Worst pre-challenge sytem line call - Serena v. Capriati 2004 USO?

[bluetrain4]

I'm watching the Serena v. Capriati QF match from the 2004 USO. First game of the second set call against Serena has to be the worst I've ever seen.

The umpire called it in. The televison replay showed the ball cleary in by inches, yet the umpire overruled to the far sideline giving Capriati break point instead of Serena game point. Serena lost the game (though she got it back to deuce before losing) and the match.

BTW, this is what TWers are referring to when talking about Serena being in shape. (She's definitely improved a lot recently from her low point, but is nowhere near as in shape as she once was) And, this was after her dominant period of 2002-03 when she was probably in even better shape.

Good match. Very good hitting from both sides.

For some reason I like the all green USO surface better than blue/green.

 

[JennyS]

She didn't even overrule. I think the Chair Umpire stopped paying attention and was embarrassed that she said Advantage Capriati instead of Advantage Williams.

 

[Lionheart392]

There were about 5 appallingly bad line calls against Serena in that match. She may be classless at times (or a lot) but I'm surprised at how she kept it together when arguing with the umpire. I would've smacked her (if I was a girl).

 

[drwood]

There were about 5 appallingly bad line calls against Serena in that match. She may be classless at times (or a lot) but I'm surprised at how she kept it together when arguing with the umpire. I would've smacked her (if I was a girl).

This is where Serena haters need to be objective. Serena is never classless ON THE COURT -- its only in her postmatch interviews.

BTW, I was at that match -- the officiating was so horrible they didn't even put the calls on the big screen. No was Kuznetsova wins that year if Serena isn't cheated out of this match.

Here is the You Tube for anyone who wants to see for themselves what this thread is talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtkKdCeQgQM

 

[bluetrain4]

I started this thread not just to discuss the Serena-Capriati line call, but also to get other nominations for the worst pre-challenge system line call. Serena-Capriati was simply my vote.

 

[Chadwixx]

El anouyi vs roddick at like 17-17 in the fifth (not sure exactly but it was towards the end of the match).

Not sure if the challenge system was in place then

 

[Lionheart392]

This is where Serena haters need to be objective. Serena is never classless ON THE COURT -- its only in her postmatch interviews.

BTW, I was at that match -- the officiating was so horrible they didn't even put the calls on the big screen. No was Kuznetsova wins that year if Serena isn't cheated out of this match.

Here is the You Tube for anyone who wants to see for themselves what this thread is talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtkKdCeQgQM

True, she is not a timewaster or a drama queen during matches.
To be honest though I think the 2004 US Open really should've been Davenport's, she was in great form and won all her meetings with the Williams sisters that year (including beating Venus at the same tournament), but the injury really cost her the match with Kuznetsova. Also Serena was definitely screwed over but I don't think it cost her the match really, if she was gonna win then she would have won even with the madness.

 

[drwood]

I started this thread not just to discuss the Serena-Capriati line call, but also to get other nominations for the worst pre-challenge system line call. Serena-Capriati was simply my vote.

There is no other call even close to being as bad as that one during a match...that's why its so memorable.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

Uggh...just watching that vid reminded me of how much of a debacle and travesty those calls were. And the bad part is...that chair umpire (Mariana Alves) is still allowed to work matches. If I did something like that at my job, if I wasn't fired I'd at least be demoted. I understand the concept of 2nd chances, but that was an embarassment to the sport of tennis right there.

At least this led to the eventual start of the challenge system, so I guess something good came from something terrible happening to finally bring change. Thank you Paul Hawkins.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

And yes, Serena was in MUCH better shape back then than she is now.

 

[grafselesfan]

There is no way any human being can be that blind and stupid, atleast not one that was allowed to chair umpire at the U.S Open. I have to imagine it is either a racist chair umpire, or someone who either loves Capriati or really hates Serena for whatever reason.

 

[Claudius]

There is no way any human being can be that blind and stupid, atleast not one that was allowed to chair umpire at the U.S Open. I have to imagine it is either a racist chair umpire, or someone who either loves Capriati or really hates Serena for whatever reason.

She is Mariana Alves. She still umpires.

 

[EtePras]

El anouyi vs roddick at like 17-17 in the fifth (not sure exactly but it was towards the end of the match).

Not sure if the challenge system was in place then

Oh yeah, El Aynaoui would've won the match if they got the call right. It was deuce on Roddick's serve, a bad call went in his favor to get him ad in instead of El Aynaoui's match point, and Roddick lost the point after that to go back to deuce.

...unless you are talking about a different call since this one was not at 17-17 and only missed by an inch.

 

[Fee]

I thought the Serena/Jen problem was more the umpire forgetting the score, not actually making an overrule. If I remember correctly, Alves never actually overruled, she just announced a score that stunned everyone, then looked like a deer in headlights after that.

One bad line call I remember was the Hewitt-Roddick match at the USO back in 2002. The chair umpire overruled a call on the far line (very rarely done) and Andy went ballistic (rightfully so). That was an awesome match, shame it ended on such a low note. If I remember correctly, it was clearly out and the chair should never have overruled. I can't remember the guys name but I think he was out of umpiring within a few years.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

I thought the Serena/Jen problem was more the umpire forgetting the score, not actually making an overrule. If I remember correctly, Alves never actually overruled, she just announced a score that stunned everyone, then looked like a deer in headlights after that.

One bad line call I remember was the Hewitt-Roddick match at the USO back in 2002. The chair umpire overruled a call on the far line (very rarely done) and Andy went ballistic (rightfully so). That was an awesome match, shame it ended on such a low note. If I remember correctly, it was clearly out and the chair should never have overruled. I can't remember the guys name but I think he was out of umpiring within a few years.

Here's the vid from that match. Roddick was so young back then. Back when Roddick/Hewitt was thought to be the next big rivalry, before a guy named Federer came along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sr3A10qZkE

 

[Moose Malloy]

There is no other call even close to being as bad as that one during a match...that's why its so memorable

Don't know about that. In the dark ages of the 70s/80s, there were lots of pretty bad misses by officials(there was a reason Mac, Connors, & Lendl were so grumpy all the time - and it wasn't just 'gamesmanship' that so many are quick to say today)

I have a ton of matches from that time. It seems like in every other match the umpires or linesman are doing something really stupid. Quality of officiating has gone up considerably since then(touring umpires were not common until the mid to late 80s - who knows where they got umpires at some of these events. Wimbledon was really stubborn in this aspect, its odd to see elderly non atp umpires - who served in WWII, as BBC commentators were quick to point out - trying to officiate important matches between multimillionaire young superstars like Borg, Jimmy, etc)

Borg got royally screwed on a bad call in the '80 USO final, 5th set. He made some errors shortly after to get broken. When Borg played Mac later that year in the Masters, he got screwed again, & Mac intentionally hit a return in the stands to make up for that call.

Was just watching the '86 W SF between Lendl & Zivojinovic(love his serve)
In the 4th set, break point for Bobo (after numerous bad calls against Bobo) the umpire overruled a clear fault(on his side of the court) & credited Lendl with an ace(Lendl was already going back to hit a 2nd serve)

NBC's replays clearly showed the serve to be at least 6 inches out. The crowd went nuts, Bobo sat down in his chair & said "I no play" or something, got a time violation, before going back to play.

Even Collins, who's reluctant to critcize umpires was disturbed by this (he said it was justice that Bobo eventually won that set)

Also the British umpire mispronounced 'Zivojinovic' every single time during the match(inciting loud laughter from the crowd, which really got annoying, esp when it was right after a great point in a crucial time)

 

[EtePras]

And people need to stop bringing affirmative action into tennis forums. It's already corrupting institutions of education and the workplace, why should it be allowed to spread to tennis? Capriati won that match fair and square like a true champion, while Serena lost like the whining classless noob she's always been.

 

[drwood]

And people need to stop bringing affirmative action into tennis forums. It's already corrupting institutions of education and the workplace, why should it be allowed to spread to tennis? Capriati won that match fair and square like a true champion, while Serena lost like the whining classless noob she's always been.

As usual, your posts are neither humorous nor educational

 

[Bloodshed]

I'm nowhere near a Serena fan but those calls are absolutely despicable.

The umpire should be ashamed of herself. Knowing that Serena got screwed 5times in that match just goes to show you how it was seriously fixed for Capriati to beat her. If there was a WTA match investigation to be checked, they should of checked that one.

As much as I dislike Serena, you have to feel sorry for her on that night.

 

[Warriorroger]

I remember a match between Venus Williams and Karoline Sprem, where something weird happen. Sprem 1st service was out or a let, so Venus just hit the ball back towards the net/ballboy and the umpire gave the point (I thought it was the tiebreak) to Sprem. Don't know if there's a clip of it.

PS Yes Serena (as much as I don't like her), was cheated here and I felt sorry for her, but also it made me realise that Capriati is not such a nice girl.

 

[Ryan L]

Jaime Oncins against Mats Wilander at the US Open.
Mats Wilander hits a ball a feet over the baseline, linesman and umpire don't do anything, Oncins freaks out and loses the match.

 

[Deuce]

The extremely unfortunate thing is that, with the introduction of this ShotSpot/HawkEye toy, the emotional/psychological element of being able to overcome bad calls has been eliminated.
This was at times an important factor in the way a match would play out - how one player handled 'adversity' vs. how their opponent would handle it.
Emotional and psychological elements like this are extremely important elements in tennis.

But the powers that be in tennis have decided to render obsolete and unimportant these elements in this context - in favour of a... marketing cartoon...

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

The extremely unfortunate thing is that, with the introduction of this ShotSpot/HawkEye toy, the emotional/psychological element of being able to overcome bad calls has been eliminated.
This was at times an important factor in the way a match would play out - how one player handled 'adversity' vs. how their opponent would handle it.
Emotional and psychological elements like this are extremely important elements in tennis.

But the powers that be in tennis have decided to render obsolete and unimportant these elements in this context - in favour of a... marketing cartoon...

Or in favor of getting calls correct every time? There's enough going on out there than players shouldn't have to worry about bad calls ruining the match. I don't see that anyone could be of the opinion that the challenge system is anything but great for tennis.

Emotional element of overcoming bad calls? That's the dumbest reason I've ever heard as to why shotspot's a bad thing. It's been great for tennis. And that night the only player that had to handle 'adversity' was Serena due to 5 TERRIBLE line calls that helped determine the outcome of the match. How is that fair? How is it Serena's fault that FIVE CALLS went against her?

 

[Rippy]

The extremely unfortunate thing is that, with the introduction of this ShotSpot/HawkEye toy, the emotional/psychological element of being able to overcome bad calls has been eliminated.
This was at times an important factor in the way a match would play out - how one player handled 'adversity' vs. how their opponent would handle it.
Emotional and psychological elements like this are extremely important elements in tennis.

But the powers that be in tennis have decided to render obsolete and unimportant these elements in this context - in favour of a... marketing cartoon...

There's still handling adversity - ie, your opponent playing better than you. There's no need to force players to handle unfair calls.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

OP: your lead-off is the best example I can think of. Good choice.

As usual, your posts are neither humorous nor educational

...and filled with racial issues...like he once was ranting about blacks (what else?) and had a Freudian Slip by referring to Blake as "Black."

 

[Rob_C]

Uggh...just watching that vid reminded me of how much of a debacle and travesty those calls were. And the bad part is...that chair umpire (Mariana Alves) is still allowed to work matches. If I did something like that at my job, if I wasn't fired I'd at least be demoted. I understand the concept of 2nd chances, but that was an embarassment to the sport of tennis right there.

At least this led to the eventual start of the challenge system, so I guess something good came from something terrible happening to finally bring change. Thank you Paul Hawkins.

She did get demoted, She had to work smaller tournaments for a few years, I believe, to earn her way back.

I think she might have even chaired one of Serena's matches in the past year or two.

 

[shazbot]

Why didn't Capriati tell the umpire it was clearly in? She was only 5 feet from the ball, and obviously knew it was in.

I never understood why players just stay quiet on such obvious mistakes.

 

[Ambivalent]

That is not tennis attire.

 

[deddied]

And people need to stop bringing affirmative action into tennis forums. It's already corrupting institutions of education and the workplace, why should it be allowed to spread to tennis? Capriati won that match fair and square like a true champion, while Serena lost like the whining classless noob she's always been.

Yeah. Whatever. When the chair overruled that call, Capriati didnt do a thing, knowing that the ball was in.:shock: Good job for a "true champion".

 

[woodrow1029]

Why didn't Capriati tell the umpire it was clearly in? She was only 5 feet from the ball, and obviously knew it was in.

I never understood why players just stay quiet on such obvious mistakes.

It's the umpire's call. Capriati isn't in anyway obligated to correct the call.

 

[woodrow1029]

She didn't even overrule. I think the Chair Umpire stopped paying attention and was embarrassed that she said Advantage Capriati instead of Advantage Williams.

She did overrule it. I was in the umpires' lounge watching on the closed circuit tv. The only sound you can hear on the closed circuit is the umpire. In the press conferences and highlights as the week went on, they showed the closed circuit replay where you could hear her say out.

If she had just said Advantage for the wrong player without overruling, she would have just corrected the score.

 

[rod99]

Why didn't Capriati tell the umpire it was clearly in? She was only 5 feet from the ball, and obviously knew it was in.

I never understood why players just stay quiet on such obvious mistakes.

why should she? in basketball, if a player obviously travels and there is no call, the opponent sure isn't going to go up to the ref and admit he traveled. that's not capriati's responsibility. if i'm capriati and serena's ball landed inside the serve box and was called out, i'm not saying anything and i wouldn't expect the opposite favor to be returned.

 

[woodrow1029]

There is no way any human being can be that blind and stupid, atleast not one that was allowed to chair umpire at the U.S Open. I have to imagine it is either a racist chair umpire, or someone who either loves Capriati or really hates Serena for whatever reason.

Or none of the above.

 

[Tony48]

LMAO. I was watching this match last night on The Tennis Channel. If I were Serena, I would have cracked that umpire's head with my racquet. That was total BS.

 

[woodrow1029]

Or in favor of getting calls correct every time? There's enough going on out there than players shouldn't have to worry about bad calls ruining the match. I don't see that anyone could be of the opinion that the challenge system is anything but great for tennis.

Emotional element of overcoming bad calls? That's the dumbest reason I've ever heard as to why shotspot's a bad thing. It's been great for tennis. And that night the only player that had to handle 'adversity' was Serena due to 5 TERRIBLE line calls that helped determine the outcome of the match. How is that fair? How is it Serena's fault that FIVE CALLS went against her?

You obviously don't know who you are talking to then. Anything that makes things go much smoother and he is against it.

The thing is that at that point in time, the reason ShotSpot/Hawkeye wasn't in use was that it had a 3 INCH margin of error. Not 3 mm, not 3 cm. 3 INCHES. Cyclops (machine used to call service lines at that time) was generally not overruled because we were told not to overrule it unless it was an OBVIOUS MALFUNCTION. Obviously, that has a certain degree of subjectivity, but the chair umpire was right to not overrule the service calls in that match. The 2 calls that were "really wrong" by the chair umpire were the far side overrule, and the non overrule on the left baseline.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

I'm with JIm Courrier on this subject. any player complainting about one bad call should shut that trap and concentrate on not making UE and DF...

it's them making 99% of the mistakes on the match!

 

[drwood]

why should she? in basketball, if a player obviously travels and there is no call, the opponent sure isn't going to go up to the ref and admit he traveled. that's not capriati's responsibility. if i'm capriati and serena's ball landed inside the serve box and was called out, i'm not saying anything and i wouldn't expect the opposite favor to be returned.

Then you're much worse of a sportsman than Roddick.

 

[rod99]

Then you're much worse of a sportsman than Roddick.

in that kind of situation, yes i am. these guys/girls aren't playing to see who wins the ladder at the local club. they're playing for a lot of money, rankings, endorsements, etc. if the umpire calls my opponent's shot out, then i'm in agreement no matter where it actually landed.

maybe if roddick would shut his mouth when he gets (or thinks he gets) a bad call, then he'd have more than 1 slam. i've never seen anyone since mcenroe that has to have a smart-a@@, running dialogue with the chair umpire over any close call.

 

[woodrow1029]

I'm with JIm Courrier on this subject. any player complainting about one bad call should shut that trap and concentrate on not making UE and DF...

it's them making 99% of the mistakes on the match!

Well said..

 

[Deleted member 21996]

bad luck WTA site doesnt have match stats so i could look at Serena's (and Jenny's) UE & DF...

 

[フェデラー]

the fact that capriati took so much pride and joy in winning that match is pretty sad.

 

[lordmanji]

i remember watching this match. the announcers and everyone were disgusted with the line calls and the overrules or lack thereof by the chair. maria alves i think? but be thankful it happened since it led to the challenge system being pushed through.

 

[drwood]

in that kind of situation, yes i am. these guys/girls aren't playing to see who wins the ladder at the local club. they're playing for a lot of money, rankings, endorsements, etc. if the umpire calls my opponent's shot out, then i'm in agreement no matter where it actually landed.

That's not what Roddick does...he actually lost a match b/c he correctly overruled a wrongly called DF on Verdasco match point up -- Verdasco went on to win the match. Playing for money/rankings/endorsements is a poor excuse for bad sportsmanship. Period. If you can't be trusted to do the right thing when little is on the line, then you won't do the right thing when a lot is on the line.

 

[boredone3456]

the fact that capriati took so much pride and joy in winning that match is pretty sad.

Yes it was. I am not a big Serena fan, but that whole match was really disgusting and disgraceful. I was rooting for Dementieva the entire time during the following round and found it a little amusing that Capriati blew what seemed like a million break points against an injured, poor serving Dementieva, including about 7 of them in 1 game alone. Capriati was playing quite well as the match against Serena progressed, but the calls were appaulling and the fact that Capriati said nothing was sad. Yes serena didn't lose all because of those calls, Jenn was playing pretty good, but it was still disgraceful.

 

[rod99]

That's not what Roddick does...he actually lost a match b/c he correctly overruled a wrongly called DF on Verdasco match point up -- Verdasco went on to win the match. Playing for money/rankings/endorsements is a poor excuse for bad sportsmanship. Period. If you can't be trusted to do the right thing when little is on the line, then you won't do the right thing when a lot is on the line.

yes, he did do that in the verdasco match, but he also acts like a spoiled brat when he feels that he's received a wrong call.

look at all other sports: football (american and soccer), basketball, baseball, hockey, etc etc). have you ever seen a situation when a player receiving a benefitical call stops play and admits it? no, of course not. it doesn't matter if it's an individual sport or not. if the refs/ump doesn't call it then it's not your obligation to make the call, just like it's not the ref/ump's obligation to play the game.

 

[drwood]

yes, he did do that in the verdasco match, but he also acts like a spoiled brat when he feels that he's received a wrong call.

look at all other sports: football (american and soccer), basketball, baseball, hockey, etc etc). have you ever seen a situation when a player receiving a benefitical call stops play and admits it? no, of course not. it doesn't matter if it's an individual sport or not. if the refs/ump doesn't call it then it's not your obligation to make the call, just like it's not the ref/ump's obligation to play the game.

If it was an obligation, it wouldn't require sportsmanship. Its doing the right thing when you don't have to which defines truly great sportsmanship.

 

[rod99]

If it was an obligation, it wouldn't require sportsmanship. Its doing the right thing when you don't have to which defines truly great sportsmanship.

to each their own. i'm just saying that if i'm up 6-5 in the 5th set tiebreaker of the US Open finals and the umpire calls my opponent's shot out, then i'm running up to the net to shake hands regardless of where the ball actually landed.

 

[drwood]

to each their own. i'm just saying that if i'm up 6-5 in the 5th set tiebreaker of the US Open finals and the umpire calls my opponent's shot out, then i'm running up to the net to shake hands regardless of where the ball actually landed.

And your poor sportsmanship will be exposed by the challenge system, you'll be booed and likely choke away the tiebreak 8-6 as a consequence.

 

[rod99]

And your poor sportsmanship will be exposed by the challenge system, you'll be booed and likely choke away the tiebreak 8-6 as a consequence.

i was referring to the pre-challenge era.

i guess maradona should have gone up to the ref and admitted he touched the ball that led to the Hand of God goal in the 1986 world cup? please.

 

[drwood]

i was referring to the pre-challenge era.

i guess maradona should have gone up to the ref and admitted he touched the ball that led to the Hand of God goal in the 1986 world cup? please.

Let me guess...you don't think its wrong to steal from someone as long as you don't get caught, right?