Women's Best of the Present and All Time Greats - who is who?

[Adam Copeland]

Graf… and then Everyone else. Golden slam insane. Especially in those days. Pre homogenization

In a weak era without ATGs at their peak to stop her ???

What is the value of such golden slams ?

When an actual ATG 4.5 years younger to her arrived, she started to crumble ...

 

[R. Schweikart]

In a weak era without ATGs at their peak to stop her ???

What is the value of such golden slams ?

When an actual ATG 4.5 years younger to her arrived, she started to crumble ...

What?
Navratilova not at her peak anymore in 1988?

When Seles arrived on the tour in March 1988 Steffi was on her way to the Golden Slam.
When Steffi started to crumble the Serb picked up the pieces.
When Steffi was back in peak form again the ex-Serb didn't have a lot to laugh anymore.

 

[Adam Copeland]

What?
Navratilova not at her peak anymore in 1988?

When Seles arrived on the tour in March 1988 Steffi was on her way to the Golden Slam.
When Steffi started to crumble the Serb picked up the pieces.
When Steffi was back in peak form again the ex-Serb didn't have a lot to laugh anymore.

Navratilova was 32-33 in 1988

Is that the age for peak for the 80s when played were finished by their late 20s ?

Stefi was a weak era merchant in the absence of able bodied prime ATGs, thats why after her success in late 80s she went down to seles in 90s and if it wasnt for a lunatic removing seles from the playing field it would have been game over for Stefi.

 

[Steffi-forever]

Navratilova was not even 36 years and 4 months old when she beat Steffi in Tokyo 93.
But when she beat peak prime Seles the last time later that year she was older.

But not 37 years old in both cases.
You lie even in small things.

I like Djokovic a lot but he did lose vs 38yo Federer in a indoor court as well. I don’t know why it is such a big deal, both federer and Navratilova are truly great indoor and on fast courts and were always a threat when they were healthy!

 

[Steffi-forever]

In a weak era without ATGs at their peak to stop her ???

What is the value of such golden slams ?

When an actual ATG 4.5 years younger to her arrived, she started to crumble ...

Please, have a look at the many weak draws Navratilova faced in early-mid 80s.

 

[Adam Copeland]

I like Djokovic a lot but he did lose vs 38yo Federer in a indoor court as well. I don’t know why it is such a big deal, both federer and Navratilova are truly great indoor and on fast courts and were always a threat when they were healthy!

Yes Federer is greatest on fast courts in the 21st century, sameway even Navratilova is greatest, but the Fed-Novak argument is not valid here.

Because Federer is close to Djokovic in age to beat him, their age difference is only 6 years.

If their age difference was 13 years or even 10 years do you think Novak will lose ????

Can you imagine anyone born in 1975 or anyone born in 1977 beat 1987 born Djokovic in 2010s ? .... It is impossible

So Graf (in her peak years) losing twice to Navratilova despite 13 years age gap is what seriously punctures her argument for GOAT and of course Seles factor is also there, 4 french opens + 1 AO = 5 slams flat from 1993 onwards which we can reduce from Graf's tally, those would all be won by Seles ...... At W+USO yes Seles was not very good but Seles was a 2 time USO champ too, could expect her to take 1-2 slams there too even though it was her weak surface ..... Thats why I said 6-7 slams would be reduced from Graf's tally of 22 with Seles there.


^ This is only fair because Martina played majority of her career in the presence of another GOAT Candidate in Evert, so some adjustment has to be done for fair comparison.

 

[Booster Gold]

I am stunned that Graf supporters have the gall to talk about a weak era when Steffi only played against people who wouldnt get out of the first round today.

Evert or Henin would beat every one of Graf's "competitors" one-handed.

The fact is there is no single GOAT in tennis

 

[R. Schweikart]

Navratilova was 32-33 in 1988

Is that the age for peak for the 80s when played were finished by their late 20s ?

Stefi was a weak era merchant in the absence of able bodied prime ATGs, thats why after her success in late 80s she went down to seles in 90s and if it wasnt for a lunatic removing seles from the playing field it would have been game over for Stefi.

Navratilova was 31 years old in 1988 when Steffi won her Golden Slam.
Not 32-33.
You are a pathological liar.

So Navratilova's peak started in 1981, you said so.
But when did it end?
1986 (even though 16-year-old Steffi schooled her with 6-2 6-3 in Berlin that year)?
Just 6 years?

And how long was Steffi's peak?
1987-96?
10 years?

That makes Steffi the GOAT, right?

 

[Adam Copeland]

Navratilova was 31 years old in 1988 when Steffi won her Golden Slam.
Not 32-33.
You are a pathological liar.

So Navratilova's peak started in 1981, you said so.
But when did it end?
1986 (even though 16-year-old Steffi schooled her with 6-2 6-3 in Berlin that year)?
Just 6 years?

And how long was Steffi's peak?
1987-96?
10 years?

That makes Steffi the GOAT, right?

31+ in 1980s was like 36+ now

Anyway, not interested in wasting my time arguing with you.

Steffi will remain below Navratilova, Serena and Evert for me, this won't change no matter how much you bang your head on the wall.

Bye!

 

[R. Schweikart]

31+ in 1980s was like 36+ now

Anyway, not interested in wasting my time arguing with you.

Steffi will remain below Navratilova, Serena and Evert for me, this won't change no matter how much you bang your head on the wall.

Bye!

So you said Navratilova's peak started in 1981.
You mean the year when she lost three times to a 15-year-old Andrea Jaeger and was double-bageled by Chris Evert?

Thank God Steffi never had a "peak" like that.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Well, women's tennis was a lot weaker back then! Seles might have snuck in a win at Wimbledon if enough happened to facilitate an easy final!

If she needed pieces to fall in place for her to have an easy final, then she did not deserve to even be there. Seles' one final was Graf enrolling Seles in a serious tennis clinic when Seles was at the height of her game. Wimbledon was never going to add Seles to the list of champions.

 

[skaj]

But how did it come that Steffi had a bigger lead in the WTA rankings at the end of 1990 than Seles ever had in 1991-93?
I mean, when she was not the "best player anymore" in 1990?
No, even as a slumping player she was clearly the best in 1990.
Only in spring 1991 Seles took over the #1 spot, getting thrashed by Steffi twice right away in the first months of being the top dog!
Her losses against Sabatini and Novotna between fall of 1990 and winter 1992 sucked all confidence out of Steffi. Seles didn't even have one win against Steffi in that period. She just picked up the pieces (= "vulturing").

Because the 16 years old Seles was not dominating the slams yet, she won only Roland Garros that year. Any other questions with easy answers?

And Seles was not trashed by Graf twice, don’t fabricate, however desperate you are. Also, Graf did not meet Seles in a slam during the period you chose - in matches where Monica’s edge over Graf, her mentality, plays its part.

Still teen, but more improved of course, Seles “vultured” the 1992 Roland Gaross and 1993 Australian Open too I guess. You know, right before the stabbing, after which Graf started dominating the slams again.

And yes, Sabatini and Novotna sucked all the confidence out of Graf, by no means it was Seles.

 

[Fiero425]

If she needed pieces to fall in place for her to have an easy final, then she did not deserve to even be there. Seles' one final was Graf enrolling Seles in a serious tennis clinic when Seles was at the height of her game. Wimbledon was never going to add Seles to the list of champions.

Wow!!!! - I have no words! Live in ignorance!

 

[Fiero425]

Because the 16 years old Seles was not dominating the slams yet, she won only Roland Garros that year. Any other questions with easy answers?

And Seles was not trashed by Graf twice, don’t fabricate, however desperate you are. Also, Graf did not meet Seles in a slam during the period you chose - in matches where Monica’s edge over Graf, her mentality, plays its part.

Still teen, but more improved of course, Seles “vultured” the 1992 Roland Gaross and 1993 Australian Open too I guess. You know, right before the stabbing, after which Graf started dominating the slams again.

And yes, Sabatini and Novotna sucked all the confidence out of Graf, by no means it was Seles.

Some fans can't see the forest for the proverbial trees! I got another one who thought Seles wouldn't deserve a Wimbledon if things didn't fall into place! I guess they're ready to take all the odd winners of the championship and remove their names off the trophy like Martinez, Hingis, & Bartoli! Idiots!

 

[R. Schweikart]

Some fans can't see the forest for the proverbial trees! I got another one who thought Seles wouldn't deserve a Wimledon if things didn't fall into place! I guess they're ready to take all the odd winners of the championship and remove their names off the trophy like Martinez, Hingis, & Bartoli! Idiots!

So because Ostapenko won the FO Kostyuk might win it, too?
Or because Raducanu won the USO Tauson might win it, too?
Or because Leicester City won the PL Birmingham City might win it, too?
Yeah, sounds reasonable.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Because the 16 years old Seles was not dominating the slams yet, she won only Roland Garros that year. Any other questions with easy answers?
....

And yet Steffi realized already right in the middle of 1990 that "she wasn't the best player anymore" which then led to her slump?
That is Seles fanatic logic.

...
And Seles was not trashed by Graf twice, don’t fabricate, however desperate you are. Also, Graf did not meet Seles in a slam during the period you chose - in matches where Monica’s edge over Graf, her mentality, plays its part.
...

So Seles was thrashed only once by Steffi and just comprehensively beaten in the second match.
Oh, so the mentality plays a part?
And Steffi was mentally in top form in 1990-92, right? I mean that's why she was 1-7 win/loss to Sabatini at some point in 1990/92, yes?
And Seles was mentally so strong in 1995-2003, yeah....

...
Still teen, but more improved of course, Seles “vultured” the 1992 Roland Gaross and 1993 Australian Open too I guess. You know, right before the stabbing, after which Graf started dominating the slams again.

And yes, Sabatini and Novotna sucked all the confidence out of Graf, by no means it was Seles.

Well, Seles in her two greatest years ever (1991/92) was 1-3 win/loss against Steffi.
But Sabatini was 6-2.
So you are right at least in that one.

But generally you are a very low-intelligence poster. Typical for Seles fanatics.

 

[R. Schweikart]

If she needed pieces to fall in place for her to have an easy final, then she did not deserve to even be there. Seles' one final was Graf enrolling Seles in a serious tennis clinic when Seles was at the height of her game. Wimbledon was never going to add Seles to the list of champions.

Yes, 1992 was Seles's best year ever.
But only Steffi's 9th-best.
And yet Steffi beat Seles 6-2 6-1 in Wimbledon!

Imagine what would have happened if Steffi in her best year ever had met Seles in, say, her 6th-best ever or so in Wimbledon.
Oh wait, that happened! In 1989!!
And what was the result?
Steffi won 6-0 6-1.

And now imagine what would have happened if Steffi in her best year ever had met Seles in her 9th-best ever in Wimbledon.
It is no rocket science - it would have been a 6-0 6-0 (because worse is not possible).

Seles making the Wimbledon 92 final was a fluke.
She never deserved that, embarrassed the sport with going belly-up in about 50 minutes. That was supposed to be a #1 player???
In the last 30 years there have been only two slam finals with worse losses - Sanchez' 0-6 2-6 to Steffi at the AO 94 and Pierce's 1-6 1-6 to Henin at the FO 05.

 

[skaj]

And yet Steffi realized already right in the middle of 1990 that "she wasn't the best player anymore" which then led to her slump?
That is Seles fanatic logic.



So Seles was thrashed only once by Steffi and just comprehensively beaten in the second match.
Oh, so the mentality plays a part?
And Steffi was mentally in top form in 1990-92, right? I mean that's why she was 1-7 win/loss to Sabatini at some point in 1990/92, yes?
And Seles was mentally so strong in 1995-2003, yeah....



Well, Seles in her two greatest years ever (1991/92) was 1-3 win/loss against Steffi.
But Sabatini was 6-2.
So you are right at least in that one.

But generally you are a very low-intelligence poster. Typical for Seles fanatics.

She realised after playing and losing to Monica, yes, perfectly logical.

She wasn’t “trashed” in any of the two matches mentioned, much less in both matches as you tried to fabricate previously. She lost with one break differences in 2 sets in one and 3 sets in another.

(pre-stabbing)Seles was mentally top in the top matches – at slams, as I said in my previous post, don’t misinterpret my words in the lack of arguments you desperate person. 1995-2003 was after the stabbing, the event you have problems remembering. Graf was never mentaly top when prime Monica was around, it was explained to you in this very thread, and other players became more confident against her for the same reason – stop repeating your ‘arguments” that have been exposed already.

And your singling out of the 1991 1992 seasons, is just showing your lack of arguments. Even in that period of yours Seles, a teenager at that time by the way, won half of the important matches they played(in the one she lost she was told not to grunt), and then went to the next season, won the next important match they played and then – got stabbed.

It’s funny how you are calling someone unintelligent, when all of your posts here are extremely unintelligent, and single one of them that was a reply to mine exposed as wrong, illogical, senseless. Not to mention calling someone a fanatic, being the greatest grafanatic I have seen.

 

[skaj]

Yes, 1992 was Seles's best year ever.
But only Steffi's 9th-best.
And yet Steffi beat Seles 6-2 6-1 in Wimbledon!

Imagine what would have happened if Steffi in her best year ever had met Seles in, say, her 6th-best ever or so in Wimbledon.
Oh wait, that happened! In 1989!!
And what was the result?
Steffi won 6-0 6-1.

And now imagine what would have happened if Steffi in her best year ever had met Seles in her 9th-best ever in Wimbledon.
It is no rocket science - it would have been a 6-0 6-0 (because worse is not possible).

Seles making the Wimbledon 92 final was a fluke.
She never deserved that, embarrassed the sport with going belly-up in about 50 minutes. That was supposed to be a #1 player???
In the last 30 years there have been only two slam finals with worse losses - Sanchez' 0-6 2-6 to Steffi at the AO 94 and Pierce's 1-6 1-6 to Henin at the FO 05.

Monica's best year as a player was 1993, the one that was interrupted by Graf's fan who stabbed her.
She lost at Wimbledon with that score in 1992 when she was told not to grunt.
And oh wait yourself, Seles was a 15 year old in 1989, playing one of her first professional matches on grass.

So I am guessing your laughing emojis are you laughing at your own quasi arguments.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Your arguments are getting smarter and smarter.

And therein lies your problem.

I am not arguing with you, you are arguing with me and a lot of other posters on here too.

I've simply stated facts. You are the one disputing them so you are the one presenting the arguments. Whether your arguments are valid are not are for others to judge, not me. I've simply stated facts.

Cheers

 

[R. Schweikart]

Monica's best year as a player was 1993, the one that was interrupted by Graf's fan who stabbed her.
...

Until Hamburg 1993 Seles lost 6 sets in 16 matches.
The year before it was 4 sets in 28 matches.

In the 12 months before the stabbing she had a winning percentage of 92 %.
In the previous 12 months it was still 94 %.

I love it when you shoot yourself in the foot again and again and again.

Seles was comparable to Austin, Jaeger, Hingis - success as teenager but declining thereafter. All of them weren't athletes like Navratilova, Graf, Williams.
It was plain to see even in 1993.

 

[R. Schweikart]

...
Graf was never mentaly top when prime Monica was around, it was explained to you in this very thread, and other players became more confident against her for the same reason – stop repeating your ‘arguments” that have been exposed already.
...

And then when Seles had been stabbed the other players coincidently became less and less confident, right?
That is Seles fanatics's logic.

 

[skaj]

And therein lies your problem.

I am not arguing with you, you are arguing with me and a lot of other posters on here too.

I've simply stated facts. You are the one disputing them so you are the one presenting the arguments. Whether your arguments are valid are not are for others to judge, not me. I've simply stated facts.

Cheers

I don’t have any problems here, as it can be seen in the posts.

You did not state facts here, you gave your (wrong)opinions. And plenty of wrong arguments. That was the point of my post.

Hope it's clear now.

Cheers.

 

[skaj]

Until Hamburg 1993 Seles lost 6 sets in 16 matches.
The year before it was 4 sets in 28 matches.

In the 12 months before the stabbing she had a winning percentage of 92 %.
In the previous 12 months it was still 94 %.

I love it when you shoot yourself in the foot again and again and again.

Seles was comparable to Austin, Jaeger, Hingis - success as teenager but declining thereafter. All of them weren't athletes like Navratilova, Graf, Williams.
It was plain to see even in 1993.

Monica lost SETS! Wow! She was such a loser... Especially when she lost the first set in a slam finals to a great player and then she come back and won the whole thing – such a loser, not to mention a mental midget...

And what do the percentages you have mention have to do with what I have said, that she had basically the same percentages in the last two 12 months before the stabbing? And how does that make me “shoot my own foot” in your twisted logic exactly?

Yes, Seles was a success as a teenager, being number one, dominating slams, dominating Graf in slams and then she declined – because she was stabbed, after which Graf immediately started dominating again.

What was plain to see in 1993 was the she figured out all the players, that she was there to stay, determent as she was, and that she was gonna stay number one for a while. Gunter Parche saw that too – that’s why he stabbed her.

 

[skaj]

And then when Seles had been stabbed the other players coincidently became less and less confident, right?
That is Seles fanatics's logic.

Because Graf's confidence, courage and determination raised. She knew that it was her chance, she new there won't be Monica waiting for her in the finals, she new she was better than other players.
It was told to you in this very forum, in case you were not able to conclude the obvious yourself. So please stop with repeating your quasi arguments that have been exposed as wrong already.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Monica lost SETS! Wow! She was such a loser... Especially when she lost the first set in a slam finals to a great player and then she come back and won the whole thing – such a loser, not to mention a mental midget...

And what do the percentages you have mention have to do with what I have said, that she had basically the same percentages in the last two 12 months before the stabbing? And how does that make me “shoot my own foot” in your twisted logic exactly?

Yes, Seles was a success as a teenager, being number one, dominating slams, dominating Graf in slams and then she declined – because she was stabbed, after which Graf immediately started dominating again.

What was plain to see in 1993 was the she figured out all the players, that she was there to stay, determent as she was, and that she was gonna stay number one for a while. Gunter Parche saw that too – that’s why he stabbed her.

Some clown suggested that Seles "was improving" in 1993 or that this year was her "prime".
Which is BS of course. If the numbers show anything then they show a slight decline. A shot in your own foot, thank you, m'am!

Steffi is the one who was improving.
Which the numbers clearly show.

Any proof for your claim that Seles's decline was connecting with your precious stabbing? And not with her eating disorder problems? Or her dad being diagnosed with terminal cancer in 1993 (which is definitely a worse thing than a quickly healing stab wound)?

So you and Parche had the same world view. How fitting.


BTW, Seles's decline:
winning percentage May 1991 - April 1992: 93.83 %
winning percentage May 1992 - April 1993: 92.06 %
------
winning percentage August 1995 - July 1996: 89.47 %
winning percentage August 1996 - July 1997: 78.69 %

So the slow decline already started in 1992/93, continued slowly after a two-year absence - and gained real speed in 1996/97 (due to injuries).
So between May 1993 and August 1995 her winning percentage most probably would have been around 90 or 91 %, the trajectory was plain to see.
Steffi was far better in 1993-96.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Because Graf's confidence, courage and determination raised. She knew that it was her chance, she new there won't be Monica waiting for her in the finals, she new she was better than other players.
It was told to you in this very forum, in case you were not able to conclude the obvious yourself. So please stop with repeating your quasi arguments that have been exposed as wrong already.

So Steffi lost tons of matches from mid 1990 to 1992 to Sabatini/Novotna/Garrison/Navratilova because she was so afraid of Seles, a player she had a winning record against even in these dark times?
As I said - Seles fanatics logic.

 

[skaj]

Some clown suggested that Seles "was improving" in 1993 or that this year was her "prime".
Which is BS of course. If the numbers show anything then they show a slight decline. A shot in your own foot, thank you, m'am!

Steffi is the one who was improving.
Which the numbers clearly show.

Any proof for your claim that Seles's decline was connecting with your precious stabbing? And not with her eating disorder problems? Or her dad being diagnosed with terminal cancer in 1993 (which is definitely a worse thing than a quickly healing stab wound)?

So you and Parche had the same world view. How fitting.


BTW, Seles's decline:
winning percentage May 1991 - April 1992: 93.83 %
winning percentage May 1992 - April 1993: 92.06 %
------
winning percentage August 1995 - July 1996: 89.47 %
winning percentage August 1996 - July 1997: 78.69 %

So the slow decline already started in 1992/93, continued slowly after a two-year absence - and gained real speed in 1996/97 (due to injuries).
So between May 1993 and August 1995 her winning percentage most probably would have been around 90 or 91 %, the trajectory was plain to see.
Steffi was far better in 1993-96.

If someone who thinks that a 19 year old determent number one pro does not improve calls someone who thinks they do a clown, I don’t think we need to comment more on that certain someone and their judgement. Same goes for the certain someone who thinks that Monica Seles was not in her prime in 1993, when she was the number one, dominating slams.

Proof of "my" claim that Seles has declined after stabbing? It’s not my nor it’s a “claim” it’s a fact and common sense for everyone with clear thinking. She got stabbed in 1993 and she stopped playing for the next 6 slams and developed a mental illness after being brutally attacked at her work place. Everyone gets it but you, figure it out why. And her father died in 1998, malignancy(≠ terminal) was discovered in December 1993, Monica missed 3 slams before that, also she played during his illness later, he was coming to the matches, stop fabricating.

Yes, me, Parche and the whole world, except you obviously, had the same view of the facts – that Monica Seles was the number one, that she was dominating slams, and dominating Graf in slams, and that there was a good chance she would continue doing that. That is why Parche, a lunatic grafanatic that he was, stabbed her.

Those percentages are not decline, there are less than two percentages difference - they are a constant. A percentage that by the way depend on so many factors, the simplification of your (mis)interpretation is one of the most unintelligent conclusions you came up with here(and the competition is tough).

Steffi was better in 1993 -1996 – because there was no prime Monica around.

And the “slow decline” brought her to victory over Graf at another slam, easier than the previous one.

In other words – how delusional can you be?

 

[skaj]

So Steffi lost tons of matches from mid 1990 to 1992 to Sabatini/Novotna/Garrison/Navratilova because she was so afraid of Seles, a player she had a winning record against even in these dark times?
As I said - Seles fanatics logic.

Are you laughing at your own inability to understand the simple content? Don't be too hard on yourself.

I will repeat, I suggest you read slowly then. A player who she had a losing record at slams in the period you chose, and who she had a winning record overall because she played her 3 times when Seles was a 15 year old.
Because she was afraid to Monica, and she knew she can lose against her, she did not have confidence, courage and determination she once had, while other players had more of the same things when playing against her for the same reason.

 

[R. Schweikart]

If someone who thinks that a 19 year old determent number one pro does not improve calls someone who thinks they do a clown, ...

Proof of "my" claim that Seles has declined after stabbing? It’s not my nor it’s a “claim” it’s a fact and common sense
...

Well all remember how Tracy Austin, Andrea Jaeger, Martina Hingis improved after age 19.

Austin?
The girl who as a 16/18-year-old was 9-3 win/loss against peak Chris Evert 1979 to 1981.
And 8-4 against peak Navratilova from mid-1979 to 1981.

Jaeger?
The girl who as a 15-year-old beat peak Navratilova four times in 1980/81.
And as a 16-year-old beat peak Evert three times in 1982.

Hingis?
The girl who won three slams at age 16 and was #1 for 209 weeks.

Seles?
The same - a prodigy but not an athlete. This type of player usually fizzles out very fast.
There is only one player who had supreme success as a teenager and later - the great Stefanie Maria Graf (a.k.a. GOAT)!

 

[R. Schweikart]

...
Steffi was better in 1993 -1996 – because there was no prime Monica around.
...

Steffi from May 1990 to April 1993 (36 months):
215-24 win/loss (89.96 %).
23 tournament wins (50 %).
5 of 14 major finals (slams, YECs) reached (35.71 %).

Steffi from May 1993 to 1996 (44 months):
207-14 win/loss (93.67 %).
31 tournament wins (70.45 %).
14 of 17 major finals reached (82.35 %).

Yet another insane claim of yours debunked - easily.

 

[R. Schweikart]

...
Because she was afraid to Monica, and she knew she can lose against her, she did not have confidence, courage and determination she once had, while other players had more of the same things when playing against her for the same reason.

Yes, that's why Steffi was 3-1 win/loss against Seles in 1991/92 but 2-6 win/loss against Sabatini.
The fear of Seles made her win against Seles but lose to Sabatini.
Seles fanatics logic.

 

[Karma Tennis]

I don’t have any problems here, as it can be seen in the posts.

Hope it's clear now.

Cheers.

You continue to argue points on the basis of your opinions rather than using actual facts.

Perfectly clear ... you are unable to distinguish between opinions and facts. Just stick to facts and you will be fine.

Cheers

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Greatest Players of the 20st Century

ATP - Pistol Sampras
WTA - Navratilova

Nonsense. Sampras & Navratilova never won the Grand Slam, the distinctive achievement of the GOAT players. Both lacked the concentrated dominance in the accepted frame of the calendar year to win the greatest of all tennis prizes. Navratilova never matched Graf's astounding talent and court insight--it was not in Navratilova's nature to ever be that kind of supreme player.

 

[NAS]

In a weak era without ATGs at their peak to stop her ???

What is the value of such golden slams ?

When an actual ATG 4.5 years younger to her arrived, she started to crumble ...

Don't think that was weak era

 

[Fiero425]

Nonsense. Sampras & Navratilova never won the Grand Slam, the distinctive achievement of the GOAT players. Both lacked the concentrated dominance in the accepted frame of the calendar year to win the greatest of all tennis prizes. Navratilpova never matched Graf's astounding talent and court insight--it was not in Navratilova's nature to ever be that kind of supreme player.

Winning the Grand Slam? We were so invested in making Sampras the ATG, we allowed him that moniker without a French Open final on his resume!

 

[skaj]

Well all remember how Tracy Austin, Andrea Jaeger, Martina Hingis improved after age 19.

Austin?
The girl who as a 16/18-year-old was 9-3 win/loss against peak Chris Evert 1979 to 1981.
And 8-4 against peak Navratilova from mid-1979 to 1981.

Jaeger?
The girl who as a 15-year-old beat peak Navratilova four times in 1980/81.
And as a 16-year-old beat peak Evert three times in 1982.

Hingis?
The girl who won three slams at age 16 and was #1 for 209 weeks.

Seles?
The same - a prodigy but not an athlete. This type of player usually fizzles out very fast.
There is only one player who had supreme success as a teenager and later - the great Stefanie Maria Graf (a.k.a. GOAT)!

Are you yet again using laughing emojis to laugh at your own poor statements? Cause all do remember how Nadal, another teen success player(5-1 against peak Federer) known for his determination like Monica, improved after 19.

 

[skaj]

Steffi from May 1990 to April 1993 (36 months):
215-24 win/loss (89.96 %).
23 tournament wins (50 %).
5 of 14 major finals (slams, YECs) reached (35.71 %).

Steffi from May 1993 to 1996 (44 months):
207-14 win/loss (93.67 %).
31 tournament wins (70.45 %).
14 of 17 major finals reached (82.35 %).

Yet another insane claim of yours debunked - easily.

Now I don’t know if you have problems with counting or with mental health, cause the figures you gave are backing up what I said.

 

[skaj]

Yes, that's why Steffi was 3-1 win/loss against Seles in 1991/92 but 2-6 win/loss against Sabatini.
The fear of Seles made her win against Seles but lose to Sabatini.
Seles fanatics logic.

And again you are using laughing emojis to laugh at your poor logic. Oh dear, oh dear...

So, no, it’s grafanatic’s logic which chooses the segments of Monica’s prime according to numbers it needs at that particular moment.
We can also, for example choose another 2 years period from her prime. The numbers would be very different.

In reality the whole Seles’s prime is from her 1990 clay season when she won her 1st slam to the stabbing – where Graf is 1-3 against Seles in slams.

 

[skaj]

You continue to argue points on the basis of your opinions rather than using actual facts.

Perfectly clear ... you are unable to distinguish between opinions and facts. Just stick to facts and you will be fine.

Cheers

No, I don’t, that is what you do, as said in my previous post. That is why you had to change my quotes(how desperate of you by the way) when replying that very post of mine.

 

[Adam Copeland]

Nonsense. Sampras & Navratilova never won the Grand Slam, the distinctive achievement of the GOAT players. Both lacked the concentrated dominance in the accepted frame of the calendar year to win the greatest of all tennis prizes. Navratilpova never matched Graf's astounding talent and court insight--it was not in Navratilova's nature to ever be that kind of supreme player.

Even Agassi has won all 4 slams but Sampras never won, such claims are not of much importance.

Sampras has the highest peak among everyone from the 20th century and the same could be said of Martina Navratilova too.

Both of them were too dominant on the fast courts, that is enough to put them past everyone else.

 

[Adam Copeland]

Don't think that was weak era

According to many experts late 70s to mid 80s and then late 90s to late 00s was a very strong phase in WTA.

Graf's golden slam was won in a weak phase (where Martina-Evert were in early-mid 30s and were way past their prime) but the arrival of Seles made the early 90s extremely strong but again with her exit WTA became a bit weak until late 90s.

 

[Fiero425]

According to many experts late 70s to mid 80s and then late 90s to late 00s was a very strong phase in WTA.

Graf's golden slam was won in a weak phase but the arrival of Seles made the early 90s extremely strong but again with her exit WTA became a bit weak until late 90s.

The late 80's & early 90's were a great time for women's tennis after the era of the "Martina and Chris Show" every week! During that period, they had to sit down to split up the tournaments to make sure at least one of them was there! After Seles, Sabatini, and Graf arrived, they were actually able to have 2 ladies' events playing at the same time like Florida VS and Paris Indoor! It was amazing to see Graf and Sabatini playing a final in the States while Martina and Monica were playing in Europe!

 

[Adam Copeland]

The late 80's & early 90's were a great time for women's tennis after the era of the "Martina and Chris Show" every week! During that period, they had to sit down to split up the tournaments to make sure at least one of them was there! After Seles, Sabatini, and Graf arrived, they were actually able to have 2 ladies' events playing at the same time like Florida VS and Paris Indoor! It was amazing to see Graf and Sabatini playing a final in the States while Martina and Monica were playing in Europe!

Sir,

What is your all time top 10 for ladies ?

Please give list and if possible some justification too ...

 

[Fiero425]

Sir,

What is your all time top 10 for ladies ?

Please give list and if possible some justification too ...

Not just because I'm a fan, but because her record spells it out, Martina Navratilova the GOAT! I don't GAF about Serena, Graf, & Court with their limited resumes!

1- Navratilova w/ 167 Singles, 177 Doubles titles, 74 match winning streak, won 6 majors in a row, 9 Wimbledons, a "Box Set" completed at AO '03 w/ Leander Paz, taking her last major at '06 USO approaching 50 years old! NUFF said!

2) Serena - She could have been the GOAT but for limited play interest and injury! She literally came and went from the tour on whims!

3) Graf - Hard to put her anywhere near the top since we all know her resume's inflated due to Seles being stabbed in '93!

4) Court - She has 62 Majors to her credit, but most of them in pre-Open era when AO was little more than a Nat'l Champ. before the mid 70's!

5) Evert - Won 157 titles along with 18 majors; more a clay court great IMO!

6) Seles - No real fan in any capacity, but she was on a trajectory to be an ATG but for the stabbing!

7) Henin - Did a lot with that little body of hers! Most women were Amazons in comparison, but she got the job done!

8) Hingis - Limited resume, but she did a lot before age 20 being the youngest to win a major, 3 AO in a row, and held the #1 ranking for over 200 weeks!

9) King - She's the Mother of women's pro tennis and deserves more credit than her 12 Major titles!

10) Venus - Limited game & very few weeks at #1, but strong when she didn't have to play Serena or Hingis!

Just OTTH you understand!

 

[Adam Copeland]

Not just because I'm a fan, but because her record spells it out, Martina Navratilova the GOAT! I don't GAF about Serena, Graf, & Court with their limited resumes!

1- Navratilova w/ 167 Singles, 177 Doubles titles, 74 match winning streak, won 6 majors in a row, 9 Wimbledons, a "Box Set" completed at AO '03 w/ Leander Paz, taking her last major at '06 USO approaching 50 years old! NUFF said!

2) Serena - She could have been the GOAT but for limited play interest and injury! She literally came and went from the tour on whims!

3) Graf - Hard to put her anywhere near the top since we all know her resume's inflated due to Seles being stabbed in '93!

4) Court - She has 62 Majors to her credit, but most of them in pre-Open era when AO was little more than a Nat'l Champ. before the mid 70's!

5) Evert - Won 157 titles along with 18 majors; more a clay court great IMO!

6) Seles - No real fan in any capacity, but she was on a trajectory to be an ATG but for the stabbing!

7) Henin - Did a lot with that little body of hers! Most women were Amazons in comparison, but she got the job done!

8) Hingis - Limited resume, but she did a lot before age 20 being the youngest to win a major, 3 AO in a row, and held the #1 ranking for over 200 weeks!

9) King - She's the Mother of women's pro tennis and deserves more credit than her 12 Major titles!

10) Venus - Limited game & very few weeks at #1, but strong when she didn't have to play Serena or Hingis!

Just OTTH you understand!

Nice List ....

I agree with it .... seems fair.

Truly Martina and Serena are the champs..... the 1 and 2.

A cut above the rest.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Are you yet again using laughing emojis to laugh at your own poor statements? Cause all do remember how Nadal, another teen success player(5-1 against peak Federer) known for his determination like Monica, improved after 19.

The best 15/16-year-old players in the open era were:
1. Hingis
2. Austin
3. Seles
4. Jaeger
5. Graf
6. Capriati

All floundered after their teen years - except the great Steffi (a.k.a. GOAT).
OK, Capriati won 3 slams later as a 25/26-year-old and Seles won one at age 22.

But both were not made of the same stuff Steffi was.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Now I don’t know if you have problems with counting or with mental health, cause the figures you gave are backing up what I said.

You mean your demented theory that Seles scared Steffi so much in spring 1990 that she lost again and again to Sabatini and Novotna after that - but usually beat Seles?

Say, what went wrong with you as a kid?
Did your mum accidentaly let you fall on your head too often?

 

[R. Schweikart]

...
In reality the whole Seles’s prime is from her 1990 clay season when she won her 1st slam to the stabbing – where Graf is 1-3 against Seles in slams.

And yet Steffi had a bigger lead in the WTA rankings over Seles at the end of 1990 than Seles ever had in 1991-93.
Steffi was still ahead by 278 to 203 average points (75 pts.).
Seles's maximum lead later was 58 pts. (end of 1991).; right before the stabbing in April 1993 it were only 21 pts.

BTW, Sanchez was 2-1 in slam finals against Steffi in 1989-1994. She beat Steffi in two slam finals in 1989 and 1994. And those were not Steffi slump years.
Same with Navratilova, she was 2-1 in slam finals in 1987. One of Steffi's best years ever.
Seles was only able to beat Steffi in slam finals during Steffi's slump.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Even Agassi has won all 4 slams but Sampras never won, such claims are not of much importance.

Sampras has the highest peak among everyone from the 20th century and the same could be said of Martina Navratilova too.

Both of them were too dominant on the fast courts, that is enough to put them past everyone else.

Steffi was dominant on every surface.
Won at least 6 slams on grass, hard courts and clay.
She is easily among the top 3 of all time on all surfaces. And that is the reason why most tennis fans call her "GOAT", kid.