Worst matchup ever (rec tennis)

BetaServe

Professional
Player 1: Hit great groundstrokes but can't finish or put away short balls, suck at the net, can't volley, can't smash
Player 2: Fast, consistent, return every ball back

This is one of the most common match-ups at rec tennis level and player 2 is probably the worst opponent for player 1. Player 1 is known as "Dimitrov" of rec tennis - looks good but can't win - and Player 2 is known as "Rafa" of rec tennis - the ultimate pusher who wins ugly.

From my experience, this is what I think Dimitrov should do:
If you're playing a match that is not important to you, then go ahead and "play like Federer" (good for long term improvement)

But if you're playing a match that you can't afford to lose, aka match of your life, first you need to see if you're in the zone that day, if you are, great, you can play freely and you'd probably hit winners from the baseline
Else
There are several things you can do:
- Try to be more consistent than your opponent from the baseline if you think you can be as consistent as him. (if not don't bother)
- Make him attack you, basically reverse the role, you're now Rafa and he's now the Dimitrov.
One of the things you can do is test if he's good at the net, if he's not, draw him in with short balls then lob (yes it works 100% of the time).
- Don't try to hit "too good" shots because "too good" shots will lead to short balls, and short balls are the last thing you want, since you suck at putting away short balls (especially short balls at the service line)
- If you do get short balls, option 1 is try to hit right back at the opponent, forget about down the line approach. Believe it or not, hitting straight back at your opponent is probably more difficult for your opponent because often he won't have enough time to create proper spacing and mishit or hit a bad shot, which you can volley off of that. Option 2, hit it then move back to the baseline. You read that right. You might look stupid but that's your best chance to win the point. The only time you might attempt to hit a normal approach shot is when that short ball is super easy and not too far from the net.
- If you're at the net, notice his passing shots pattern, does he like to hit passing shot to your backhand or forehand? If you picked up his pattern, you can anticipate and move before he hits in order to compensate your lack of volley skills (you have more time to react and set up your volley).
- Drop shot occasionally if you can (if you can't, don't bother)
- If all above don't work, then sorry buddy he's better than you.

@TimeToPlaySets you will probably like this thread.
 
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BetaServe

Professional
Drop-shot lob is the oldest trick in the book. I do it all the time.
Probably one of the biggest weapons at rec level. Most rec players don't practice approach shots and OHs. Which means they can't finish off your short balls and can't smash your lobs.
 
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pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
@BetaServe, are you player 1 or player 2 or neither?

I'm a rec player but I can do smash and volley, and I love hitting approaching shot (whether slices or low fast flat approaching shot away from the opponent) because I always get a short ball to smash that way and I can do this all day, am I an alien?

Also, if I were player 1 or 2, I wouldn't really play a match when I can't have a complete control over the ball, I would train my slices and approaching shot until I'm comfortable doing it all day long.
 

BetaServe

Professional
@BetaServe, are you player 1 or player 2 or neither?

I'm a rec player but I can do smash and volley, and I love hitting approaching shot (whether slices or low fast flat approaching shot away from the opponent) because I always get a short ball to smash that way and I can do this all day, am I an alien?

Also, if I were player 1 or 2, I wouldn't really play a match when I can't have a complete control over the ball, I would train my slices and approaching shot until I'm comfortable doing it all day long.

I have a "bipolar" game style. I can be either 1 or 2, depending on the opponent.
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
"Player 2 is known as "Rafa" of rec tennis - the ultimate pusher who wins ugly."

This is just wrong. If you go watch Rafa in person, you will see the insane amount of pace and spin on his shots.
His opponents are pinned back and on the defensive so much that they rarely have a chance to go on the offensive.
Only a few elite players like Nole and Roger can push Rafa consistently.
Gilles Simon is someone I consider a Player 2 type at pro level.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
"Player 2 is known as "Rafa" of rec tennis - the ultimate pusher who wins ugly."

This is just wrong. If you go watch Rafa in person, you will see the insane amount of pace and spin on his shots.
His opponents are pinned back and on the defensive so much that they rarely have a chance to go on the offensive.
Only a few elite players like Nole and Roger can push Rafa consistently.
Gilles Simon is someone I consider a Player 2 type at pro level.
Look buddy, your opinion might matter when you get a 6.0 serve. But until then, respect your betters.
 

BetaServe

Professional
"Player 2 is known as "Rafa" of rec tennis - the ultimate pusher who wins ugly."

This is just wrong. If you go watch Rafa in person, you will see the insane amount of pace and spin on his shots.
His opponents are pinned back and on the defensive so much that they rarely have a chance to go on the offensive.
Only a few elite players like Nole and Roger can push Rafa consistently.
Gilles Simon is someone I consider a Player 2 type at pro level.

I know that Rafa hits with insane amount of pace/spin. But this is Rafa of rec tennis. Also Rafa chases the ball, Simon doesn't (as much). And Rafa is much faster than Simon. I can't be wrong.
 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
A real "rafa" of rec tennis (assuming rec tennis goes up to 4.5), wouldn't hit moonballs, but would get really good groundstrokes left and right wings, that's your typical semi (or full western) juniors who try to hit a lot of topspin, chase after every ball looks like.


This is a good example of my opinion of "rafa" of rec tennis, both of them are not juniors but are doing similar things.

In my honest opinion, none of them is 4.5, but more close to top 4.0 and around low 4.5
 

BetaServe

Professional
A real "rafa" of rec tennis (assuming rec tennis goes up to 4.5), wouldn't hit moonballs, but would get really good groundstrokes left and right wings, that's your typical semi (or full western) juniors who try to hit a lot of topspin, chase after every ball looks like.


This is a good example of my opinion of "rafa" of rec tennis, both of them are not juniors but are doing similar things.

In my honest opinion, none of them is 4.5, but more close to top 4.0 and around low 4.5

This is 4.5-5.5 level. By rec tennis, I meant more like 3.5 - 4.0. Also why are we debating about names? I gave the description of the player and we all get the idea.
 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
This is 4.5-5.5 level. By rec tennis, I meant more like 3.5 - 4.0.
Like I said, based on my understanding, as it differs region by region, if we goes by the most strict rating, they are not 4.5, but more 4.0-4.5 (some shots are even lower).

If you go and ask any tennis player who actually played in a high level tournament at 5.5+ they would mostly agree that this is not a 4.5 level tennis. (I have done that). Because 5.5 is pro level, 5.0 is college tennis, and if you look at any 5.0 college tennis match you will see the difference.
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
A real "rafa" of rec tennis (assuming rec tennis goes up to 4.5), wouldn't hit moonballs, but would get really good groundstrokes left and right wings, that's your typical semi (or full western) juniors who try to hit a lot of topspin, chase after every ball looks like.


This is a good example of my opinion of "rafa" of rec tennis, both of them are not juniors but are doing similar things.

In my honest opinion, none of them is 4.5, but more close to top 4.0 and around low 4.5
The 4.5 in that video got kicked up to 5.0 and has handled himself well at 5.0.
He played D1 soccer, and has exceptional footwork and speed.
With his movement and defense, he would be a big headache to play against on clay even for a 4.5 - 5.0.
I would guess that he would beat TennisTim on hard court and easily win on clay.
 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
The 4.5 in that video got kicked up to 5.0 and has handled himself well at 5.0.
He played D1 soccer, and has exceptional footwork and speed.
With his movement and defense, he would be a big headache to play against on clay even for a 4.5 - 5.0.
I would guess that he would beat TennisTim on hard court and easily win on clay.
Yea, USTA computer rating is usually accurate but it doesn't gaurantee that all people in the bracket has the same level of skills, you can be a 5.0 rating but at the bottom since you can't win a match.

He has another video facing a D1 player, if D1 is roughly 5.0, then at the most he is 4.5 as he got 6-1, 6-2.
 

BetaServe

Professional
This is the typical mindless 'Dimitrov' (shirt dude) with 4.0 groundstrokes but 2.5 tactics against the pusher:

 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
Yea, USTA computer rating is usually accurate but it doesn't gaurantee that all people in the bracket has the same level of skills, you can be a 5.0 rating but at the bottom since you can't win a match.

He has another video facing a D1 player, if D1 is roughly 5.0, then at the most he is 4.5 as he got 6-1, 6-2.
I doubt there are many 5.0 at D1, maybe a few at the very low end.
Most are 5.5 - 6.0, with some top players at UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc. at 6.5 and even a few at 7.0.
 
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Deleted member 120290

Guest
This is the typical mindless 'Dimitrov' (shirt dude) with 4.0 groundstrokes but 2.5 tactics against the pusher:


(Ignore the title, they're not 4.5)
The shirtless guy in the video is 4.5 if his USTA records support it.
Rating has nothing to do with strokes and everything to do with W-L record.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if if shirtless guy is a legit 4.5.
Look at how hard is to win a point against that guy.
He would be a nightmare to play in the hot sun and wind.
 

BetaServe

Professional
The shirtless guy in the video is 4.5 if his USTA records support it.
Rating has nothing to do with strokes and everything to do with W-L record.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if if shirtless guy is a legit 4.5.
Look at how hard is to win a point against that guy.
He would be a nightmare to play in the hot sun and wind.
Interesting. That makes sense.
 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
I doubt there are many 5.0 at D1, maybe a few at the very low end.
Most are 5.5 - 6.0, with some top players at UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc. at 6.5 and even a few at 7.0.

Yea you are right, depends on the school you have a range 5.5 to 6.5. Maybe 5.0 at the very very low end.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

andreh

Professional
Probably one of the biggest weapons at rec level. Most rec players don't practice approach shots and OHs. Which means they can't finish off your short balls and can't smash your lobs.

Yeah, it's great. Your drop or lob shot doesn't even have to be very good. Run them back and forth between the net and the baseline and they'll get tired too. Rec players aren't usually very fit. Match is lost in the first few games.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
The least OP could have done was put down someone who doesn't actually pulverise the ball on every shot, like Gilles Simon or Santoro.

Hell, Rafa is more offensive than Dimitrov.
Rafa knows when to push, and when to be aggressive.

This is a good one:


And Nadal’s post match interview about pushing vs bashing:

 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
I think a pusher should be called Federer of rec tennis. I mean he is fast, consistent, and get everything back too. And many rec players use wilson racquets, and dress like RF.
 

BetaServe

Professional
This guy probably does not do well in logic class. A lot of sh*t he says are similar to TTPS. Is this TTPS's other account?
I sure look like TTPS.
Well the analogy isn't inaccurate. You certainly have seen Rafa play crazy defense, just like MisterP mentioned. Federer is not known to get everything back like Rafa, he doesn't chase the ball as much as Rafa.
Looks like you didn't do well in your logic class either. You also seem to be majoring in nitpicking as well. Not surprised you're still complaining why you can't get passed 3.5
 
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ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
I sure look like TTPS.
Well the analogy isn't inaccurate. You certainly have seen Rafa play crazy defensive, just like MisterP mentioned. Federer is not known to get everything back like Rafa, he doesn't chase the ball as much as Rafa.
Looks like you didn't do well in your logic class either. You also seem to be majoring in nitpicking as well. Not surprised you're still complaining why you can't get passed 3.5
Top players are at the top because they are all top-notch at defense and offence. Here's an example of federer defense:
You watch that video and tell me if federer gets everything back or not.
I point out that your analogy is not accurate and you turn it to " i don't have to please you guys". That certainly is a sign of sh*t logic.
When you say I don't do well in logic, do you have anything to back it up????
 

BetaServe

Professional
Top players are at the top because they are all top-notch at defense and offence. Here's an example of federer defense:
You watch that video and tell me if federer gets everything back or not.
I point out that your analogy is not accurate and you turn it to " i don't have to please you guys". That certainly is a sign of sh*t logic.
When you say I don't do well in logic, do you have anything to back it up????

Of course every pro can play defensive. But who's known to be more defensive? Who's standing 300 feet behind the baseline? Fed or Ned?

When you say I don't do well in logic, do you have anything to back it up????
Yeah, your post - you saying Fed is just as defensive as Rafa.
 
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ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Of course every pro can play defensive. But who's known to be more defensive? Who's standing 300 feet behind the baseline? Fed or Ned?


Yeah, your post.
So you don't understand sarcasm huh???

They're top-notch at defense and offence, but that doesn't mean everyone is equally defensive and offensive. Logic 101.
Then with that logic, why don't you choose a player that play most defense and no offense to fit in a role of a pusher better? Giles simon, david ferrer ( with all due respect)...
 

BetaServe

Professional
Then with that logic, why don't you choose a player that play most defense and no offense to fit in a role of a pusher better? Giles simon, david ferrer ( with all due respect)...

For one simple reason, Nadal is a much more impressive defensive player than Simon and Ferrer (when he decides to play defence). And that has nothing to do with Nad's ability to play offence.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
For one simple reason, Nadal is a much more impressive defensive player than Simon and Ferrer (when he decides to play defence). And that has nothing to do with Nad's ability to play offence.
So i guess by your definition, a pusher is somebody who has great defense. His offense doesn't matter in the definition, right? Just to make sure.
 

BetaServe

Professional
So i guess by your definition, a pusher is somebody who has great defense. His offense doesn't matter in the definition, right? Just to make sure.
First, I was referring player 2 as someone who runs like a cat and can chase down every ball. When you think of that picture, it reminds you of Rafa's ability to defence. His ability to defence stands out more to me. That's why I call him Rafa of rec tennis.
Simon wouldn't fit player 2 perfectly because Simon was more like a ball passer and not as good as defending.
Second, it's not the main point of the thread. If it was the main point of the thread, I would have said "Rafa when he's playing defense", I didn't because I didn't expect TTW posters to be that nitpicky.
 
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Bender

G.O.A.T.
First, I was referring player 2 as someone who runs like a cat and can chase down every ball. When you think of that picture, it reminds you of Rafa's ability to defence. His ability to defence stands out more to me. That's why I call him Rafa of rec tennis.
Simon wouldn't fit player 2 perfectly because Simon was more like of a ball passer and not as good as defending.
Second, it's not the main point of the thread. If it was the main point of the thread, I would have said "Rafa when he's playing defense", I didn't because I didn't expect TTW posters to be that nitpicky.

A pusher is the kind of player who feeds paceless balls up the middle of the court and lulls opponents into errors. Defensive skills are important, but having good defence isn’t the main characteristic of a pusher.

Rafa may camp well behind the baseline to return a serve but it’s for the purposes of pulverising the ball on the return so that the server has to go on the defence on the first ball. Everything that Rafa does (unless he’s in full retriever mode, which everyone does) is for the purposes of forcing his opponent to play off the back foot or cough up short balls.

A pusher doesn’t try to put himself in an offensive position, but Rafa certainly does—that’s one of several reasons why your analogy doesn’t work. I get that the analogy isn’t the purpose of your thread, but misinformation has no place in a post aiming to provide advice or instruction.
 

BetaServe

Professional
A pusher doesn’t try to put himself in an offensive position, but Rafa certainly does—that’s one of several reasons why your analogy doesn’t work.
I'm not sure if he always does. I have seen some of his matches in his early years, especially against ball bashers, and you could clearly see his main strategy was not letting his opponent hit through him and force his opponent to make mistakes. Statistically, in those matches, you can see most of the points he won were UEs from the opponent.
Btw have you seen one of the Essential Tennis's videos where Ian and Ira debating whether or not Nadal is an ultimate pusher? Unfortunate they removed it.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
So other things put aside, i guess it will be ok for me call pushers Federer's of rec tennis. He gets everything back so it fits the description. You can call them Nadal if you want.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
So other things put aside, i guess it will be ok for me call pushers Federer's of rec tennis. He gets everything back so it fits the description. You can call them Nadal if you want.
I would argue Federer’s backhand return against Isner this past Sunday was the definition of a push. Neutralize with a slow, deep ball to the backhand side.

Pushing works. That doesn’t mean we need to push every shot all the time. Know when to defend and when to attack. To the example in the OP, don’t be player 1 or player 2.
 
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BetaServe

Professional
What are you hoping to accomplish?

J

Just genuinely wanted to share my match experience/strategic advice?
What I'm hoping to accomplish? Be more realistic and know how to play within your limits instead of following one 'universal' strategy that is beyond your abilities. (Ian's style of play instead of Kevin's from ET)
 
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