World Tour Finals vs Olympics Gold

jg153040 said:
I vote for WTF. Winning 6 WTF is much tougher than 1 gold.
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Then how are 6 Gold Medals sound? :eek:
The Olympic Gold is a bit different than anything else, it might now be very important but if you are a patriot you might actually suffer to win it once at least.
Also, it should be compared to the Davis Cup, not necessarily to the WTF/Grand Slam/M1000.
The number of points isn't important at all, gives you a small boost for 1 year since the majority don't play in Washington 500 anyway.
Each way, you should ask Nole, if he didn't have the Davis in 2010, what would have choose between the DC and OG if he could win only one?
Also, I think it's the only tourny where you could actually care as much for doubles.
 
The YEC or WTF has always been viewed as a major throughout history. The Olympics has not, nowadays it's treated like a major but it has no history of great champions like the WTF. The YEC is atleast even with it IMO.
 
PaulFCB said:
Then how are 6 Gold Medals sound? :eek:
The Olympic Gold is a bit different than anything else, it might now be very important but if you are a patriot you might actually suffer to win it once at least.
Also, it should be compared to the Davis Cup, not necessarily to the WTF/Grand Slam/M1000.
The number of points isn't important at all, gives you a small boost for 1 year since the majority don't play in Washington 500 anyway.
Each way, you should ask Nole, if he didn't have the Davis in 2010, what would have choose between the DC and OG if he could win only one?
Also, I think it's the only tourny where you could actually care as much for doubles.
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You would have a point if somebody actually had 6 gold medals in tennis.

But Fed has 6 WTFs and 2 medals. So he is covered anyway. If people want to find faults with Fed's legacy, Olympics and WTF isn't the place.

I guess Olympic medal has more flash to average fans. But winning a WTF is more impressive. It's more difficult.

But medal in tennis is not the same as medal in sports like swimming. Because some sports are revolved around the gold medal. But casual fans don't know this. So, this is the only reason why people who don't know much about tennis would see it as more "flashy" than it really is.

You can't compare tennis O medals with other sports O medals.

I would say this. Winning a WTF over a medal makes you better tennis player, while medal is more prestigious and makes you look more famous.
 
jg153040 said:
But medal in tennis is not the same as medal in sports like swimming. Because some sports are revolved around the gold medal. But casual fans don't know this. So, this is the only reason why people who don't know much about tennis would see it as more "flashy" than it really is.
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Neah, many average sport fans know that the Olympic Tennis isn't as important for the player as the medal is for a gymnast, swimmer, fencer or even sprinter that has the Diamond League apart from the WC and Olympics etc.
And about 6 gold medals, that was the point, you can't win 6 golds just like 6 WTF because were talking about a once every 4 years tournament which is also, let's face it, starting to catch the interest of many players. At least that's what I sense since 2008, just look at Nadal's interest, Federer's ambition to play at the '16 OG's and imagine how much Djokovic would want to win a medal for his country as he is very patriotic.
 
NatF said:
The YEC or WTF has always been viewed as a major throughout history. The Olympics has not, nowadays it's treated like a major but it has no history of great champions like the WTF. The YEC is atleast even with it IMO.
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I see. So Agassi, Kafelnikov, Nadal and Murray (all multi-Slam winners) are not great champions in your book?
 
Morj said:
As for why would a pro tennis player want to win SOG over WTF, well that is the easiest question to answer. First off the fact that winning SOG is a huge achievement for your entire country, not just for oneself. The second reason is that SOG has universal value, and is something that can be admired, respected, and appreciated by any individual. Any random person knows how immensely significant a SOG is. WTF is only known to tennis fans.
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So if winning the SOG for your country is so important then why is it not ranked above Wimbledon, RG, USO & AO? You're not representing your country in any of those majors just like the WTF...Should the majors be considered a tier below the Olympics Gold too? :-?:-?
 
The Dark Knight said:
NY TIMES: Federer and Nadal Have Equal Claims on Greatness, for Now

Nadal has won a record eight French Opens on clay, a surface more widely used by tennis players — both professional and recreational — than the grass that has been so friendly to Federer. Nadal also has two important tennis box tops that the 32-year-old Federer is now unlikely to acquire: an Olympic gold medal in singles and a Davis Cup title.
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This is not a debate about who is the greatest of all time. Please don't go off topic.
 
mandy01 said:
Is this a joke? They hype EVERY SINGLE WTF every year! Right from the USO onwards, there is constant coverage of who is likely to make it to the season-ending finale over and over at EVERY tournament. The top two players to qualify for the WTF are always reported all over the news the moment their qualification is issued by the ATP. There are people who keep constant tabs on the Race spots.

Olympics became important starting 2008 when Nadal, Federer and Djokovic, all publicly declared their desire to win it. Before that, nobody bothered.
There's no comparison between the status of AO and Olympics because AO back in those days used to played at the end of the season, around Christmas and players weren't willing to travel halfway across the world at that time. Also, travelling by itself was much harder in those days than it is today and they had to do it for lesser money than what players get today. But AO never lost it's status of a major. Olympics on the other hand, didn't even gain the status of a masters event points-wise.
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Good points. Not to mention tennis wasn't even part of the Olympics for 56 years from 1928 to 1984...Just goes to show important it was to the Olympics committee...
 
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helterskelter said:
Omega,

I agree with almost everything you say, but with one minor exception: you said that you didn't want to list women's winners because there is no tournament to compare the WTF to. That just isn't the case. The women have an almost exactly parallel event. It now follows the same format as the WTF. It used to be a 16-player knockout with a best-of-5 final. (So did the men's version, but it moved to the current format much earlier).
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Oh my bad then. I wasn't aware of this.
 
Mainad said:
I see. So Agassi, Kafelnikov, Nadal and Murray (all multi-Slam winners) are not great champions in your book?
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I said history, I barely count 2008 or especially 2012 as history. 16 top 20 players skipped the Olympics the year Agassi won it. And yes the names who have won the Olympics are generally far less distinguished than the likes of Lendl, Federer, Sampras and Borg. Albeit the Olympics has occured far less times. It's only the last 8 years that it's begun to be seen as a major event. Compare that to 40 years.
 
World Tour Finals are definitely more prestigious but I have to laugh at the posters on here who try to belittle the Olympic gold as somehow insignificant.

I feel reasonably sure that if Federer had won the Olympic singles gold as he has tried to do time and time again, there would not be threads like this trying to argue which is the more important!

Go figure!
 
The Dark Knight said:
Because they don't mention the WTF . They don't care about it!!! Otherwise they wold say "fed has won 6" . But not even a word about this all "important " tournament.

Who cares about "points" if they ain't worth jack in goat debate????
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Who says Nadal doesn't care about the WTF. :roll:


Rafael Nadal has won all four Grand Slams, Olympic Gold and a record 26 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 titles. This week, he hopes to complete his impressive collection with the elusive Barclays ATP World Tour Finals crown.

“This is the title I’m missing,” said the top-seeded Spaniard on Monday in London. “I wish I could get this title.”

Nadal came close to hoisting the season finale trophy three years ago at The O2. He edged Andy Murray in a thrilling semi-final before coming up short against Roger Federer in the championship match.

“Several times I played at a high level here, but I ran into those who are perhaps the best indoor players in history,” he said.

http://www.barclaysatpworldtourfina...tennis/london-finale-2013-nadal-elusive-title
 
Mainad said:
No, Murray is just an also-ran journeyman like Massu or Rosset, isn't he? Obviously the likes of him winning the Olympic title adds no value to the importance of it whatsoever!

Now, if only Federer had managed to win it on that day at Wimbledon in 2012 as he desperately wanted to instead of the likes of Murray. I daresay that would have made it a much more worthy title for your consideration, wouldn't it?

:rolleyes:
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Obviously Murray is no chump...He has potential but he's not even close right now...I'm talking about players like Lendl, Sampras, Agassi, Nadal, Federer, Djokovic...You think Murray is at the same level?
 
Mainad said:
World Tour Finals are definitely more prestigious but I have to laugh at the posters on here who try to belittle the Olympic gold as somehow insignificant.

I feel reasonably sure that if Federer had won the Olympic singles gold as he has tried to do time and time again, there would not be threads like this trying to argue which is the more important!

Go figure!
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I never belittled Olympics Gold...I'mn trying to get reasons as to why people think it is more significant than a WTF or multiple WTF's for that matter.
 
Tony48 said:
Wow, so apparently The Dark Knight has been LYING this whole time.

I found his NY Times article (which he alleged "didn't mention the WTF at all), and here it is:



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/sports/tennis/federer-or-nadal.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0



It wasn't completely ignored. You simply omitted it, hoping that no one would check the facts.

The Dark Knight now has ZERO credibility. I wonder how many of his other articles actually mentioned the WTF (something he says they didn't)
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Tony48 said:
Funny how TDK had to "go to sleep" once he was forced to reveal his sources for everyone else to read.
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Why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:
 
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The Dark Knight said:
Why don't they shut up? Why should allow lies to spread? Why do you stand for it? I think there are nown threen threads of this bs??
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It's a difference of opinion. Nadal fans cannot accept an opinion that goes against their "false God".

I'm not even saying that Olympic Gold is worthless...Just looking for reasons...But apparently you're incapable of thinking independently...Everything has to come from articles on google.
 
Mainad said:
World Tour Finals are definitely more prestigious but I have to laugh at the posters on here who try to belittle the Olympic gold as somehow insignificant.

I feel reasonably sure that if Federer had won the Olympic singles gold as he has tried to do time and time again, there would not be threads like this trying to argue which is the more important!

Go figure!
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I haven't belittled it. I said the WTF is atleast equal to Olympics, I have the WTF a bit ahead. If Federer had won it I wouldn't care so much tbh. He had won Wimbledon the month before a much bigger prize.
 
tennisaddict said:
Roddick not top 10 ?

Fish not top 10 ?

Kohly not top 20 ?

They chose to compete in a 250 during the period.

They said 'too far to travel, focus rather on the American swing'.

LOL.....

The olympics hype is ridiculous out here..
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This is the ATP ranking the week before Olympics took place:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=23.07.2012&r=1&c=#

#22 Andy Roddick
#23 Kohlschreiber, Philipp

Only ONE player within top20 skipped it.
NOBODY in the top10

Stop talking rubbish
 
Firing Forehand said:
This is the ATP ranking the week before Olympics took place:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=23.07.2012&r=1&c=#

#22 Andy Roddick
#23 Kohlschreiber, Philipp

Only ONE player within top20 skipped it.
NOBODY in the top10

Stop talking rubbish
Click to expand...

Oh, what now.. Roddick and Kohly skipping olympics is no big deal ?

Ranking 20 and 23 is nothing ?

Roddick is a major winner and him skipping olympics should tell you something. But I am sure it wont .
 
As we go farther into history, Olympic Gold is going to be very important to the top players because it's known all over the world and because it's rare.

20 years from now, not having an Olympic Gold is going to be a big black mark.
 
The Olympic gold medal is a very minor achievement, in my view. It happens once every four years, so it really matters a lot who happens to be playing well in that particular year and specifically, the month leading into the Olympics. One thing people rarely mention on these boards, despite the tons of Nadal bashing, is that Nadal benefits tremendously from the fact that the clay season is in the first half of the season (just before Wimby) and is the longest uninterrupted stretch of tournament play over a single surface (versus hard court which is split between the first month of the season and then then North American summer hard courts). This gives Nadal a HUGE momentum boost each year because he basically steam rolls through the nearly three month clay season, building huge momentum that by the time Roland Garros is over he has already piled on so many points and mentally put a lot of pressure on this top rivals, and in particular, Federer, to perform during the grass season and the hardcourt season in order to win big tourneys and accumulate points. I honestly believe if the clay season came after the grass and hardcourt season, Nadal would have barely half of his accomplishments today. People really don't realize this but it is absolutely true.

So, back to the Olympics, Nadal is a natural to win because the Olympics are scheduled shortly after the clay season (and after the grass) I guess. It's a nice accomplishment but I wouldn't even put it over a single WTF.
 
wangs78 said:
I honestly believe if the clay season came after the grass and hardcourt season, Nadal would have barely half of his accomplishments today. People really don't realize this but it is absolutely true.
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Why on earth would this matter in a rolling 52-week ranking system? You don't think Nadal has any pressure as the clay-court season approaches because he has to defend like 5000 points?
 
Tony48 said:
OMG. If you (in this case, the NY Times) make the argument that your GOAT status hinges on frickin DAVIS CUP then you automatically lose all credibility in my book.
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Davis Cup is another gap in Federer resume. Smaller than SOG, but still

Besides, Federer COULD have tried harder (he's got Wawrinka, a top10 countryfolk)
It's not like Murray, who will never win it even he did his best
 
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FrontHeadlock said:
As we go farther into history, Olympic Gold is going to be very important to the top players because it's known all over the world and because it's rare.

20 years from now, not having an Olympic Gold is going to be a big black mark.
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Morj said:
As for why would a pro tennis player want to win SOG over WTF, well that is the easiest question to answer. First off the fact that winning SOG is a huge achievement for your entire country, not just for oneself. The second reason is that SOG has universal value, and is something that can be admired, respected, and appreciated by any individual. Any random person knows how immensely significant a SOG is. WTF is only known to tennis fans.
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This is a point that no-one has been able to answer. To all the posters saying SOG is immensely significant (more than any number of WTF's).

So if winning the SOG for your entire country is so important and is so rare/known all over the world, then why is it not ranked above Wimbledon, RG, USO & AO? You're not representing your country in any of those majors just like the WTF...Should the majors be considered a tier below the Olympics Gold too? :-?
 
Firing Forehand said:
Davis Cup is another gap in Federer resume. Smaller than SOG, but still

Besides, Federer COULD have tried harder (he's got Wawrinka, a top10 countryfolk)
It's not like Murray, who will never win it even he did his best
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Federer has played more Davis Cup ties than Nadal. He doesn't just play the ones on his best surface either...Wawrinka has a poor record in Davis Cup and has only this year really matured as a player.
 
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Omega_7000 said:
This is a point that no-one has been able to answer. To all the posters saying SOG is immensely significant (more than any number of WTF's).

So if winning the SOG for your entire country is so important and is so rare/known all over the world, then why is it not ranked above Wimbledon, RG, USO & AO? You're not representing your country in any of those majors just like the WTF...Should the majors be considered a tier below the Olympics Gold too? :-?
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You cant compare. Slams have been there for more than a century.
WTF is a relatively newcomer
 
NatF said:
Federer has played more Olympic ties than Nadal. He doesn't just play the ones on his best surface either...Wawrinka has a poor record in Davis Cup and has only this year really matured as a player.
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He never tried hard enough. He had chances but didnt take them.
Same as with Olympics.
2012 Olympics played on Wimbledon (his pet Slam) was a bespoke tournamente for him. But he failed.
 
Firing Forehand said:
You cant compare. Slams have been there for more than a century.
WTF is a relatively newcomer
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HUH? WTF has still been a LOT older than the Olympics and also has a more storied history of Champions AND a tougher field.
Let's be intellectually honest here. We're not analyzing a tournament by how much emotional value a player attaches to it or Basel would probably be more important than masters events. :lol: The yardstick has to be measured by a tournament's : History, it's level of difficulty, its format, its participation over the years and then emotional variables.
Olympics lags behind WTF in most of these categories.
 
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Firing Forehand said:
He never tried hard enough. He had chances but didnt take them.
Same as with Olympics.
.
Click to expand...
What chances? And really how many ties has Nadal played for Spain? He has actually played much less than Federer and incidently rarely plays away ties AND has a team that can pretty much carry him to a victory. Don't talk out of your derriere.
Roger had no other player to support him for a LONG time. By the time Wawrinka came up he had two kids and enough to worry about.
 
mandy01 said:
HUH? WTF has still been a LOT older than the Olympics and also has a more storied history of Champions AND a tougher field.
Let's be intellectually honest here. We're not analyzing a tournament by how much emotional value a player attaches to it or Basel would probably be more important than masters events. :lol: The yardstick has to be measured by a tournament's : History, it's level of difficulty, its format, its participation over the years and then emotional variables.
Olympics lags behind WTF in most of these categories.
Click to expand...

Histoy argument is weak if you look at AO which was less important than WTF and now is much more.

Same happened with Olympics
 
Omega_7000 said:
This is a point that no-one has been able to answer. To all the posters saying SOG is immensely significant (more than any number of WTF's).

So if winning the SOG for your entire country is so important and is so rare/known all over the world, then why is it not ranked above Wimbledon, RG, USO & AO? You're not representing your country in any of those majors just like the WTF...Should the majors be considered a tier below the Olympics Gold too? :-?
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This makes no sense. Why can't someone take the position that Majors>OSG>WTF?
 
Firing Forehand said:
Histoy argument is weak if you look at AO which was less important than WTF and now is much more.

Same happened with Olympics
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I've already countered this. AO was a major, but it lacked all other components because it was used to be played around Christmas back then.There is no comparison between the two tournaments. Olympics had little significance till 2008 and only two editions of Olympic games will not change that. And even with it's so-called importance NOW, few players have come out and expressly placed premium on OG over WTF. In fact, other than Nadal I seriously doubt anyone regards Olympics as being more important. Especially if a player is not very patriotic.
 
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Omega_7000 said:
Obviously Murray is no chump...He has potential but he's not even close right now...I'm talking about players like Lendl, Sampras, Agassi, Nadal, Federer, Djokovic...You think Murray is at the same level?
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Well, I'm not even sure if Sampras and Agassi are at the same level but one played (and won) the Olympics and the other didn't.

But in any case, why get bogged down in which of these players is better than the others? Murray may not yet be an all-time great but, so what, he is still a great player who has won multiple Slams so why does him winning it add less value to it than Nadal winning it or if Djokovic were to win it?

And I repeat, if Federer had beaten Murray in the 2012 final, would that have made the Olympic singles gold suddenly more respectable in your eyes than the fact that it was 'only' Murray who happened to be the winner on that particular day?
 
SORRY I originally posted this on the other thread!!

If I were to give my reasons of why I would rate the WTF over OG then it would be this.

These are MY REASONS and MY OPINIONS. Not facts obviously!

1. It is worth significantly more points.

Let's think about this for a second. Tournaments are given ranking points based on their importance and difficulty level. Thats why Slams are given 2000 points. Masters are given 1000 and below that you have 500 and 250 and so on and so forth. Now winning the Olympics will give you 750. Winning the WTF on the other hand gives you 1500. In the Olympics you probably will not meet a top 8 player till at least the QF's. Here, every match you play is against one.

2. You have to QUALIFY for it.

Players have to play year round and gain enough points and end the season within the top 8 to qualify for this event. Almost 10 months of struggle = a spot in this tournament. Not even the slams make you work as hard just to get a spot. Only 8 players out of so many others get a chance to play so the difficulty level just to qualify is HUGE.

3. It gets far more coverage, viewership, sponsorship and spectators than the TENNIS Olympics and fans LOVE IT. (Keep in mind not the Olympics as a whole)

Firstly the 02 Arena is the second biggest arena that tennis is played in only after Arthur Ashe Stadium. It can house 17,500 people. The O2 is mainly used for huge concerts and the fact that they are able to hire the place shows they are making big bucks. When I wanted to watch the Olympic tennis matches, I found myself not being able to find the matches on any channel. ESPN didn't have it, Tennis Channel did not have it, nor did most other sports networks. But for the World Tour Finals ESPN had it, Tennis Channel had it, Skysports had it and so did many others. It shows that it is a much BIGGER event with more fans flocking to see it. Boris Becker said it draws more crowds than he had ever seen in non-slam tournaments and just the overall buzz is amazing. He said its an "instant classic". The Olympics on the other hand.....not really that watched. Tennis Olympics that is. Remember its the FAN BASE that has the last word. They carry everything.

4. Tennis is not a nationalistic sport and the Olympics is turning it into one

The beautiful thing about tennis is that you pick your players based on their style, game and personality. Which is quite different from how you pick your football/soccer, American football and Basketball teams. Tennis brings people together because you could be from Mumbai or NYC and still be cheering for the same guy. The problem I have with the Olympics (and Davis Cup) is that it seeks to make the sport a nationalistic thing. Now think about it. Let's say I was British but my favorite player was Roger Federer. So in the Olympics final, if I don't cheer for Andy Murray I basically feel like a traitor or an outcast. The Olympics and Davis Cup create unnecessary divide amongst people. Stop turning Tennis into a nationalistic sport!!

5. Not everyone is that Patriotic

When a person wins Davis Cup or the Olympic Medal then THEY dont win it. The nation does. People in the center court last year were chanting TEAM GB. So if Scotland were to break from the rest of GB (I know it won't happen but for argument's sake) and Andy Murray still felt strongly about Scotland, the gold medal would not follow him. Britain would still keep it. So the point I'm making here is that its not an individual achievement but a national achievement. Nadal has not won Davis Cup. Spain won Davis Cup which Nadal happened to be a part of. That would be like saying Rooney has won the EPL or Ronaldo has won La Liga when it is United and Madrid that have won it. Not everyone is patriotic! its a fact! So why would you try so hard to get a medal which is not really your individual achievement if you are not patriotic to begin with?? WTF is an individual achievement for which you have to qualify for and then win beating the top players. WTF is a common ground for all players. You are playing for YOURSELF and YOU want to win.

6. Most GOAT Candidates (Except Nadal) or Ex GOAT candidates don't have it.
Laver, Rosewall, Pancho, Sampras, Borg, and Federer. But Laver, Rosewall, Sampras and Federer have all won the WTF, WCT or YEC. (not sure about Pancho). So if one has to be used as a measuring stick it has to be an INDIVIDUAL achievement, and something that most of the greats have done IMO.

So in my book, I would rate the WTF over the Gold Medal any day. I would rather win the WTF hands down. Personally!
 
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