Working on the kick

[Greg G]

Been in a bit of a serving slump. TBH been too lazy to give it the attention it deserves.

Anyway after getting used to constantly struggling to hold serve in my usual doubles play, I finally had enough and decided to put this in the top of the priority list.

The session was just a couple baskets of balls, doing progressions. Sorry in advance for the flat practice balls!

1. Service line with a half grip, no backswing, just concentrating on contact and getting the correct brushing sound
2. No man’s land east serving again concentrating on the contact sound, weight transfer direction (not falling off to one side), and serve direction.
3. Baseline. Full grip, full backswing. Starting slow and ramping it up.

Tested it this weekend and- big improvement! I did notice that the form kinda broke down a bit with pressure/fatigue, but overall a pretty good start. Hitting the spots much better (direction is king!), and getting weaker returns. Got nice height off the bounce too. So much easier when not under as much pressure from the returns

So I went back to the practice courts the next day to cement the improvements…

cone setup as follows: orange at the service box sideline halfway to the service line. Yellow cones at the service box outside corner and at the singles baseline corner (to see how far from the returner we can go).

Comments and suggestions most welcome.

 

[Dragy]

Been in a bit of a serving slump. TBH been too lazy to give it the attention it deserves.

Anyway after getting used to constantly struggling to hold serve in my usual doubles play, I finally had enough and decided to put this in the top of the priority list.

The session was just a couple baskets of balls, doing progressions. Sorry in advance for the flat practice balls!

1. Service line with a half grip, no backswing, just concentrating on contact and getting the correct brushing sound
2. No man’s land east serving again concentrating on the contact sound, weight transfer direction (not falling off to one side), and serve direction.
3. Baseline. Full grip, full backswing. Starting slow and ramping it up.

Tested it this weekend and- big improvement! I did notice that the form kinda broke down a bit with pressure/fatigue, but overall a pretty good start. Hitting the spots much better (direction is king!), and getting weaker returns. Got nice height off the bounce too. So much easier when not under as much pressure from the returns

So I went back to the practice courts the next day to cement the improvements…

cone setup as follows: orange at the service box sideline halfway to the service line. Yellow cones at the service box outside corner and at the singles baseline corner (to see how far from the returner we can go).

Comments and suggestions most welcome.

Great motion! If it’s consistent enough, should serve you well.

If you want something pointed out, I’d look into experimenting with taking the ball just a tad lower, when racquet head is rising more than going left.

Feel wise, aim to make contact here or a fraction of second later. Really thin suggestion, but still worth experimenting - better shape, kick and pace as well expected:

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

Great motion! If it’s consistent enough, should serve you well.

If you want something pointed out, I’d look into experimenting with taking the ball just a tad lower, when racquet head is rising more than going left.

Feel wise, aim to make contact here or a fraction of second later. Really thin suggestion, but still worth experimenting - better shape, kick and pace as well expected:

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

Exactly my thoughts nice motion, a bit lower contact to allow you to work up the ball.

I wouldn't practice this with flat balls, they don't take spin well and this serve in particular benefits from spin especially in the control aspect.

Fatigues affecting it and confidence not that surprising. You need to accelerate and commit more when under pressure or tired that's where the margin comes from.

 

[Chas Tennis]

To hit the kick serve the racket head must be rising as it contacts the ball. To observe that requires high speed video of adequate frame rate. Also, the racket will be observed higher after it impacts the ball.

1) For all videos that don't show the racket impacting the ball, don't post those videos.

2) At 240 fps you usually(mostly?) catch a frame where the racket goes higher after the ball impact - and that is one thing that identifies a kick serve. If your camera recording rate is much slower than 240 fps, I don't think that you can observe the 2 frames that verify that the racket was rising during impact. You just get a muddle of recordings that can be interpreted in different misleading ways. Always record at too high a frame rate before you understand what is happening. 240 fps is usually enough unless you want ball-string interactions, then you need a few thousand frames per second.

3) Forearm-to-Racket Shaft Angle. What makes the racket head rise? The elbow has just straightened and the angle between the forearm and racket shaft is continuing to rapidly change, causing the racket head to rise during impact - look for that. I have posted a video comparison between the kick and slice serves showing impacts - the angle of the racket shaft is different for slice and kick when viewed from behind.

4) For a camera view to the side, the racket shaft and head is closed about 12-15 degrees at impact for a kick serve but only 1-3 ?degrees for a slice or flat serve. This is the unknown Kick Serve Checkpoint. For some reason this fact seems to be unknown, unspoken....... One video from the right camera angle shows it.

Topspin Tennis? has a kick serve showing Federer that shows this closed racket face. I have posted a few videos also, especially Stosur, showing the closed racket impact.

See impact frame in the video. To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

See thread Junior Twist Serve for detailed observations. I've posted many times on the kick serve and closed racket face at impact.

See Chas Tennis Youtube for Kick, Flat and Slice 240 fps videos.

We need a player - with a strong kick serve - to video their kick serve to document this closed angle at impact. (Otherwise, the DIY stroke players, will be trying to get a kick serve with no guidance on what the real sub-motions actually are. ......as in the first 20 years of the forum!)

Any volunteers?

 

[eah123]

Those are good kick serves my guy!

Because I use the kick serve primarily as a second serve, the most important feature to me is safety-meaning height over the net.

The drill I do now is to put a rope 2 feet over the net. My goal is to try to hit the rope with my kick serve.

 

[Greg G]

Thanks guys. Will work on the lower contact and shape/arc of the ball, as well as keeping the form/RHS under pressure. As it is though, the short wide serve is really working well!

 

[Daniel Andrade]

3) Forearm-to-Racket Shaft Angle. What makes the racket head rise? The elbow has just straightened and the angle between the forearm and racket shaft is continuing to rapidly change,.

So that angle changes by moving your wrist?

 

[johnmccabe]

Any video from deuce side?

 

[Greg G]

Any video from deuce side?

Hmmm. I'll take some next time out, been working hard on the wide serve on the ad side.

Been practicing the canopener slice on the deuce side.

 

[johnmccabe]

Would be interesting to see your kick serve on deuce court. The starting position is so far out, making me wonder if there is any rule on where the server is allowed to stand.

 

[Dragy]

Would be interesting to see your kick serve on deuce court. The starting position is so far out, making me wonder if there is any rule on where the server is allowed to stand.

Within the sidelines. In doubles - including the tramlines.

 

[Chas Tennis]

So that angle changes by moving your wrist?

Why don't you single frame through the Federer kick serve above and see with your own eyes all joints that are doing whatever before, during and after impact?

To single frame on Youtube go full screen, stop video and use the period & comma keys.

Consider how much you want to study DIY forum strokes vs ATP strokes.

 

[travlerajm]

Been in a bit of a serving slump. TBH been too lazy to give it the attention it deserves.

Anyway after getting used to constantly struggling to hold serve in my usual doubles play, I finally had enough and decided to put this in the top of the priority list.

The session was just a couple baskets of balls, doing progressions. Sorry in advance for the flat practice balls!

1. Service line with a half grip, no backswing, just concentrating on contact and getting the correct brushing sound
2. No man’s land east serving again concentrating on the contact sound, weight transfer direction (not falling off to one side), and serve direction.
3. Baseline. Full grip, full backswing. Starting slow and ramping it up.

Tested it this weekend and- big improvement! I did notice that the form kinda broke down a bit with pressure/fatigue, but overall a pretty good start. Hitting the spots much better (direction is king!), and getting weaker returns. Got nice height off the bounce too. So much easier when not under as much pressure from the returns

So I went back to the practice courts the next day to cement the improvements…

cone setup as follows: orange at the service box sideline halfway to the service line. Yellow cones at the service box outside corner and at the singles baseline corner (to see how far from the returner we can go).

Comments and suggestions most welcome.

The first thing I notice is that you are not using a Continental grip. Your grip is what is called Aussie grip — halfway between Continental and eastern forehand.

If you rotate the grip half a bevel all the way to true continental, the kick serve will become more natural.

 

[johnmccabe]

Why don't you single frame through the Federer kick serve above and see with your own eyes all joints that are doing whatever before, during and after impact?

To single frame on Youtube go full screen, stop video and use the period & comma keys.

Consider how much you want to study DIY forum strokes vs ATP strokes.

watching every single details in ATP stroke frame by frame for a thousand times still won't make a 40-50 year old man reproduce it on court. There is a wide gap between knowing how the end product looks like and actually producing that in action. It takes step by step training to get to that end product that we see on TV. This learning process for human body can not be correctly decoded just by single frame videos. Good coaching can't be replaced by just watching videos.

I benefited a lot from watching single frame videos, but we shouldn't mislead people to think single frame video is the answer to everything.

 

[travlerajm]

The first thing I notice is that you are not using a Continental grip. Your grip is what is called Aussie grip — halfway between Continental and eastern forehand.

If you rotate the grip half a bevel all the way to true continental, the kick serve will become more natural.

 

[Dakota C]

Great motion! If it’s consistent enough, should serve you well.

If you want something pointed out, I’d look into experimenting with taking the ball just a tad lower, when racquet head is rising more than going left.

Feel wise, aim to make contact here or a fraction of second later. Really thin suggestion, but still worth experimenting - better shape, kick and pace as well expected:

@Greg G This is the correct advice. Your current contact is too high leading to your brushing being mostly across the ball (slice) as opposed to topspin.
Do the progressions again, but have your goal with the brush to have the ball go upwards after contact, as opposed to the straight-line-towards-your-target flight path it currently has.

 

[fuzz nation]

Been in a bit of a serving slump. TBH been too lazy to give it the attention it deserves.

Anyway after getting used to constantly struggling to hold serve in my usual doubles play, I finally had enough and decided to put this in the top of the priority list.

The session was just a couple baskets of balls, doing progressions. Sorry in advance for the flat practice balls!

1. Service line with a half grip, no backswing, just concentrating on contact and getting the correct brushing sound
2. No man’s land east serving again concentrating on the contact sound, weight transfer direction (not falling off to one side), and serve direction.
3. Baseline. Full grip, full backswing. Starting slow and ramping it up.

Tested it this weekend and- big improvement! I did notice that the form kinda broke down a bit with pressure/fatigue, but overall a pretty good start. Hitting the spots much better (direction is king!), and getting weaker returns. Got nice height off the bounce too. So much easier when not under as much pressure from the returns

So I went back to the practice courts the next day to cement the improvements…

cone setup as follows: orange at the service box sideline halfway to the service line. Yellow cones at the service box outside corner and at the singles baseline corner (to see how far from the returner we can go).

Comments and suggestions most welcome.

Gotta say that I strongly advise against using those abbreviated follow-throughs for those close-in practice serves. If you want to use a more compact motion to find your contact point for a kick serve, I think it's fine to use less-than-full wind-up. But stopping your arm early after contact like that is only torquing on your wrist and forearm with no benefit that I can think of right now. Keep that follow-through loose and fluid, even when you shorten the distance that you use to accelerate over the top.

My other recommendation as you pursue this serve is to more generally protect yourself. If you're not doing both core work - strengthening - along with significant stretching after every practice session, you're juggling hand grenades. The kick serve generally pushes us into an orientation that includes more back bend than either a flat or slice (sidespin) serve. Developing a heavier topspin serve usually introduces more back bend, too.

Kids can generally get away with hitting lots of kick serves because they're more inherently flexible. But even with good technique, that flexibility wanes for all of us as we age... and even some higher level kids with decent coaching run into back troubles when they hit too many kickers. Make the effort off the court to enhance your core strength and flexibility and that should stack the odds of success with this serving style much more in your favor.

You look like you're making really good progress. One aspect of this serve that can be counterintuitive is the proper orientation at setup. If you haven't done much for experiments with starting more closed or even more open to your target, that could help with your release over the top. A flat serve might work a little better with a mildly open stance, but you might find an easier release for generating the spin you need for your kick serve if your starting orientation is a bit more closed. A couple of your kick serves (thanks for posting!!) look to my eye as though you're more set up for hitting a flatter ball, but everybody is a little different with this.

There's also the aspect of developing decent disguise with your various serves, but that's probably more of a concern for later on after you've got the fundamental serve types working.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Why don't you single frame through the Federer kick serve above and see with your own eyes all joints that are doing whatever before, during and after impact?

To single frame on Youtube go full screen, stop video and use the period & comma keys.

Consider how much you want to study DIY forum strokes vs ATP strokes.

@Chas Tennis It appears to be the wrist, but it is difficult to tell due to the low resolution of the video.

"Consider how much you want to study DIY forum strokes vs ATP strokes."

I wonder why you wrote that since I study ATP strokes and never watch DIY forum strokes.

 

[Chas Tennis]

watching every single details in ATP stroke frame by frame for a thousand times still won't make a 40-50 year old man reproduce it on court. There is a wide gap between knowing how the end product looks like and actually producing that in action. It takes step by step training to get to that end product that we see on TV. This learning process for human body can not be correctly decoded just by single frame videos. Good coaching can't be replaced by just watching videos.

I benefited a lot from watching single frame videos, but we shouldn't mislead people to think single frame video is the answer to everything.

Who said those things.....created those words?

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Best to quote what was said and not your thoughts about what was said.

 

[Chas Tennis]

@Chas Tennis It appears to be the wrist, but it is difficult to tell due to the low resolution of the video.
...........................................................................

The resolution of the video is OK to see wrist joint motions in the Federer kick serve posted above. Chas Tennis Youtube Kick serve is another video. There is also a slice and flat serve from the same camera angle so you can put the flat, kick and slice serves one above the others and compare what makes the racket head rise for the kick serve - the basic question.

Look at the Federer kick serve video frame-by-frame from 4:48 - 4:49. Look at the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle and study the wrist. More than one joint at a time may contribute to racket head speed. Study all joints that are moving before, during and after impact. List the most important joint first and then the second most, 3rd most...... Because a joint moves does not mean that the muscles of that joint were necessarily providing forces or much force.

What joint motion is most involved with the rise of the racket strings when a kick serve is impacted (include jump or leg thrust and everything else)?

 

[Greg G]

https://imgur.com/a/tm4mrRX

Here’s my serve grip. And volley/slice grip. Looks conti to me…?

On a lighter note, was playing social doubles when I got aced out wide in the ad side! Oh hell no . I was serving next and I said I must have revenge…and I hit an kicker ace to the ad side

So yeah progress

 

[fuzz nation]

https://imgur.com/a/tm4mrRX

Here’s my serve grip. And volley/slice grip. Looks conti to me…?

On a lighter note, was playing social doubles when I got aced out wide in the ad side! Oh hell no . I was serving next and I said I must have revenge…and I hit an kicker ace to the ad side

So yeah progress

Looks like a continental grip to me.

As you work on your kicker, don't be afraid to experiment with shading your grip position even slightly more toward eastern backhand. It might feel really strange, but it can be useful for generating that sort of serve while allowing your wrist to remain a little more neutral (compared with using your standard continental grip) as you swing through contact. If hitting your kick serve while using your standard continental grip feels like you need to really flex your wrist as you release through the ball, this tweak might let you crank out your spin without needing an extreme wrist bend.

But whether this grip (should we call it extreme continental?) will be useful depends on your combo of swing path/swing plane and contact point. I don't hit many of these serves anymore, but when I do I'll shade beyond my standard continental position when I want to max out the spin on my topspin or kick serves. I use a standard continental grip for both my flat serves and my slice (side spin) serves, but I can only do so much with the timing of my wrist pronation and racquet release to contact. Extreme continental is an essential ingredient for my topspin and kick serves.

 

[johnmccabe]

Who said those things.....created those words?

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Best to quote what was said and not your thoughts about what was said.

the tone in your posts often make new guys think video analyses will fix their problems. the reality is few people can benefit from that greatly, but it's useless to most people without good coaching.

 

[TheBoom]

Been in a bit of a serving slump. TBH been too lazy to give it the attention it deserves.

Anyway after getting used to constantly struggling to hold serve in my usual doubles play, I finally had enough and decided to put this in the top of the priority list.

The session was just a couple baskets of balls, doing progressions. Sorry in advance for the flat practice balls!

1. Service line with a half grip, no backswing, just concentrating on contact and getting the correct brushing sound
2. No man’s land east serving again concentrating on the contact sound, weight transfer direction (not falling off to one side), and serve direction.
3. Baseline. Full grip, full backswing. Starting slow and ramping it up.

Tested it this weekend and- big improvement! I did notice that the form kinda broke down a bit with pressure/fatigue, but overall a pretty good start. Hitting the spots much better (direction is king!), and getting weaker returns. Got nice height off the bounce too. So much easier when not under as much pressure from the returns

So I went back to the practice courts the next day to cement the improvements…

cone setup as follows: orange at the service box sideline halfway to the service line. Yellow cones at the service box outside corner and at the singles baseline corner (to see how far from the returner we can go).

Comments and suggestions most welcome.

Pretty solid fundamentals! The biggest thing I see is that you want to get more momentum into the court. I use a pinpoint-style serve so my momentum naturally goes into the court, but if you can get your momentum going, that will help get a little more power on your serve.

Good stuff though, love to see such a smooth motion!

 

[Greg G]

OK here are 4 serves, the 3rd in slow motion. yeah still not letting it drop more (it's hard!) so I'm getting more side spin rather than top/side spin.

 

[travlerajm]

OK here are 4 serves, the 3rd in slow motion. yeah still not letting it drop more (it's hard!) so I'm getting more side spin rather than top/side spin.

The slo mo was helpful thanks. It’s not that you’re not letting it drop more… it’s that you’re making contact too late in your motion so that your racquet is already moving slightly downwards at contact rather than upwards.

Try to exaggerate hitting on the way up.

I still think a more spin-oriented grip (at least to full Continental if not a little further, rather than slightly toward Aussie) would help and force the upward motion at contact. I noted the grip early in the thread because the giveaway is your racquet is slightly closed when you extend it forward at start of your motion, while pros have the racquet slightly open at that point on second serves due to a stronger spin grip.

Pros with the best second serve kicks are often almost completely open facing the sky (like raonic) because the serve grip is further toward eastern bh direction.

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

If you're not worried about disguise Eastern bh grip would help.

A weird seeming tip I was given was too **** your wrist (again a giveaway) before you started the swing.

The coach argued it affects the path you tend to take the racket on so helps a kick without having to think of anything technical. Seems to work, worth a try if you wanted.

Raonic seems to do this with most serves as he seems to prioritising control and percentages over power (i guess he has enough). This has the effect of exaggerating where his strings face golfers would call that face plane tilt.

 

[Greg G]

It’s not Aussie! If anything I was cheating to eastern BH already