Worst matchup ever (rec tennis)

BetaServe said:
Just genuinely wanted to share my match experience/strategic advice?
What I'm hoping to accomplish? Be more realistic and know how to play within your limits instead of following one 'universal' strategy that is beyond your abilities. (Ian's style of play instead of Kevin's from ET)
Click to expand...

Ok, you have very bad anxiety, and putting expectations on yourself and dramatizing your matches is hurting your development.

If you are having fun making up storylines and being the main character in your own story then by all means continue, but if you want to get better or have success in matches then this is not the best path.

J
 
J011yroger said:
Ok, you have very bad anxiety, and putting expectations on yourself and dramatizing your matches is hurting your development.

If you are having fun making up storylines and being the main character in your own story then by all means continue, but if you want to get better or have success in matches then this is not the best path.

J
Click to expand...

You misunderstood.
I clearly stated this in my first post that if you're playing normal matches (e.g matches with friends, or even competitive but not super important), then you should play your normal game (good for long term improvement).

The tips I gave are only when you're playing super important matches and can't afford to lose. You shouldn't play beyond what you're capable of if you want to win.
 
Last edited:
J011yroger said:
Ok, you have very bad anxiety, and putting expectations on yourself and dramatizing your matches is hurting your development.

If you are having fun making up storylines and being the main character in your own story then by all means continue, but if you want to get better or have success in matches then this is not the best path.

J
Click to expand...

One thing I learned from Brad Gilbert is that analyzing your strengths/weaknesses vs your opponent's strengths/weaknesses will help you develop the ability to win matches - this is a valuable skill to have.
And this has nothing to do with "not wanting to improve your strokes".
 
BetaServe said:
You misunderstood.
I clearly stated this in my first post that if you're playing normal matches (e.g matches with friends, or even competitive but not super important), then you should play your normal game (good for long term improvement).

The tips I gave are only when you're playing super important matches and can't afford to lose. I can't play beyond what I'm capable of if I want to win.
Click to expand...

You misunderstood.

You said play like Federer.

That's not good for your long term improvement, that's creating a fantasy and removing the stress of actual competition, so you have zero experience in what you dub "super important matches you can't afford to lose," which is also a fantasy.

Why is it a super important match you can't afford to lose? Is someone going to shoot you in the head if you lose? Did you bet all your money and you are going to be homeless if you lose? No, you are being dramatic and creating a fantasy.

J
 
J011yroger said:
You misunderstood.

You said play like Federer.
Click to expand...

I meant play your normal game. I said "play like Federer" (in quotes) because I was referring to "Dimitrov" (their strokes look similar)

J011yroger said:
That's not good for your long term improvement, that's creating a fantasy and removing the stress of actual competition, so you have zero experience in what you dub "super important matches you can't afford to lose," which is also a fantasy.

Why is it a super important match you can't afford to lose? Is someone going to shoot you in the head if you lose? Did you bet all your money and you are going to be homeless if you lose? No, you are being dramatic and creating a fantasy.

J
Click to expand...

1. What's wrong with trying to play the best you can, given what you have? Should we all play mindless tennis with no tactics whatsoever?

2. Am I saying you should play like that forever? No. Your game style will change along with your skills. Eventually you will play the kind of game you desired to play.
I'm not the guy that you assumed me to be - "Guy who just wants to win by doing tricks and does not want to improve". If that were the case, I wouldn't bother improving my technique. I wouldn't bother making 6.0 serve thread.

3. Sorry if I overdramatized, but "Super important matches" simply means "matches I want to win badly".

4. My point: If you want to win, you shouldn't play a 5.0 game if you're a 3.0.
 
Last edited:
BetaServe said:
I meant play your normal game. I said "play like Federer" (in quotes) because I was referring to "Dimitrov" (their strokes look similar)



1. What's wrong with trying to play the best you can, given what you have? Should we all play mindless tennis with no tactics whatsoever?

2. Am I saying you should play like that forever? No. Your game style will change along with your skills. Eventually you will play the kind of game you desired to play.
I'm not the guy that you assumed me to be - "Guy who just wants to win by doing tricks and does not want to improve". If that were the case, I wouldn't bother improving my technique. I wouldn't bother making 6.0 serve thread.

3. Sorry if I overdramatized, but "Super important matches" simply means "matches I want to win badly".

4. My point: If you want to win, you shouldn't play a 5.0 game if you're a 3.0.
Click to expand...

1. You aren't trying to play the best you can if you have one game for practice matches that you completely throw out the window for real matches. The biggest fallacy in rec tennis is that trying to play above your level in practice will raise your level in matches. I don't think either of us is advocating mindless tennis without tactics, and I dare say you are closer to advocating that.

2. I didn't say you don't want to improve, I said you are going about it wrong. In your 6.0 serve and zero other game thread literally everyone told you it wouldn't work and here we are how many months later and it didn't work and you are cooking up another fantasy. Saying don't hit shots that are too good because you will get a short ball back and you are bad at short balls doesn't sound like someone who wants to get better or someone who wants to win just by doing tricks, it sounds like someone who has no idea how to win a match in real life.

3. If there were matches you wanted to win badly you wouldn't be wasting your practice time on a game you don't use in them. Basically you are practicing for fun because you enjoy trying to hit shots above your level (and there is nothing wrong with that) and then someone challenges you because your mouth is bigger than your game you feel disproportionate pressure to beat them and justify that your practice is working.

4. If you are a 3.0 and want to win you should never attempt to hit shots 4 levels above your ability. If you do it's not practice, it's screwing around. If I ran a 30 minute 5k and wanted to improve it would be stupid for me to try to run at a pace to finish in 15 minutes and be exhausted and have to walk after 1k.

J
 
J011yroger said:
1. You aren't trying to play the best you can if you have one game for practice matches that you completely throw out the window for real matches. The biggest fallacy in rec tennis is that trying to play above your level in practice will raise your level in matches. I don't think either of us is advocating mindless tennis without tactics, and I dare say you are closer to advocating that.

2. I didn't say you don't want to improve, I said you are going about it wrong. In your 6.0 serve and zero other game thread literally everyone told you it wouldn't work and here we are how many months later and it didn't work and you are cooking up another fantasy. Saying don't hit shots that are too good because you will get a short ball back and you are bad at short balls doesn't sound like someone who wants to get better or someone who wants to win just by doing tricks, it sounds like someone who has no idea how to win a match in real life.

3. If there were matches you wanted to win badly you wouldn't be wasting your practice time on a game you don't use in them. Basically you are practicing for fun because you enjoy trying to hit shots above your level (and there is nothing wrong with that) and then someone challenges you because your mouth is bigger than your game you feel disproportionate pressure to beat them and justify that your practice is working.

4. If you are a 3.0 and want to win you should never attempt to hit shots 4 levels above your ability. If you do it's not practice, it's screwing around. If I ran a 30 minute 5k and wanted to improve it would be stupid for me to try to run at a pace to finish in 15 minutes and be exhausted and have to walk after 1k.

J
Click to expand...

1. Think of it this way: You just keep what already works well and what doesn't work (yet) in real match. For example, in practice matches, if you're hitting great serves then in real match, you should also keep hitting great serves and not slowing down your serves (so you're not throwing away your serve in real matches). OTOH, if you're missing 90% volleys in practice matches then you should avoid volleying in real matches. You will slowly start volleying in real match as that number of volley mishits decrease (by practicing). Again, it's all about displaying your strengths and prevent yourself from exposing your weaknesses. I don't see anything wrong with that.

2. If you can't finish short balls + your net play are horrible and you lose 99% of the time at the net, please explain how getting short balls will help you win points, how is that "know how to win a match in real life"? It's not smart to lead yourself into scenarios that expose your weaknesses, don't you think? Regarding my serve thread, I'm making really good progress, so don't assume anything yet, many months is nothing, wait for at least a year then you can bash me. Besides I never said I'd get a 6.0 after months, I have at least 10 years ahead of my life, I have enough time to get there.

3. You assume that I will never use what I do in practice in real match. That's not true. You use what already works great and don't use (as often) what doesn't work well yet. The idea is to slowly implement your ideal/practice game into your real game by improving each area of your game. Eventually, you will be able to do well what you want to do with practice.

4. We all agree with that.
 
Imho, I don't think most of us rec players are good enough to properly mix it up during matches. What BetaServe is saying looks good to me on paper, but I just don't see it actually working in a real match. From my experience, using your B game to win a match rarely works. If your A game is to be aggressive from the baseline, winning a match by playing some other way will be very tough. That's true even when that B game is the clear way to go.

I have a fairly aggressive style and whenever I try to just "push it over" or "keep it in play" my shots inevitably end up in the net. I always tense up which just kills the fluidity of the stroke. Of course, this is just my subjective opinion & experience. I know for a fact that there are people who can, indeed, switch styles of play completely. However, those people are pretty rare.
 
Mr_Zorg said:
Imho, I don't think most of us rec players are good enough to properly mix it up during matches. What BetaServe is saying looks good to me on paper, but I just don't see it actually working in a real match. From my experience, using your B game to win a match rarely works. If your A game is to be aggressive from the baseline, winning a match by playing some other way will be very tough. That's true even when that B game is the clear way to go.

I have a fairly aggressive style and whenever I try to just "push it over" or "keep it in play" my shots inevitably end up in the net. I always tense up which just kills the fluidity of the stroke. Of course, this is just my subjective opinion & experience. I know for a fact that there are people who can, indeed, switch styles of play completely. However, those people are pretty rare.
Click to expand...

For me, plans that don't work out well are plans that are beyond your abilities, those are the plans that look good on paper but don't work in real life. If it's within your abilities, it will most likely work.
 
Last edited:
BetaServe said:
2. If you can't finish short balls + your net play are horrible and you lose 99% of the time at the net, please explain how getting short balls will help you win points, how is that "know how to win a match in real life"? It's not smart to lead yourself into scenarios that expose your weaknesses, don't you think?
Click to expand...

Because you have a distorted perception of the match due to your only remembering and overemphasizing certain points.

In reality if you hit a good shot your opponent has a 50% chance of missing instantly so no matter what you are guaranteed to be at least dead even.

Now of that 50% your opponent gets back let's say 50% come back short and 50% come back deep.

We will say it's an even match and give you a 50% chance of winning the ones that come back deep eventually. So your total wins are up to 62.5%

Now 25% of the balls come back short, and you have the idea in your head that you should be ending the point by putting those away which you don't yet have the skill to do so you miss them and it sticks in your head. Instead if you just doinked the short ball back over the net anywhere and came to the net your opponent would miss half of his passes upping your win total to 75%. If you make 1% of the volleys you are up to 75.13%

Since we assume it's an even match if you just hit a normal shot back instead of a good shot it's logical to think that you will win 50% of those points.

If you want to win do you take a 75.13% chance of winning the point or 50%?

J
 
andreh said:
Yeah, it's great. Your drop or lob shot doesn't even have to be very good. Run them back and forth between the net and the baseline and they'll get tired too. Rec players aren't usually very fit. Match is lost in the first few games.
Click to expand...

Rec players also don't usually have the control to consistently execute this strategy.

I would argue that if you can easily implement this strategy, you're simply the better player, not that you're using a superior strategy.
 
J011yroger said:
Because you have a distorted perception of the match due to your only remembering and overemphasizing certain points.

In reality if you hit a good shot your opponent has a 50% chance of missing instantly so no matter what you are guaranteed to be at least dead even.
Click to expand...

What if that's not the reality? What if your "too good" shot is not good enough to cause your opponent to make UEs? Not only that, when you try to hit "too good" shot, you also probably have 50% of overhitting it as well. You didn't take into account the fact that I could miss those too good shots. It wouldn't be 50% in the end.

I'm saying this based on my own experience in the past. Even my "good" shots aren't good enough to cause UEs from my opponent, one reason he's extremely fast and consistent. And 2 common scenarios are: I overhit or I get a short ball (sure he mishits sometimes but not often enough)

When the ball comes back short, if you don't have the skills, you will most likely miss it and it's not just a mental thing, it could just be that you are bad. Besides, mental is also part of the game, if you're not confident at that moment that you can put the ball away, then chances are you will miss it.
Also, did your math take into account there are several scenarios that I could lose the point when getting a short ball:
- I could hit the ball into the net or hit it long
- My opponent lobs and I can't smash
- I hit the ball in but not good enough so he hits a passing shot winner or I miss the volley
- Try to put the ball anywhere in the court, he reaches to the ball cuz he's fast then hits a winner.

There are more losing scenarios than winning scenarios when getting a short ball (given my skills at the net are bad). So, statistically, I should lose more than win at the net (which is proven by my losses)

What's your definition of an even match?
It's not an even match if you expose your weaknesses. Would it be an even match if Nadal play serve-volley like Mischa Zverev against other guys on tour? Don't think so, despite they're all are 7.0.

So when I play the style that suits my opponent, it will become uneven, I'd get trashed. When I play a style that doesn't suit my opponent, it will become even.
I've foolishly played the style that u suggested and lost countless number of times.

I lost enough times by playing the ideal game when my skills weren't ready for it. Probably can't speak for everyone but, at least, that's what happened to me.
 
Last edited:
mucat said:
How can a player with 'great' groundstrokes cannot handle short balls? What is so 'great' about the groundstrokes?
Click to expand...
Used to be me. I hit great groundstrokes from the baseline, but tend to overhit short balls. Luckily, that's not an issue for me anymore.
 
mucat said:
How can a player with 'great' groundstrokes cannot handle short balls? What is so 'great' about the groundstrokes?
Click to expand...

What I see often is an opponent who hits considerably worse when inside the BL and the ball is low/wide. I'd much rather hit an approach that stays out his comfort zone.
 
BetaServe said:
What if that's not the reality? What if your "too good" shot is not good enough to cause your opponent to make UEs? Not only that, when you try to hit "too good" shot, you also probably have 50% of overhitting it as well. You didn't take into account the fact that I could miss those too good shots. It wouldn't be 50% in the end.

I'm saying this based on my own experience in the past. Even my "good" shots aren't good enough to cause UEs from my opponent, one reason he's extremely fast and consistent. And 2 common scenarios are: I overhit or I get a short ball (sure he mishits sometimes but not often enough)

When the ball comes back short, if you don't have the skills, you will most likely miss it and it's not just a mental thing, it could just be that you are bad. Besides, mental is also part of the game, if you're not confident at that moment that you can put the ball away, then chances are you will miss it.
Also, did your math take into account there are several scenarios that I could lose the point when getting a short ball:
- I could hit the ball into the net or hit it long
- My opponent lobs and I can't smash
- I hit the ball in but not good enough so he hits a passing shot winner or I miss the volley
- Try to put the ball anywhere in the court, he reaches to the ball cuz he's fast then hits a winner.

There are more losing scenarios than winning scenarios when getting a short ball (given my skills at the net are bad). So, statistically, I should lose more than win at the net (which is proven by my losses)

What's your definition of an even match?
It's not an even match if you expose your weaknesses. Would it be an even match if Nadal play serve-volley like Mischa Zverev against other guys on tour? Don't think so, despite they're all are 7.0.

So when I play the style that suits my opponent, it will become uneven, I'd get trashed. When I play a style that doesn't suit my opponent, it will become even.
I've foolishly played the style that u suggested and lost countless number of times.

I lost enough times by playing the ideal game when my skills weren't ready for it. Probably can't speak for everyone but, at least, that's what happened to me.
Click to expand...

Video a match and I'll chart it for you and then we will talk.

J
 
pencilcheck said:
A real "rafa" of rec tennis (assuming rec tennis goes up to 4.5), wouldn't hit moonballs, but would get really good groundstrokes left and right wings, that's your typical semi (or full western) juniors who try to hit a lot of topspin, chase after every ball looks like.


This is a good example of my opinion of "rafa" of rec tennis, both of them are not juniors but are doing similar things.

In my honest opinion, none of them is 4.5, but more close to top 4.0 and around low 4.5
Click to expand...
Always kinda felt that the player with that channel overrated themselves, but they are really athletic and make a ton of balls. Either way, their results seem impressive as far as amateur tennis goes.
 
Doubles said:
Always kinda felt that the player with that channel overrated themselves, but they are really athletic and make a ton of balls. Either way, their results seem impressive as far as amateur tennis goes.
Click to expand...
I think they're legit 4.5 and 5.5
 
BetaServe said:
An example: You try to blast a 80mph forehand deep in the corner, a skill only a 5.0 player can do.
Click to expand...
So whats 3.0 about that? Find me a 3.0 that can hit 80mph forehand then we talk.

BetaServe said:
Used to be me. I hit great groundstrokes from the baseline, but tend to overhit short balls. Luckily, that's not an issue for me anymore.
Click to expand...
It simply means your groundstrokes are not as great as you think they are.
 
BetaServe said:
Used to be me. I hit great groundstrokes from the baseline, but tend to overhit short balls. Luckily, that's not an issue for me anymore.
Click to expand...
Skill-wise, the ability to play short balls without many misses (say same level as baseline balls) can be obtained in a pair of training sessions. And those shots will put more pressure on opponent than baseline rally balls due to obvious reasons: wider angles, less time to react. If you ever speak about matches you can’t afford to lose, well, go through those couple of practice sessions before you have next match.
If the issues are mental rather than technical, the best way is to put yourself in those stressful conditions again and again and force yourself to do exactly that thing. So once again, bring the practiced things to life rather than retreat.
 
Jolly is speaking from a complete player perspective with a positive attitude that facing the issues and fix it. It is the right mindset in my opinion to improve as a player. Practice rallies are meant to practice things you are not good at, and find a way to fix it so you can practice to be used in your real matches. However at the same time, you can't just be like, oh because I'm bad at 1-2 things, so I'm going to assume that's how pros are doing it.

Don't look down on Dimitrov btw, he is really really good and he can finish any short balls and close the games 10000% better than how you would ever do right now. Both Nadal and Dimitrov are very complete tennis players, normal 5.0, 5.5+ can't win them no matter what they do. Dimitrov is always playing at the highest level of tennis, that's why you see his flaws, it is only because those flaws are shown when playing against top players such as Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc because they are all geniuses/monsters!

And the reason why Jolly said you have distorted view is because, you can't just use that you thought is the weakness of those players, compare that to your game. Those pros are playing a very different game than what us rec players play at. Jolly should be able to agree with me here, the speed, spin and the angle and accuracy at the high level is just so hard to bare and so hard to return even if they hit straight at you, and now imagine you have to do the same to your opponent while running around for over 1-2 hours.

So what jolly is saying is that, you should stop looking at the pros, and stop using your distorted view of tennis game, and really try to start from the fundamentals. However if you don't want to improve, which is fine, then don't argue back when you know that for players with incomplete skillsets, they can't execute optimal strategy as they lacked options.

For example, I used to have similar distorted view where I keep complaining that everytime I serve "too well", my opponent will always return "to well" that lands always on the baseline and next to my feet and I just can't return it, so I thought maybe I shouldn't serve "too well", because that gives me less time to prepare for the return. I should serve slow. If what I said is true, then I would never improve my serve, since the reasoning is limited based on a lot of wrong assumptions, and if I don't see it past my wrong assumptions, I will always concluded the same.

There is even one time when I was just started tennis, I thought those 50-60 year old slice and continental groundstrokes are well too good, as it skid through the surface and always land in, and my groundstrokes are not good enough to get past them, I once thought that is what higher level tennis looks like. Of course we all know this is old school and not what high level tennis looks like, but this was how I saw tennis, of course now I can easily beat those old geezers without even trying.

Perhaps your viewpoint will change once you improve your skillsets and play more tournaments, but I believe a lot of us is trying to help save you time to not thinking like this for too long so you don't waste your time thinking the distorted way. We are all trying to help you out.

Esp. Jolly, to be honest I think he is really really trying to help you, he doesn't have to go all that time to write that response down.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

FatHead250
Matchup question
Replies
3
Views
388
Bagumbawalla
B
MyFearHand
Rec Players Don't want to Win (Serve and Return + 1)
2
Replies
79
Views
4K
mcs1970
M
time_fly
Best way to hit a short angle: slice or topspin?
Replies
43
Views
2K
ChaelAZ
ChaelAZ
Headshotterer
Footwork question
Replies
6
Views
1K
SystemicAnomaly
SystemicAnomaly
T
Can a good rec player hit a SINGLE winner as good as a pro?
2 3 4
Replies
167
Views
16K
Hi I'm Ray
H
Back
Top