WORLD NO. 1 (by year)

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by hoodjem, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan, Still doubting facts??
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, I guess Dan has meant it in a different way than you see the whole matter...
     
  3. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, I don't think there was a point system for the WHOLE year at all! Buchholz's article does not give any hint of such a system. You also have not found yet such a points system for the whole year.

    I also don't believe that all posters agree that Laver was No. 2 in the "Buchholz" tour (the 17 or 18 tournamnet tour, the pro world championship tour).
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    130 day tour? When was it played????
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Limpin, Here I agree (apart from your wrong claim about a 130 day tour of course).
     
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan, My compliment: You are approaching Limpinhitter's and Phoenix's insults. Thought you are Christian...
     
  7. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    No need to beat around the bush. It's Dylan in music and Laver in tennis.
     
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  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan, The world championships lastened from May, 19 till October, 31.
     
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  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    urban, You will again mind me and think I'm a bad boy, but I must again contradict you at several points.

    The world championship tour lasted from May to October, more than only 119 days. There was a one month pause therein though.

    The smaller events were not "played for fun" alone but of course also for prize money!

    Joe, Laver and krosero were wrong regarding Laver's big titles. He only won 6, not 7 (see McCauley's result section).

    If you give much weight to Wembley you should know that a British newspaper or magazine refers also to Rosewall's 1960 and 1961 wins (see krosero's post). As far as I know you and others doubt Ken's claim of No.1 in those years.

    You mention Barrett. In his World of Tennis yearbooks Rosewall was usually mentioned as No.1 in 1964.

    The same Barrett wrote in the 1975 "Grand Prix Tennis" a long article on Rosewall. He writes: "For almost four years he (Rosewall) was invincible as his consecutive Wembley titles from 1960 - 64 testify" (Barrett here made an error by writing 1964 instead of 1963). Do you agree with his claim regarding 1960 and 1961?
     
  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Limpin, Which 130 day tour? When was it played?? Please help us!

    Laver (better his Co.-author) was surely influenced by newspapers. I don't think he has researched and analyzed the whole year 1964 as krosero has done. Also Rosewall has not researched too much for his new biography.
     
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  11. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    hoodjem, Okay. The only doubtful tournament is the Golden Racquet Wembley 4 man tournament, July 20, 21. I believe it counted for the world championship tour.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan, No. He and another poster think that Laver's self-assessment means his claim must be a fact and truth.
     
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Limpin, Do you really think that old Rocket makes an analysis as a tennis historian like krosero does?
     
  14. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    It's the only way to get pass this tiring subject. Any response will continue the farce.
     
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  15. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    I'm taking a wild guess that apart from our resident Rosewall cultist, krosero and maybe Dan (like any good Christian he's a masochist at heart) just about everyone is fed up with the equine that just refuses to die. Maybe if we stopped feeding him we could get somewhere else.

    Here's the #1 of 1955 (Dan will dig this):



    Gorgeous video. Wish they'd do more stuff like this.
     
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  16. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I have now the South African newspaper that I was looking for. I mentioned to NatF a few days ago that I had no in-depth reports from the South Africa tour that ended Oct. 31, when Rosewall beat Laver in a special Challenge Match and ended his season. I didn’t expect to get the newspaper for weeks (interlibrary loans always take forever) but it came in today. I’ve only had time to read the reports and type up this short excerpt. I need to scan the rest of the articles – and there are a lot of them; this is truly in-depth coverage.

    The paper is the Sunday Times of Johannesburg. On Oct. 18 they had this:

    TITLE DECIDER

    Laver v. Rosewall on Rand

    By LEONARD NEILL

    ROD LAVER and Ken Rosewall, the world’s top professional tennis players, are to meet in a five-set match at Ellis Park on October 31 to decide the World Championship. A leading South African brewery will sponsor the event, with a R1,000 prize going to the winner.

    In announcing this special match yesterday, Mr. Owen Williams, the promoter of the South African tour of the visiting professional team said:

    “Both Laver and Rosewall are eager to play this match as it will end the disputed position which exists regarding the world championship at present.

    “It is generally accepted that the major tournament on the annual international circuit decides the world championship for that year. This year it was the Wembley tournament in London, which Laver won.

    “As a result Laver has been regarded by the Press and spectators as world champion, but Rosewall has won more tournaments, and the general feeling among the players and officials is that he, not Laver, is the world’s best.

    END OF CIRCUIT

    “He was undisputed world champion for the past four years, and it was only when Laver won at Wembley that the position changed and the dispute arose.

    “The Ellis Park match [on Oct. 31] will settle the whole position, as it will mark the end of the 1964 circuit, most of the players returning home then for a three-month break before setting out on the 1965 circuit.”​

    A later preview notes that Rosewall was leading Laver “in tournament points earned”.

    Laver and Rosewall agreed that their Challenge Match would settle the issue of who was World Champion.

    I will post all the text of these articles as I can. There is a lot of fascinating material here, including a long report of the Challenge Match itself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
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  17. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    In looking at rankings and newspaper reports from 1964 I would

    - trust the judgements of David Gray, Bellamy, Tingay over those of an reports in the rest of the British press. They specialised in tennis, the others were just general purpose sports commentators with a tendency to excitement and hype over measured analysis (i.e. exactly the same as today!)
    - be cautious about completely trusting the judgements of those same (Gray, Bellamy, Tingay) because of the tendency of British commentators to assume that Britain and Wimbledon were perhaps more important than they were in the minds of players and the rest of the world. That is because Britain was seen as the 'home' of tennis, and therefore tournaments here more important. You still see some of that attitude today IMO.
     
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  18. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    I would go with Coltrane and Laver.
     
  19. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Dan, if you mean a points system applied to all tournaments throughout the year, no I haven’t seen any indication of that. I think we all agree that a points system was applied to the tournaments of the Buchholz tour, discussed in his article – and those tournaments ran from mid-May to mid-October.

    In some recent exchanges Urban and I have posted about the possibility that other tournaments were counted in some way in the pros’ ranking system, ie, 4-man tournaments in Australia, France or Egypt, outside of the usual 17 events identified as part of the points system. I’ve left the possibility open that such events were included in a larger points system encompassing the whole year, but I have not found any confirmation of that.

    Bobby, I don’t think so either. As I said to Dan, I’ve left the possibility open and I’ve been a little less adamant than you, for instance, about whether 4-man tournaments counted toward the points system. You’ve stated definitively that such tournaments did not give out points, and I’ve generally agreed with that position. If you recall I said to NatF above that IMO the 4-man tournaments in November were not part of the points system but that this had never been confirmed.

    I think part of the confusion here comes from my post yesterday to PC1, and the confusion is due entirely to me. I said I disagreed with his position that Laver finished atop the points system because I assumed, mistakenly, that he was arguing for a year-long points system, in which Laver finished officially as #1. He clarified that he was not arguing for such a system, and that his view was that the Buchholz tour was the only one featuring a points system.

    With that clarified, I’m not sure who’s left arguing that there was a year-long points system encompassing all tournaments. You don’t argue for such a system; neither does PC1; and I’ve never seen any firm evidence of such a thing. Dan doesn’t seem to argue for it either.

    So that leaves us all, for what it’s worth, agreeing that the only portions of the year that featured a points system were those tours (in the US, Europe and South Africa) discussed by Buchholz in his article.

    That agreement may not be worth much, because we have vastly different positions about what that points system meant to the pros with regard to their yearly rankings.

    Anyway, back to those reports from South Africa :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
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  20. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    You said: "With that clarified, I’m not sure who’s left arguing that there was a year-long points system encompassing all tournaments. . . ."

    I am not aware that anyone argued that. If there was such a points system, it hasn't been proffered to my knowledge.
     
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  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, Your next great finding. But it's new for me that the challenge match ("Heavyweight World Professional Title") was built to decide the No.1 position for the whole year. Buchholz did not even mention that special match. But I could live with that decision (Rosewall won clearly ;-) )

    There is a mistake: It was not built as a five-set match of course.

    I also am doubting the deciding importance of Wembley as the winner of it still got only 7 points. Of course I'm aware that Wembley was the greatest tournament in that time.
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    DMP, I agree.
     
  23. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    Nah, good as Crescent was it ain't no A Love Supreme. Plus none of Trane's live performances in '64 equal the justly legendary Village Vanguard sessions (whose complete recordings on Impulse happen to be among my desert-island items):

     
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  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, Thanks. Yes, you don't have confirmation that 4-man tournaments did not give points but we know one thing for sure: Buchholz in his article did not give any hint to such a counting. In fact he only mentioned personal clashes between the top players in the acknowledged 8-man tournaments, such as "I beat Gonzales at Noordwijk, Pancho beat me at Milwaukee" and so on, etc., IIRC. That's rather telling even though I concede that he also did not mention any match of the Golden Racquet tournament which probably yet counted to the long world championship series.

    There should not be vastly different positions about what that points system meant to the pros, after all the provided sources and your excellent research...
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
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  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Limpin, I agree.
     
  26. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    NonP, this ubiquitous recording launched what I regard as the summit era of musical and cultural achievement, especially in the performing arts.
    Gould was elevated to a living cult status, and helped to popularize high art music.
     
  27. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    How many "world championships" could the pros promote during one season? And in South Africa, no less.
    Actually "most of the pros" did not depart the circuit after this, Rosewall had already arranged more events.
     
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  28. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Here's the full text of that report I excerpted above, from the Sunday Times of Johannesburg of Oct. 18:

    TITLE DECIDER

    Laver v. Rosewall on Rand

    By LEONARD NEILL

    ROD LAVER and Ken Rosewall, the world’s top professional tennis players, are to meet in a five-set match at Ellis Park on October 31 to decide the World Championship. A leading South African brewery will sponsor the event, with a R1,000 prize going to the winner.

    In announcing this special match yesterday, Mr. Owen Williams, the promoter of the South African tour of the visiting professional team said:

    “Both Laver and Rosewall are eager to play this match as it will end the disputed position which exists regarding the world championship at present.

    “It is generally accepted that the major tournament on the annual international circuit decides the world championship for that year. This year it was the Wembley tournament in London, which Laver won.

    “As a result Laver has been regarded by the Press and spectators as world champion, but Rosewall has won more tournaments, and the general feeling among the players and officials is that he, not Laver, is the world’s best.

    END OF CIRCUIT

    “He was undisputed world champion for the past four years, and it was only when Laver won at Wembley that the position changed and the dispute arose.

    “The Ellis Park match will settle the whole position, as it will mark the end of the 1964 circuit, most of the players returning home then for a three-month break before setting out on the 1965 circuit.”

    While Rosewall has been the top name internationally for so long, Laver’s rise has been phenomenal.

    He has been in the professional ranks for only 20 months, and won all but two of his first 33 matches. These were in an Australasian tour against Rosewall and Hoad, where Hoad, Laver’s boyhood hero, beat him 8-0, and Rosewall beat him 31-2.

    His first year, in fact, was not tremendously successful, and even at the start of the 1964 circuit, Laver was still an inferior player to the other professionals.

    During the United States tour earlier this year, however, he began to gain in stature as he won a share of the tournaments.

    LEAN SPELL

    Then in Europe the Australian left-hander Laver shared the six major tournaments with Rosewall and Andres Gimeno, each winning two.

    While Rosewall won in Paris, Laver’s Wembley victory has generally been regarded as having established him as world champion.

    The general opinion among the other players, however, is that Rosewall has been going through a lean spell, and was having difficulty in recovering his form. At his best, they feel, he is still the top player in the world.

    “The dispute increased when Laver won the Salisbury tournament, and we decided to try and settle it here,” said Williams yesterday.

    “Our big problem was in being able to put up a sufficiently attractive sidestake for the match, but this was solved when Mr. Ted Sceales, the managing director of the brewery, said that his company would sponsor the event on condition that the players concerned would accept the match as being for the undisputed world championship.

    “There has been no hesitancy in accepting this, for both Laver and Rosewall are eager to clear up the position. What is more they have asked for the match to be a five-setter as opposed to the normal run of three-set matches they play in tournaments.

    “Apart from the sponsored prize, a large percentage of the gate will be paid to the players.”​
     
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  29. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    The following Sunday (Oct. 25), there was this preview:

    Rosewall 6-4 favourite to beat Laver

    THE opinions of 10 Springbok tennis players, past and present, make Ken Rosewall a 6-4 favourite to beat Rod Laver in their challenge match for the world professional championship to be played at Ellis Park on Saturday (writes LEONARD NEILL).

    The match has been arranged to resolve the dispute which has arisen regarding the 1964 world championship, some officials claiming that Rosewall is still the holder, having a higher standing in tournament points earned, while others point to Laver’s win in the major tournament of the year, the Wembley Pool event in London, as having established him as the champion.

    During the past few days the 10 Springboks have been asked to give their views on the likely outcome. Six forecast victory for Rosewall. The other four made it a Laver win.

    Opinions

    These are the opinions of the six favouring Rosewall:

    ABE SEGAL: “I take Ken to win in four sets. Laver has been outplaying him in recent tournaments, but Rosewall is coming back to form. That will make him a different proposition."

    OWEN WILLIAMS: “In a five-set match Rosewall will be more durable. I think he will wear Laver down.”

    GAETON KOENIG: “Rosewall is a consistent player when he’s back in form, which he looks to be right now. I think this consistency will be enough to win in four sets.”

    RUSSELL SEYMOUR: “Past performances prove that Rosewall is an all-time ‘great’. In a match as serious as this one he’ll have the edge on Laver. I take Ken to win in four sets.”

    ERIC STURGESS: “Rosewall is coming back to form. At his peak he is a more consistent player than Laver, and I think he’ll need only four sets to prove the better man.”

    LEON NORGARB: “Rosewall has been playing great tennis in Cape Town. He is right back to his best. His experience should beat Laver.”

    But there are strong arguments in favour of Laver from the other four.

    Rod to win

    GORDON FORBES: “It’s a Laver victory for me. His shots are more suited to the Rand’s altitude. It’s potentially one of the greatest matches ever made, and I think Rod will win in four or five sets.”

    MAX BERTRAM: “Laver is the form horse on the current tour. I think he should continue on his present showings, and I make it a three set to one win for him.”

    SID LEVY: “Laver is playing so well it’s hard to think of him being beaten right now. I pick him to beat Rosewall in four sets.”

    “TINY” MUSGROVE: “Laver is as fast as a cat. He’s certainly the fastest player I’ve ever seen. I don’t think he’ll lose this chance of a major victory. I vote for Laver to win in four sets.”​

    Will also post the match report.
     
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, There are a few bad errors in that report from the South African Sunday Times. Of course Laver did not win all but two of his first 1963 matches. And Rosewall did not beat Laver 31:2, as far as I know.

    If that challenge match was really a "decider" for world championship, Rosewall would have been safe as No.1 player twice: by winning the tournament tour (see Buchholz) and winning the challenge match.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, Thanks. It's interesting that none of these ten players made the right prognosis, Rosewall winning in three sets. I once read that Laver played a bit listlessly which would be strange as the match was for a world championship.
     
  32. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The term "world championship" was often used by promoters...nothing special about this. Cleveland, Wembley, Oklahoma City..etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  33. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Sunday, Nov. 1 edition:

    ROSEWALL RETAINS WORLD TENNIS TITLE

    KEN ROSEWALL, Australian holder of the world professional tennis championship, retained his title and won about R3,800 in 76 minutes in Johannesburg yesterday.

    An 8,000 crowd packed the grandstands around the Ellis Park Centre Court to see the 30-year-old Rosewall beat Rod Laver 6-4, 6-1, 6-4 in their championship challenge match.

    The dark-haired champion collected R1,000 winner’s money, presented by a South African brewery, and stood to get 30 per cent of the gate-money—estimated to bring him R2,800.

    Copper-headed Laver, troubled by the blustering wind that blew across the court, and a long way below top form, picked up about R1,800 of the takings, plus ten cases of beer.

    Asked what he was going to do with the money, Rosewall said with a big grin, “First of all, I’m going to count it.”

    Leonard Neill’s full report is on Page 20.​

    And the full report:

    MAJESTIC ROSEWALL IS KING

    Dour one-sided struggle was all over in only 76 minutes

    Cool “killer” crushes Laver in three sets to win world title

    By LEONARD NEILL

    KEN ROSEWALL is the undisputed world professional tennis champion. The cold, calculated “killer” of the courts crushed Rod Laver in three straight sets at Ellis Park yesterday to win 6-4, 6-1, 6-4, in their scheduled five-set challenge match.

    It was a magnificent triumph for the 30-year-old Rosewall. At the same time the match was a bitter disappointment for the packed 8,000 crowd.

    It took only 76 minutes to decide, and produced little of the brilliant tennis which has been displayed by this team of professionals during their current Southern African tour.

    At times strong gusts of wind across the court upset returns.

    Perhaps it was the nature of the match more than anything else which saw it develop into a dour one-sided struggle between the grim, determined Rosewall and an over-tense Laver.

    Rosewall, recognised as world champion for the past four years, has found this status in dispute as a result of Laver’s numerous major tournament victories all round the world this year.

    Floundered

    It encouraged him to produce the most devastating display of venomous tennis ever seen at Ellis Park – and it was far too much for a tentative Laver to counter.

    This was the “Rocket” floundering on a missing engine. His service let him down badly. His returns were erratic. None of the brilliant, flowing graceful shots which have dominated the big tournaments on the 1964 circuit were there to help him.

    There was a short spell at the start of the third set when he looked like making a recovery. He snapped up four games in a row, for a 4-0 lead.

    But Rosewall was always in command of the situation, and in the end there could have been only one winner, even if Laver had managed to take that third set.

    Tension ruled the scene through the first two sets, and it was the cooler Rosewall who was able to shape better under these circumstances.

    Smashed

    He smashed through Laver’s opening service and held his own for a 2-0 lead which he never relinquished. With games going to service he took the set comfortably at 6-4.

    This was to be the longest of the three sets – lasting 31 minutes.

    It revealed clearly the difference between the pair. Rosewall’s poker-faced expression never changed, but Laver’s high peak of tension was an obviously detrimental factor to his play.

    At 3-1 and on his own service he crashed home a service ace to put himself ahead at 40-15, and needed only a point for the game. But he promptly double served – and dropped his racket in annoyance.

    Altogether he lost points on three double services during the set, which produced no fewer than 11 deuce calls.

    With a set in his favour, Rosewall moved out of his solid, defensive play to place a tight grip on proceedings in the second set.

    After Laver took the first game on his own service, Rosewall swept through the next six games in an unbroken sequence for a two-set lead at 6-1.

    During this second set he was cutting the ball with superb accuracy on to the baseline, time and again pulling Laver into errors, and repeatedly having him moving in the wrong direction for return volleys.

    The second set lasted only 24 minutes, with nine “deuce” calls – and a further five double faults by Laver.

    Then came the final set, and for the first four games Laver looked to be back in the fight.

    His service let him down only once, and off Rosewall’s second service, with Laver 2-0 ahead, the red-haired Australian took four straight points for “game” in his best few moments of the afternoon.

    But Rosewall wasn’t to be beaten. And in those last few minutes of the match he produced the precise, direct brand of tennis which can only come from a world beater.

    Faced with a 4-0 deficit, and Laver appearing to find his lost touch, Rosewall smashed back into the scene to win six games in a row and prove beyond a measure of doubt that he is the undisputed ruler of the world’s tennis courts.

    In those six games he dropped only 12 points, and included in that figure was the only double fault he served during the afternoon. It was the only occasion, too, during those six games that he had needed more than a first service.

    In 21 minutes—the playing time of the final set—he had come back from 4-0 down and crushed his 26-year-old challenger. It was a disappointing game, but it was won by a majestic player.

    Andres Gimeno beat Lew Hoad 3-6, 6-2, 6-3 in a singles match.

    Gimeno was seeded third on the present South African tour and Hoad fourth.​
     
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  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan, I agree.
     
  35. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    This is probably not inspired by a "jazz" vision, but rather a folk dance...syncopated folk dances are common world-wide, and jazz itself probably derives from folk traditions.
     
  36. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    There was this follow-up report in the Nov. 8 edition, which spoke about plans for the '65 tour, the points system, and the world title:

    World tennis title looks certainty on future pro. tours

    THE world professional tennis championship title is almost certain to be decided in a match at Ellis Park during future tours by the international touring group. Such a match will need the approval of the International Professional Tennis Players’ Association, whose headquarters are in London (writes LEONARD NEILL).

    But it is unlikely that much opposition will be raised for these reasons:

    - All eight players who toured South Africa this year are right behind the playing of the match, and among them were:

    - Frank Sedgman, who is president of the I.P.T.P.A., and

    - Ken Rosewall, the Association’s treasurer, who, as world champion, will be vitally concerned with the match.

    - The removal of entertainment tax next year makes the match a far more lucrative promotion.

    - Major firms sponsoring sport are showing increasing interest in sponsoring professional tennis tournaments.

    Five-set match

    The actual basis on which the world title match will be played at Ellis Park will also have to be decided. The eight tourists who left Johannesburg this week, however, are behind the idea of a five-set encounter involving the reigning world champion, who is Rosewall, and the player who earns most points during the year’s international circuit from major tournaments.

    Points are awarded in these tournaments on a basis of seven for first place, four for second and one for third. Should Rosewall emerge with most points, then the player directly below him in the list will be his opponent.

    A suggestion that all the tourists should play on a knockout basis during a two- or three-day tournament is not favoured by the professionals, for two reasons.

    First tournament

    They feel that a tournament would defeat the object of the normal Johannesburg four-day event, which is their first competition in South Africa, and also there is no assurance that the top eight in the world will always be available to play in this country.

    The latter was the case this year. Richard Gonzales, who is still regarded as being among the top four internationally, had to leave the tour midway through the European circuit.

    This would not affect any plan to have Rosewall meet the top player in the points list in a straight one-day singles match, for even in the event of Rosewall’s opponent not being available for a full South African tour, he could be flown to Johannesburg for the short period required.​

    Here again is something which I feel was characteristic of the pros of that time period and their system: the concern about having all their players present for an event, or else it's a less significant event for them. Earlier in the year they had said something similar when they gave the press a running total of all the winnings by the players up to that moment: they said they did not include the Cleveland tournament in the count because “it was sort of a warmup affair and not all of our players were there.”
     
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  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, Thanks for the report, the first detailed one I ever read. Also the Gimeno/Hoad match was new for me.

    Even though the Sunday Times report called Rosewall the undisputed 1964 world professional tennis champion I fear that some posters will still claim that Muscles was not the acknowledged world champion that year. Or am I too pessimistic?
     
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  38. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Agreed about Laver.

    1964 in music is easily claimed by the Beatles, however, if we're going by commercial success: they held the top 5 positions in the US singles chart and top 2 positions in the US albums chart simultaneously, early in that year. However, you may be referring to the cultural impact of Dylan's albums. In which case, it's still pretty close between he and the Beatles.
     
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan, Absurd! You don't seem to know the difference between a folk dance and jazz. Beethoven was not inspired by a jazz vision -he HAD a jazz vision!
     
  40. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, you are attempting to reinvent the universe....relax, old boy.
     
  41. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    It does annoy me that Krosero is so relentlessly diplomatic though.

    In all seriousness, to be human, you have to disagree with people some of the time. Krosero is almost like a robot who refuses to ever take sides, for the risk of offending anyone. I know he has it in him, he just refuses to engage.
     
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, The project of a challenge match was also realized in 1965 when Laver beat Rosewall in four sets.

    It's a pity that seemingly there is no report about the point standings of the 1964 tour (that he can know if Golden Racquet and/or Trofeo Facis was included).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    You attempt to ignore facts (both in tennis and music).
     
  44. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    If you'd studied the chart books, you'd know that the Beatles were by far the No 1 act in 1964.

    Elvis' peak period was the late 50s/early 60s.
     
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  45. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Agreed. I just figured I had to pick another person or group from the music field along with the Beatles so the joke would work better.
     
  46. Gary Duane

    Gary Duane Legend

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    Could well be. Regardless, it's not too often you see a time signature of 12/32, which is what is given for that particular variation.

    To the ear it sounds like a series of fast triplets, 12 of them to a bar. Because the last note in the 2nd and 5th triplet is often tied to the beginning of the next triplets, it creates a rhythm that to my ear at least is unique in that time period and in that style. That tied accent is what we get later in swing.

    Creative people just create things because they sound "cool" to them. I don't care why Beethoven chose that rhythm. But I can easily understand why people make the link between this and "boogie woogie". ;)
     
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  47. Gary Duane

    Gary Duane Legend

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    It's called "being the grownup in a roomful of children". ;)
     
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  48. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Don't feed his ego. He hasn't shown a speck of humanity IMHO.
     
  49. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    It seems that all 4 or Rosewall's wins over Laver in 1964 were for The World Championship. Too bad for Rosewall that Laver finished the year as the #1 player with the best record on the circuit.
     
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  50. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Oh OK, fair enough.
     

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