Women's Best of the Present and All Time Greats - who is who?

[R. Schweikart]

According to many experts late 70s to mid 80s and then late 90s to late 00s was a very strong phase in WTA.

Graf's golden slam was won in a weak phase (where Martina-Evert were in early-mid 30s and were way past their prime) but the arrival of Seles made the early 90s extremely strong but again with her exit WTA became a bit weak until late 90s.

Mid-80s was "very strong"?

Navratilova won 13 of her 18 slams between December 1981 and September 1986. Evert was 27-31 years old then (had won 12 of her 18 slams before that).
Mandlikova, Shriver, Sukova, Kohde were Navi's other main opponents in those years.

17/18-year old Steffi was
A) 5-0 H2H (10-0 in sets) against Evert,
B) 4-0 H2H (8-0 in sets) against Mandlikova,
C) 4-0 H2H (8-1 in sets) against Shriver,
D) 6-0 H2H (12-2 in sets) against Sukova,
E) 4-0 H2H (8-0 in sets) against Kohde
in 1986-88.
That is 23-0 win/loss with 46-3 sets.
The clown era between the demise of Austin and the arrival of Steffi was maybe even worse than 2008-2021.

Early/mid-00s was "very strong"?
When Capriati won 3 slams, when Myskina, Kuznetsova, Pierce, baby Shriekapova won slams?
I think those "experts" were only nationalistic Yankees who only deem eras "strong" when US girls dominate - Evert/Navratilova until mid-80s and Williamses/Capriati in 00s.

No, the Steffi era is called the "Golden Age" for a reason.
In no other era were so many all-time great slam finals as in the late 80 and the 90s.
And the "Golden Girl" from Germany ruled that era.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Not just because I'm a fan, but because her record spells it out, Martina Navratilova the GOAT! I don't GAF about Serena, Graf, & Court with their limited resumes!

1- Navratilova w/ 167 Singles, 177 Doubles titles, 74 match winning streak, won 6 majors in a row, 9 Wimbledons, a "Box Set" completed at AO '03 w/ Leander Paz, taking her last major at '06 USO approaching 50 years old! NUFF said!

2) Serena - She could have been the GOAT but for limited play interest and injury! She literally came and went from the tour on whims!

3) Graf - Hard to put her anywhere near the top since we all know her resume's inflated due to Seles being stabbed in '93!
...

Steffi won her 21st slam at age 27 and then had a "reconstructive" knee surgery. Her doctors said it was to save her from having to limp for the rest of her life; tennis was not in the cards anymore. Plus Steffi had to survive two of the greatest criminal scandal ever in the history of the Federal Republic, caused by her idiotic dad.
Steffi's resume is deflated bigly; that she has only 22 slams is a cruel joke.
She was still improving at age 26/27 and would have dominated at least until age 35.

 

[Fiero425]

Steffi won her 21st slam at age 27 and then had a "reconstructive" knee surgery. Her doctors said it was to save her from having to limp for the rest of her life; tennis was not in the cards anymore. Plus Steffi had to survive two of the greatest criminal scandal ever in the history of the Federal Republic, caused by her idiotic dad.
Steffi's resume is deflated bigly; that she has only 22 slams is a cruel joke.
She was still improving at age 26/27 and would have dominated at least until age 35.

You're kidding right? Who cares about drama behind the scenes? Other players have injuries and despicable family members! That's not part of the record!

 

[Karma Tennis]

No, I don’t, that is what you do, as said in my previous post. That is why you had to change my quotes(how desperate of you by the way) when replying that very post of mine.

Because all of your arguments are based on your opinons rather than actual facts, we have to keep editing our replies to your posts becasue your posts keep changing as your opinions change.

That's why I've bee suggesting that you stick to facts. Facts remain consistent so you won't keep tripping up over them all the time. And facts are impossible to challenge unlike opinions.

Cheers.

 

[R. Schweikart]

You're kidding right? Who cares about drama behind the scenes? Other players have injuries and despicable family members! That's not part of the record!

So Seles not being stabbed is a valid alternative scenario but Steffi having a reasonable dad, no problems with blackmailers and not a destroyed knee is not?
That is lifting hypocrisy to a new level. Disgusting.

 

[R. Schweikart]

You're kidding right? Who cares about drama behind the scenes? ...

Many fanatics care about some behind-the-scenes "trauma" due to a stab wound.

 

[teotjunk]

Actually I don't understand why Chris Evert isn't usually featured more in the Goat Debate. She was ranked No.1 in the world five of the six years she was absent from the Australian Opens between 1975 and 1980 and she skipped 3 French Opens to play in an alternative tournament. So her actual tally would be in the range of Serena/Steffi's

 

[Steffi-forever]

Yes, 1992 was Seles's best year ever.
But only Steffi's 9th-best.
And yet Steffi beat Seles 6-2 6-1 in Wimbledon!

Imagine what would have happened if Steffi in her best year ever had met Seles in, say, her 6th-best ever or so in Wimbledon.
Oh wait, that happened! In 1989!!
And what was the result?
Steffi won 6-0 6-1.

And now imagine what would have happened if Steffi in her best year ever had met Seles in her 9th-best ever in Wimbledon.
It is no rocket science - it would have been a 6-0 6-0 (because worse is not possible).

Seles making the Wimbledon 92 final was a fluke.
She never deserved that, embarrassed the sport with going belly-up in about 50 minutes. That was supposed to be a #1 player???
In the last 30 years there have been only two slam finals with worse losses - Sanchez' 0-6 2-6 to Steffi at the AO 94 and Pierce's 1-6 1-6 to Henin at the FO 05.

That 1992 Wimbledon final is still the worst slam final lost for a #1 player at least in the OE!

 

[Steffi-forever]

Steffi from May 1990 to April 1993 (36 months):
215-24 win/loss (89.96 %).
23 tournament wins (50 %).
5 of 14 major finals (slams, YECs) reached (35.71 %).

Steffi from May 1993 to 1996 (44 months):
207-14 win/loss (93.67 %).
31 tournament wins (70.45 %).
14 of 17 major finals reached (82.35 %).

Yet another insane claim of yours debunked - easily.

From the season she became a top player (1986) to her last prime year (1996), Graf has:
740-51 win/loss - 93.55%

Seles two best years (1991-1992):
144-11 win/loss - 92.90%

So Graf has a better win/loss % with 11 seasons compared to Seles two best years.

Also here are the % of the tournaments won:

Graf 1986-1996: 67.10% (102/152)
Seles 1991-1992: 64.51% (20/31)

 

[Fiero425]

Actually I don't understand why Chris Evert isn't usually featured more in the Goat Debate. She was ranked No.1 in the world five of the six years, she was absent from the AO between 1975 and 1980 and she skipped 3 FO's to play in an alternative tournament. So her actual tally would be in the range of Serena/Steffi's

Same with most players; making a decision to go "down under" or not, taking T.O. to have a kid or 2, etc.! Technically Court could have put this away if not for birthing a couple kids! I can still see Court competing here in Chicago to play our yearly Virginia Slims event in '75! After a young Martina N. upset Evert in the SF, she had to deal with the latest comeback of the old lady! She was hurt in some way so she stood throughout the changeovers and taught us all, "I'm still here" at 33-34 yo! Court was the last player to defeat Evert on clay before her big run of 125 matches! Margaret defeated Evert at the FO in '73 so endurance and toughness was her forte before Evert! I personally gave all due deference to her greatness for that reason until the last few decades! Hogging those 11 AO (esp. pre-Open) without real comp, hurt her legacy IMO! I pass the baton onto Martina with 59 Open Era Majors to Court's 62! Martina gave it her all without real breaks which is a testament to her longevity and consistency!

 

[R. Schweikart]

Actually I don't understand why Chris Evert isn't usually featured more in the Goat Debate. She was ranked No.1 in the world five of the six years she was absent from the Australian Opens between 1975 and 1980 and she skipped 3 French Opens to play in an alternative tournament. So her actual tally would be in the range of Serena/Steffi's

Evert has "only" 18 slams.
Evert never won 3 or 4 slams within one calendar year (Steffi did it 5 times, even Serena did it 3 times).
Evert had a 0-13 losing streak against Navratilova in 1982-84.
Evert had a 0-8 losing streak against Steffi in 1986-89 (starting when she was 31 and Steffi only 16).
Evert had a 3-9 win/loss streak against Tracy Austin in 1979-81.

So for most of her career there was a player who was dominating her.

 

[R. Schweikart]

From the season she became a top player (1986) to her last prime year (1996), Graf has:
740-51 win/loss - 93.55%

Seles two best years (1991-1992):
144-11 win/loss - 92.90%

So Graf has a better win/loss % with 11 seasons compared to Seles two best years.

Also here are the % of the tournaments won:

Graf 1986-1996: 67.10% (102/152)
Seles 1991-1992: 64.51% (20/31)

This "Seles argument" used against Steffi was/is supposed to serve Navratilova and now Serena fans with their arguments why their fave should be called GOAT.
It is not about Seles.

 

[Karma Tennis]

I am enjoying this discussion. Very entertaining and the FACTS are most informative.

Only thing I can add is that I feel very fortunate to have lived during the period spanning Smith-Court to Serena.

Along the way, there have been some fantastic tennis players who have achieved some amazing sporting feats.

Smith-Court, BJK, Goolagong-Cawley, Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles, Hingis, Venus, Serena have kept the sport ticking over quite nicely.

 

[skaj]

The best 15/16-year-old players in the open era were:
1. Hingis
2. Austin
3. Seles
4. Jaeger
5. Graf
6. Capriati

All floundered after their teen years - except the great Steffi (a.k.a. GOAT).
OK, Capriati won 3 slams later as a 25/26-year-old and Seles won one at age 22.

But both were not made of the same stuff Steffi was.

What material are knives made of?

Anyway, fun trivia impressions, now let’s go back to the topic please - what about the 18/19 year old, you know, Monica’s age - before she was stabbed.

 

[skaj]

You mean your demented theory that Seles scared Steffi so much in spring 1990 that she lost again and again to Sabatini and Novotna after that - but usually beat Seles?

Say, what went wrong with you as a kid?
Did your mum accidentaly let you fall on your head too often?

I mean what I wrote, and what you replied to with that stat – Graf was better in the period mentioned because there was no prime Monica around.

So you should ask yourself those questions.

 

[skaj]

And yet Steffi had a bigger lead in the WTA rankings over Seles at the end of 1990 than Seles ever had in 1991-93.
Steffi was still ahead by 278 to 203 average points (75 pts.).
Seles's maximum lead later was 58 pts. (end of 1991).; right before the stabbing in April 1993 it were only 21 pts.

BTW, Sanchez was 2-1 in slam finals against Steffi in 1989-1994. She beat Steffi in two slam finals in 1989 and 1994. And those were not Steffi slump years.
Same with Navratilova, she was 2-1 in slam finals in 1987. One of Steffi's best years ever.
Seles was only able to beat Steffi in slam finals during Steffi's slump.

Yes, cause in 1990 a 16 year old Seles was prime but not peak, won only one slam. Any other obvious thing I need to explain to you?

And your Steffi's “slump” that coincidentally ends with Monica’s stabbing has already been exposed in this very thread, for those people who believe in such nonsense(sorry, for that person who believes such nonsense).

 

[R. Schweikart]

What material are knives made of?

Anyway, fun trivia impressions, now let’s go back to the topic please - what about the 18/19 year old, you know, Monica’s age - before she was stabbed.

Tracy Austin won her last slam at age 18.
Martina Hingis won her last slam at age 18.
Andrea Jaeger reached her last slam final at 18.
Steffi Graf won the Golden Slam at 19 and became the GOAT.

Monica Seles was no Steffi, she was an Austin/Hingis/Jaeger type.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Yes, cause in 1990 a 16 year old Seles was prime but not peak, won only one slam. Any other obvious thing I need to explain to you?
...

Yes, and Steffi was not peak but prime in 1991/92 (even though she dominated Seles in those two years).

...
And your Steffi's “slump” that coincidentally ends with Monica’s stabbing has already been exposed in this very thread, for those people who believe in such nonsense(sorry, for that person who believes such nonsense).

And your Seles peak that coincidently starts with the Graf Blackmail Scandal.
And how Seles's trauma coincidently ended in August 1995 when the Graf Tax Scandal started.
Well, this time Seles miscalculated. She hoped that she would profit again from Steffi's woes. And was wrong!

 

[Steffi-forever]

Actually I don't understand why Chris Evert isn't usually featured more in the Goat Debate. She was ranked No.1 in the world five of the six years she was absent from the Australian Opens between 1975 and 1980 and she skipped 3 French Opens to play in an alternative tournament. So her actual tally would be in the range of Serena/Steffi's

Same with most players; making a decision to go "down under" or not, taking T.O. to have a kid or 2, etc.! Technically Court could have put this away if not for birthing a couple kids! I can still see Court competing here in Chicago to play our yearly Virginia Slims event in '75! After a young Martina N. upset Evert in the SF, she had to deal with the latest comeback of the old lady! She was hurt in some way so she stood throughout the changeovers and taught us all, "I'm still here" at 33-34 yo! Court was the last player to defeat Evert on clay before her big run of 125 matches! Margaret defeated Evert at the FO in '73 so endurance and toughness was her forte before Evert! I personally gave all due deference to her greatness for that reason until the last few decades! Hogging those 11 AO (esp. pre-Open) without real comp, hurt her legacy IMO! I pass the baton onto Martina with 59 Open Era Majors to Court's 62! Martina gave it her all without real breaks which is a testament to her longevity and consistency!

Fortunately she skipped those 3 French Opens in the mid-late 70's, as there were no dept on clay at that time and would have overachieved.

Check the seeds of those 64 and 128 players draws for some of the FO titles of Evert:
1974:
1. Chris Evert
2. Virginia Wade
3. Olga Morozova
4. Helga Masthoff
5. Pat Pretorius Walkden
6. Martina Navratilova
7. Kazuko Sawamatsu
8. Julie Heldman
1975:
1. Chris Evert
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Olga Morozova
4. Julie Heldman
5. Helga Masthoff
6. Gail Chanfreau
7. Raquel Giscafré
8. Janet Newberry
1979:
1. Chris Evert
2. Virginia Wade
3. Dianne Fromholtz
4. Wendy Turnbull
5. Virginia Ruzici
6. Sue Barker
7. Regina Maršíková
8. Betty Stöve
1980:
1. Chris Evert
2. Billie Jean King
3. Wendy Turnbull
4. Virginia Wade
5. Dianne Fromholtz
6. Kathy Jordan
7. Hana Mandlíková
8. Virginia Ruzici

The field was basically several serve and volley players who had clay as their worst surface by far, some FO winners from the void 1976-1978 years, and Mandlikova who was a great clay opponent in 1980.
To note:
In 1975, the finalist Navratilova was only on her third year on tour and was nowere near her best. Here was her road to reach the final: Araujo, Fuchs, Teeguarden, Ganz and Newberry.
In 1980, the second seed Billie Jean King was 36.5 yo at that time and had clay as her worst surface (she only past the SF at the FO only one time in her career and has around only 10 clay titles in her career out of 120+)

I think any All-Time Great claycourter would have been able to pull off the clay streak of Evert if they had that weak clay field of hers.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Fortunately she skipped those 3 French Opens in the mid-late 70's, as there were no dept on clay at that time and would have overachieved.

Check the seeds of those 64 and 128 players draws for some of the FO titles of Evert:
1974:
1. Chris Evert
2. Virginia Wade
3. Olga Morozova
4. Helga Masthoff
5. Pat Pretorius Walkden
6. Martina Navratilova
7. Kazuko Sawamatsu
8. Julie Heldman
1975:
1. Chris Evert
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Olga Morozova
4. Julie Heldman
5. Helga Masthoff
6. Gail Chanfreau
7. Raquel Giscafré
8. Janet Newberry
1979:
1. Chris Evert
2. Virginia Wade
3. Dianne Fromholtz
4. Wendy Turnbull
5. Virginia Ruzici
6. Sue Barker
7. Regina Maršíková
8. Betty Stöve
1980:
1. Chris Evert
2. Billie Jean King
3. Wendy Turnbull
4. Virginia Wade
5. Dianne Fromholtz
6. Kathy Jordan
7. Hana Mandlíková
8. Virginia Ruzici

The field was basically several serve and volley players who had clay as their worst surface by far, some FO winners from the void 1976-1978 years, and Mandlikova who was a great clay opponent in 1980.
To note:
In 1975, the finalist Navratilova was only on her third year on tour and was nowere near her best. Here was her road to reach the final: Araujo, Fuchs, Teeguarden, Ganz and Newberry.
In 1980, the second seed Billie Jean King was 36.5 yo at that time and had clay as her worst surface (she only past the SF at the FO only one time in her career and has around only 10 clay titles in her career out of 120+)

I think any All-Time Great claycourter would have been able to pull off the clay streak of Evert if they had that weak clay field of hers.

Imagine Arantxa Sanchez being born 15 years earlier!
She would have won 7 or more FOs!

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Even Agassi has won all 4 slams but Sampras never won, such claims are not of much importance.

More nonsense. Winning the Grand Slam is not one of each major strung across the years of a career. Either one has the ability to show concentrated dominance in the accepted frame of the calendar year, or they do not. Agassi, Sampras and Navratilova were incapable of winning the Grand Slam, thus they were never GOAT players.

 

[skaj]

Tracy Austin won her last slam at age 18.
Martina Hingis won her last slam at age 18.
Andrea Jaeger reached her last slam final at 18.
Steffi Graf won the Golden Slam at 19 and became the GOAT.

Monica Seles was no Steffi, she was an Austin/Hingis/Jaeger type.

To refresh your memory(from only a few posts ago) – Nadal won Roland Garros at 19 and became “the GOAT”(if Graf, whose main rival was stabbed at the age of 19 can be “the GOAT”, so can Nadal who had not one but two of the toughest players ever as his main competitors; at least he has an equal number of slams as other contenders, not less).

Monica Seles was no Graf, that's true, she was better than her - that’s why she dominated Steffi at that very age of 19.

 

[skaj]

Yes, and Steffi was not peak but prime in 1991/92 (even though she dominated Seles in those two years).




And your Seles peak that coincidently starts with the Graf Blackmail Scandal.
And how Seles's trauma coincidently ended in August 1995 when the Graf Tax Scandal started.
Well, this time Seles miscalculated. She hoped that she would profit again from Steffi's woes. And was wrong!

Yes, I remember that now, from earlier in this thread – Graf did not peak again until right after the stabbing! Oh, I keep forgetting that, as much as you keep repeating it, don’t know why...

And I even said it the very post you replied to here, that Monica’s peak did not start in that period, so don’t fabricate, you’ve done that too many times already. Not to mention that Seles announced her comeback and even played a warm-up exhibition before the Peter Graf’s arrest for taxes.

So you are laughing at your own insane ideas, wrong facts and poor logic, yet again.

 

[Steffi-forever]

Yes, of course. If you need your memory refreshed once again, scroll up. She did reach almost all, 3 out of 4 major finals(lost 2 to Monica) and won the last 3/4 matches against both Novotna and Sabatini before the stabbing as well.

Graf did not “dominate” Seles in her peak years. In 1991 she won two non-slam matches against 17 year old Seles. In 1992 they played 2 slam finals, each won one. In 1993 she lost the one match they played. I guess that’s what you call “a slow decline” of Monica.

Who needs professional help again?

Seles two best years are 1991-1992 and Graf won 3 of their 4 meetings. These two seasons are two of the worst years of Graf’s prime (1987-1996).

The game of Graf deteriorated in the early 90s and made her lost a lot of confidence in the result of the blackmailed scandal. That, and because of some injuries, sickness and burnout, definitely helped Seles to gain an extra 3-4 slams.

The 1990 and 1991 FO were some of Graf worst tennis on clay. She played the 1991 US Open with a severe shoulder injury, and missed the 1992 Australian Open because of a disease. After the 10-8 lost at the 1992 FO, she won Wimbledon and played 11 matches on clay at the Fed Cup and at the Olympics, all that over a month! Obviously she didn’t have a proper decoturf preparation and she had a very poor US Open (In comparaison, in 1993 she won both the San Diego and Toronto tournaments and killed it at the US Open with an amazing match vs Sabatini and an awesome performance in the final).

Anyhow Graf was improving and in the ascendant in the spring 1993. Many tennis commentators including Bud Collins, Mary Carrillo, Chris Evert, and some European, were saying that Graf was in a very good position to get back at #1.

 

[R. Schweikart]

To refresh your memory(from only a few posts ago) – Nadal won Roland Garros at 19 and became “the GOAT”(if Graf, whose main rival was stabbed at the age of 19 can be “the GOAT”, so can Nadal who had not one but two of the toughest players ever as his main competitors; at least he has an equal number of slams as other contenders, not less).

Monica Seles was no Graf, that's true, she was better than her - that’s why she dominated Steffi at that very age of 19.

Nadal and Steffi were athletes, have and had the perfect male and female bodies.
Seles never was an athlete which is my point.

17/19-year-old peak Seles had a losing record even against a slumping Steffi.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Yes, of course. If you need your memory refreshed once again, scroll up. She did reach almost all, 3 out of 4 major finals(lost 2 to Monica) and won the last 3/4 matches against both Novotna and Sabatini before the stabbing as well.

Graf did not “dominate” Seles in her peak years. In 1991 she won two non-slam matches against 17 year old Seles. In 1992 they played 2 slam finals, each won one. In 1993 she lost the one match they played. I guess that’s what you call “a slow decline” of Monica.

Who needs professional help again?

In 1990 Seles was 2-0 win/loss against Steffi with 4-0 in sets.
In 1992/93 Seles was only 2-1 win/loss against her with 4-4 in sets.

Here are their winning percentages again in the 24 months before the stabbing:

Seles from May 1991 to April 1992: 93.8 %
Steffi from May 1991 to April 1992: 90.9 %

Seles from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.1 %
Steffi from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.0 %

And here is Steffi from May 1993 to April 1994: 96.4 %

Seles down from 93.8 % over 92.1 % to xx.x %?
Steffi up from 90.9 % over 92.0 % to 96.4 %!

The trend was clear, even for the Skajs of this world to see.

 

[Lorenn]

23 slams is more than 22
Also half of those 22 were aided by Seles being removed for 3 good years.
So IMO you should not be "sure" about Graf being ahead of Serena who is a bonafide champ that won slams from 1999 till the end of the 2010s decade, her longevity in this era is unparalleled

It gets complex when you start factor in what if...Andy Murray and his Hip... should that factor into Novaks numbers? Weeks at number 1 etc. Would Seles have impacted Serena as well?

Do we factor in Doubles?
Do we factor in how much medical science has improved at keep player playing?
Do we factor in players being banned or not competing at events during their prime?

I would have a hard time picking the top few as they are all just so amazingly good.

 

[skaj]

Nadal and Steffi were athletes, have and had the perfect male and female bodies.
Seles never was an athlete which is my point.

17/19-year-old peak Seles had a losing record even against a slumping Steffi.

Yet, with that horrible body of hers, she was winning against Graf in important matches. (She lost only one, on the surface where she had played like 3 tournaments professionally, and in a match where she was told not to grunt.)
The reason is mentality, that is the point, not the body. That sets Nadal and Seles apart from most players in tennis history, that sets them apart from other teen successes as well.

And yes, Graf was “slumping” back then, and suddenly stopped slumping - right after the stabbing! You keep repeating your nonsense as if we will believe it if you repeat it a certain amount of times. Maybe that works when you do it to yourself, but it does not work on others, so I suggest you give up.

 

[skaj]

In 1990 Seles was 2-0 win/loss against Steffi with 4-0 in sets.
In 1992/93 Seles was only 2-1 win/loss against her with 4-4 in sets.

Here are their winning percentages again in the 24 months before the stabbing:

Seles from May 1991 to April 1992: 93.8 %
Steffi from May 1991 to April 1992: 90.9 %

Seles from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.1 %
Steffi from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.0 %

And here is Steffi from May 1993 to April 1994: 96.4 %

Seles down from 93.8 % over 92.1 % to xx.x %?
Steffi up from 90.9 % over 92.0 % to 96.4 %!

The trend was clear, even for the Skajs of this world to see.

Again, you’re repeating the same nonsense from before, that has been explained to you(even though it is such an obvious nonsense that it does not need explanation). The silly winning percentages interpretation of yours has been explained already in this very thread(see post #278).

 

[R. Schweikart]

Yet, with that horrible body of hers, she was winning against Graf in important matches. ....

Because Steffi was slumping in 1990/92:
1-7 win/loss against Sabatini from November 1990 to April 1992 (career: 29-11)
2-3 win/loss against Novotna from January 1991 to February 1992 (career: 28-4)

And yes, Graf was “slumping” back then, and suddenly stopped slumping - right after the stabbing! ....

The numbers prove that Steffi was already improving 92/93 compared to 91/92.
And improved more and more:

Winning percentages
Seles from May 1991 to April 1992: 93.8 %
Seles from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.1 % (which is minus 1.7 % = downward trend)

Steffi from May 1991 to April 1992: 90.9 %
Steffi from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.0 % (which is plus 1.1 % = upward trend)
Steffi from May 1993 to April 1994: 96.4 % (which is another massive plus of 4.4 % = more upward trend)

WTA ranking points
End of 1991: Seles 278 - Steffi 220 (57 point lead)
April 1993: Seles 321 - Steffi 300 (21 point lead = narrowing of Seles's lead)
Dezember 1993: Steffi 409

Could Seles have improved as well, being able to hold Steffi fast pace?
Possible.
But not very probable.
Seles was no Steffi. She was closer to Tracy Austin or Martina Hingis.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Yet, you yourself did it.

And now you are fabricating, that I am “creating a whole tennis career for Seles that she never had”. That does not exist in this thread nor anywhere else.

Plus you are connecting me with Monica Seles intimately, just because I pointed out to some facts you don’t seem to like here. How bizarre...

As I said ... no need to falsify your posts because most of us here can read them and see they are false enough as they are.

Keep Calm and Stick to the facts!

 

[skaj]

Because Steffi was slumping in 1990/92:
1-7 win/loss against Sabatini from November 1990 to April 1992 (career: 29-11)
2-3 win/loss against Novotna from January 1991 to February 1992 (career: 28-4)




The numbers prove that Steffi was already improving 92/93 compared to 91/92.
And improved more and more:

Winning percentages
Seles from May 1991 to April 1992: 93.8 %
Seles from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.1 % (which is minus 1.7 % = downward trend)

Steffi from May 1991 to April 1992: 90.9 %
Steffi from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.0 % (which is plus 1.1 % = upward trend)
Steffi from May 1993 to April 1994: 96.4 % (which is another massive plus of 4.4 % = more upward trend)

WTA ranking points
End of 1991: Seles 278 - Steffi 220 (57 point lead)
April 1993: Seles 321 - Steffi 300 (21 point lead = narrowing of Seles's lead)
Dezember 1993: Steffi 409

Could Seles have improved as well, being able to hold Steffi fast pace?
Possible.
But not very probable.
Seles was no Steffi. She was closer to Tracy Austin or Martina Hingis.

For percentages, “slumping” and repeating nonsense see posts #335, #336 #278, #203, among others.

 

[skaj]

As I said ... no need to falsify your posts because most of us here can read them and see they are false enough as they are.

Keep Calm and Stick to the facts!

Yet you did it.

Good that you are giving yourself support with that KLM thing though.
I on the other hand am calm and I stick to facts. I guess that’s what bothers you here so that’s why you have to fabricate and change my quotes.

 

[thrust]

Possible,but even keeping aside Court and Wills (which is a sacrilege to their incredible careers) Steffi has more years as #1 than any of the above and only one Slam short of Serena.

Graf had the weakest competition once Seles was stabbed, She is a ATG, for sure, but her stats are inflated due to weak competition. As for Court at the AO, she beat Maria Bueno to win two of her titles, BJk also twice and peak Goolagong twice. Yes there is more competition today in all slams, still though, the top players have weak competition for the first few rounds.

 

[R. Schweikart]

For percentages, “slumping” and repeating nonsense see posts #335, #336 #278, #203, among others.

Could you elaborate a little bit more why Steffi had these win/loss stats:

1) Steffi from May 1988 to April 1989: 97.5 % (2 losses)
2) Steffi from May 1989 to April 1990: 98.7 % (1 loss)
3) Steffi from May 1990 to April 1991: 87.7 % (10 losses, 2 against Seles)
4) Steffi from May 1991 to April 1992: 90.9 % (6 losses)
5) Steffi from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.0 % (8 losses, 2 against Seles)
6) Steffi from May 1993 to April 1994: 96.4 % (2 losses)

In 1) plus 5) plus 6) only 5 losses.
In 2) plus 3) plus 4) a staggering 24 losses (with only 4 against Seles). Almost 5 times as much as in the other time frames.

It is a fact that Steffi slumped badly for almost three years (but was already improving again in 92/93). No one except Seles fanatics deny that.
So it is no rocket science to conclude that the second-best player mopped up the major tournaments.

And it is no rocket science either to see that Seles would have had no chance against a resurgent Steffi. The stabbing is just a convenient excuse from Seles fanatics like you (and Serenistas who have to put Steffi down in order to have a claim for GOATness).

 

[R. Schweikart]

Speaking of embarrassment: no, I mean the post #278 there is no mention of Sabatini and Novotna in that post.

The Novotna/Sabatini percentages(plus Graf percentages) are explained in the post #328.

The fact that Seles was the player who shook Graf's confidence, is not "baseless", it's a fact. ....

You mean the "shock" in spring 1990 with Seles beating Steffi twice?
The shock was so "massive" that Steffi won 3 of the next 4 matches against Seles with her only loss being the FO 92 final with 2-6 6-3 8-10.
And that despite being in a massive slump (with 10 losses against Sabatini/Novotna).

 

[R. Schweikart]

Graf had the weakest competition once Seles was stabbed, She is a ATG, for sure, but her stats are inflated due to weak competition. As for Court at the AO, she beat Maria Bueno to win two of her titles, BJk also twice and peak Goolagong twice. Yes there is more competition today in all slams, still though, the top players have weak competition for the first few rounds.

Seles was only away for two years and came back as good as ever until November 1996.
From then on both Seles's and Steffi's career took a nose-dive due to injuries.

In her last 6 years Steffi had to cope with one of the greatest clay courters ever (Sanchez), with a returning Seles, with peak Hingis and peak Davenport, with Venus in one of her best years ever and with baby Serena.
Serena in her last 6 successful years (2011-16) had to compete with Radwanska, Wozniacki, Azarenka, Sharapova, Kerber.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Graf had the weakest competition once Seles was stabbed, She is a ATG, for sure, but her stats are inflated due to weak competition. As for Court at the AO, she beat Maria Bueno to win two of her titles, BJk also twice and peak Goolagong twice. Yes there is more competition today in all slams, still though, the top players have weak competition for the first few rounds.

Without Graf, Seles, Hingis the 1990s would have been the most competitive era ever.

 

[Steffi-forever]

Graf had the weakest competition once Seles was stabbed, She is a ATG, for sure, but her stats are inflated due to weak competition. As for Court at the AO, she beat Maria Bueno to win two of her titles, BJk also twice and peak Goolagong twice. Yes there is more competition today in all slams, still though, the top players have weak competition for the first few rounds.

Evert had the weakest clay competition in the 70s. With a normal clay field, she would be closer to Billie Jean King slam count. At least Graf had one or two ATG claycourter to play vs throughout her career.

Navratilova big competition in early-mid 80s was Evert, a player who started her prime in the early 70s! Most tournaments in the early-mid 80s were a depleted fields, sometimes 60-75% of American were featured in the draws. Navratilova had a clear path with Evert on her 12-15th prime years, Austin gone, inconsistent Mandlikova. The fact that Navratilova had only 3 slams at 25 yo is pretty cogent.

If anything, it is Evert and Navratilova who had a inflated résumés.

 

[skaj]

Could you elaborate a little bit more why Steffi had these win/loss stats:

1) Steffi from May 1988 to April 1989: 97.5 % (2 losses)
2) Steffi from May 1989 to April 1990: 98.7 % (1 loss)
3) Steffi from May 1990 to April 1991: 87.7 % (10 losses, 2 against Seles)
4) Steffi from May 1991 to April 1992: 90.9 % (6 losses)
5) Steffi from May 1992 to April 1993: 92.0 % (8 losses, 2 against Seles)
6) Steffi from May 1993 to April 1994: 96.4 % (2 losses)

In 1) plus 5) plus 6) only 5 losses.
In 2) plus 3) plus 4) a staggering 24 losses (with only 4 against Seles). Almost 5 times as much as in the other time frames.

It is a fact that Steffi slumped badly for almost three years (but was already improving again in 92/93). No one except Seles fanatics deny that.
So it is no rocket science to conclude that the second-best player mopped up the major tournaments.

And it is no rocket science either to see that Seles would have had no chance against a resurgent Steffi. The stabbing is just a convenient excuse from Seles fanatics like you (and Serenistas who have to put Steffi down in order to have a claim for GOATness).

There's nothing to eleborate, just to repeat. Instead of me doing that, you go back and read what is already written(and even that was unnecessary for a person with healthy reasoning).

In short
– in 1990 the rise of Seles happened.
- in 1993 the stabbing of Seles happened.

And you still can't make the connection with the percentages you presented. Yes, no need for rocket science at all.

 

[R. Schweikart]

There's nothing to eleborate, just to repeat. Instead of me doing that, you go back and read what is already written(and even that was unnecessary for a person with healthy reasoning).

In short
– in 1990 the rise of Seles happened.
- in 1993 the stabbing of Seles happened.

And you still can't make the connection with the percentages you presented. Yes, no need for rocket science at all.

Steffi losses against players who are not Monica Seles
1) May 1988 to April 1990 plus May 1993 to April 1994 (= 36 months): 20
2) May 1990 to April 1993 (= 36 months): 5

Period 1) started with 2 Steffi losses to Seles in spring 1990 (the first few weeks of the Graf blackmail scandal).
Steffi had 22 more losses in the next 35 months - only 9 % of them against Seles.
But only 5 losses in period 2).

Can there be a more clear-cut proof that Steffi's slump was the cause and Seles's success the effect?
To suggest that Seles's success was the cause and Steffi's slump the effect is moronic.

 

[R. Schweikart]

You are still laughing at yourself I see: she won 1 out of their 3 next grand slam matches, before the stabbing. And started losing to other players, it was explained to you why, so she didn't even get to reach all the slam finals where Monica was waiting for her to beat her.

Exactly, she started losing to other players.
Which she had almost never done before the blackmail scandal.
And which she didn't do either later in 1993-96.

Exactly, in the time she was losing a lot to other players she played a whopping three more slam matches against Seles:
2-6 6-3 8-10 loss at the FO 92 (clay)
6-2 6-1 win in Wimbledon 92 (grass)
6-4 3-6 2-6 loss at the AO 93 (slow HC)

1-2 in matches, 4-4 in sets, 39-38 in games, 260-255 on points. Can a three-match head-to-head to be any closer?
That in a time when she was losing many matches against players she usually beat (Sabatini, Novotna, Navatilova).

Steffi's slump was the cause for Seles's success.
Not the other way round.

 

[skaj]

Steffi losses against players who are not Monica Seles
1) May 1988 to April 1990 plus May 1993 to April 1994 (= 36 months): 20
2) May 1990 to April 1993 (= 36 months): 5

Period 1) started with 2 Steffi losses to Seles in spring 1990 (the first few weeks of the Graf blackmail scandal).
Steffi had 22 more losses in the next 35 months - only 9 % of them against Seles.
But only 5 losses in period 2).

Can there be a more clear-cut proof that Steffi's slump was the cause and Seles's success the effect?
To suggest that Seles's success was the cause and Steffi's slump the effect is moronic.

So she was losing to only 5 other players in a period when she was “slumping”, but she was losing to as many as 20 players when she was not?

So in the first weeks of her “slumping” which was caused by a sex scandal and lasted for 3 years(ending coincidentally with the stabbing to Seles) she beats all the other players, gets to the finals and loses to - Seles.

You do the math(again).

 

[skaj]

Exactly, she started losing to other players.
Which she had almost never done before the blackmail scandal.
And which she didn't do either later in 1993-96.

Exactly, in the time she was losing a lot to other players she played a whopping three more slam matches against Seles:
2-6 6-3 8-10 loss at the FO 92 (clay)
6-2 6-1 win in Wimbledon 92 (grass)
6-4 3-6 2-6 loss at the AO 93 (slow HC)

1-2 in matches, 4-4 in sets, 39-38 in games, 260-255 on points. Can a three-match head-to-head to be any closer?
That in a time when she was losing many matches against players she usually beat (Sabatini, Novotna, Navatilova).

Steffi's slump was the cause for Seles's success.
Not the other way round.

To continue from the previous post.

Exactly, she started losing to other players, which she had almost never done before Seles beat her, shook her confidence, and showed to other players Graf is not invincible.

 

[R. Schweikart]

Yes, I do. Good that you are finally looking for someone who can explain to you what it is.

Numbers are facts.
For instance the numbers I am hitting you left and right on your cheeks again and again.

Not "I think Steffi was so shocked by her two losses in spring 1990 to 16-year-old Seles that she lost 20 matches to other players in the next 3 years but went 3-2 win/loss against a 17/19-year-old Seles, I really believe that, I swear".
That is just dumb fanboi prattle.

 

[skaj]

So Steffi confidence was so shaken that she was 2-8 win/loss against Sabatini and 3-3 win/loss against Novotna but 3-2 against Seles until May 1992?
Yeah, that "fact" sounds very convincing.....

That’s not a fact that’s an explanation of the facts. Mine is slightly different(you can find it if you scroll up).It's a real one, unlike your desperate “Graf was so disturbed by the sex scandal of her father, that in the first weeks of it she wins against all the other players but Seles who beats her for the first time, and then after that it was the scandal which made her confidence go down – for the next 3 years, ending, of course with the Seles stabbing.”

 

[skaj]

So there are two competing "reasons":
1) Steffi was so shocked by 2 losses in May/June 1990 to 16-year-old Seles that she started to lose to other players, was still far ahead in the WTA rankings in December 1990 (far more ahead than Seles ever was in 1991/93), continued to lose in 1991 but beat 17-year-old Seles in 2 of 2 matches, lost more matches to other players until spring 1992.
2) A blackmail/sex scandal that started 3 days before Steffi's first loss to Seles in May 1990 and continued by the Graf family being drawn through the gutter by the tabloid press with the help of the blackmailers until spring 1992, a scandal that almost made Steffi retire in February 1991 (when she still was #1).

Wow, that is so difficult to decide....


You are a typical Seles fan.
Low IQ and vicious.

1) explained already in numerous posts in this very thread, for example #318 #278 #328...

2) explained in numerous posts in this very thread, for example #318 #335 #203 #274...

Please stop with just repeating the same ridiculous quasi-arguments(you’re telling others that they have a low IQ...), already exposed here, in cycles, as if we have forgotten them. They are so ridiculous, that they are very hard to forget. I suggest you go to at least another thread with those, or back to YouTube and other platforms and repeat nonsense that has already been explain to you there.

 

[R. Schweikart]

1) explained already in numerous posts in this very thread, for example #318 #278 #328...

2) explained in numerous posts in this very thread, for example #318 #335 #203 #274...

Please stop with just repeating the same ridiculous quasi-arguments(you’re telling others that they have a low IQ...), already exposed here, in cycles, as if we have forgotten them. They are so ridiculous, that they are very hard to forget. I suggest you go to at least another thread with those, or back to YouTube and other platforms and repeat nonsense that has already been explain to you there.

I fully agree with posts #318 and #335. At least a little bit common ground now.

#318 says:
"Yes, and Steffi was not peak but prime in 1991/92 (even though she dominated Seles in those two years). ...
And your Seles peak that coincidently starts with the Graf Blackmail Scandal.
And how Seles's trauma coincidently ended in August 1995 when the Graf Tax Scandal started.
Well, this time Seles miscalculated. She hoped that she would profit again from Steffi's woes. And was wrong!

#335 is even better:
"...
t is a fact that Steffi slumped badly for almost three years (but was already improving again in 92/93). No one except Seles fanatics deny that.
So it is no rocket science to conclude that the second-best player mopped up the major tournaments.
And it is no rocket science either to see that Seles would have had no chance against a resurgent Steffi. The stabbing is just a convenient excuse from Seles fanatics like you (and Serenistas who have to put Steffi down in order to have a claim for GOATness)."


At last a Seles fans who gets reasonable now and then!
So why keep on quarreling?

 

[R. Schweikart]

That’s not a fact that’s an explanation of the facts. Mine is slightly different(you can find it if you scroll up).It's a real one, unlike your desperate “Graf was so disturbed by the sex scandal of her father, that in the first weeks of it she wins against all the other players but Seles who beats her for the first time, and then after that it was the scandal which made her confidence go down – for the next 3 years, ending, of course with the Seles stabbing.”

So do you now agree or not with this?
"So Steffi confidence was so shaken that she was 2-8 win/loss against Sabatini and 3-3 win/loss against Novotna but 3-2 against Seles until May 1992?"

So Steffi had the best results and played quite good tennis against the player who caused her "shock" but had terrible results and played sh*t against lesser players?
That is your take, yes?
Wouldn't it be more probable for Steffi to bomb against Seles and continue to beat the others?
I am just asking for my 5-year-old daughter....

 

[skaj]

I fully agree with posts #318 and #335. At least a little bit common ground now.

#318 says:
"Yes, and Steffi was not peak but prime in 1991/92 (even though she dominated Seles in those two years). ...
And your Seles peak that coincidently starts with the Graf Blackmail Scandal.
And how Seles's trauma coincidently ended in August 1995 when the Graf Tax Scandal started.
Well, this time Seles miscalculated. She hoped that she would profit again from Steffi's woes. And was wrong!

#335 is even better:
"...
t is a fact that Steffi slumped badly for almost three years (but was already improving again in 92/93). No one except Seles fanatics deny that.
So it is no rocket science to conclude that the second-best player mopped up the major tournaments.
And it is no rocket science either to see that Seles would have had no chance against a resurgent Steffi. The stabbing is just a convenient excuse from Seles fanatics like you (and Serenistas who have to put Steffi down in order to have a claim for GOATness)."


At last a Seles fans who gets reasonable now and then!
So why keep on quarreling?

If you fully agree, why did you disagree with it previously, and more importantly why are you only partially quoting them here? (This is a rhetorical question, in case you think you should answer it...).