Working on Pace (Video)

DavaiMarat

Professional
Sorry guys no girlfriend this time,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9kwiHfPdTo

Here is a little video from a training session I had with a lvl 3 coach working on adding more pace to my groundies. Enjoy.

I've tried to take a lot of the feedback from KenC, Jrod, LeeD, smoothtennis and whomever else and apply it.

Feedback is welcome. Re-working the strokes is tough I had my share of shanks that session.

Cheers,

Mike
 
Your stance is a bit too rigid. Loosen that up a bit. You also have too much body rotation on your follow-through. This will become apparent in match play. Also, work on your wrist snap to help with adding pace. If you notice the primary difference in the stroke between a good player and a recreational player, it is the wrist snap.

So, in short: 1. relax, 2. less body rotation, and 3. more wrist snap.

Your stroke looks good. You just need to loosen up. My suggestion would be to start to spend your time in matches, as hitting balls from a coach won't do much for your game. Get out and hit and play as many matches as you can.

Hope this helps. :)
 
Wow, your backhand is really coming around, nice.
Seems you are very much hitting much faster balls, but your forehand flies high and long quite often.
I know this might sound like plasphemy to some, but I find, the faster I hit the ball, the more need for closed stances and turned shoulders.
Your backhand closes well.
Seems your forehands are still hit with the same body positioning as when you were hitting with G/F, so now the faster swing goes higher. Of course, more turnover WW finish, but that can slow down the ball. A more extreme grip, but you don't need more grips.
So to achieve a flatter racketface, maybe more shoulder turn, stay turned.
 
Man it does look like I have something stuck up my arse doesn't it? Hmmmmm how to stay loose but accelerate. Yeah I've been working on my flexibility lately as well hopefully that will help me get a little more of that elastic acceleration federer has. Thanks for the tips guys.
 
From my eyes the rigidity on your FH has to do with two things. 1, being out of balance - appears as if you lean back slightly from the hips. 2 mistiming of kinetic chain between torso and upper arm - the two are often rigidly linked (simultaneous movement) on your FHs, instead think torso then upper arm (sequential movement).

2BHs are very efficient, relaxed and solid, looks like you can hit them all day long.
 
From my eyes the rigidity on your FH has to do with two things. 1, being out of balance - appears as if you lean back slightly from the hips. 2 mistiming of kinetic chain between torso and upper arm - the two are often rigidly linked (simultaneous movement) on your FHs, instead think torso then upper arm (sequential movement).

2BHs are very efficient, relaxed and solid, looks like you can hit them all day long.

Ah so the hips open then the torso then the arm. Man I think I'm going to hurt myself lol. Something to try. Thanks for the tip pro.

YEah someone above you mentioned I over rotated or over torqued that probably has something to do with me being off balanced. I'm going to try to stop my torso from torquing over so violently.
 
I think you have a pretty good form, from preparation to follow-through. The only problem that I see is that you are trying to muscle the ball. I understand that you were trying to practice "pace" but a good solid strong groundies come from a very loose swing form. I bet many of the balls that you hit were out, that's because your body wasn't free enough. Racquet speed is not about the muscle, it's actulally the other way. The more you are loose, the more pace and power.
Otherwise your swing looks great!
 
Just watched the rest of the clip - your backhand.
Two things that I see is 1) you need more knee bend - especially in twohanded backhand knee bend is the key. More knee bend, the more stable stroke. 2) relax on your swing, this relates to my first reply. Your knee is actully bent pretty good as you prepare but your knee stiffs as you make contact, which basically means that you are swinging to hard (agian muscling the ball). Hope this helps!
 
Just watched the rest of the clip - your backhand.
Two things that I see is 1) you need more knee bend - especially in twohanded backhand knee bend is the key. More knee bend, the more stable stroke. 2) relax on your swing, this relates to my first reply. Your knee is actully bent pretty good as you prepare but your knee stiffs as you make contact, which basically means that you are swinging to hard (agian muscling the ball). Hope this helps!

Thanks for the tip.
 
While Dave has an excellent 4.5 backhand, and maybe a less than consistent 4.0 forehand, the combination of lack of volley, first serve, and mainly movement, has him stuck around high 3.5's right now. His strokes are better, but unless you can hit winners from most anywhere on the court, movement is the single most important factor to getting above that mythical 4.0 level.
And there's more than one kind of movement. Short sprint, longer duration endurance, and also HOW you move that first step, besides getting to the ball in ball striking position.
Movement is not a natural phenomenum, but most soccer, football, basketball, and some baseball players seem to do quite well.
 
one thing i noticed on your forehand, in your forward stroke to follow through, you are raising your shoulder too high on your hitting arm.. watch the pro's.. for the most part, they have fairly level shoulders on regular hitting zone balls
 
While Dave has an excellent 4.5 backhand, and maybe a less than consistent 4.0 forehand, the combination of lack of volley, first serve, and mainly movement, has him stuck around high 3.5's right now. His strokes are better, but unless you can hit winners from most anywhere on the court, movement is the single most important factor to getting above that mythical 4.0 level.
And there's more than one kind of movement. Short sprint, longer duration endurance, and also HOW you move that first step, besides getting to the ball in ball striking position.
Movement is not a natural phenomenum, but most soccer, football, basketball, and some baseball players seem to do quite well.

Who's Dave?
 
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Re your FH, out of 10 shots, how many went in?
They look good.

Actually most. 7-8. Some of them landed shorter then I hoped. From the video it's hard to tell but there's a lot of spin on those balls. Too much some times.
 
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Powerful hit. Are you a 5.5 level player?

Just a little background on myself Tina.

I played university tennis up here in Canada (1997-1999). I've been rated as high as a 5.0 as off 2007. The last time I was rated. I have a strong semi-western (almost western) forehand and a eastern/continental on my 2 handed backhand. I can hit my 1st serve over 100mph and my second serve is a heavy slice or kick.
I'm mainly a base liner but my volleys are too shabby. My racquet is a the Prestige Classic 600, a 93' square inch racquet.

For the last few years, I played some competitive tennis but mostly took it easy. Now I'm trying to regain some of my lost form due to age and lack of competitive play. I'm 36 years old and I want to compete in the +35 nationals soon so I need hit the gym and get my strokes groom again. So that's really the reason I'm posting. Just to get some feedback.
 
FH comments- You seem capable of generating pretty decent pace. I bet you could get another 25% more pace out of your shots with less effort based on what I see. The key is, you guessed it, to relax and find the fluidity in this stroke, much like you see when Federer hits a FH.

So when I watch you hit your FH, it still looks stiff and almost like you are "arming" the ball. You want to be uncoiling as you are contacting the ball. If you watch closely, you will often be open already while striking the ball (i.e. chest facing net), so you are relying on mostly arm strength here (i.e. almost slapping it) instead of using the stored energy from your legs and core rotation. Sometimes you are even falling backwards a tad, or to the side on your follow through instead of moving towards the target. This tells me you have spent some of the potential energy you stored up in your legs and core prior to contact. This is one source of power that is lost and not being transferring to the ball. Probably on the order of 15-20% is lost.

Another inefficiency I see is in your swing. What seems to be lacking is a certain fluidity. Your swing seems like it is more horizontal than vertical at contact, almost as if you are hitting it with your wrist and forearm straight out, like a baseball bat. Instead, you want to have your racquet swing more downward and then extend towards your target after your takeback. Try and use your left hand to help you set up (i.e. pretend like you are catching the ball with your left hand).

With the face of the stringbed facing the back curtain, find the swingpath that approximates a pendulum and try and keep your frame in this plane as you swing towards your contact point. Try and lead with your wrist as you start to drop your frame towards the bottom of this "slot" and continue to lead with the wrist coming out from the bottom. As your frame begins to rise up you should be uncoiling from your legs and core. With you arm about half way between the bottom of the slot and the contact point the racquet head should now be accelerated using your wrist (i.e. think of a the racquet as being the tip of the whip in this kenetic chain). If you time it correctly your forearm should be extended towards your target on contact and your wrist and racquet's stringbed lined up in the same plane perfectly perpendicular to the vector that represents the balls desired flight path.

As you make contact continue extend along this vector before breaking your swing back across your chest on your follow through. Your chest should be facing the target during this extension period and your left arm should on its way to being tucked in on your left side as you allow your racquet rotation to finish across your chest. Your right leg may come around as you weight transfers through the shot and you move towards your recovery step.

If you can try to find this motion without hitting a ball it might help to practice it that way first. Then when you go to hit a live ball, start out by just trying to groove this fluidity without worrying about how much pace you are generating. You should be completely relaxed while striking the ball, much like the pro's look like when they are warming up. Once you've grooved the stroke, you can then start to work on generating pace through the proper core rotation and acceleration of the wrist and forearm through contact. The key to power here is to remain relaxed through the entire stroke. I guarantee you that if you find this, you will be able to hit a heavier ball with significantly less effort than you are expending now. You will then have an extra 20-30% additional power in reserve to really crack that FH.

I'm pretty sure some of the teaching pros on here can give you a better description and more helpful pointers than I have here. Hopefully they will chime in and add their comments too.

I'll look at the BH a little later on....

EDIT --> The FH's at 2:24 and the one after that look better. The BH looks really good. I'm not a 2H'er so I can't offer much useful advice there but it looks solid, good acceleration and extension. We need to see some of this on the FH side!!!!
 
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one thing i noticed on your forehand, in your forward stroke to follow through, you are raising your shoulder too high on your hitting arm.. watch the pro's.. for the most part, they have fairly level shoulders on regular hitting zone balls

Yeah that's a good tip man thanks. I was basically throwing myself at every shot there. Lol I felt it the next day. I think I need to take a valium before I play or a massage. Hopefully I'd be looser then.
 
FH comments- You seem capable of generating pretty decent pace. I bet you could get another 25% more pace out of your shots with less effort based on what I see. The key is, you guessed it, to relax and find the fluidity in this stroke, much like you see when Federer hits a FH.

So when I watch you hit your FH, it still looks stiff and almost like you are "arming" the ball. You want to be uncoiling as you are contacting the ball. If you watch closely, you will often be open already while striking the ball (i.e. chest facing net), so you are relying on mostly arm strength here (i.e. almost slapping it) instead of using the stored energy from your legs and core rotation. Sometimes you are even falling backwards a tad, or to the side on your follow through instead of moving towards the target. This tells me you have spent some of the potential energy you stored up in your legs and core prior to contact. This is one source of power that is lost and not being transferring to the ball. Probably on the order of 15-20% is lost.

Another inefficiency I see is in your swing. What seems to be lacking is a certain fluidity. Your swing seems like it is more horizontal than vertical at contact, almost as if you are hitting it with your wrist and forearm straight out, like a baseball bat. Instead, you want to have your racquet swing more downward and then extend towards your target after your takeback. Try and use your left hand to help you set up (i.e. pretend like you are catching the ball with your left hand).

With the face of the stringbed facing the back curtain, find the swingpath that approximates a pendulum and try and keep your frame in this plane as you swing towards your contact point. Try and lead with your wrist as you start to drop your frame towards the bottom of this "slot" and continue to lead with the wrist coming out from the bottom. As your frame begins to rise up you should be uncoiling from your legs and core. With you arm about half way between the bottom of the slot and the contact point the racquet head should now be accelerated using your wrist (i.e. think of a the racquet as being the tip of the whip in this kenetic chain). If you time it correctly your forearm should be extended towards your target on contact and your wrist and racquet's stringbed lined up in the same plane perfectly perpendicular to the vector that represents the balls desired flight path.

As you make contact continue extend along this vector before breaking your swing back across your chest on your follow through. Your chest should be facing the target during this extension period and your left arm should on its way to being tucked in on your left side as you allow your racquet rotation to finish across your chest. Your right leg may come around as you weight transfers through the shot and you move towards your recovery step.

If you can try to find this motion without hitting a ball it might help to practice it that way first. Then when you go to hit a live ball, start out by just trying to groove this fluidity without worrying about how much pace you are generating. You should be completely relaxed while striking the ball, much like the pro's look like when they are warming up. Once you've grooved the stroke, you can then start to work on generating pace through the proper core rotation and acceleration of the wrist and forearm through contact. The key to power here is to remain relaxed through the entire stroke. I guarantee you that if you find this, you will be able to hit a heavier ball with significantly less effort than you are expending now. You will then have an extra 20-30% additional power in reserve to really crack that FH.

I'm pretty sure some of the teaching pros on here can give you a better description and more helpful pointers than I have here. Hopefully they will chime in and add their comments too.

I'll look at the BH a little later on....

EDIT --> The FH's at 2:24 and the one after that look better. The BH looks really good. I'm not a 2H'er so I can't offer much useful advice there but it looks solid, good acceleration and extension. We need to see some of this on the FH side!!!!

Lol that's a lot to process but thanks for the post. Hopefully I'll sit down and break it all down later.
 
Hey Davai, looks like your doing well. In addition to what Jrod already said, all I can say is try getting a little bit more weight transfer going forward as you hit. You seem to be generating a lot or rotational energy so getting that going forward will give you a deadly FH. It will take some stress off the arm so you can hit looser and more fluid. I suspect as you get looser the arm will whip more adding even more power.

I too have a 1HBH so I can't say anything other than it looks great to me. It seems like you generate a lot of power.

Keep up the great work! It's paying off!
 
Lol that's a lot to process but thanks for the post. Hopefully I'll sit down and break it all down later.


I know it's a lot, but practically speaking, you are not too far from achieving this. If I could just show you in person you would say "Oh, is that all you meant? No problem...". Seriously, you are not that far off and what I am suggesting is really pretty minor tweaks in the grand scheme of things. It's very hard to try and describe how to achieve fluidity in a stroke, but once you see it and do it, you would likely recognize it and remember it easily. Your backhand seems like it has it. Your forehand is only a small step away.
 
To the OP.....we can analyze and go back and forth forever here. You can get 500 people to post advice. You can have folks tell you like the last guy, 'the hard work is paying off". All of that is fine and dandy....but meaningless. How would he know your work is paying off...unless I missed a post where you told him you were winning more matches now.

I assume your reasons for doing all this is to win more matches? Or is it to have the best looking strokes or hit the hardest? Just kidding, of course it is win more.

So are you winning more? Are you beating guys you used to lose to? Why were you losing to them before...because you did not hit hard enough?

In the end you need to spend more time playing actual tennis. After the match note what you need to work on and do it.

But my man....more matches, less seeking advice on the internet will do wonders for your game!
 
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To the OP.....we can analyze and go back and forth forever here. You can get 500 people to post advice. You can have folks tell you like the last guy, 'the hard work is paying off". All of that is fine and dandy....but meaningless. How would he know your work is paying off...unless I missed a post where you told him you were winning more matches now.

You obviously didn't see the video from a couple of months ago. His forehand has improved a good bit since then.

By the way, he said he has a coach he is working with, so maybe he is just enjoying a bit of comradery with like-minded people here. You can lighten up a bit.
 
all I can say is try getting a little bit more weight transfer going forward as you hit

Weight transfer is definitely what you need -

On the backhand, you have really good left arm extension, but your are kicking back with the left leg. This means that you are swinging weight backwards (and way from contact!) so that energy is going away from the ball and leaving just weak arming.

While players do use the extension of the left leg as a balance from a forward - for example, in this video of Murry, you will notice that they do after contact (so weight has gone into the shot and the back kick is only to stop you from falling!). Note also that on a real drive at about 48 secs. with a forward shifting of the left foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsMLBAKn9MU

See Tsonga's first backhand for how that back forward sweeps forward and around for power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhXbaorb3Q&NR=1

Regarding the forehand, if you are going with the big open stance, than you need more extension forward and more weight shift from right to left.

Note, for example, in Djokovich's forehand, that the right foot ends unweighted and only slightly touches the ground (showing that all weight goes right to left, through the ball)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU&feature=channel

Bending your knees helps with the weight shift.

Weight shift = power.

swinging with your arm means that you are not going to powerful or consistent.
 
To the OP.....we can analyze and go back and forth forever here. You can get 500 people to post advice. You can have folks tell you like the last guy, 'the hard work is paying off". All of that is fine and dandy....but meaningless. How would he know your work is paying off...unless I missed a post where you told him you were winning more matches now.

I assume your reasons for doing all this is to win more matches? Or is it to have the best looking strokes or hit the hardest? Just kidding, of course it is win more.

So are you winning more? Are you beating guys you used to lose to? Why were you losing to them before...because you did not hit hard enough?

In the end you need to spend more time playing actual tennis. After the match note what you need to work on and do it.

But my man....more matches, less seeking advice on the internet will do wonders for your game!

While I do agree with your post for the most part that nothing replaces match play and match toughness I'm just looking to elevate my game. Tennis for me is a game of learning no matter what my winning percentage is. I've played at a pretty high level before but it came to me after a competitive match with a 4.5-5.0 ( we split sets) that I still had a lot my game I could eek out of my frame (I'm only 5'7). So I decided to retool and get serious about trying to max out all my potential.

I know I will pick and choose what I listen to but after a few posts you begin to see trends of truth. That's what I take away from a thread like this. I'm not phishing for compliments, quite the contrary, I'm looking for the things that break down when I'm under pressure or breakages in my kinetic chain.

In our minds we are all arm chair 5.0-5.5's but I'm out to see how close I can really get. I know the theory but in practice it becomes a different thing all together. Putting up a video is a scary thing, the camera doesn't lie. I appreciate everyone's feedback.
 
Sorry guys no girlfriend this time,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9kwiHfPdTo

Here is a little video from a training session I had with a lvl 3 coach working on adding more pace to my groundies. Enjoy.

I've tried to take a lot of the feedback from KenC, Jrod, LeeD, smoothtennis and whomever else and apply it.

Feedback is welcome. Re-working the strokes is tough I had my share of shanks that session.

Cheers,

Mike

I would add: Contact point infront of the body. Hit a little earlier on the rise and do not wait and let the ball bounce too high and too close to your body.
 
Just a little background on myself Tina.

I played university tennis up here in Canada (1997-1999). I've been rated as high as a 5.0 as off 2007. The last time I was rated. I have a strong semi-western (almost western) forehand and a eastern/continental on my 2 handed backhand. I can hit my 1st serve over 100mph and my second serve is a heavy slice or kick.
I'm mainly a base liner but my volleys are too shabby. My racquet is a the Prestige Classic 600, a 93' square inch racquet.

For the last few years, I played some competitive tennis but mostly took it easy. Now I'm trying to regain some of my lost form due to age and lack of competitive play. I'm 36 years old and I want to compete in the +35 nationals soon so I need hit the gym and get my strokes groom again. So that's really the reason I'm posting. Just to get some feedback.

Hi Dava,

It's my honor to meet you here at TW. I had never played a university tennis team when I was in Australia (while you were playing a university tennis team in Canada). I am pretty new to tennis. I am trying my best to catch the latest techniques about this sport. My new racket is Prince Sharp Oversize. I am going to play with my opponent tomorrow. I might ask you some information about tennis (only if you don't mind) in a near future. I think you will be just fine to win your title. Keep it up the good work!!


-Tina
 
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Don't let pace make you overswing and get off balance. You are leaning back at the point of impact and that is what is making you frame the ball.
 
Hi Dava,

It's my honor to meet you here at TW. I had never played a university tennis team when I was in Australia (while you were playing a university tennis team in Canada). I am pretty new to tennis. I am trying my best to catch the latest techniques about this sport. My new racket is Prince Sharp Oversize. I am going to play with my opponent tomorrow. I might ask you some information about tennis (only if you don't mind) in a near future. I think you will be just fine to win your title. Keep it up the good work!!


-Tina

Welcome to tennis Tina. It's a sport you'll adore. Sometimes you'll be frustrated, sometimes dissappointed, other times elated, but it's the love of hitting the ball that will keep you coming back.

Let me give you the best piece of advice. Never let winning get in the way of learning. Change is hard, accept that it takes 1 step backward to take 2 forward. Take the harder road, welcome it and nothing is out of your grasp.

Good luck my friend. You're in for a journey of discovery and fun. Enjoy the ride.
 
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