Would anyone of beaten Andre at the 2000 Australian Open?

Yeah, Agassi was real good that year...

It's a shame though that he started playing his best tennis quite late in his career. I think he could of won at least 3 more if the level of play was as high as it was during his later years.

Btw, that passing shot by Sampras was unreal.
 
Wow, Fed really is a lot better than Sampras was. He moves better. Although that might be partly due to Pete's injury.
 
I think Federer would have beaten Andre with the way he was playing in '04 or '07.

I thought Andre played much better in '95 than in 2000 at the AO. Sampras was the only one who was able to take a set from him that year. No one else was even able to take 10 games from Andre.
 
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Federer of 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009 Australian Opens would have had a shot.

Nadal of 2009 Australian Open would have a shot.

Courier of 1992 and 1993 Australian Opens woudl have a shot.

Safin of 2008 Austrlalian Open would have a shot.

Sampras of 1994 and 1997 Australian Opens would have a shot (he was better those years than 2000 and nearly won in 2000)

Verdasco of this years Australian Open would even have a shot.

Djokovic and Tsonga of the 2008 Australian Open would have a shot, but Tsonga probably not in the final.

While Agassi is a great player, especialy on rebound ace I dont believe he reaches a virtually 100% unbeatable level even at his best like Sampras on fast courts, Federer on non-clay courts, Nadal on clay. He could beat pretty much anyone at this best on rebound ace, but it is not like there arent guys who would have a shot to beat him also. He almost lost this particular match in 4 sets and Sampras is a great rebound ace player but certainly not the best ever, and Pete was injured too.
 
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JoshDragon said:
Wow, Fed really is a lot better than Sampras was. He moves better. Although that might be partly due to Pete's injury.
Click to expand...

Well it was 2000.. Yea Pete got injured here and was pretty much near the end of his career. Hardly Sampras' prime, But Andre was looking pretty unbeatable nonetheless
 
GameSampras said:
Looking back, Andre was just looking fantastic there. Is there any player in history that could have taken him out? Sampras was close but had was injured I believe during the match. How would Federer circa 07 AO of done, or Nadal 09 AO of done against Andre there?
Heres a clip of that great tiebreak between andre and pete in the semis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD8a-70RdTU&feature=related
Click to expand...

People who would have been heavy favorites vs. 2000 Aus Open Agassi:
1. 04 Federer
2. 05 Safin
3. 06 Federer
4. 07 Federer

People who would have been slight favorites:
1. 04 Safin
2. 05 Federer
3. 09 Nadal
4. 09 Federer
5. 94 Sampras
6. 92 Courier
7. 93 Courier
 
If Andre was unbeatable there he wouldnt have on the verge of losing in 4 sets to a fellow great on his 2nd worst surface with an injury. Agassi was unbeatable on rebound ace the remaining 2.2 Aussie Opens after that facing Kafelnikov, Rafter (who hardly did anything there but took Agassi to 5), Clement, Ferreria, and Schuettler but facing that kind of opposition Courier, McEnroe, Wilander, Nadal, Borg, Djokovic, Murray, Federer, Connors, Lendl would have all been unbeatable on rebound ace too.

To answer the question YES. All the guys I mentioned would have had a real shot of beating him, in addition to an in form Safin, an in form Edberg, and an on fire big hitter on occasion.
 
drwood said:
People who would have been heavy favorites vs. 2000 Aus Open Agassi:
1. 04 Federer
2. 05 Safin
3. 06 Federer
4. 07 Federer

People who would have been slight favorites:
1. 04 Safin
2. 05 Federer
3. 09 Nadal
4. 09 Federer
5. 94 Sampras
6. 92 Courier
7. 93 Courier
Click to expand...

I would add 97 Sampras as a slight favorite as well. Possibly 88 Wilander or 89 Lendl, though not as sure on them.
 
You don't even need to look at guys from other years like "2004 Federer" or "2009 Nadal"... A streaky big hitter from 2000 could have done the job. Although Safin and Philipoussis also fit the bill, I'm thinking of Thomas Enqvist in particular, who choked his way out of that tournament in the 1st round. He loved playing Andre on hard courts and had handed him a bagel in the deciding set just 3 months earlier, at the Stuttgart master series.

Three years later, after Agassi had won his last AO, crushing Schuettler in the final and looking unbeatable on hard courts, Enqvist was also the first one to beat him on that surface, in Scottsdale.
 
Sampras was injured in his loss to Agassi in the Semis that year, a fully healthy and on form Sampras may have beaten Agassi.
 
nfor304 said:
Sampras was injured in his loss to Agassi in the Semis that year, a fully healthy and on form Sampras may have beaten Agassi.
Click to expand...

I think that is a very good point. Not to take anything away from Agassi but it is interesting how people assume Agassi has the edge in a head to head matchup between he and Sampras on rebound ace with both at their peaks based on his 2 wins the two times they met there. Well truly 1995 and 2000 were the best of Agassi at the Australian Open ever. 1995 and 2000 were not the best of Sampras. Sampras was struggling the whole event in 95 with the emotions of his dieing coach, did extremely well to even make the final in the form and emotional state he was in. In 2000 he played at a very high level but did have a hip pointer injury which caused him to miss 5 weeks after, and which had Sampras admiting he might have even defaulted the final with Kafelnikov had he win (and wouldnt that ever drive home the point of how Kafelnikov is one of the luckiest multi slam winners ever, LOL) 1994 and 1997 were the best of Sampras at the Australian Open. I would actually give Sampras of 1994 and 1997 a great shot vs Agassi of 1995 and 2000. Also give how close he was to winning both finals it is easy to think under normal circumstances he would have won both.

Obviously Agassi will rate over Sampras as a rebound ace player based on his achievements and record, but I am not sure if his ultimate peak player there was really better than Pete's. The field Agassi won most of his rebound ace titles against from 2000-2003 was also nothing compared to the field Sampras primed at the Australian Open against from 1993-1997. I dont see Agassi dominating the Australian Open field during that period as easily as he did from 2000-2003.
 
thalivest said:
I think that is a very good point. Not to take anything away from Agassi but it is interesting how people assume Agassi has the edge in a head to head matchup between he and Sampras on rebound ace with both at their peaks based on his 2 wins the two times they met there. Well truly 1995 and 2000 were the best of Agassi at the Australian Open ever. 1995 and 2000 were not the best of Sampras. Sampras was struggling the whole event in 95 with the emotions of his dieing coach, did extremely well to even make the final in the form and emotional state he was in. In 2000 he played at a very high level but did have a hip pointer injury which caused him to miss 5 weeks after, and which had Sampras admiting he might have even defaulted the final with Kafelnikov had he win (and wouldnt that ever drive home the point of how Kafelnikov is one of the luckiest multi slam winners ever, LOL) 1994 and 1997 were the best of Sampras at the Australian Open. I would actually give Sampras of 1994 and 1997 a great shot vs Agassi of 1995 and 2000. Also give how close he was to winning both finals it is easy to think under normal circumstances he would have won both.

Obviously Agassi will rate over Sampras as a rebound ace player based on his achievements and record, but I am not sure if his ultimate peak player there was really better than Pete's. The field Agassi won most of his rebound ace titles against from 2000-2003 was also nothing compared to the field Sampras primed at the Australian Open against from 1993-1997. I dont see Agassi dominating the Australian Open field during that period as easily as he did from 2000-2003.
Click to expand...

generally disagree with the theme here....while i rate sampras a slightly beta
player...on the usual rebound ace 1988 - 1999 i take andre.

people are forgetting the ra was unusually fast that year...and i think that
helped pete hit some insane 38 aces in that match....

sampras had tougher draws in 94 and 97? I'm having a hard time defending the 97 draw against fed ****s. if top andre plays 1994 I think he wins...
although i agree his 2003 was even way weaker than pete's 97 draw.

people are forgetting andre also had to face an impressive yevgeny in final
too and scud in front of home crowd in 4th rd.....

so to answer....best of pete +fed 04-07 safin 05 definitely and 09 nadal...nadal is a bad matchup for andre i believe...courier great player but ..this is not the mentally mia andre of 90-93. but once again if
the surface is that fast...youd have to start giving guys like krajicek a shot.

also...the enqvist comment is interesting...would like to start a thread on him
 
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I think you have to be wary of using injuries to explain losses. Such is the nature of professional tennis now, nearly every player will be playing with some kind of injury, we just won't know about it.
 
Agassi was playing great on that tournament, but what many people don't remind is that Kafelnikov outplayed him during the beginning of that final. In fact, that was one of the most impressive sets I've ever seen. Agassi was playing close to his best, and Yevgeny made 5-0 in 15 minutes (he won the set 6-3). Everything Andre threw at him he sent it back faster and with better placement. But the russian just couldn't keep that impressive level, and then Agassi crushed him on the following sets. In the beginning of the second set they've made one of the most beautiful DH backhands rallies of the decade (and, in fact, their backhands were two of the best of tennis history). Agassi was awesome there in Australia, but wasn't in "unbeatable mode". He was more consistent than anyone else, but could lose to an inspired Tsonga, for instance.
 
GameSampras said:
Well it was 2000.. Yea Pete got injured here and was pretty much near the end of his career. Hardly Sampras' prime, But Andre was looking pretty unbeatable nonetheless
Click to expand...

Andre looked pretty good but Roger or Rafa still could have beaten him. Even an injured Sampras pushed Andre to five sets in that match.
 
thalivest said:
I think that is a very good point. Not to take anything away from Agassi but it is interesting how people assume Agassi has the edge in a head to head matchup between he and Sampras on rebound ace with both at their peaks based on his 2 wins the two times they met there. Well truly 1995 and 2000 were the best of Agassi at the Australian Open ever. 1995 and 2000 were not the best of Sampras. Sampras was struggling the whole event in 95 with the emotions of his dieing coach, did extremely well to even make the final in the form and emotional state he was in. In 2000 he played at a very high level but did have a hip pointer injury which caused him to miss 5 weeks after, and which had Sampras admiting he might have even defaulted the final with Kafelnikov had he win (and wouldnt that ever drive home the point of how Kafelnikov is one of the luckiest multi slam winners ever, LOL) 1994 and 1997 were the best of Sampras at the Australian Open. I would actually give Sampras of 1994 and 1997 a great shot vs Agassi of 1995 and 2000. Also give how close he was to winning both finals it is easy to think under normal circumstances he would have won both.

Obviously Agassi will rate over Sampras as a rebound ace player based on his achievements and record, but I am not sure if his ultimate peak player there was really better than Pete's. The field Agassi won most of his rebound ace titles against from 2000-2003 was also nothing compared to the field Sampras primed at the Australian Open against from 1993-1997. I dont see Agassi dominating the Australian Open field during that period as easily as he did from 2000-2003.
Click to expand...

(sniff sniff)
Poor little Petros....
(sniff sniff)
 
I think Nadal would have very little chance, about 20%, he'd definitely need Agassi to be "off". Otherwise Andre would run him silly. His game didn't match up all that well against a prime Agassi.

Federer is a tough call.....Agassi could still move well enough to defend better against Federer and dictate more. Federer is streaky, so that always hurt him against Agassi in the early days, when AA could pound his backhand and run him. Fed could still hit brilliant winners, but he actually HAD to, as he was consistent enough to hang with the young Agassi. I'll go 50-50 there.

The real person to beat Agassi that year was Ronald Agenor. If you know why, you really know tennis!!
 
The biggest threats to Agassi at the 2000 Australian Open would be:

Federer 2004-2007
Nadal 2009
Safin 2005
Courier 1992-1994
Lendl 1987-1991
Sampras 1994, 1997

I am not saying such player would beat him each of those years but those would be his biggest threats of anyone I can think of. I dont mention guys like Becker, Edberg, or Wilander since I think Agassi would be a bad matchup for those guys.

I actually think prime Nadal would be someone even prime Agassi wouldnt like playing all that match in a way. The reason I say that is Agassi played a sort of very agressive grinding style. He liked to dictate and run opponents but he didnt actually go for alot of winners. He forced his opponent into alot of unforced errors by his very agressive style of baseline play though. Against Nadal you have to go for alot of winners and hit alot more winners than him to beat him. Agassi would have to come out of his comfort zone a bit in that sense. Their match in 2005 was when neither player where close to their primes but one thing I did notice was Agassi went into desperation mode and was trying to pull the trigger and hit clean winners by the middle of the 2nd set more than he ever usually does. The way he likes to win matches wasnt working vs Nadal, and he already had to go out of his comfort zone. It won him the 2nd set but it was too much to keep up in the 3rd where he went down easily.

I think Enqvist in 1999 was capable of beating anyone before the finals or maybe the semis, where in typical Enqvist fashion he collapsed once he reached the final itself. He was playing some outstanding tennis at that event except for the final (in the semis he had a virtual walkover opponent though). Enqvist has been a tough opponent for Agassi at times so maybe add him to the list.
 
I would also like 07 Gonzo's chances against Agassi. In that particular tournament, Gonzo was really on fire and his run to the final was outstanding. His wins over Hewitt, Blake, Nadal and Haas were abusive. Bad luck for him, that he ran into imo one of the best Roger Federer's that we've ever witnessed.

Players I would give a big edge over Agassi (in this order):
1. Fed 07
2. Fed 04
3. Sampras 94
4. Safin 05

Small edge:
1. Sampras 97
2. Federer 06
3. Safin 04
4. Gonzo 07
5. Lendl late 80's

50/50
1. Nadal 09
2. Federer 09
3. Djokovic 08
4. Courier 92/93
 
Gonzo in 2007? I dont think he would beat Agassi. Agassi would work over Gonzo's weak backhand, attack his weak 2nd serve. Gonzo would hit some monster forehands, some big first serves, and other impressive shots but it wouldnt be enough.

Safin barely beat 34 year old Agassi in 2004, so I dont think he would have beaten Agassi of 1995 or 2000. Safin of 2005 might have, Safin of 2002 would even have a better shot before the finals than Safin of 2004. Safin of 2004 had a great run but he was coming off a long injury layoff and very low ranked, worked very hard to get in shape to make a run there.
 
As if Nadal and Haas hadn't tried. And Gonzo's second serve is definetely no weaker than Andre's. Just look what Gonzalez did with Hewitt, who does have am similar game as Agassi. Of course Hewitt was out of his prime, but that Gonzo was a beast.

You're probably right with Safin, the one from 02 was better than the one from 04.
 
grafselesfan said:
Gonzo in 2007? I dont think he would beat Agassi. Agassi would work over Gonzo's weak backhand, attack his weak 2nd serve. Gonzo would hit some monster forehands, some big first serves, and other impressive shots but it wouldnt be enough.

Safin barely beat 34 year old Agassi in 2004, so I dont think he would have beaten Agassi of 1995 or 2000. Safin of 2005 might have, Safin of 2002 would even have a better shot before the finals than Safin of 2004. Safin of 2004 had a great run but he was coming off a long injury layoff and very low ranked, worked very hard to get in shape to make a run there.
Click to expand...

Nadal tried that and got creamed in straights.
 
Rafter22 said:
I would also like 07 Gonzo's chances against Agassi. In that particular tournament, Gonzo was really on fire and his run to the final was outstanding. His wins over Hewitt, Blake, Nadal and Haas were abusive. Bad luck for him, that he ran into imo one of the best Roger Federer's that we've ever witnessed.

Players I would give a big edge over Agassi (in this order):
1. Fed 07
2. Fed 04
3. Sampras 94
4. Safin 05

Small edge:
1. Sampras 97
2. Federer 06
3. Safin 04
4. Gonzo 07
5. Lendl late 80's

50/50
1. Nadal 09
2. Federer 09
3. Djokovic 08
4. Courier 92/93
Click to expand...

Not a bad list! I would probably move everyone down 1 category. I don't think anyone would have more than a small edge.
 
Rafter22 said:
I would also like 07 Gonzo's chances against Agassi. In that particular tournament, Gonzo was really on fire and his run to the final was outstanding. His wins over Hewitt, Blake, Nadal and Haas were abusive. Bad luck for him, that he ran into imo one of the best Roger Federer's that we've ever witnessed.

Players I would give a big edge over Agassi (in this order):
1. Fed 07
2. Fed 04
3. Sampras 94
4. Safin 05

Small edge:
1. Sampras 97
2. Federer 06
3. Safin 04
4. Gonzo 07
5. Lendl late 80's

50/50
1. Nadal 09
2. Federer 09
3. Djokovic 08
4. Courier 92/93
Click to expand...

How could Safin of 05 make the "big edge" and Federer of 05 not even make the 50/50. Do you really think Safin played that much better than Federer there. Remember Federer had a match point on his own serve to win their semifinal in 4 sets, had 7 more winners, 1 fewer error, and I think won 15 more points. Federer at that event was playing every bit as well as Safin IMO. I wont say Safin was lucky to win since that isnt fair, but if Federer and Safin had played 5 times at that event I think Federer would have won 3 or 4 out of the 5 still. The Safin that played the final vs Hewitt would have lost to Federer in straight sets probably in fact. Federer of 05 deserves to be right up there with whatever Safin of 05 is. That Federer lost that incredibly close match to Safin he was so close to winning clouds peoples memories of how extremely well Federer was playing at that years Australian Open.

Federer at the 05 Australian Open was playing MUCH better than 06 Australian Open btw. He was even playing better in 2009 than 2006. That he won in 2006 and not in 2005 doesnt mean he was playing better in 2006. I would give Federer of the 2006 Australian Open a less than 50% chance vs Agassi of 1995 or 2000, and I think had Nadal been able to play his elusive hard court slam might have come there with Federer's sluggish form and how weak the 2nd week draw panned out. Federer struggled vs a weak draw of players in top form he might lose a set to 1 out of the 4 at most.
 
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You're right with the 06 Federer. That was hist "worst" GS-win, also considering the relatively weak overall draw. I should probably take him out of the list or at least rate him 50/50 against Agassi.

If i take a closer look at the 05 Fed-Safin issue, I gotta admit that it's quality is slightly overrated. Still, it is a classic one.

So probably:

Edge:
Fed 07
Fed 04
Sampras 94

Slight Edge:
Sampras 97
Safin 05
Gonzo 07
Lendl late 80's

50/50
Nadal 09
Fed 09
Djokovic 09
Courier 92/93
Safin 02 (sober, and without hot chicks in his box)

Btw, does anyone think that just from the quality of play Nadal 09 > Fed 09? To me, this final loss stands out as the one where Fed was the better player but couldn't get the job done. Just like some of his opponents did in a few sets in GS finals. He should have won it in 4 imo.

In consumption i would say that Andre is a bit of an overachiever at the AO. He never really was in an unbeatable mode and got some of his titles in the "between sampras and fed era".
 
Datacipher said:
He may be taking into account a more sophisticated comparison, eg. game matchup etc.
Click to expand...

Possibly, but I also dont see how Safin's game matches up better with Agassi than Federer. If anything Safin plays into Agassi's comfort zone with all those flat hard balls off virtually every shot, and his unwillingess to grind out many longer points or play defense nearly as well as Federer can. Also an old Agassi went 0-8 vs a prime Federer, but Federer (and Nadal who he only played twice) are the only top players of this generation that Agassi even in his twilights years and clearly past his prime didnt still have some success against. So I doubt Safin being a harder matchup for Agassi than Federer.

The main thing though was he had Federer at the 06 AO in the small edge group, and Federer's play at the 2006 AO was nowhere near 05, despite that he won in 2005 and didnt in 2006. In 2006 he got lucky with a cushy draw and Nadal's absence perhaps too, it was maybe his worst tennis in a non clay court slam since 2003, even slightly worse than 2008 AO and 2008 FO perhaps. Federer of 2005 or even 2009 would have completely ran roughshed over the draw he had in 2006, despite that facing an on fire Safin and his personal nemisis Nadal he just missed winning those two years.
 
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