATG in a slam.
Court? Never played an older ATG in a slam.
Navratilova? Never played an older ATG at her peak in a slam (lost to Court once in Wimbledon 1975).
Graf? Never played an older ATG at her peak in a slam (lost to Navratilova once at the USO 91 in her deep slump that year).
So Evert it is!!
Do I get a prize now?
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
1991 was during Graf's peak period since her peak started in 1988 itself .... You cannot be not at your physical peak just because you were losing.
Booster Gold
Rookie
Serena never played an ATG in a slam? Venus Williams, Justine Henin and Kim Cljisters would like a word. As would your girl Steffi.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
18 year old Graf had matchpoint vs 31 year old Navratilova in 1986 but lost the match
Anyway that can be pardoned since she was not at her peak, like Navratilova vs Court in 1975
But 1991 loss is a dealbreaker for Graf, she was at her peak and she was losing to some 35-36 year old grandma
Anyway that can be pardoned since she was not at her peak, like Navratilova vs Court in 1975
But 1991 loss is a dealbreaker for Graf, she was at her peak and she was losing to some 35-36 year old grandma
R. Schweikart
Professional
But how did it come that Steffi had a bigger lead in the WTA rankings at the end of 1990 than Seles ever had in 1991-93?
I mean, when she was not the "best player anymore" in 1990?
No, even as a slumping player she was clearly the best in 1990.
Only in spring 1991 Seles took over the #1 spot, getting thrashed by Steffi twice right away in the first months of being the top dog!
Her losses against Sabatini and Novotna between fall of 1990 and winter 1992 sucked all confidence out of Steffi. Seles didn't even have one win against Steffi in that period. She just picked up the pieces (= "vulturing").
Steffi-forever
Hall of Fame
Anyone who suggest Graf was at her peak in 1991 didn’t live the early 90s as a tennis fan! 1991 was Graf worst year from her 1986-1996 period and her lowest win percentage (below the 90).
Also she had a severe shoulder injury in that match vs Navratilova that messed up her entire summer post Wimbledon.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Steffi being "at her peak" at the USO 91?
When in the previous 12 months she
1) had her only loss ever in a slam to Sabatini (USO 90)
2) had her only loss ever in a slam to Novotna (AO 91)
3) had her worst loss ever in a slam (0-6 2-6 to Sanchez at the FO 91)
4) was 3-6 win/loss against Sabatini?
I would not call that Steffi's peak....
No I would not do that.
Evert in Wimbledon 1975 is different though.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
WTA Tour Final Titles Wins
Navratilova - 8
Serena - 5
Graf - 5
Evert - 4
WTA Finalist performances
Navratilova - 14
Evert - 8
Serena - 7
Graf - 6
Navratilova the champion of the year end championships ..... more reasons why she is the GOAT of the 20th century and possibly of all time tied with Serena.
Navratilova - 8
Serena - 5
Graf - 5
Evert - 4
WTA Finalist performances
Navratilova - 14
Evert - 8
Serena - 7
Graf - 6
Navratilova the champion of the year end championships ..... more reasons why she is the GOAT of the 20th century and possibly of all time tied with Serena.
Steffi-forever
Hall of Fame
Navratilova’ 12 out of her 18 slams have been won on grass.
Graf:
6 on clay
7 on grass
9 on hard court
Graf:
6 on clay
7 on grass
9 on hard court
R. Schweikart
Professional
There are 9 or 10 ATGs:
Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Court, King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf, S. Williams (and maybe Seles).
Venus? Kimmie??
Not even Henin is an ATG. Do you even know what "all-time" means?
Yeah, I'm looking forward to how Clijsters will be mentioned in awe in 50 years from now.....
R. Schweikart
Professional
"WTA finals" that is nice, so are Navratilova's mixed doubles titles. Not to forget Chicago!
I prefer one GOLDEN SLAM and four slams more. But that is just me.....
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
I was not yet born in 1991
But that doesn't matter, anybody can understand that Injury cannot be an excuse when playing some 36 yr old grandmas in your early 20s, if you turn up for a match then it means you are fit.
H2Hs in slams vs people with 10+ age difference is always heavily in favor of the younger ATG with a lopsided margin, but the fact that they are tied overall in h2h and Martina actually leads in slams h2h suggests that Martina is 1 tier above.
Sorry .... Graf's 22 slams are inflated, this is another indicator.
He actual slam count is only 15-16 as her H2H suggests, like @skaj and many others pointed out, without the stabbing Seles and Graf would be in the 16-17 ballpark ... Martina is above !!!
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Navratilova beat Graf at Tokyo Indoors as well in 1993 at age 37 
:
OMG ....LOL.....37 yr old in woman's tennis in early 1990s was like 43 years old now
Peak Graf lost to a senior citizen 13 years older
Ohh yeah, Graf is the GOAT for sure .... GOATs lost to 13+ people all the time
:OMG ....LOL.....37 yr old in woman's tennis in early 1990s was like 43 years old now
Peak Graf lost to a senior citizen 13 years older
Ohh yeah, Graf is the GOAT for sure .... GOATs lost to 13+ people all the time
Steffi-forever
Hall of Fame
Graf has more slams than Navratilova, more Australian Open titles, more French Open titles, more US Open titles, more weeks at #1, more year-ends at #1 and more Golden Grand Slam.I was not yet born in 1991
But that doesn't matter, anybody can understand that Injury cannot be an excuse when playing some 36 yr old grandmas in your early 20s, if you turn up for a match then it means you are fit.
H2Hs in slams vs people with 10+ age difference is always heavily in favor of the younger ATG with a lopsided margin, but the fact that they are tied overall in h2h and Martina actually leads in slams h2h suggests that Martina is 1 tier above.
Sorry .... Graf's 22 slams are inflated, this is another indicator.
He actual slam count is only 15-16 as her H2H suggests, like @skaj and many others pointed out, without the stabbing Seles and Graf would be in the 16-17 ballpark ... Martina is above !!!
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Explain why an ancient player of the 1970s has 2 crucial wins in the 1990s vs a player who was at her peak in 90s ????
This is like Sampras beating Nadal in 2010s decade, how good will it look for Nadal ????
cc @Kralingen
|
| Year | Name | Round | Surface | Winning Player | Losing Player | Score |
| 1994 | Tokyo Indoor | F | Carpet | Steffi Graf | Martina Navratilova | 6-2 6-4 |
| 1993 | Tokyo Indoor | SF | Carpet | Martina Navratilova | Steffi Graf | 4-6 6-3 6-3 |
| 1992 | Zurich | F | Carpet | Steffi Graf | Martina Navratilova | 2-6 7-5 7-5 |
| 1991 | US Open | SF | Hard | Martina Navratilova | Steffi Graf | 7-6(2) 6-7(6) 6-4 |
Steffi-forever
Hall of Fame
At her peak, Navratilova lost vs journey woman Horvath and slamless Sukova in slams. It’s like if Graf in 88-89 would have lost vs Sandra Cecchini and Mary Joe Fernandez. That would have never happened!
R. Schweikart
Professional
I was not yet born in 1991
...
That explains everything!!
So you don't know anything about the Graf Blackmail Scandal!
How Steffi and her family were viciously attacked until the end of the scandal (winter 1992).
How for instance the perps told the slobbering tabloids how Steffi's dad allegedly demanded from his prostitute mistress to wear Steffi's tennis clothes during sex (these unfounded claims were made to make Pa Graf recant his blackmail allegations).
Steffi almost quit the sport in winter 1990/91 because she couldn't take it anymore (when she was still #1).
Seles or Osaka would have shot themselves in the same situation.
Seles used Steffi's woes to take away Steffi's #1 position in 1991.
She tried the same 5 years later when Steffi was reeling under the Graf Tax Scandal, returning exactly in the weeks after that new scandal broke (July 1995). But this time the Serb miscalculated, bigly. Steffi was tough enough and fended off the assault.
R. Schweikart
Professional
So 5-6 slams less for Steffi?
But which slams should that have been?
Steffi fans never get a coherent answer to that.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Navratilova beat Graf at Tokyo Indoors as well in 1993 at age 37
OMG ....LOL.....37 yr old in woman's tennis in early 1990s was like 43 years old now
Peak Graf lost to a senior citizen 13 years older
Ohh yeah, Graf is the GOAT for sure .... GOATs lost to 13+ people all the time
You are lying again.
Steffi never lost to any 37-year-old.
Peak 1978/79 Navratilova lost three times to 15-year-old Andrea Jaeger.
Peak 1980 Navratilova lost to 36-year-old Billie Jean King with 1-6 3-6 (Houston, indoor carpet).
Ohh yeah, Navratilova is the GOAT for sure.... GOATs lose to 15-year-old non-greats again and again and again.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Explain why a baby 15-year-old player (who never won a slam) has 3 crucial wins in 1978/79 vs. a player who was at her peak in the late 70s????
Steffi-forever
Hall of Fame
Seles had many matches in her streak at slams were she was on the verge of defeat vs many type of players. She was way overdue for some big losses!
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Navratilova's peak started in 1981 when she was 25 years old, this everyone knows, so saying that she was at her peak before her peak run in slams began is lying.
I asked you to show me an instance when a 13 years older ATG in 30s beats a young player who was at her peak in 20s and you failed, closest answer was Jean King beating Navratilova in 1980 but as I said, her peak began in 1981 onwards so still not valid.
Graf was losing to grandma Navratilova in 1990s despite being a 10 slam winner ..... That is shameful .... After winning 10 slams and being in your 20s you are NOT SUPPOSED TO LOSE TO SOMEONE 13 years older in slams when you are at your peak.
If you say 90s was not peak for Graf then everyone will laugh at you.
You are lying again.
Steffi never lost to any 37-year-old.
Peak 1978/79 Navratilova lost three times to 15-year-old Andrea Jaeger.
Peak 1980 Navratilova lost to 36-year-old Billie Jean King with 1-6 3-6 (Houston, indoor carpet).
Ohh yeah, Navratilova is the GOAT for sure.... GOATs lose to 15-year-old non-greats again and again and again.
37 year old Navratilova in 1993 did beat 24 year old Graf
R. Schweikart
Professional
It is interesting to count journey women (players who never made it to the top 10) losses in slams of ATGs Graf, Williams, Navratilova during their slam winning years:
Graf: -
Navratilova:
So Navratilova's peak started in 1981, interesting. And how long did it last?
How long was Steffi's peak in comparison?
And how many losses did Seles have in the 90s against Navratilova?
Interesting questions, aren't they....?
I think that will silence you for today.
R. Schweikart
Professional
37-year-old Navratilova never beat Steffi.
That is simply a lie.
And you repeat it again and again.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Graf… and then Everyone else. Golden slam is insane. Especially in those days. Pre homogenization
Last edited:
R. Schweikart
Professional
Navratilova was not even 36 years and 4 months old when she beat Steffi in Tokyo 93.
But when she beat peak prime Seles the last time later that year she was older.
But not 37 years old in both cases.
You lie even in small things.
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