Worst R1 flame-outs at a slam after a good warm-up season beforehand?

BorgTheGOAT said:
They played another friendly in my home town Cologne in 1993 with Germany winning 2-1. Overall Germany mostly lost to Brazil though, they are 5-13 but of course the 7-1 overshadows everything.
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I also remember a friendly a few years before the 1998 World Cup as well, with both teams pretty much at full strength, and Ronaldo scoring the winning goal.

Brazil were outrageously lucky to reach that semi-final in 2014 in the first place. During their opening match against Croatia, Neymar should have been sent off for elbowing Modric, their 2nd goal came thanks to a penalty that shouldn't have been awarded, and then Croatia had what would have been an equalising goal wrongly disallowed for a foul. They were very fortunate to top the group, and then unconvincingly scrape past Chile and Colombia. IMO Colombia were the better footballing team, but Brazil continually and cynically fouled them. Thiago Silva picked up a ridiculous and unnecessary yellow card, meaning that he was suspended for the Germany game. He is probably happy he can say that he wasn’t on the pitch for the Mineirazo though.
 
Mustard said:
It used be a very noteable and strange stat before the 2002 World Cup final that Brazil and Germany (or West Germany) had never met at the World Cup, although East Germany did play Brazil at the 1974 World Cup.
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It definitely was. They were close in 1970 and 1986.
 
Gizo said:
I also remember a friendly a few years before the 1998 World Cup as well, with both teams pretty much at full strength, and Ronaldo scoring the winning goal.
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Yep in Stuttgart with Brazil winning 2-1. It was during my all-time high as a Brazil fan with the Ro-Ro attacking duo. It was actually in 1998 itself and the last game of Romario and Ronaldo playing together I think (could be that they played in the 0-1 loss to Argentina few weeks later, to lazy to look it up).
Edit: looked it up they actually did play both against Argentina.
 
Mustard said:
It used be a very noteable and strange stat before the 2002 World Cup final that Brazil and Germany (or West Germany) had never met at the World Cup, although East Germany did play Brazil at the 1974 World Cup.


And Romario's Barcelona team got hammered by AC Milan in the 1994 Champions League final, 4-0.
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Dejan Savicevic! ;)
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
He won golden boot. And sent Germany home in the quarters.
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Davor Suker's most famous match was at Euro 96, when Croatia beat Denmark 3-0. Suker embarrassed Peter Schmeichel badly on the day, and almost lobbed him from the half way line too. Germany beat Croatia 2-1 at Euro 96.

Schmeichel was strange in the sense that at his best he was the greatest goalkeeper that I've ever seen, but he also had the occasional match, or the occasional run of matches, where he would be badly embarrassed. He once conceded 11 goals in 2 matches for Manchester United, a 5-0 loss to Newcastle and a 6-3 loss to Southampton.
 
Gizo said:
I also remember a friendly a few years before the 1998 World Cup as well, with both teams pretty much at full strength, and Ronaldo scoring the winning goal.

Brazil were outrageously lucky to reach that semi-final in 2014 in the first place. During their opening match against Croatia, Neymar should have been sent off for elbowing Modric, their 2nd goal came thanks to a penalty that shouldn't have been awarded, and then Croatia had what would have been an equalising goal wrongly disallowed for a foul. They were very fortunate to top the group, and then unconvincingly scrape past Chile and Colombia. IMO Colombia were the better footballing team, but Brazil continually and cynically fouled them. Thiago Silva picked up a ridiculous and unnecessary yellow card, meaning that he was suspended for the Germany game. He is probably happy he can say that he wasn’t on the pitch for the Mineirazo though.
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Yeah they were pretty much ****. Once Neymar and Thiago Silva were out I knew that they would never ever beat Germany. Also embarrassed themselves against Netherlands in the third place match.
 
alexio said:
davor suker was epic at one of world cups, i believe it was in 98 if im not mistaken:)
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That Croatian team was incredible and, in my opinion, probably their best (even compared to Modric's era). They were a bit unlucky not to reach the finals, there were some controversies about their manager's decision to not let Prosinecki (until basically the last minute) against France (they led 1-0, lost 1-2 in the end), which could've been a game changer.

Still, Suker, Boban, Prosinecki, Boksic, Bilic, Stimac, Stanic...a fantastic squad.
 
Mustard said:
Schmeichel was strange in the sense that at his best he was the greatest goalkeeper that I've ever seen, but he also had the occasional match, or the occasional run of matches, where he would be badly embarrassed. He once conceded 11 goals in 2 matches for Manchester United, a 5-0 loss to Newcastle and a 6-3 loss to Southampton.
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A little similar to Oliver Kahn. He played incredible games but also blundered a lot of times. The one in the 2002 final is the most famous but there are countless more. Against Turkey in EC qualies 2000, against Werder Bremen in 2004 close to season end, which costs them the title, against Real Madrid in one of their UCL encounters.
 
never thought about that but i wonder what were the odds before 98 final, perhaps brazil was the fav hmm
 
Martin J said:
That was a fantastic performance by Croats, though the red card for Germany did play a role. Before that, they were pretty much even if I recall.
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Berti Vogts made a complete idiot out of himself after the match about that red card grousing that the referee was the only reason for them losing the match and bubbling about conspiracy theories that German football had been to successful therefore FIFA had bribed the referee. He had to apologise after much backlash.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Sure they were. Maybe more because of the name and history (France was a zero WC winner at that time) than what they did at the tournament. Then again, France was not convincing either in KO stage.
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i remember a bit the way i was crying that day haha, coz wanted so bad brazil to win but it wasnt their day, that was one of those childish memories as a fan, another one was when manchester scored those two late goals vs bayern in 99, although i was happy they bounced back and won it two years later vs valencia where kahn was shining
 
alexio said:
i remember a bit the way i was crying that day haha, coz wanted so bad brazil to win but it wasnt their day, that was one of those childish memories as a fan, another one was when manchester scored those two late goals vs bayern in 99, although i was happy they bounced back and won it two years later vs valencia where kahn was shining
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Lol I cried weeks after it still. After 2002 I got calm and basically ended my fandom. At the latest after 2006 and the end of the great generation it was over.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Lol I cried weeks after it still. After 2002 I got calm and basically ended my fandom. At the latest after 2006 and the end of the great generation it was over.
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what you think, whos greater schumacher or hamilton
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Hamilton likely but have them both below Senna.
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i prefer schumi above both honestly, comparing senna and schumi i think the latter is slightly more complete pack, even though purely on one lap senna is better/faster
 
Mustard said:
Yes, Mauresmo won both the Australian Open and Wimbledon in 2006 very impressively. Yet even that year, at the French Open, after winning the first set of her fourth round match, she played two horrible sets against Vaidisova to exit the tournament.
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French players have vastly underperformed at RG. That’s why Noah winning in 83 was such a big deal.
 
Quaichang said:
French players have vastly underperformed at RG. That’s why Noah winning in 83 was such a big deal.
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Mary Pierce won the women's in 2000, representing France, although she's a citizen of 3 countries in France, Canada and the USA. She was born in Canada to a French mother and American father, and was largely raised in the US. She famously struggled to give a speech in French when runner-up of the 1994 French Open, which was a bit embarrassing. She had corrected that by 2000.
 
alexio said:
i prefer schumi above both honestly, comparing senna and schumi i think the latter is slightly more complete pack, even though purely on one lap senna is better/faster
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Schumi was a very unsympathetic guy who would have got lots of **** by German media if at one point his success would have ended. The intentional attack on Villeneuve was only one of his dirty actions, he even was very harsh on his brother Ralf all the time. I grew up 10 kilometers from where Schumacher’s parents had their card driving. I went there just two months ago with some colleagues. Schumi used to frequent a nightclub in Cologne near the Cologne cathedral where he once got punched in the face by another guest.
 
Mauresmo would have done better at the clay court grand slam, if it had been held in any other country apart from France. It was painful watching her crumble there year after the year.

Henman talked about how he thought that she faced far greater pressure at RG, than he did at Wimbledon. When she struggled and failed to live up to the expectations placed on her in Paris, quite a few fans previously cheering for her vociferously, would then turn on her and boo her.

She reached 0 semi-finals and just 2 quarter-finals at RG in 15 appearances, both of which she lost in straight sets (only winning a combined total of 10 games across those 4 sets). It's a struggle to think of examples of other female players underachieving so much at a particular grand slam as she did at RG, relative to their ability on its surface.

Sabatini not reaching a single final at RG stood out, but at least she reached 5 semi-finals, which she lost against Evert, Graf (twice) and Seles (twice), and was very competitive in 2 out of those 5 semi-finals in 1987 (when she led 5-3 in the final set) and 1992. So IMO Mauresmo definitely underachieved more at RG than she did. Manuela Maleeva not reaching any semi-finals at RG during her career was a shame. But she reached 4 quarter-finals there to Mauresmo's 2, and had a break point to go 5-1 up in the final set against Seles in their 1990 QF.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Schumi was a very unsympathetic guy who would have got lots of **** by German media if at one point his success would have ended. The intentional attack on Villeneuve was only one of his dirty actions, he even was very harsh on his brother Ralf all the time. I grew up 10 kilometers from where Schumacher’s parents had their card driving. I went there just two months ago with some colleagues. Schumi used to frequent a nightclub in Cologne near the Cologne cathedral where he once got punched in the face by another guest.
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haha nice story about punching, yea maybe but senna also wasnt a poor lamb, he used it too (dirty tricks), and maybe schumi was thinking if senna can do it why i cant, not sure of course, but it can be true too, those thoughts in his head
 
Gizo said:
Sabatini not reaching a single final at RG stood out, but at least she reached 5 semi-finals, which she lost against Evert, Graf (twice) and Seles (twice), and was very competitive in 2 out of those 5 semi-finals in 1987 (when she led 5-3 in the final set) and 1992.
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Sabatini led Seles 4-2 in the third set of their 1992 French Open semi against Seles, having recently beaten Seles in the 1992 Rome final. Seles then went into high intensity attack mode to win 4 games in a row.
 
Mustard said:
Davor Suker's most famous match was at Euro 96, when Croatia beat Denmark 3-0. Suker embarrassed Peter Schmeichel badly on the day, and almost lobbed him from the half way line too. Germany beat Croatia 2-1 at Euro 96.

Schmeichel was strange in the sense that at his best he was the greatest goalkeeper that I've ever seen, but he also had the occasional match, or the occasional run of matches, where he would be badly embarrassed. He once conceded 11 goals in 2 matches for Manchester United, a 5-0 loss to Newcastle and a 6-3 loss to Southampton.
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Man United's funky kit met its death in the 3-6.
 
Moose Malloy said:
FYI, Witsken is Ben Shelton's uncle(Ben's mom is his sister - she was a highly ranked junior)

Witsken passed away before Ben was born. Witsken also upset Connors at '86 USO, ending Connors' streak of 12 straight USO SFs.

On a smaller level, Korda won Long Island in spectacular fashion the week before '92 USO, straight setting Edberg and Lendl(he also won DC that summer). Commentator Barry McKay picked #6 seed Korda to win the USO, but he lost in 5 in the 1st round to Emilio Sanchez (who would have been seeded if they had 32 seeds then)

Philippoussis won '97 Queens, but got a brutal first round at Wimbledon, where he lost to Rusedski (again, he would have been seed with 32 seeds)

Bruguera in '91 had a great CC season, winning MC and Estoril, finals of Barcelona, SF at Rome, was #5 seed at RG but had to retire in the 2nd round.

#5 seed Serena won Charleston and Madrid in '12 but lost first round of RG to Razzano.
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Witsken could play. Not a big game, but he was very crafty and consistent out there, and was quick to take
advantage if the opponent didn't bring their A game. I really enjoyed watching him play, and it's sad that
he died so young- of brain cancer, IIRC.
 
Poisoned Slice said:
Man United's funky kit met its death in the 3-6.
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That was 6 months earlier, in the previous season, when Southampton won 3-1.

Both matches were at The Dell. The 3-1 was on 13 April 1996 (where the grey shirts were replaced at half-time with the blue and white shirts, when United were 3-0 down). The 6-3 was on 26 October 1996.
 
Mustard said:
Edberg in 1990 immediately comes to mind. He lost to Becker in the semi final of 1990 Queen's Club, then won 1990 Wimbledon (beating Becker in the final), then won 1990 Los Angeles, then won 1990 Cincinnati (avenging the previous year's loss to Gilbert, and becoming world number 1, replacing Lendl at the top), then won 1990 Long Island. Edberg was on a 21 wins in a row streak, and then lost in straight sets in the first round of the 1990 US Open against Volkov. Earlier in the year, Edberg had also lost in the first round of the 1990 French Open, in straight sets, to Bruguera.
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I remember Edberg in the 1990 US Open as well. Edberg seemed red hot going into the tournament.
 
Volkov, a lefty whose playing strengths included his return and passing shots, had the game to cause Edberg plenty of problems. It was a fun match-up.

In addition to the straight sets 1990 US Open win, Volkov also beat him at Tokyo in 1992, nearly beat him at Long Island in 1993 (he only converted 3 break points out of 18), and held a match point against in him the 1994 Davis Cup final after fighting back from 2 sets to love down.

During their SF in Stockholm later on in 1990, Volkov led 5-2 in the opening set, before Edberg fought back to win it and then cruised through the 2nd set.
 
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Gizo said:
Volkov, a lefty whose playing strengths included his return and passing shots, had the game to cause Edberg plenty of problems. It was a fun match-up.

In addition to the straight sets 1990 US Open win, Vo;kov also beat him at Tokyo in 1992, nearly beat him at Long Island in 1993 (he only converted 3 break points out of 18), and held a match point against in him the 1994 Davis Cup final after fighting back from 2 sets to love down.

During their SF in Stockholm later on in 1990, Volkov led 5-2 in the opening set, before Edberg fought back to win and then cruised through the 2nd set.
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Good stuff, Gizo- thanks.
 
Hard Court said:
I remember Edberg in the 1990 US Open as well. Edberg seemed red hot going into the tournament.
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I remember as a kid I didn’t know who Edberg was as I had just started watching. The announcers during Agassi’s 4th round match seemed surprised he lost.
 
Mustard said:
I'm pretty sure that Colombia were favourites. It was even mentioned in a 1997 "France 98" book about World Cup history that I bought.

Brazil and Germany, especially Germany, was going with the safe bet of history.
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BorgTheGOAT said:
Not trying to get into semantics here but even if maybe not for bookies, Colombia was seen by many including Pele as a pre-tournament favorite. They were in great form and had great players like Valderrama, Asprilla, Rincon and Adolfo Valencia who played for Bayern Munich. It really came as a surprise that they didn’t even survive group stage.
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The World Cup is usually for the big boys only. 90% of the dark horses end up failing. Serbia in 2010 were talked about a lot and even beat Germany in the group stage but screwed up qualification against Australia in the last match.


Colombia in '94 was a very popular case.

Spain before the Golden Generation when they truly became a powerhouse failed time and again.

Portugal in 2002 had a generation with Figo, Rui Costa, Fernando Couto, Sergio Conceicao, etc and were mentioned as a potential favorite because of their Euro 2000 run and lost in the group stage with Korea, USA and Poland.

Czechia in 2006 too although it was an ageing team and with tons of injuries.

Denmark in 2022 were horrible after their great run in Euro 2021.
 
spain brazil and france are top 3 favs in the upcoming world cup, england is in fourth place, of course argentina aint winning it again even though they are in fifth place, ahead of germany and holland
 
BauerAlmeida said:
The World Cup is usually for the big boys only. 90% of the dark horses end up failing. Serbia in 2010 were talked about a lot and even beat Germany in the group stage but screwed up qualification against Australia in the last match.


Colombia in '94 was a very popular case.

Spain before the Golden Generation when they truly became a powerhouse failed time and again.

Portugal in 2002 had a generation with Figo, Rui Costa, Fernando Couto, Sergio Conceicao, etc and were mentioned as a potential favorite because of their Euro 2000 run and lost in the group stage with Korea, USA and Poland.

Czechia in 2006 too although it was an ageing team and with tons of injuries.

Denmark in 2022 were horrible after their great run in Euro 2021.
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This is absolutely true. At EC we had at least Denmark in 92 Greece in 2004 and going further back UdSSR in 1960.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Spain before the Golden Generation when they truly became a powerhouse failed time and again.
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In 1998 for instance when they lost in the group stage. Belgium in the last few years also a good example and all the African teams like Nigeria in the 90s. France before the Zidane era was similar to Spain.
 
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